David Grusch's DOPSR Cleared Statement and IG Complaint

[Slixton]

This is probably the best interview I've listened to with Leslie Kean:


Source: https://youtu.be/hjAyxA4sI1k


Ezra asks a lot of good questions that other interviewers haven't thought to, including several of interest to the folks here. One of these questions is regarding the pentagon clearing Grusch's statement for publication (essentially giving him the go-ahead to say what he wanted to say since it didn't violate national security or state secrets). Ezra correctly points out that that this is a very strange thing for the pentagon to do if what Grusch is revealing is actually true. If you want to publicly come out and tell the world about what essentially amounts to the biggest kept secret in the history of our nation, possibly even the world, the Pentagon isn't simply going to stamp off their approval and give you the go-ahead.

When she's asked about this, she grants that it's an interesting point and seems like she hadn't really thought about it much prior to this interview. She gives some possible reasons why the Pentagon might do so, some more plausible than others, but ultimately admits that she doesn't know and that it is an interesting question.

The DOPSA discussion starts around the 49 min mark.

Some of the possible explanations Kean and Ezra brought up to explain why the DOPSR would sign off on it:
-The facts were not true and therefore no secrets were being divulged.
-The facts are true but this was allowed to somehow muddy the water in a psy-op
-an inept clerk who didn't read it just passed it through (Kean made this point when she noted how there were multiple revisions of Grusch's DOPSR cleared statements, with one getting passed through by the next-day.)
-maybe DOPSR is too low level to know about this super secret agency

Kean states how Grusch's boldest claims were in the latest revision of the cleared statements, but she didn't specify which. If the Grusch file were made public, we could see specifically what DOPSR has deemed okay to publish.

 

[Amathia]

-maybe DOPSR is too low level to know about this super secret agency

I'm not sure that Grusch and company claim there's an agency but rather many compartmentalized programs and projects nested within other black projects. I take the analogy to be something like a top secret Russian nesting doll. For all we know whoever clears these types of statements for approval doesn't know about these programs any more than we do. Hell, even whoever their superior might be could be out of the loop. When things are this compartmentalized and secretive, would the person in charge of clearing these kinds of statements even know which agency to ask if what Grusch is saying violates any top secret info? Do they go to the army? CIA? Airforce? Do they ask all said agencies for comment all at once? Or is there a higher up who has knowledge of all top secret programs who the person can ask? (unlikely, obviously).

Suppose also that the pentagon decided to not clear the statements for publication. Would such a denial in effect serve as a stronger kind of confirmation of Grusch's claims than if they simply approve them?

Once we go down this rabbit hole there's no way to disentangle ourselves and climb back up.

I do find it interesting that Leslie seemed to have not considered the question until she was asked here.

On a slightly related note, she states several times just how many hours she spent talking to Grusch and how well she got to know him over the course of that time. I believe she mentioned something around 11 total hours talking to him? She's also stated several times that the claims about alien bodies were never brought up in her conversations with him. Those only came out in his interview with Ross Colthardt. That seems a bit incredible to me. After all the hours spent discussing these things with Grusch one on one, he never once brought up the subject of retrieved bodies? Even if Leslie didn't ask anything about bodies, surely it's something you'd bring up yourself at some point?

 

[Mendel]

On a slightly related note, she states several times just how many hours she spent talking to Grusch and how well she got to know him over the course of that time. I believe she mentioned something around 11 total hours talking to him? She's also stated several times that the claims about alien bodies were never brought up in her conversations with him. Those only came out in his interview with Ross Colthardt. That seems a bit incredible to me. After all the hours spent discussing these things with Grusch one on one, he never once brought up the subject of retrieved bodies? Even if Leslie didn't ask anything about bodies, surely it's something you'd bring up yourself at some point?

We know that Grusch believes second-hand information, so if he was recently shown something about alien bodies by someone he trusts, he'd talk about that.

Also, aren't you referring about the part of the conversation where Coulthard leads Grusch: as Grusch is talking about craft, Coulthard asks him about pilots, and Grusch then indicates that where there are craft, there must be pilots as well? So Grusch might've been led into that claim without additional evidence.

The point is, as with everything about Grusch, there's zero evidence, and that means we can't tell if it's based on information received or something he just made up on the spot: how would we know?

 

[Amathia]

We know that Grusch believes second-hand information, so if he was recently shown something about alien bodies by someone he trusts, he'd talk about that.

Also, aren't you referring about the part of the conversation where Coulthard leads Grusch: as Grusch is talking about craft, Coulthard asks him about pilots, and Grusch then indicates that where there are craft, there must be pilots as well? So Grusch might've been led into that claim without additional evidence.

The point is, as with everything about Grusch, there's zero evidence, and that means we can't tell if it's based on information received or something he just made up on the spot: how would we know?

Well obviously knowledge is too high a bar to set for anything regarding this topic given the absence of evidence beyond personal testimony.

My brand of skepticism though doesn't typically include assuming people like Grusch are just making things up on the spot during an interview. Unless someone has a track record of making shit up as they go (people like Donald Trump for instance), or a track record of fabricating evidence in other ways (Steven Greer) they deserve my charitability.

I suppose the reason he never mentioned bodies to Leslie Kean is that no one had approached him with information about them until after the article came out. The timing of that is a bit weird to me but I have no reason to rule it out.

What I'd like to know is who is telling Grusch this kind of information. According to him the information he's disclosed comes from several sources in the intelligence community, some of which he's known for a long time and trusts and presumably who have the kind of ranking and security clearances required to be "in the know" of such information if such programs actually exist. So they're people he generally knows, they have the right credentials and clearances, and they're people he respects and trusts enough to take them seriously.

In addition to his claims, we have people like Michael Shellenberger who has been asked in an interview by Michael Shermer if he has personally spoken to any individuals who claim that they themselves personally have seen these alleged bodies with their own eyes. His response to that was yes. (Minute 9:45)


Source: https://youtu.be/tPHETzCHtCg


Okay, now we have a fairly reputable journalist telling us he's spoken to individuals who presumably have the right kind of credentials who are telling him similar things to what Grusch is telling us. We have no idea who his sources are, but unless I want to uncharitably assume Schellenberger is a liar (which I don't) or that he doesn't know how to professionally vet his sources (which I also have no reason to assume since despite my political disagreements with him he obviously is a reputable journalist and knows what he's doing), then I have to take him at his word, that high ranking people are telling him the same kinds of things that they've been telling people like Leslie Kean and Ross Coulthart, and that presumably have been telling people like David Grusch.

The fact that he does state he's spoken to people who claim to be direct witnesses to these kinds of craft was at least enough to move the needle at least a little bit for Michael Shermer, as discussed in this latest video:


Source: https://youtu.be/9oEG6T7dmps


Obviously how much it moves the needle will be different for everyone, but it moves it for me at least a little bit.

In addition to that we have people like senator Marco Rubio also telling us the same thing, that high ranking, qualified individuals with the right kinds of credentials and work experience are telling him similar claims that he himself has taken seriously.

Then there's the language of the legislation drafted by Schumer that explicitly states in several sections that part of the motivation for the measures they're trying to enact is that credible witnesses and evidence has been presented to them that require action.

I think it's obvious and trivial to point out that we still don't have good enough evidence that should convince us that aliens of some sort are among us or exist or whatever. A claim like that has a very high bar of evidence that needs to be cleared before it can be believed (at least for us skeptical folks) that it has yet to clear. Until that evidence is presented, I'll be as agnostic about aliens as I am about any other extraordinary claim.

Having said that, I can't possibly be the only skeptic who can't help but ask themselves "what the fuck is going on then?"

Surely someone else here is also trying to figure out how to make sense of all this, no?

 

[MonkeeSage]

What I'd like to know is who is telling Grusch this kind of information. According to him the information he's disclosed comes from several sources in the intelligence community, some of which he's known for a long time and trusts and presumably who have the kind of ranking and security clearances required to be "in the know" of such information if such programs actually exist. So they're people he generally knows, they have the right credentials and clearances, and they're people he respects and trusts enough to take them seriously.

Grusch was seen at the SCU conference last year, and there are pics with him hanging out with George Knapp, Jay Stratton and Travis Taylor at another UFO conference. Eric Davis seemed to indicate he had a relationship with Grusch prior to the reveal as a whistleblower, which has lead to speculation that Davis and/or Hal Puthoff or other BAASS/NIDS folks are the source of some of his claims about crashed craft and NHI, since they themselves have made similar claims.

Davis mentions Grusch before reveal:
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/13swlvx/eric_davis_is_the_wapo_story_source/


Grusch at Roswell convention:
Source: https://twitter.com/MiddleOfMayhem/status/1675534520035217409


https://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/...suspiciously-close-ties-to-the-usual-suspects

Davis' classified DoE briefing about recovered "off-world vehicles not made on this earth": https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/23/us/politics/pentagon-ufo-harry-reid-navy.html

According to alleged leaked memos, at one point during the NIDS days Kit Green, Eric Davis and Hal Puthoff were telling Bigelow the (in)famous Santilli alien autopsy film was probably real because it matched a photo an anonymous pentagon official had shown Green, and the pentagon might have the body/tissue at Walter Reed AFIP.


Source: https://imgur.com/a/7D5xIGk


This is all of course circumstantial, but until sources are named all we can do is speculate.

Okay, now we have a fairly reputable journalist telling us he's spoken to individuals who presumably have the right kind of credentials who are telling him similar things to what Grusch is telling us. We have no idea who his sources are, but unless I want to uncharitably assume Schellenberger is a liar (which I don't) or that he doesn't know how to professionally vet his sources (which I also have no reason to assume since despite my political disagreements with him he obviously is a reputable journalist and knows what he's doing), then I have to take him at his word, that high ranking people are telling him the same kinds of things that they've been telling people like Leslie Kean and Ross Coulthart, and that presumably have been telling people like David Grusch.

I briefly noted about one of Schellenberger's articles in this thread, he quotes 3 other sources, but the statements from two of them sound like second-hand accounts with only one having claimed to have actually seen craft. He also mentions "Two of them have testified, including as recently as last year, to both AARO and Congress" so there maybe be overlap between his sources the the Usual Suspects above.

 

[MonkeeSage]

Then there's the language of the legislation drafted by Schumer that explicitly states in several sections that part of the motivation for the measures they're trying to enact is that credible witnesses and evidence has been presented to them that require action.

I would also just note that Schumer's press release makes several big caveats that have generally been left out of the reporting about his legislation (emphasis mine).

Article:

During his time in Congress, former Majority Leader Harry Reid sponsored a project to investigate incidents surrounding UAPs. After that project became public, Senators, Congressmen, committees, and staff began to pursue this issue and uncovered a vast web of individuals and groups with ideas and stories to share. While these stories have varying levels of credibility, the sheer number and variety has led some in Congress to believe that the Executive Branch was concealing important information regarding UAPs over broad periods of time. Congress recognizes that these records – if they exist – were likely concealed under the good faith goal of protecting national security. However, hiding that information from both Congress and the public at large is simply unacceptable. Our goal is to work cooperatively with the executive branch to responsibly disclose these documents and bring the topic into the public sphere in a process that the American people can trust.

Source: https://www.democrats.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/schumer-rounds-introduce-new-legislation-to-declassify-government-records-related-to-unidentified-anomalous-phenomena-and-ufos_modeled-after-jfk-assassination-records-collection-act--as-an-amendment-to-ndaa

 

[Amathia]

Grusch was seen at the SCU conference last year, and there are pics with him hanging out with George Knapp, Jay Stratton and Travis Taylor at another UFO conference. Eric Davis seemed to indicate he had a relationship with Grusch prior to the reveal as a whistleblower, which has lead to speculation that Davis and/or Hal Puthoff or other BAASS/NIDS folks are the source of some of his claims about crashed craft and NHI, since they themselves have made similar claims.

Davis mentions Grusch before reveal:
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/13swlvx/eric_davis_is_the_wapo_story_source/


Grusch at Roswell convention:
Source: https://twitter.com/MiddleOfMayhem/status/1675534520035217409


https://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/...suspiciously-close-ties-to-the-usual-suspects

Davis' classified DoE briefing about recovered "off-world vehicles not made on this earth": https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/23/us/politics/pentagon-ufo-harry-reid-navy.html

According to alleged leaked memos, at one point during the NIDS days Kit Green, Eric Davis and Hal Puthoff were telling Bigelow the (in)famous Santilli alien autopsy film was probably real because it matched a photo an anonymous pentagon official had shown Green, and the pentagon might have the body/tissue at Walter Reed AFIP.


Source: https://imgur.com/a/7D5xIGk


This is all of course circumstantial, but until sources are named all we can do is speculate.


I briefly noted about one of Schellenberger's articles in this thread, he quotes 3 other sources, but the statements from two of them sound like second-hand accounts with only one having claimed to have actually seen craft. He also mentions "Two of them have testified, including as recently as last year, to both AARO and Congress" so there maybe be overlap between his sources the the Usual Suspects above.

Thanks for this. These were all individually things I was aware of but it's nice to be able to have a post compiling them all for reference.

Granted that all we can do is speculate, is there a big picture kind of story you can weave together from the pieces you've laid out here? It can be frustrating sometimes to see tweets like Greenstreet's because the implication tends to be unspoken. For example, someone posts a picture with the caption "Here's a photo of David Grusch attending a UFO convention in 2022 hanging out with these well known folks in the Ufology circuit". There's an implication of some sort being made here but it's rarely ever spelled out.

Whats the meta narrative being painted here? Something along the lines of "Individuals like Hal Putthoff, Eric Davis, Travis Taylor, etc. are the ones who likely approached Grusch and told him about all sorts of fantastical claims that he then believed and which then served as the basis of his whistleblower allegations. The people who told him these things genuinely *believe* them to be true, but have never actually been in a position to *know* if what they're claiming is true. Grusch, on the other hand, assumes that what they're telling him is true and genuine because he assumes that what they're telling him are things they *know* about, but what he doesn't realize is that what they're telling him are their personal beliefs about what's going on, not necessarily things that they've learned as a direct result of their work in the government ".

Would something like that generally capture the gist of it?

 

[MonkeeSage]

Whats the meta narrative being painted here? Something along the lines of "Individuals like Hal Putthoff, Eric Davis, Travis Taylor, etc. are the ones who likely approached Grusch and told him about all sorts of fantastical claims that he then believed and which then served as the basis of his whistleblower allegations. The people who told him these things genuinely *believe* them to be true, but have never actually been in a position to *know* if what they're claiming is true. Grusch, on the other hand, assumes that what they're telling him is true and genuine because he assumes that what they're telling him are things they *know* about, but what he doesn't realize is that what they're telling him are their personal beliefs about what's going on, not necessarily things that they've learned as a direct result of their work in the government ".

I think that's the general gist, though I wouldn't personally assume Grusch is just going on faith and has not seen documents that might support some of the things he has claimed (even if the documents are questionable in themself -- like the Wilson-Davis memo), or that Davis et al do not have any kind of evidence for their beliefs. Personally I am reserving judgement until such evidence is presented and can be evaluated, and I take the same position as you stated.

I think it's obvious and trivial to point out that we still don't have good enough evidence that should convince us that aliens of some sort are among us or exist or whatever. A claim like that has a very high bar of evidence that needs to be cleared before it can be believed (at least for us skeptical folks) that it has yet to clear. Until that evidence is presented, I'll be as agnostic about aliens as I am about any other extraordinary claim.

 

[Ann K]

I wouldn't personally assume Grusch is just going on faith and has not seen documents that might support some of the things he has claimed

I'm concerned that if names of those who said anything to Grusch are made public, those individuals will either be in deep trouble for telling secrets, and/or they will deny everything, either truthfully or in the spirit of self-preservation. The results, either way, will be for the questions to remain unresolved, with the added factor of "they're trying to shut me up" conspiracy theories.

 

[Mendel]

There's a watershed in Grusch's biography, and that's December 2017, when he learned about UAPTF from Keane's NYT articles and sought it out. It seems clear that much of Grusch's present stance on "aliens"—wherever these travellers may come from—is influenced by the people he met subsequently, and the UFO lore he was exposed to. I don't need detective work and photos to know that, just knowing that Grusch was involved with UAPTF makes this clear.

If Grusch had contacts into that scene before 12/2017, that'd be a surprise, and I'd consider it a cover-up, but there's no evidence of it, so I assume he hadn't.

 

[Amathia]

There's a watershed in Grusch's biography, and that's December 2017, when he learned about UAPTF from Keane's NYT articles and sought it out. It seems clear that much of Grusch's present stance on "aliens"—wherever these travellers may come from—is influenced by the people he met subsequently, and the UFO lore he was exposed to. I don't need detective work and photos to know that, just knowing that Grusch was involved with UAPTF makes this clear.

If Grusch had contacts into that scene before 12/2017, that'd be a surprise, and I'd consider it a cover-up, but there's no evidence of it, so I assume he hadn't.

But this is consistent with his claims isn't it? During his time in the task force he asked about certain programs and was denied access to them even though he believed he should have considering his clearance level and his role in the task force.

While working in the task force he meets others folks inside the task force itself and outside of it in the general intelligence community who over time begin to "brief" him or tell him about the things he's come forward about. Some of them are the usual suspects, but clearly not all of them since the usual suspects aren't all intelligence community people.

Suppose it turns out his sources were just Travis Taylor, Lu Elizondo, & Hal Puttoff. Given their status as public figures and how public they've been with their beliefs, it wouldn't make sense to file a whistleblower complaint based on information obtained from people who are already in the public eye and information with has already made the rounds publicly. It makes sense to me that there are people who came to him in confidence who are not public figures but people who want to keep their heads down and remain out of the spotlight.

In the grand scheme of things, does it change anything if the information Grusch is talking about came to him after 2017 during his work in the task force rather than prior? Is there a reason why we should expect that information to have been available to him prior to that?

 

[Mendel]

But this is consistent with his claims isn't it?

Yes, that's the point.

Suppose it turns out his sources were just Travis Taylor, Lu Elizondo, & Hal Puttoff. Given their status as public figures and how public they've been with their beliefs, it wouldn't make sense to file a whistleblower complaint based on information obtained from people who are already in the public eye and information with has already made the rounds publicly. It makes sense to me that there are people who came to him in confidence who are not public figures but people who want to keep their heads down and remain out of the spotlight.

The problem I'm seeing is that we don't know which is which: what is based on public claims, and what is based on new, unknown sources?

Note also that Elizondo was no longer in a position to whistleblow on these. But Elizondo helped lobby for the legislation that made it possible for Grusch.

In the grand scheme of things, does it change anything if the information Grusch is talking about came to him after 2017 during his work in the task force rather than prior? Is there a reason why we should expect that information to have been available to him prior to that?

Not really, unless you want to theorize that this is all a conspiracy theory promulgated by Elizondo et. al, and Grusch was in it from the start. Finding something that connects Grusch to that scene before 12/2017 would invalidate his biographical story and cast serious doubt on his role. Finding a connection after that date isn't much of a revelation.

 

[Amathia]

Yes, that's the point.

The problem I'm seeing is that we don't know which is which: what is based on public claims, and what is based on new, unknown sources?

Note also that Elizondo was no longer in a position to whistleblow on these. But Elizondo helped lobby for the legislation that made it possible for Grusch.


Not really, unless you want to theorize that this is all a conspiracy theory promulgated by Elizondo et. al, and Grusch was in it from the start. Finding something that connects Grusch to that scene before 12/2017 would invalidate his biographical story and cast serious doubt on his role. Finding a connection after that date isn't much of a revelation.

Ah, that makes sense. I misread your original post as implying the opposite.

 

[NorCal Dave]

It can be frustrating sometimes to see tweets like Greenstreet's because the implication tends to be unspoken. For example, someone posts a picture with the caption "Here's a photo of David Grusch attending a UFO convention in 2022 hanging out with these well known folks in the Ufology circuit". There's an implication of some sort being made here but it's rarely ever spelled out.

Yes, they're not coming out and saying "Grusch heard everything from these guys", but the implication is clear. Grusch is at least hanging out with the Skinwalker Ranch crowd. And for Greenstreet, that just completed a 4-5 part take down of SWR and its bunk, that's problematic for his credibility.

Knapp is the Godfather of SWR. His hyping of some UFO/ghost stories about it got Bigelow to buy it and form NIDS to study the "phenomenon" at SWR which employs Davis, Green, Phutoff, Kelleher et al. Knapp then wrote Hunt for the Skinwalker about things NIDS supposedly investigated.

That book, in a roundabout way leads to DIA guy Lactski and Senator Reid forming AASWAP. A $22 million taxpayer funded rehash of NIDS, which includes Davis, Green, Phutoff, Kelleher and Jay Stratton running around SWR. In an effort to hide what they were doing somebody at AASWAP invents the new acronym AATIP.

Kean may have been some sort of investigative journalist way back when, but has long been into and advocating for UFOs, dating back at least to her relationship with Budd Hopkins of alien abduction fame:

On August 21, 2011, Hopkins died from complications of cancer.[3] At the time of his death, he was in a relationship with journalist Leslie Kean.[3][7][21]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_Hopkins

She gets wind of the largely non-existent AATIP, Elizondo and some Navy videos and we get the big NYT story of '17. What she knew about the non-UFO wierdsithology from SWR, she purposely left out of latter reporting. The NYT story gets everybody riled up and the UAPTF is created, headed by Jay Stratton of AASWAP and SWR. Likely because he had already been doing something similar in his spare time, possibly with Elizondo and possibly using the term AATIP for their little UFO club.

Stratton brings in TV scientist Travis Taylor who was appearing on Ancient Alien at the same time and maybe Davis, Phutoff and others from the NIDS AASWAP SWR days. Into this walks Grusch.

Knapp (again), along with Lacatski and Kelleher, then spill the beans about AASWAP with another book of wild ass stories about what happens at SWR, except this time the DoD was footing the bill.

Kean then "spends hours" talking to Grusch because he's telling her everything she wants to hear. She is an advocate, by her own admission. And if what he's telling her is from his days at UAPTF with Stratton and Taylor and others, it's likely SWR stuff. It's all the same pot of stew, directly or indirectly created by Geroge Knapp.

And now here's Grush hanging out with Knapp. So yes, there is a lot implied in that picture.

I think another level is, if Grusch wants to be taken seriously, hanging out with Knapp may be detrimental to that. While loved by the hardcore UFOlogy crowd, Knapp is either woefully credulous or a huckster. The 29 Palms UFO case is a prime example. Discussed, and thoroughly explained here:

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/twentynine-palms-camp-wilson-triangle-uap-flares.12967/

Knapp and Corbel's podcast, Weaponized still has episode #18 up claiming a "silent black triangle" floated over 29 Palms. It didn't.

 

[Amathia]

Yes, they're not coming out and saying "Grusch heard everything from these guys", but the implication is clear. Grusch is at least hanging out with the Skinwalker Ranch crowd. And for Greenstreet, that just completed a 4-5 part take down of SWR and its bunk, that's problematic for his credibility.

Knapp is the Godfather of SWR. His hyping of some UFO/ghost stories about it got Bigelow to buy it and form NIDS to study the "phenomenon" at SWR which employs Davis, Green, Phutoff, Kelleher et al. Knapp then wrote Hunt for the Skinwalker about things NIDS supposedly investigated.

That book, in a roundabout way leads to DIA guy Lactski and Senator Reid forming AASWAP. A $22 million taxpayer funded rehash of NIDS, which includes Davis, Green, Phutoff, Kelleher and Jay Stratton running around SWR. In an effort to hide what they were doing somebody at AASWAP invents the new acronym AATIP.

Kean may have been some sort of investigative journalist way back when, but has long been into and advocating for UFOs, dating back at least to her relationship with Budd Hopkins of alien abduction fame:

On August 21, 2011, Hopkins died from complications of cancer.[3] At the time of his death, he was in a relationship with journalist Leslie Kean.[3][7][21]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_Hopkins

She gets wind of the largely non-existent AATIP, Elizondo and some Navy videos and we get the big NYT story of '17. What she knew about the non-UFO wierdsithology from SWR, she purposely left out of latter reporting. The NYT story gets everybody riled up and the UAPTF is created, headed by Jay Stratton of AASWAP and SWR. Likely because he had already been doing something similar in his spare time, possibly with Elizondo and possibly using the term AATIP for their little UFO club.

Stratton brings in TV scientist Travis Taylor who was appearing on Ancient Alien at the same time and maybe Davis, Phutoff and others from the NIDS AASWAP SWR days. Into this walks Grusch.

Knapp (again), along with Lacatski and Kelleher, then spill the beans about AASWAP with another book of wild ass stories about what happens at SWR, except this time the DoD was footing the bill.

Kean then "spends hours" talking to Grusch because he's telling her everything she wants to hear. She is an advocate, by her own admission. And if what he's telling her is from his days at UAPTF with Stratton and Taylor and others, it's likely SWR stuff. It's all the same pot of stew, directly or indirectly created by Geroge Knapp.

And now here's Grush hanging out with Knapp. So yes, there is a lot implied in that picture.

I think another level is, if Grusch wants to be taken seriously, hanging out with Knapp may be detrimental to that. While loved by the hardcore UFOlogy crowd, Knapp is either woefully credulous or a huckster. The 29 Palms UFO case is a prime example. Discussed, and thoroughly explained here:

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/twentynine-palms-camp-wilson-triangle-uap-flares.12967/

Knapp and Corbel's podcast, Weaponized still has episode #18 up claiming a "silent black triangle" floated over 29 Palms. It didn't.

When we throw in Bob Lazar to the list of things George Knapp has directly or indirectly been involved in promoting it's hard to know what the hell modern Ufology would look like without him. Your recap here just helped me realize the extent to which Knapp has influenced and shaped many of the "greatest hits" in UFO lore.

I also had no idea Leslie Kean was in a relationship with Budd Hopkins at the time of his death. I just recently started diving into the work of John Mack regarding abduction cases and learned that it was Budd Hopkins who introduced him to the phenomenon and sparked his interest in pursuing it.

What a wild thing to learn that Kean was in a relationship with him. And of course Kean's co-author of the 2017 and Grusch piece, Blumenthal just released a book about the life and work of John Mack. That community is so much smaller and influential than I thought.

 

[LilWabbit]

That community is so much smaller and influential than I thought.

Indeed, and it's plausible Bob Lazar is the same source mentioned in Kean's article as having worked on these secret recovery programs, seen the crafts and seen the bodies, from whom not only Grusch but also Michael Schellenberger has been hearing stuff.

It takes just one Bob to share his 'experiences' directly to 20 other Toms, Dicks and Harrys to have 20 people claiming to have heard from a direct witness to an alien body. This would in turn make it it seem as if there are at least 20 direct witnesses speaking to 20 Toms, Dicks and Harrys instead of just one good ol' Lazar.

 

[NorCal Dave]

That community is so much smaller and influential than I thought.

Indeed! And very self-referencing. As an example, in Knapp's book Skinwalkers at the Pentagon there is a section on remote viewing. Yes, the supposed AATIP UFO program that was really AASWAP was using taxpayer money to study remote viewing. In that section he tells his readers how lucky the AASWAP guys had one of the worlds foremost authorities on remote viewing at their disposal, non-other than Hal Puthoff.

The same Hal Puthoff that was using CIA money to study remote viewing in the '70s at the SRI:

In 1972, physicists Harold E. Puthoff and Russell Targ undertook a series of investigations of psychic phenomena sponsored by the CIA, for which they coined the term remote viewing.[58][59][60][unreliable source?] Among other activities, the project encompassed the work of consulting "consciousness researchers" including artist/writer Ingo Swann, military intelligence officer Joseph McMoneagle, and psychic/illusionist Uri Geller.[61] This ESP work continued with funding from the US intelligence community until Puthoff and Targ left SRI in the mid-1980s.[62][63]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRI_International

Note Joseph McMoneagle, that's the same remote viewer Puthoff brought to AASWAP almost 40 years later. As for other successes at SRI with Puthoff (bold by me):

New York artist Ingo Swann met with Puthoff and Targ in 1972 and participated in their remote viewing experiments.[10] In June of that same year, Puthoff and Targ took Swann to a large magnetometer to see what changes Swann could make in the readouts of the machine. While the readouts did show some fluctuations, there was no evidence that this was due to any efforts on the part of Swann.[11] Nevertheless, Puthoff and Targ announced to a gathering in Geneva, Switzerland that they had indeed definitively established psychokinesis as a real phenomenon.[12] The builder of the machine, who had been present during Swann's visit, would later report that while there had been fluctuations these were in no way unexpected or outside the normal parameters.[13]

Then there was the spoon bender:

Uri Geller began work with SRI in the early 1970s and was the primary focus of Puthoff and Targ's 1974 article in the journal Nature.

Far from endorsing the conclusions reached by the SRI researchers, the editor stated plainly in a lengthy opinion piece that ran at the beginning of the publishing issue: "Publishing in a scientific journal is not a process of receiving a seal of approval from the establishment".[21][22] The editor then enumerated the objections against publication voiced by the referees. These objections included references to the lack of substantive evidence, problematic data collection, weak statistical calculations and relationships, and many others.[21][22]

The paper was problematic even among Puthoff and Targ's colleagues at SRI. Two other scientists also worked on tests that involved Geller and other remote viewing subjects.

Rebert and Otis went so far as to document their objections to what they termed as "fraudulent and slipshod" work and to demand that any experiments they had been involved in be stricken from the paper before publication.[23][24]

And briefly:

The descriptions of a large number of psychic studies and their results were published in March 1976, in the journal Proceedings of the IEEE.[32] Together with the earlier papers, this provoked intense scrutiny in the mainstream scientific literature.

A lengthy exchange ensued, with the external researchers finally concluding that the failure of Puthoff and Targ to address their concerns meant that the claim of remote viewing "can no longer be regarded as falling within the scientific domain".[35][36]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parapsychology_research_at_SRI

After all that, Puthoff went on to work at Bigelow's NIDS program at SWR in the '90s and then AAWSAP in the mid '00s. He also founded Earth Tech:

The Institute for Advanced Studies at Austin was founded in 1985 by Harold Puthoff, PhD, and later incorporated under EarthTech International, Inc., in 1991 as an innovative research facility with a high‐powered creative staff dedicated to exploring the forefront reaches of science and engineering. Our research interests include theories of spacetime, gravity and cosmology; studies of the quantum vacuum; modifications of standard theories of electrodynamics; interstellar flight science; and the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence, specifically as these topics may apply to developing innovative space propulsion and sources of energy. We strive to translate these ideas into laboratory experiments.

https://earthtech.org/about/

The "Principal Team" page for EarthTech lists Hal Puthoff, Collon and Brendon Puthoff (his kids?) and of course SWR alum Eric Davis. https://earthtech.org/team/

It goes round and round.

 

[tintintintin]

On what is going on

In addition to that we have people like senator Marco Rubio also telling us the same thing, that high ranking, qualified individuals with the right kinds of credentials and work experience are telling him similar claims that he himself has taken seriously.

Then there's the language of the legislation drafted by Schumer that explicitly states in several sections that part of the motivation for the measures they're trying to enact is that credible witnesses and evidence has been presented to them that require action.

I think it's obvious and trivial to point out that we still don't have good enough evidence that should convince us that aliens of some sort are among us or exist or whatever. A claim like that has a very high bar of evidence that needs to be cleared before it can be believed (at least for us skeptical folks) that it has yet to clear. Until that evidence is presented, I'll be as agnostic about aliens as I am about any other extraordinary claim.

Having said that, I can't possibly be the only skeptic who can't help but ask themselves "what the fuck is going on then?"

Surely someone else here is also trying to figure out how to make sense of all this, no?

@AR318307 : I'm trying to make sense of this as well. Rubio was asked on Hannity whether there was any truth to the recent UFO articles and replied:

Senator Marco Rubio on FOX news.
I don't know

We have people that have very high clearances who did really important work for the government, or continue to do important work for the government, who have come forward with some claims, about the US having in the past recovered exotic materials and then we reverse-engineered those materials to make advances in our own defences and technologies. Thats the claims they make.

Now, I don't know if those claims are true or not. What I do know is that one of two things is happening here.

Either they're telling the truth and that is something that obviously would be the biggest story in human history, or we have people in really important positions of government who are crazy. And who are out there making up stories, and who are still in positions of importance. Either one is a big problem.

So we've got to figure out which one of these two it is. Because uh, the second one in particular would be very troubling, but we don't know.
All we know is claims that people have made, these are credible people that have done, and continue to do, important work for the country.

And by law we're required when they come forward as whistleblowers to take their claims seriously and to investigate but we just don't know. That's the answer

So some whistleblowers (not necessarily Grusch) have made claims about reverse engineering exotic materials, and some still work for the government (definitely not Grusch). And there are multiple whistleblowers holding high positions with very high clearances (up for interpretation).

Rubio mentioning exotic materials and whistleblowers is consistent with Grusch, though not conclusive. I speculate that each whistleblower has gone through an IG (as claimed by Grusch that he did), and that their information wouldn't reach Rubio/Congress unless the IG found it credible and urgent.

On interaction with the ICDoD and the ICIG

That Grusch is Elizondo Part 2 (@LilWabbit) is not adding up with Compass Rose press release

Compass Rose who represented David Grusch
The ICIG found Mr. Grusch's assertion that information was inappropriately concealed from Congress to be urgent and credible in response to the filed disclosure. Compass Rose brought this matter to the ICIG's attention through lawful channels and successfully defended Mr. Grusch against retaliation.

And it'd be one hell of a coincidence, if the whistleblowers Rubio were confirming the existence of didn't include Grusch given the overlap in stories. From that I find this proposition by @LilWabbit and the hypothetical by @Mendel implausible:

@LilWabbit
(5) To repeat what @Mendel wrote in post #7 and @Mick West in post #29, the IC IG Monheim's office, and further possible formal proceedings, seem to be legally only concerned with whether or not security clearances have been withheld from Grusch illegitimately and in reprisal. Not with whether or not the DoD is illegitimately withholding evidence for aliens.
[...]
Yet the only reprisal and retaliation that's occurring and unfolding before us is actually on Grusch's side against the DoD. Which makes this whole case Elizondo Part 2.

I'm going to be very hypothetical in this post, but since we've seen all of the "concerned citizen" hypotheticals, let me give you the "unconcerned noncitizen" hypothetical.

Hypothetically, David Grusch complained to the DoD IG that the DoD is retrieving and analysing UFOs, and not telling Congress or UAPTF about it. Hypothetically, the DoD IG knows that these claims are batshit insane false, but also notices that Grusch used his access to snoop through files that were not related to his assigned tasks, but rather in pursuit of his UFO theories. Hypothetically, the DoD IG deems this a security risk, and suggests to the elements concerned to review whether Grusch still needs that access. Grusch then thinks this is retaliation, and contacts a good lawyer. The lawyer recognizes that retaliation via clearances is an interesting legal issue, takes Grusch's case, and files the complaint. Avril Haines concurs and immediately puts safeguards in place that protect intelligence workers against losing their clearances undeservedly. Hypothetically, the IG IC / the independent panel has words with Grusch, and they tell him that if he doesn't quit the service on his own, they're going to charge him with security violations and fire him, because he's been abusing his clearances to pursue his batshit insane outlandish theories.

And hypothetically, the people who are cleared to know the details of this story, including Congress's intelligence committee members, are just as unconcerned as I am. (Well, that's not wholly hypothetical. I've quoted their statements above, they're unconcerned.)

On the legislation being put forth

I would also just note that Schumer's press release makes several big caveats that have generally been left out of the reporting about his legislation (emphasis mine).

Article: During his time in Congress, former Majority Leader Harry Reid sponsored a project to investigate incidents surrounding UAPs. After that project became public, Senators, Congressmen, committees, and staff began to pursue this issue and uncovered a vast web of individuals and groups with ideas and stories to share. While these stories have varying levels of credibility, the sheer number and variety has led some in Congress to believe that the Executive Branch was concealing important information regarding UAPs over broad periods of time. Congress recognizes that these records – if they exist – were likely concealed under the good faith goal of protecting national security. However, hiding that information from both Congress and the public at large is simply unacceptable. Our goal is to work cooperatively with the executive branch to responsibly disclose these documents and bring the topic into the public sphere in a process that the American people can trust. Source: https://www.democrats.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/schumer-rounds-introduce-new-legislation-to-declassify-government-records-related-to-unidentified-anomalous-phenomena-and-ufos_modeled-after-jfk-assassination-records-collection-act--as-an-amendment-to-ndaa

To @MonkeeSage's point on the Schumer bill the "UAP Disclosure Act of 2023", I fully agree the varying levels of credibility and background are not reported. But I'm also finding that the actual content of that legislation isn't reported, using it's kinship to the President John F. Kennedy Assassination Records Collection Act of 1992.

Some spectacular things I find are

UAP Disclosure Act of 2023 (Schumer's bill)

1. Legislation is necessary because credible evidence and testimony indicates that Federal Government unidentified anomalous phenomena records exist that have not been declassified or subject to mandatory declassification review
2. [Multiple subsections] A UAP Record is any record or material related to UAPs/UFOs/USOs/Flying Saucer/Flying Disc, Biological evidence for non-human intelligence, Legacy program, Meta-materials, Technologies of unknown origin - and more - in possession or control or [Congress/Agencies/Private Entity], including via contract or other agreement.
3. The Federal Government exercise eminent domain over any and all recovered technologies of unknown origin and biological evidence of non-human intelligence that may be controlled by private persons or entities in the interests of the public good

So as @MonkeeSage points out there are big caveats, and even if nothing conclusive comes from this, the conspiracy theories won't go away vis-a-vis the JFK act.

I don't see this legislation happening without whistleblowers like Grusch being believed, and politicians believing it's good for them electorally to enact laws based off of it. Cosponsoring Schumer's bill were Rounds, Rubio, Heinrich, Gillibrand, Young, so it's bipartisan, suggesting these whistleblowers are not easily dismissed.

Also the Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2024 would prohibit spending on "legacy program" and require that all IGs add Security Officers to guide whistleblowers. I take this second piece of legislation as further evidence that there has been damning testimony that's been believed.

On Grusch is fed bad information by usual UFO firebrands

Until we know he was engaging with that crowd prior to 2021, I don't think it holds up as a line of attack. It is fully consistent that an individual, who has come to believe in UFOs and is shunned by military (according to Grusch) for that exact reason, would seek out UFO enthusiasts in the year 2021. Who else could he discuss this massive (to him) revelation with?
In scanning this thread, I didn't find evidence to suggest Grusch was engaged with UFO community prior to 2021. If he's been mixed in with that crowd, and in particular in a way that contradicts the DOPSR cleared document, it would be a severe blow to his credibility and integrity in my book.

There is still more to learn about Grusch. As has been pointed out, FOIA will help us with ICDoD and ICIG interviews and DOPSR overnight process lacks an explanation.

On what's rational as of July 22nd 2023

We should decipher what's going on by looking at the people with most knowledge about the matter. That would be the politicians, in particular in oversight roles, who've received testimony and corresponded with agencies. All else being equal, they act so as to get re-elected, and so must be of the belief that going on the media and legislative record is electorally beneficial. That also happens to be the indirect validation of Grusch that we'll get for some time.

We could be smarter than them and the entirety of their staff, but we're certainly less informed on these very high clearances matters. So is it really rational to think, they've all been duped?

 

[tobigtofool]

It takes just one Bob to share his 'experiences' directly to 20 other Toms, Dicks and Harrys to have 20 people claiming to have heard from a direct witness to an alien body. This would in turn make it it seem as if there are at least 20 direct witnesses speaking to 20 Toms, Dicks and Harrys instead of just one good ol' Lazar.

It's a little hard for me to believe that people in these positions are as easily fooled as any tom dick and harry.

But if they are, then we need someone to audit the whole damn thing tbh. If a nasa operator came to my work and said aliens were real, everyone at my office would be like, "lol what a crack pot" ... in the pentagon their knee jerk is to believe anything?

Is Grusch, not a trusted intelligence operator? Have we been mislead, and he's really just some yokle that is pretending he is?

This is a serious question. I assumed he managed to pass through enough intense security interviews to have his word mean a little bit more than a bunch of random peoples?

Is it wrong of me to have trust in an intelligence officer until we've proven he is wrong? Is Grusch not an officer of that caliber and I am just mislead?

 

[Ann K]

This is a serious question. I assumed he managed to pass through enough intense security interviews to have his word mean a little bit more than a bunch of random peoples?

Is it wrong of me to have trust in an intelligence officer until we've proven he is wrong? Is Grusch not an officer of that caliber and I am just mislead?

We are faced with people with security clearances (say, of the level that Grusch had before he left and before they made any changes in his status) who say one thing, and people with similar or higher clearances who say another. It seems you've chosen which you want to believe, so by necessity you mistrust the others. That's a conundrum, and it's a tacit admission that you have "selective trust". That is the reason that examining the evidence for the claims is key to resolving this, not the level of trust that you've placed in an individual.

We all know that people can lie, exaggerate, misremember, misinterpret, or simply be wrong when they have trusted the info which came from another person, and every individual in that chain also has the potential to be wrong. The more people in the chain, the more potential for a wrong conclusion to be reached. Grusch tells us things that he got secondhand, or (since he hasn't revealed his sources) perhaps third hand or worse. We have to look at the facts with a critical eye no matter who is telling us.

It isn't that simple, of course. It's complicated by his association with others who have a track record of calling everything an alien craft even long after it's been debunked. Not everyone is as scrupulous and as skeptical at investigating phenomena, and if we find out that those known individuals are the ones who spoke with Grusch, that itself raises a major red flag.

 

[tobigtofool]

It seems you've chosen which you want to believe, so by necessity you mistrust the others. That's a conundrum, and it's a tacit admission that you have "selective trust". That is the reason that examining the evidence for the claims is key to resolving this, not the level of trust that you've placed in an individual.

I dont want to believe.
I just expect when a lawyer tells me something they didn't just make it up, nor would I expect an intelligence officer to do the same.

F me for having a modicum of respect for our military intelligence analysts.

I asked "can our military intelligence analysts not be trusted?"

And your response is "Sounds like you want to believe" how insulting and rude and judgmental can you be.

 

[Amathia]

I dont want to believe. Gtfo with that judgey shit, you're so far off the mark.

I just expect when a lawyer testifies in court, they are not lying.

F me for having a modicum of respect for our military intelligence analysts.

I asked "can our military intelligence analysts not be trusted?"

And your response is "Sounds like you want to believe" how insulting and rude and judgmental can you be.

The options are not just "telling the truth" vs "lying". There's an obvious third option: "telling us what they believe to be the truth, even though they're mistaken".

Suppose my relative had told me "We have the ability to store terabytes and terabytes of data in a simple container full of water". Suppose he believes that because of what he heard someone from Lockheed Martin say in a class he attended. He may remember the representative from Lockheed saying that the ability to store information in water is currently possible and available, and so having believed that person, he relayed that information to me as if is a fact.

He wouldn't be lying to me. He'd simply be relaying something to me that he heard from someone he deemed to be trustworthy that he believes is true.

For all I know the Lockheed person was simply talking about speculative theories of how data could potentially be stored in water in the future and my relative simply misrembered what he said as "this is currently possible" vs "this is theoretically possible".

A simple common error of memory, coupled with his trust in the source of the information, would lead to him telling me something that he believes is true but which is (to my understanding) not physically possible. He didn't lie to me. He just relayed information to me that was false due to his misplaced trust in someone coupled with a faulty memory.

Given that Grusch himself hasn't seen any of the things he's claiming and admits to only knowing about them based on what he's been told, it's very likely something similar explains what's going on with him.

 

[JMartJr]

Is Grusch, not a trusted intelligence operator? Have we been mislead, and he's really just some yokle that is pretending he is?

He's a human being. Like the rest off us, he can follow a white rabbit down that old rabbit hole. This is not only something that happens to "yokels" or dumb people, it can happen to any of us.

 

[NorCal Dave]

I asked "can our military intelligence analysts not be trusted?"

It depends.

As JMartJr pointed out above, intelligence analysts are human like the rest of us.

Dr. James Lacatski of the Department of Defense's (DoD) Defense Intelligence Agency's (DIA) Defense Warning Office (DWA), a literal rocket scientist, read a book about Skinwalker Ranch (SWR) and seems to have believed it to the point that he went there and had an experience.

He ended up creating AASWAP, the government funded program to study weird stuff at SWR, including 7' tall werewolves and ghosts along with UFOs. AASWAP employed SWR guys like Hal Puthoff, Eric Davis and Naval Intelligence Officer and fellow DIA guy Jay Stratton. Stratton is a SWR guy.

Jay Stratton went on to run the UAPTF where he hired Ancient Aliens regular Travis Taylor as Chief Scientist. Travis Taylor is a SWR guy. Stratton's UAPTF is where Grusch worked on UAPs and heard the stories of crashed saucers and alien bodies.

Is this a failure of our intelligence system? I don't know. Ultimately our intelligence community is made up of members of our society, so there are going to be people that believe weird things. If a member of our intelligence community is tasked with understanding the war in Ukraine and is good at it, does the fact he believes in Bigfoot really matter?

The problem arises when members of the intelligence community are tasked with understanding UFO/UAPs, when they already believe in aliens and 7' tall werewolves.

AASWAP and werewolves discussed here:

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/the-origins-of-aawsap.12484/

 

[tobigtofool]

He's a human being. Like the rest off us, he can follow a white rabbit down that old rabbit hole. This is not only something that happens to "yokels" or dumb people, it can happen to any of us.

I disagree!

If a judge thinks that people are cursed by ghosts and that's why they do crime, then they are going to be a bad judge, sorry!

It depends.

As JMartJr pointed out above, intelligence analysts are human like the rest of us.

Dr. James Lacatski of the Department of Defense's (DoD) Defense Intelligence Agency's (DIA) Defense Warning Office (DWA), a literal rocket scientist, read a book about Skinwalker Ranch (SWR) and seems to have believed it to the point that he went there and had an experience.

He ended up creating AASWAP, the government funded program to study weird stuff at SWR, including 7' tall werewolves and ghosts along with UFOs. AASWAP employed SWR guys like Hal Puthoff, Eric Davis and Naval Intelligence Officer and fellow DIA guy Jay Stratton. Stratton is a SWR guy.

Jay Stratton went on to run the UAPTF where he hired Ancient Aliens regular Travis Taylor as Chief Scientist. Travis Taylor is a SWR guy. Stratton's UAPTF is where Grusch worked on UAPs and heard the stories of crashed saucers and alien bodies.

Is this a failure of our intelligence system? I don't know. Ultimately our intelligence community is made up of members of our society, so there are going to be people that believe weird things. If a member of our intelligence community is tasked with understanding the war in Ukraine and is good at it, does the fact he believes in Bigfoot really matter?

The problem arises when members of the intelligence community are tasked with understanding UFO/UAPs, when they already believe in aliens and 7' tall werewolves.

AASWAP and werewolves discussed here:

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/the-origins-of-aawsap.12484/

I think it's extremely shocking that anyone in the intelligence community can be swayed by hearsay.

I just don't see how you can gather intelligence if when you are observing reality you think maybe werewolves are real.

Let alone, Grusch's case, you "heard a guy say something" and so you're gonna go reach out to the press to tell them? What kind of an operation is it we're running here?!

That scares me more than if werewolves were real.

 

[tobigtofool]

Given that Grusch himself hasn't seen any of the things he's claiming and admits to only knowing about them based on what he's been told, it's very likely something similar explains what's going on with him.

This is exactly my point.

All he has is hearsay? That's what our intelligence operators are basing their decisions on?

Shouldn't he be extremely good at collecting intelligence?

This is super interesting, from another thread I was linked this article on the % of Americans that believe in conspiracy theories:

https://www.livescience.com/56479-americans-believe-conspiracy-theories.html

People who believe conspiracy theories tended to be more pessimistic, less trusting of people they know, and more likely to do things like buying a gun out of fear, the survey results indicated.

So there you go, there's a legitimate argument for agencies needing to weed out people capable of believing this stuff, and for me to be deeply concerned that I just found out the intelligence operators we have do.

 

[Landru]

Tobigtofool is banned for one week for numerous impolite posts.

 

[Tezcatlipoca]

It depends.

As JMartJr pointed out above, intelligence analysts are human like the rest of us.

Dr. James Lacatski of the Department of Defense's (DoD) Defense Intelligence Agency's (DIA) Defense Warning Office (DWA), a literal rocket scientist, read a book about Skinwalker Ranch (SWR) and seems to have believed it to the point that he went there and had an experience.

He ended up creating AASWAP, the government funded program to study weird stuff at SWR, including 7' tall werewolves and ghosts along with UFOs. AASWAP employed SWR guys like Hal Puthoff, Eric Davis and Naval Intelligence Officer and fellow DIA guy Jay Stratton. Stratton is a SWR guy.

Jay Stratton went on to run the UAPTF where he hired Ancient Aliens regular Travis Taylor as Chief Scientist. Travis Taylor is a SWR guy. Stratton's UAPTF is where Grusch worked on UAPs and heard the stories of crashed saucers and alien bodies.

Is this a failure of our intelligence system? I don't know. Ultimately our intelligence community is made up of members of our society, so there are going to be people that believe weird things. If a member of our intelligence community is tasked with understanding the war in Ukraine and is good at it, does the fact he believes in Bigfoot really matter?

The problem arises when members of the intelligence community are tasked with understanding UFO/UAPs, when they already believe in aliens and 7' tall werewolves.

AASWAP and werewolves discussed here:

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/the-origins-of-aawsap.12484/

Yeah I wouldn't strike these up as "intelligence failures" or something of similar sort. JMart and yourself stated something we largely tend to forget in larger society, in that, they are just normal humans.

A lot of the things that lead us into these beliefs rest in subconscious processes. When you're working in analysis like Grusch was, you're not taught to become a superhuman, you're taught ways you can recognize this happening and ways you can self-combat it. It is not an end all, it just provides tools that can help recognize it. Sometimes that "extra" in terms of thought can be degrading, sometimes it can be helpful too.

In re your point about "believes in Bigfoot really matter?" and the answer is largely no but it depends on the extent. With some of these UAP types, they would most definitely be across the line as you referenced.

We see similar when it comes to CI itself, most of the top rate people end up getting shuffled around even because over greater periods of time you can fall into more disruptive thought patterns. Spending too long or with too little tools though you end up in a situation like Angleton where everything conditions to becoming smoke and mirrors. Linking an article here that dives into some of the realities about Angletons career, because contrary to a lot of writing, Angleton was actually a very brilliant individual and some of the issues we saw with him did not happen till later in his career. Not sure if anyone would like to discuss it, but I find that specific example very interesting because we see some similarities between Angleton and quite a good chunk of the former govt folks coming to speak out.
It also touches on the "why" which we tend to package in ways that aren't very agreeable amongst some folk. For example a great one to touch on are these individuals attending sci-fi conferences, etc, just saying that alone won't resonate very well since there's plenty who go and *dont* come away believing X Y or Z, although if reasoned more in depth is a very powerful example.

https://www.cia.gov/static/Cunning-Passages-Contrived-Corridors.pdf

 

[Mendel]

We see similar when it comes to CI itself, most of the top rate people end up getting shuffled around even because over greater periods of time you can fall into more disruptive thought patterns. Spending too long or with too little tools though you end up in a situation like Angleton where everything conditions to becoming smoke and mirrors. Linking an article here that dives into some of the realities about Angletons career, because contrary to a lot of writing, Angleton was actually a very brilliant individual and some of the issues we saw with him did not happen till later in his career. Not sure if anyone would like to discuss it, but I find that specific example very interesting because we see some similarities between Angleton and quite a good chunk of the former govt folks coming to speak out.

https://www.cia.gov/static/Cunning-Passages-Contrived-Corridors.pdf

Metabunk is different from other forums in that you can't just drop links (otherwise we'd drown in links from conspiracy theorists). See the link policy in the "Info" section of the site for more details.

 

[Mendel]

Let alone, Grusch's case, you "heard a guy say something" and so you're gonna go reach out to the press to tell them? What kind of an operation is it we're running here?!

Grusch had everything cleared by the DOPSR that he's been saying.

People change. You can't predict that when you recruit them.
Also, Grusch is no longer an intelligence officer.

 

[PublicStranger]

The human mind is susceptible to believing hearsay based on the testimony of others and a person's opinion is swayed based on how widespread a claim becomes, ie. I've heard it from X who heard it from X who was witness to X. The more people that begin spreading a claim the more it fortifies anothers stance like a big game of Chinese whispers.

You only have to look back to the Salem Witch Trials as examples of how ludicrous beliefs can spread through word of mouth and lead to ''educated'' judges, officials and even the accused themselves believing that witchcraft/the devil was real.

 

[Amathia]

On what is going on

@AR318307 : I'm trying to make sense of this as well. Rubio was asked on Hannity whether there was any truth to the recent UFO articles and replied:



So some whistleblowers (not necessarily Grusch) have made claims about reverse engineering exotic materials, and some still work for the government (definitely not Grusch). And there are multiple whistleblowers holding high positions with very high clearances (up for interpretation).

Rubio mentioning exotic materials and whistleblowers is consistent with Grusch, though not conclusive. I speculate that each whistleblower has gone through an IG (as claimed by Grusch that he did), and that their information wouldn't reach Rubio/Congress unless the IG found it credible and urgent.

On interaction with the ICDoD and the ICIG

That Grusch is Elizondo Part 2 (@LilWabbit) is not adding up with Compass Rose press release

And it'd be one hell of a coincidence, if the whistleblowers Rubio were confirming the existence of didn't include Grusch given the overlap in stories. From that I find this proposition by @LilWabbit and the hypothetical by @Mendel implausible:

On the legislation being put forth

To @MonkeeSage's point on the Schumer bill the "UAP Disclosure Act of 2023", I fully agree the varying levels of credibility and background are not reported. But I'm also finding that the actual content of that legislation isn't reported, using it's kinship to the President John F. Kennedy Assassination Records Collection Act of 1992.

Some spectacular things I find are

So as @MonkeeSage points out there are big caveats, and even if nothing conclusive comes from this, the conspiracy theories won't go away vis-a-vis the JFK act.

I don't see this legislation happening without whistleblowers like Grusch being believed, and politicians believing it's good for them electorally to enact laws based off of it. Cosponsoring Schumer's bill were Rounds, Rubio, Heinrich, Gillibrand, Young, so it's bipartisan, suggesting these whistleblowers are not easily dismissed.

Also the Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2024 would prohibit spending on "legacy program" and require that all IGs add Security Officers to guide whistleblowers. I take this second piece of legislation as further evidence that there has been damning testimony that's been believed.

On Grusch is fed bad information by usual UFO firebrands

Until we know he was engaging with that crowd prior to 2021, I don't think it holds up as a line of attack. It is fully consistent that an individual, who has come to believe in UFOs and is shunned by military (according to Grusch) for that exact reason, would seek out UFO enthusiasts in the year 2021. Who else could he discuss this massive (to him) revelation with?
In scanning this thread, I didn't find evidence to suggest Grusch was engaged with UFO community prior to 2021. If he's been mixed in with that crowd, and in particular in a way that contradicts the DOPSR cleared document, it would be a severe blow to his credibility and integrity in my book.

There is still more to learn about Grusch. As has been pointed out, FOIA will help us with ICDoD and ICIG interviews and DOPSR overnight process lacks an explanation.

On what's rational as of July 22nd 2023

We should decipher what's going on by looking at the people with most knowledge about the matter. That would be the politicians, in particular in oversight roles, who've received testimony and corresponded with agencies. All else being equal, they act so as to get re-elected, and so must be of the belief that going on the media and legislative record is electorally beneficial. That also happens to be the indirect validation of Grusch that we'll get for some time.

We could be smarter than them and the entirety of their staff, but we're certainly less informed on these very high clearances matters. So is it really rational to think, they've all been duped?

Just want to comment on one point brought up in your post regarding how long he's known the UFO crowd usual suspects.

This Chris Mellon tweet says he's known Dave "for years". Not a tweet you can build an entire case on, but it's at least one data point.

 

[NorCal Dave]

Until we know he was engaging with that crowd prior to 2021, I don't think it holds up as a line of attack. It is fully consistent that an individual, who has come to believe in UFOs and is shunned by military (according to Grusch) for that exact reason, would seek out UFO enthusiasts in the year 2021. Who else could he discuss this massive (to him) revelation with?

But we are well aware that he was engaging with the Skinwalker Ranch (SWR)/UFO crowd by early 2021. The UAPTF was run by Jay Stratton, a SWR alum and believer. Stratton brought in Travis Taylor of Ancient Aliens fame to serve as "chief Scientist" for the UAPTF. It's very likely that Stratton was also bringing in other SWR alums such as Eric Davis and Hal Puthoff, with their stories of retrieved saucers and aliens.

What he thought before that time we don't know.

 

[LilWabbit]

I think it's extremely shocking that anyone in the intelligence community can be swayed by hearsay.

I just don't see how you can gather intelligence if when you are observing reality you think maybe werewolves are real.

This seems to come up regularly so hence I find myself recycling my responses to earlier posts making the same point.

Specific expertise in one thing does not imply expertise in another.

The DoD seeks to recruit tens of thousands of specific experts for specific tasks whereas most of the generalists able to see the bigger picture are at the top, holding generally a more balanced view on things. Not always, but normally. Hence they rise up through the ranks.

Galilei believed in astrology. Jung in the esoteric. Both greatly contributed to advancing scientific practice and non-extraordinary/parsimonious theories in their professional fields. It is not unheard of that one can be a brilliant expert in a narrow professional field while privately espousing beliefs that reflect a less professional methodology of establishing a truth.

This fact becomes more problematic when (1) these experts use their clout as 'experts' or 'scientists' for making statements outside their area of expertise which lay people have little competence, or confidence, to dispute; and when (2) these beliefs begin to interfere and undermine their professional duties.

The latter seems to be the case with Grusch and hence his clearance was restricted to which he reacted firstly through the IGs and subsequently in a far more public manner. His resignation was inevitable and hence the 'system' seems in fact decently functional. In other words, the system self-corrects and organically cleanses itself from various types of fanatics creating security concerns.

Once more, the big picture in brief:

There's a Skinwalker Ranch associated lobby of select ufologists, some of which have initially served the DoD in various capacites unrelated to UAP (Lacatski, Elizondo, Mellon and Grusch come readily to mind). This Bigelow-associated group (with many later 'recruits' having been impressed and won over by the stories of the earlier ones) managed to lobby Congress to establish a very modestly funded and staffed UAP investigation entity in the Pentagon. An entity that never arose from pure national security interests nor from rank-and-file DoD officials seeing any need for such an entity. An entity that has had different names, directors and a checkered history in funding. At its lowest funding ebbs (AATIP period), it seems to have merely been a part-time preoccupation of Luis Elizondo and a few other characters, alongside their day to day work.

These 'usual suspects', the Bigelow-connected characters, have been associated with this entity consistently throughout the years. Mellon, who's never been officially part of the entity, remains another relevant character associated with this lobby group who has worn the 'senior DoD intelligence official' title to attach credibility to the unsubstantiated beliefs promoted by these ufologists.

Politically, Democrat and UFO believer (late) Harry Reid used to be especially instrumental in securing congressional funding for UAP investigations due to his friendship with Robert Bigelow. After Reid's passing it seems Bigelow and gang are now relying on Republicans such as Tim Burchett and Marco Rubio who may have more political reasons (instead of deep ufologist ideological sympathies) to take up the 'cause'. Bigelow has been recently pouring a lot of money into Ron DeSantis' (R) and Joe Lombardo's (R) campaigns. This may all yet prove to backfire in terms of mainstream media (left-leaning) adopting a decidedly more skeptic stance and giving more coverage to skeptic narratives which, in turn, would likely serve to signifcantly reduce the Usual Suspects' influence.

Anyone who doesn't know the background and inter-connection of these main protagonists can be easily fooled by poor reporting quoting anonymous present or former DoD intelligence officials overhearing other DoD officials about secret programs within the DoD. Not realizing that it's just the same ol' suspects citing one another within their little echo chamber.

Unfortunately, due to such an influential and media-savvy ufologist lobby, the echo chamber echoes far beyond the chamber to the impressionable general public. And that's why we're where we are right now.

In sum: The two Bobs, billionaire Bigelow and story-teller Lazar, have single-handedly since 1990s managed to give received UFO myths an air of plausibility in terms of detailed stories, DoD staff connections and political support from Washington D.C. This convinces many who don't know any better.

 

[Ann K]

There's a Skinwalker Ranch associated lobby of select ufologists, some of which have initially served the DoD in various capacites unrelated to UAP

Somewhere in Metabunk there's a massive chart, updated several times, showing the complicated connections between a collection of individuals whose work we have been called upon to debunk many different times. I can't remember who authored it or what keywords to search for. Can anyone please help me find it, because it's so frequently relevant?

 

[flarkey]

Somewhere in Metabunk there's a massive chart, updated several times, showing the complicated connections between a collection of individuals whose work we have been called upon to debunk many different times. I can't remember who authored it or what keywords to search for. Can anyone please help me find it, because it's so frequently relevant?

here is is....

Post in thread 'UAPs, Bigelow, and the "Invisible College"' https://www.metabunk.org/threads/uaps-bigelow-and-the-invisible-college.11850/post-269223

 

[tintintintin]

These 'usual suspects', the Bigelow-connected characters, have been associated with this entity consistently throughout the years. Mellon, who's never been officially part of the entity, remains another relevant character associated with this lobby group who has worn the 'senior DoD intelligence official' title to attach credibility to the unsubstantiated beliefs promoted by these ufologists.

Politically, Democrat and UFO believer (late) Harry Reid used to be especially instrumental in securing congressional funding for UAP investigations due to his friendship with Robert Bigelow

In sum: The two Bobs, billionaire Bigelow and story-teller Lazar, have single-handedly since 1990s managed to give received UFO myths an air of plausibility in terms of detailed stories, DoD staff connections and political support from Washington D.C. This convinces many who don't know any better.

Somewhere in Metabunk there's a massive chart, updated several times, showing the complicated connections between a collection of individuals whose work we have been called upon to debunk many different times. I can't remember who authored it or what keywords to search for. Can anyone please help me find it, because it's so frequently relevant?

Thanks for the rundown, it's much better than the chart TBH

But we are well aware that he was engaging with the Skinwalker Ranch (SWR)/UFO crowd by early 2021. The UAPTF was run by Jay Stratton, a SWR alum and believer. Stratton brought in Travis Taylor of Ancient Aliens fame to serve as "chief Scientist" for the UAPTF. It's very likely that Stratton was also bringing in other SWR alums such as Eric Davis and Hal Puthoff, with their stories of retrieved saucers and aliens.

What he thought before that time we don't know.

Jay Stratton went on to run the UAPTF where he hired Ancient Aliens regular Travis Taylor as Chief Scientist. Travis Taylor is a SWR guy. Stratton's UAPTF is where Grusch worked on UAPs and heard the stories of crashed saucers and alien bodies.

To clarify, Grusch worked for the NRO and the NGA, and in that capacity he acted as the representative to UAPTF.

But, the point I here is that Grusch was NRO/NGA representative to UAPTF from 2019 to 2022 (while being NGA's co-lead for UAP analysis), and he has relationships with at least Elizondo and Mellon, and likely Stratton. While an SWR link instills little confidence, I'd still like more data on his corruption in this manner. Again, I wouldn't put it past a guy who's come to believe in UFOs, to seek out UFO enthusiasts.

Yesterday Rubio confirmed 1) A suspicion of ineffective congressional oversight when it comes to UAP records, 2) At least Grusch' claim of "spacecraft" has made it to Rubio's ears, and 3) Other whistleblowers have made related claims.

Rubio, the top-ranking Republican on the intelligence committee, has more access to classified information than the vast majority of lawmakers on Capitol Hill. He said he suspects there are records related to unidentified aerial phenomena that are being kept secret from congressional oversight.
[...]
Rubio said he was familiar with the claims of David Grusch, a career intelligence officer who worked for the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency. He claims the federal government has retrieved "non-human origin technical vehicles" that have landed or crashed on Earth.

"We have a number of people including that gentleman who have come forward both publicly and privately to make claims,"

 

[Mendel]

1) A suspicion of ineffective congressional oversight when it comes to UAP records

Yes. This may or may not be confirmed in the future.

 

[Ann K]

@tintintintin Pease note that Puthoff belongs in at least three groups: Skinwalker ranch, UFO proponents, and he was director of the Stanford research institute, as discussed on the current thread about remote viewing. It would seem that at least in his case, one fringe subject is insufficient to satisfy him.

 

[Scaramanga]

-maybe DOPSR is too low level to know about this super secret agency

I think John Greenewald dealt with that on The Black Vault, insofar as DOPSR could enquire of other agencies as to whether a subject is actually classified. They would then simply get back 'this is classified and we can't tell you'. Alas he has too much material for me to wade through it and find the section of video where he deals with the matter....but the general gist was that DOPSR would indirectly know that a matter was classified.