David Grusch's DOPSR Cleared Statement and IG Complaint

The Black Vault just got Grusch's DOSPR Request. Apparently none of it is classified, but parts are redacted to protect the privacy of individuals involved, which is a bit odd. The upshot being that Grusch could just release the whole thing if he really wanted:

The released documents beg a more significant question: If the DOD has provided a portion of the material, albeit redacted, why hasn't Grusch shown his requests in full? Such transparency would only bolster his credibility. But by the email exchange above within DOPSR, it seemed like nothing was of detailed note that caused any concern whatsoever, except for "vague" references to facilities which were no problem to them. What else was in the request?

To date, although Grusch's DOPSR material was referenced in each of his news interviews, and at the UAP hearing, it has yet to be released by Grusch despite being fully cleared for "Open Publication" by DOPSR. Why he has not released it to date remains a mystery. Past attempts by The Black Vault in June of this year to contact Mr. Grusch's attorney, Charles McCullough, specifically asking about the DOPSR material have remain unanswered.

https://www.theblackvault.com/docum...ufo-whistleblower-david-gruschs-dopsr-review/
 
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The Black Vault just got Grusch's DOSPR Request. Apparently none of it is classified, but parts are redacted to protect the privacy of individuals involved, which is a bit odd. The upshot being that Grusch could just release the whole thing if he really wanted:



https://www.theblackvault.com/docum...ufo-whistleblower-david-gruschs-dopsr-review/
Hmmm, John Greenewald didn't include the request, so I'm not 100% sure if the DOPSR rejected some requests, but this seems to be everything they approved. The dates match those mentioned originally.

It's now also clear that there aren't any huge revelations missing from the text @Mick West transcribed in the OP, the "Speaker/Author summary". Compare:

NewsNation:
View attachment 59800View attachment 59811View attachment 59829

FOIA result:
SmartSelect_20230919-053108_Samsung Notes.jpgSmartSelect_20230919-053138_Samsung Notes.jpg

The "Interview Question Submission" had all answers censored, and some numbers are either missing or censored.
External Quote:

SmartSelect_20230919-055243_Samsung Notes.jpg

CLEARED For Open Publication Apr 06, 2023
Department of Defense
OFFICE OF PREPUBLICATION AND SECURITY REVIEW

Interview Question Submission 20230406

UAP=Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena

1) Q: Can you expand "a publicly unknown Cold War for recovered and exploited physical material that has been waged under the noise floor for decades"

2) Q: What recovered physical material are you referring to? What is the nature/source of the material? When was it retrieved?

3) Q: How many programs did you uncover? Are they still active today? Were you able to determine the specific individuals involved?

4) Q: You may remember that Senator Harry Reid strongly suggested that they were at Lockheed Martin. He said in the The New Yorker: "I was told for decades that Lockheed had some of these retrieved materials. And I tried to get, as I recall, a classified approval by the Pentagon to have me go look at the stuff. They would not approve that."

5) Why were you so severely harassed? This must have something to do with the implications and explosive nature of what you uncovered... it was a threat because of what it revealed...?

8) Q: What was the "unfathomable and constitutional dilemma" that you refer to?

10) Why are you doing this? In other words, why is it important to you that this information come out? Do you believe that humanity has a right to the knowledge that we are not alone? It is a paradigm shift... is this something that the planet should have, rather than this very basic truth be kept secret?
SmartSelect_20230919-055255_Samsung Notes.jpgSmartSelect_20230919-055308_Samsung Notes.jpgSmartSelect_20230919-055321_Samsung Notes.jpgSmartSelect_20230919-055339_Samsung Notes.jpgSmartSelect_20230919-055356_Samsung Notes.jpgSmartSelect_20230919-055408_Samsung Notes.jpg
 
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The Black Vault just got Grusch's DOSPR Request. Apparently none of it is classified, but parts are redacted to protect the privacy of individuals involved, which is a bit odd. The upshot being that Grusch could just release the whole thing if he really wanted:



https://www.theblackvault.com/docum...ufo-whistleblower-david-gruschs-dopsr-review/
The IG reports would be the same way. The USG won't release them to protect those involved in filing the complaints, but the individual(s) who filed the complaints are free to release the findings and report.
 
So just to be crystal clear, the person answering those questions was Grusch and the answers are only redacted to protect him and he could, if he wanted, reveal those answers?
 
So just to be crystal clear, the person answering those questions was Grusch and the answers are only redacted to protect him and he could, if he wanted, reveal those answers?
Grusch submitted this Q&A. It is cleared for open publication in its unredacted form. I believe the person protected by these redactions is David Grusch, though there may be others. I expect that Grusch could make the unredacted version of this document publicly available with no legal repercussions.
 
Grusch submitted this Q&A. It is cleared for open publication in its unredacted form. I believe the person protected by these redactions is David Grusch, though there may be others. I expect that Grusch could make the unredacted version of this document publicly available with no legal repercussions.
Isn't it odd that UFOlogy fans are demanding disclosure from the government while their star witness, Dave Grusch, is withholding a government approved disclosure.
 
Isn't it odd that UFOlogy fans are demanding disclosure from the government while their star witness, Dave Grusch, is withholding a government approved disclosure.
It would be more odd if we make conclusions based on conjecture such as this. We need more evidence that such a conclusion is warranted. Grusch's lawyer is quite capable and there may have been reasons for this that we're unaware of.
 
Grusch's lawyer is quite capable and there may have been reasons for this that we're unaware of.
As there are reasons for the DoD to not disclose all of their files.
Shouldn't the same standard apply for both?

In Grusch's case, he submitted statements for DOPSR review that he intended to publish. If he now has reasons not to publish them, that reversal is interesting, is it not?

For me, seeing Grusch's DOPSR statement reveals how much of his claims are based on older, well-known narratives that the public already knows about.
 
Interestingly, the document lists UAP and what that means at the top, but nowhere in the rest of what we have is UAP, UFO, Non-Earthly Origins, Non-Human Biologicals or any other alien euphemisms used. The questions could just as easily apply to domestic and foreign crash retrieval programs which are known to exists (bold by me).

External Quote:

CLEARED For Open Publication Apr 06, 2023
Department of Defense
OFFICE OF PREPUBLICATION AND SECURITY REVIEW

Interview Question Submission 20230406

UAP=Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena

1) Q: Can you expand "a publicly unknown Cold War for recovered and exploited physical material that has been waged under the noise floor for decades"

2) Q: What recovered physical material are you referring to? What is the nature/source of the material? When was it retrieved?

3) Q: How many programs did you uncover? Are they still active today? Were you able to determine the specific individuals involved?

4) Q: You may remember that Senator Harry Reid strongly suggested that they were at Lockheed Martin. He said in the The New Yorker: "I was told for decades that Lockheed had some of these retrieved materials. And I tried to get, as I recall, a classified approval by the Pentagon to have me go look at the stuff. They would not approve that."

5) Why were you so severely harassed? This must have something to do with the implications and explosive nature of what you uncovered... it was a threat because of what it revealed...?

8) Q: What was the "unfathomable and constitutional dilemma" that you refer to?

10) Why are In other words, why is it important to you that this information come out? Do you believe that humanity has a right to the knowledge that we are not alone? It is a paradigm shift... is this something that the planet should have, rather than this very basic truth be kept secret?
 
Interestingly, the document lists UAP and what that means at the top,
The author statement has "UFO (UAP)".

Some part of the ufo community really hates that some unidentified things might not be "anomalous" or not UFOs.

but nowhere in the rest of what we have is UAP, UFO, Non-Earthly Origins, Non-Human Biologicals or any other alien euphemisms used.
It does look like at least 3 questions were cut, and we don't know what these referred to. He also could've been using these terms in his answers.
 
As there are reasons for the DoD to not disclose all of their files.
Shouldn't the same standard apply for both?

In Grusch's case, he submitted statements for DOPSR review that he intended to publish. If he now has reasons not to publish them, that reversal is interesting, is it not?

For me, seeing Grusch's DOPSR statement reveals how much of his claims are based on older, well-known narratives that the public already knows about.
Sure. Speculation for both sides is fine but drawing conclusions is a little premature.
 
Sure. Speculation for both sides is fine but drawing conclusions is a little premature.
I haven't seen any conclusions drawn?

I did conclude from the fact that Grush published his IC IG complaint, but not Monheim's response, that the latter may contain parts not favorable to Grusch.
 
Grusch submitted this Q&A. It is cleared for open publication in its unredacted form. I believe the person protected by these redactions is David Grusch, though there may be others. I expect that Grusch could make the unredacted version of this document publicly available with no legal repercussions.
I had two personal experiences while employed by DoD that might be of interest, one involving a FOIA request I made, the second was an IG complaint I filed.

One year, after OPM (Office of Personnel Management) messed up changing my health insurance as requested, I filed a FOIA request with them for everything they had on the incident, from them receiving my original change form to the final resolution 3-4 months later. I specifically asked for all internal correspondence regarding the incident. Much to my surprise, my name had been redacted from all the emails they provided me that went between OPM employees who worked the problem.

I was involved in an auto accident on a USAF base. The base law enforcement officers who responded to the call were young airmen who were clearly clueless how to investigate an accident. Long story short, I filed an IG complaint after I received a baseless ticket a few weeks or so later and reviewed the police report.

The IG report concluded the police had acted unprofessionally and made multiple errors in both their investigation and accident report. After conferring with both the IG and on the advice of my attorney, I provided a copy of the report to my insurance company. In turn, they used it to overturn the original adjudication of the insurance settlement with the other guy's insurance. This resulted in me getting my deductible returned to me.
 
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I haven't seen any conclusions drawn?

I did conclude from the fact that Grush published his IC IG complaint, but not Monheim's response, that the latter may contain parts not favorable to Grusch.

But you can't conclude that. I assume you mean you have a suspicion that some parts may be unfavorable.
 
A new development. Dr. Sean Kirkpatrick has confirmed that some of the claims from Mr. Grusch's witnesses are in fact, true! He also confirms a "story arc", or theme which is consistent with multiple witnesses.
DR. KIRKPATRICK: So, the last time I believe I spoke with Mr. Grusch was when I was in the J2 at U.S. Space Command about five years ago, and it was not on this topic. Now, we have interviewed a whole range of people, over 30 people now. I think we've interviewed most of the people that he may have talked to, but we don't know that.
What they are reporting, we are documenting. They are reviewing and then revalidating that this is what they want to say. We then research all of that collectively. There is a – there is a, if you think of it as a story arc, there's a number of people that kind of fit into this story arc.

But then there's these little offshoots and variations on themes. We're investigating each and every one of them. We're cross-referencing those. There are some bits of information that are turning out to be things and events that really happened. A lot of it is still under review, and we're putting all that together into our historical report.

AARO is currently collecting interviews with anyone who was a witness to the alleged UAP program (prioritizing first-hand), and there is more research to be done. Hopefully we'll hear more about the results in the next few months.
He also says he hasn't found any evidence "yet", though it clearly sounds like there is more work to do, so it's definitely not confirmed to be a false claim.
https://www.defense.gov/News/Transc...patrick-holds-an-off-camera-media-roundtable/
 
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A new development. Dr. Sean Kirkpatrick has confirmed that some of the claims from Mr. Grusch's witnesses are in fact, true!
The quote in question being this part: "There are some bits of information that are turning out to be things and events that really happened".

That doesn't make the claims true. C.f.:

Pilot: "Look at this unexplainable dot in this FLIR recording, it can only be an alien!"
AARO: "looks like a bird flying"

The bird is a thing, its flying is an event that really happened. So the dot on the FLIR turned out to be a thing and event that really happened. However, the claim was not "in fact true".
 
The quote in question being this part: "There are some bits of information that are turning out to be things and events that really happened".

That doesn't make the claims true. C.f.:

Pilot: "Look at this unexplainable dot in this FLIR recording, it can only be an alien!"
AARO: "looks like a bird flying"

The bird is a thing, its flying is an event that really happened. So the dot on the FLIR turned out to be a thing and event that really happened. However, the claim was not "in fact true".
Yes I understand your point, and it's not necessarily about a claim of seeing something, remember some of these are people in the program, so for example they could have been asked to analyze unknown materials, or had contracts or accounting records of expenditures outside of oversight, and definitely there is a witness of one person who examined a biologic and who said it wasn't human.
On the other hand, the claim has not been ruled out and it's adding some plausibility that there's something, in other words, not just a bunch of stories re-hashed for years and promoted by true believers.
It also somewhat confirms that Mr. Grusch isn't a liar.
 
here is a witness of one person who examined a biologic and who said it wasn't human.

I'd be careful not to read into that kind of ambiguous language. Who knows what exactly they are describing.
 
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A new development. Dr. Sean Kirkpatrick has confirmed that some of the claims from Mr. Grusch's witnesses are in fact, true!
I endorse @FatPhil 's caveat about whether or not the claims are true. But in addition, I understand it to be that these are Grusch's claims, not those of the unnamed (or at least unpublished name) witnesses to which he refers. We don't know what they claimed, and only know what Grusch interpreted their comments to mean. For all we know, his informants may just have been the people who looked at items in the LIZ and said "Looks like a bird flying". In such a case, Grusch may have merely been told "We got another video clip today".
 
I endorse @FatPhil 's caveat about whether or not the claims are true. But in addition, I understand it to be that these are Grusch's claims, not those of the unnamed (or at least unpublished name) witnesses to which he refers. We don't know what they claimed, and only know what Grusch interpreted their comments to mean. For all we know, his informants may just have been the people who looked at items in the LIZ and said "Looks like a bird flying". In such a case, Grusch may have merely been told "We got another video clip today".
Just a reminder of his claims,
Grusch said:
US Representative Nancy Mace (01:49:22):
Were they, I guess, human or non-human biologics?

David Charles Grusch (01:49:25):
Non-human, and that was the assessment of people with direct knowledge on the program I talked to that are currently still on the program.

US Representative Nancy Mace (01:48:19):
Do you believe that officials at the highest levels of our national security apparatus have unlawfully withheld information from Congress and subverted our oversight authority?

David Charles Grusch (01:48:29):
There are certain elected leaders that had more information that, I'm not sure what they've shared with certain Gang of Eight members or et cetera, but certainly I would not be surprised.

Jared Moskowitz (01:07:43):
Do you have knowledge or do you have reason to believe that there are programs in the advanced tech space that are unsanctioned?

David Charles Grusch (01:07:51):
Yes, I do.

Jared Moskowitz (01:08:58):
Okay. Satellite imagery. Let's talk about satellite imagery. We have satellites all over the place. Some that we're aware of and many that we're not aware of, right? We're taking pictures of everything at every point in second. Mr. Grusch, do you have direct knowledge or have you talked to people with direct knowledge that there are satellite imagery of these events?

David Charles Grusch (01:09:23):
That was one of my primary tasks at NGA. Since we process, exploit and disseminate that kind of information, I've seen multiple cases, some of which to my understanding. And of course I left NGA in April, so that's my information cutoff date. But I personally reviewed both what we call overhead collection and from other strategic and tactical platforms that I could not even explain prosaically. And I have a degree in physics by the way as well. And I am aware that you guys have not seen these reports, unfortunately. And I don't know why.
So we're not just talking about a story of a LIZ video. There's specific claims, the existence of a UAP reverse engineering program which fraudently spent money and without oversight, a disinformation campaign, reprisals, possession of craft and biologics, program names, holding locations. unreported data on UAPs.
As I said, one person directly examined bodies. I don't think that's up for interpretation.
 
Context from https://www.metabunk.org/threads/aaro-media-roundtable.13239/ :

David Grusch


External Quote:
DR. KIRKPATRICK: So, Mr. Grusch, since AARO has stood up and since I've been director, has not come to see us and provided any information.

DR. KIRKPATRICK: So, the last time I believe I spoke with Mr. Grusch was when I was in the J2 at U.S. Space Command about five years ago, and it was not on this topic. Now, we have interviewed a whole range of people, over 30 people now. I think we've interviewed most of the people that he may have talked to, but we don't know that. And we have extended an invitation at least four or five times now for him to come in over the last eight months or so and has been declined.
External Quote:
Q: One quick follow up question. So, you said you think you've all talked to the same people David Grusch did. Are you able to expand on that? What did they share with you all?

DR. KIRKPATRICK: No. For a variety of reasons, so we -- we, obviously, we are obligated to protect all these people's identities for – for all kinds of reasons. What they are reporting, we are documenting. They are reviewing and then revalidating that this is what they want to say. We then research all of that collectively. There is a – there is a, if you think of it as a story arc, there's a number of people that kind of fit into this story arc.

But then there's these little offshoots and variations on themes. We're investigating each and every one of them. We're cross-referencing those. There are some bits of information that are turning out to be things and events that really happened. A lot of it is still under review, and we're putting all that together into our historical report.

Clandestine UAP Programs

External Quote:
Q: Thank you. I just wanted to double check on a new thing, something you are asking current and former government employees if they have evidence of a former clandestine UAP program. What makes you believe that such a thing might have existed? And if the government kept it secret before, why should a government employee trust you now?

DR. KIRKPATRICK: Well, let's see, I currently have no evidence of any program having ever existed as a to do any sort of reverse engineering of any sort of extraterrestrial UAP program. We do have a requirement by law to bring those whistleblowers or other interviewees in who think that it does exist, and they may have information that pertains to that. We do not have any of that evidence right now. And why should they come to us?

Well, they should come to us because, well, it's in law that we are the authorized reporting authority for them to come to, they are protected under the Whistleblower Act that they extended those protections to last year's legislation and we have the security mechanisms by which to anonymously and confidentially bring them in, hear what they have to say, research that information and protect it if it is in truly classified. And if it's not classified, then we can validate that as well.
 
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It also somewhat confirms that Mr. Grusch isn't a liar.
No, it's the opposite.

"Now, we have interviewed a whole range of people, over 30 people now. I think we've interviewed most of the people that [Grusch] may have talked to, but we don't know that."
"I currently have no evidence of any program having ever existed as a to do any sort of reverse engineering of any sort of extraterrestrial UAP program."

To me, this confirms that Grusch's UAP-related hearsay claims are at their core untrue.

Take, for comparison, Roswell. If there were witnesses claiming a UFO crashed at Roswell in summer 1947, and AARO followed up and found out that the "story arc" is one about a Project Mogul balloon getting lost and crashing in a farmer's field and being retrieved, they'd describe it as "some bits of information that are turning out to be things and events that really happened", but there wouldn't be a UFO.

Kirkpatrick's statement leaves no room for speculation that evidence for a UFO exploitation program exists. It doesn't. But they just now started phase 2 of soliciting whistleblower testimony, so in a few months, AARO will know pretty much for sure if such a program ever existed. See https://www.metabunk.org/threads/aaro-media-roundtable.13239/
 
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Oh, and then there's this:
Just a reminder of his claims,
External Quote:
[...snip...]
David Charles Grusch (01:09:23):
That was one of my primary tasks at NGA. Since we process, exploit and disseminate that kind of information, I've seen multiple cases, some of which to my understanding. And of course I left NGA in April, so that's my information cutoff date. But I personally reviewed both what we call overhead collection and from other strategic and tactical platforms that I could not even explain prosaically. And I have a degree in physics by the way as well. And I am aware that you guys have not seen these reports, unfortunately. And I don't know why.
Dr Kirkpatrick, AARO Roundtable:
External Quote:
DR. KIRKPATRICK: So, the answer to your first question is yes, I have access to all the overhead imagery I need. I have not seen any of them that have collected UAP. We have collected lots of UAP that turned out to be balloons and those look nice.
Even Grusch's first-hand evidence didn't hold up.
 
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Oh, and then there's this:

Just a reminder of his claims,
[...snip...]
David Charles Grusch (01:09:23):
That was one of my primary tasks at NGA. Since we process, exploit and disseminate that kind of information, I've seen multiple cases, some of which to my understanding. And of course I left NGA in April, so that's my information cutoff date. But I personally reviewed both what we call overhead collection and from other strategic and tactical platforms that I could not even explain prosaically. And I have a degree in physics by the way as well. And I am aware that you guys have not seen these reports, unfortunately. And I don't know why.
Content from External Source

Grusch in this statement is close to bringing up an issue that the True Believers probably want to stay away from. He seems to be claiming to have seen "something" on classified imagery that he couldn't identify.

Go check out the NRO website, it doesn't tell you what current spy satellites can do, but it does talk about some old declassified systems.
Then do a search for "commercial satellite imagery" and look at what commercial satellite operators can sell you.

Every day, both in the Classified and unclassified worlds many thousands of imagery analysts look at pictures collected from above. Surely if the number of UAP's in our skies is as great as some claim there should be many examples of "flying saucers" caught in the act. Where are the imagery analysts talking about all of the "mile long motherships" they have seen cruising our skies?

Once upon a time good satellite pictures were the purview of governments, but not anymore. If the billions spent by the NRO produced "useful" toys then the NRO and other agencies should have vast libraries of UAP pictures. And today commercial satellite companies should be regularly finding them as well. Are they?

True Believers need to keep the focus on crashed UAP's and away from the endless images of ones that did not, which SHOULD BE OUT THERE. Asking where all the good satellite pictures of UAP's are is a very different issue, why aren't they asking for them to be released? Perhaps because there aren't any?
 
Just a reminder of his claims,

So we're not just talking about a story of a LIZ video. There's specific claims, the existence of a UAP reverse engineering program which fraudently spent money and without oversight, a disinformation campaign, reprisals, possession of craft and biologics, program names, holding locations. unreported data on UAPs.
As I said, one person directly examined bodies. I don't think that's up for interpretation.

Firstly, no, almost none of the claims are in any way "specific", most are quite the opposite; "nebulous" would be a better word.

And on your final point - who was this "one person" - name, position, and department, please? And exactly how did he describe the bodies he examined, and the situation within which this examination took place - a direct quote and a link to verify, please, no paraphrasing?

Don't have one? Is that because all you, or anyone, has is David Grusch, or someone equally unreliable, saying that they heard someone else make reference to such examinations? In which case, not only is that "up for interpretation", it's *already been interpreted* by whatever middleman was passing the information on.

Looks like hearsay, smells like hearsay, has the same value as hearsay.
 
Just a reminder of his claims,

So we're not just talking about a story of a LIZ video. There's specific claims, the existence of a UAP reverse engineering program which fraudently spent money and without oversight, a disinformation campaign, reprisals, possession of craft and biologics, program names, holding locations. unreported data on UAPs.
As I said, one person directly examined bodies. I don't think that's up for interpretation.
The "disinformation campaign" does not exist, at least not to form.

The people you see making claims like that, here's a bit of fun. Elizondo, Mellon, Grusch - they all spent significant amounts of their careers working related to Information Operations. Quite a bit interesting that when they bring up this factor, they never talk about it accurately, as in, if you talked about it how they did, at their old job, you'd get looked at like you're brand new and somehow skipped the entire training and onboarding process. This "disinformation campaign" cannot actually be indicated if you try to apply any CPD methodologies, in fact, if you do, you end up with a quite remarkedly different field, one where the people participating in the campaign, are those making the claims about it, self-admittedly too.
 
As I said, one person directly examined bodies. I don't think that's up for interpretation.
I think the very most you could say there, based on what you posted, is "it is claimed that they have body(ies), if so it seems logical that somebody examined them."

Whether or not that is TRUE is open to interpretation.

I'll wait on evidence -- but as an old guy (I need to update my avatar, the hair is ALL gray now!) I've seen this circus come to town before. Claims that the government has all this super secret UFO info, including dead or live aliens, and it is all going to be disclosed Real Soon Now, Trust Me are not new. Previously, the exciting disclosure has, every time, been underwhelming and the core claims are left unproven, but we've seen lots of nifty pictures of hubcaps thrown up in the air, Frisbees (tm), room lights reflected in windows, balloons, flying saucer models hung on strings and more blurry camera-jiggle-streaked blobs in the dark than I can count.

Maybe this time will be different, maybe we'll see the evidence. But experience says "don't hold your breath."
 
As I said, one person directly examined bodies. I don't think that's up for interpretation.

Not to pile on, but it I've been talking to some other people off the forum about these same sort of statements. One needs to be critical about these.

External Quote:
David Charles Grusch (01:49:25):
Non-human, and that was the assessment of people with direct knowledge on the program I talked to that are currently still on the program.
This is 2nd hand and is open for interpretation. So much of UFOLogy is based 2nd hand stories and i fail to see how nobody sees this.

At best, Grusch is telling us what he remembers being told. So, on the first layer, we have to believe that Grush:
  1. is telling us exactly what he was told,
  2. he has not misremembered ANY of it,
  3. he has not exaggerated what he was told and
  4. he has not made up what he claims he was told.

We have NO way to verify any of that. What we're told is, Grusch is a decorated Intel officer that we should trust and believe completely. Even if we go with that and say that eliminates points 3 and 4 above, it still leaves us with point 2. We're relying on what someone remembered.

But let's say point 1 is correct, and Grusch has reliably conveyed to us what he was told. As this is still 2nd hand, we're now on to the second layer, do we believe the source? Points 2, 3 and 4 above, all pertain to whoever is telling Grusch this information. As we don't know anything about this person or if they even exist, we're forced to, not only accept that Grusch has totally and accurately passed on the information he was told, but we must also believe Grush on the validity of his source.

All that can be said at certain right now is that Grusch SAID someone TOLD him they worked on aliens in a government program. That is not evidence of anything, even one completely trusts Grusch. It's only evidence that he says someone told him these things.
 
The "disinformation campaign" does not exist, at least not to form.

The people you see making claims like that, here's a bit of fun. Elizondo, Mellon, Grusch - they all spent significant amounts of their careers working related to Information Operations. Quite a bit interesting that when they bring up this factor, they never talk about it accurately, as in, if you talked about it how they did, at their old job, you'd get looked at like you're brand new and somehow skipped the entire training and onboarding process. This "disinformation campaign" cannot actually be indicated if you try to apply any CPD methodologies, in fact, if you do, you end up with a quite remarkedly different field, one where the people participating in the campaign, are those making the claims about it, self-admittedly too.
I don't understand what you're talking about.
 
Just a reminder of his claims,

So we're not just talking about a story of a LIZ video. There's specific claims, the existence of a UAP reverse engineering program which fraudently spent money and without oversight, a disinformation campaign, reprisals, possession of craft and biologics, program names, holding locations. unreported data on UAPs.
As I said, one person directly examined bodies. I don't think that's up for interpretation.
Anecdotal evidence.
 
I don't understand what you're talking about.
When we talk about "disinformation" this represents a tool rather than a practice. The larger "thing" it is practiced under will change depending on the specific nation, since they all have their own respective frameworks and views on the various topics and subjects that make up its practical use.
For the US, the larger structuring of these activities would fall under the various functional areas of Information Operations for the military. How our nation uses "disinformation" is quite distinct from how other nations, like our adversaries, do, for multiple reasons. Due to this, media largely represents conceptualizations, frameworks, and practices from nations adversarial to us, primarily authoritarian nations which have very distinct forms of practice. When "disinformation" is brought up surrounding the UAP topic, it is nearly always framed from authoritarian practice.
Elizondo, Grusch, and Mellon have all spent significant amounts of their careers working in different functional areas within Information Operations, the field under which "disinformation" would be used as a tool.

Some important terms:
-Disinformation, Misinformation, and Malign Information represent both categorization of information and tools.
-A campaign in relation to these matters indicates a centralized set of efforts which act to achieve a short term objective, usually one which is tactically oriented.
-A program represents the same thing as a campaign, except it's structured differently and to achieve long term OR more structured objectives. Programs split into supporting programs which act much like campaigns do.

The campaign and program split is important here for two reasons, the "whistleblowers" frequently use the term "campaign" where patently referencing what would be a "program". Further, the military specifically does not use "campaigns" as a reference here, this is a split that only exists in public communications fields. The reason the distinction doesn't really exist for the military is because "campaigns" for them reference literal military campaigns. Now, "campaign" does get used in relation to Covert Influence, although that's a practice directed by another part of the government outside of the DoD and it's so small in terms of manpower and resources, covering the entire globe, that it's not even worth theorizing connection to domestic UAP matters.

We can break the practices down into the relevant functional areas (foregoing cyberspace and electromagnetic due to limited relevancy; also not considering Public Affairs since using MDM is outside its practice), as we should since "disinformation" would never just be that, it'd be practiced as part of one of these larger functional areas that would inform their understanding, practice, and also the goals and intents of the effort;

Deception - Rather than breaking this portion down into the different types, three would be of relevance to us; Strategic and Strategic-Military Deception (these would be targeting foreign decision makers), and Deception in Support of Operations Security (targeting foreign intelligence collection tech and/or processes rather than individuals).

Deception itself is already an insanely small functional area and a very touchy one. If we get to the Strat and Strat-Mil side specifically, we're talking a group that's probably around the size of the active userbase here, and they're mostly acting as planners for others, not sitting in a circle together. This puts a hard barrier on the idea we're running what would be claimed as a blend of these, against our own populace, when we don't even have enough people to staff doing it against our adversaries, which is an ongoing debate for more resources and attention.

The further idea of deception efforts running consistently for decades is kind of contradictory if we consider specific claimed characteristics. Even in cases where there is consistent deception over a specific topic, this has been spread across multiple different distinct efforts and are not part of the same "campaign" or even part of the same program. The absolute closest comparative we have are Soviet and Russian Active Measure planning, which, at a policy level have goals planned out for decades, but these are "operationalized" by distinct bodies over the timeframe, which ends up cumulatively being a pool of dozens or 100s of distinct efforts, where the broader "deception" is an intended result of the cumulative effort (this is not how it is framed by the "whistleblowers" - rather, they frame it as a singular centralized effort of practice).

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/rgs_dissertations/RGSD300/RGSD370/RAND_RGSD370.pdf - This study, entitled "Deception in Covert Nuclear Weapons Development" hosts multiple case studies related to Covert R&D programs, primarily nuclear (though does give a biological & chemical example too). These tend to be the longest since they take on elements that blend multiple types for longer term objectives. For example most of these tend to blend both DISO and Strategic or Strat-Mil elements. It also provides a great study lesson for rudimentary understanding of counterdeception.

Psychological Operations - People tend to confuse this one a lot with the sorts of influence campaigns we hear our adversaries running. A majority of psychological operations are not internet enabled. Instead, it's stuff like mass dropping leaflets from planes and hijacking radio broadcasts to play your own. So far, well, we've seen none of this actually. If we dabble into internet-enabled campaigns and programs, the reality of our capabilities spells a far different story than what's claimed with our capabilities. In fact, it's not been until the past few years that the DoD has actually embraced and put resources into that part specifically, which was even more taboo than the larger practice.
https://theintercept.com/2022/12/20/twitter-dod-us-military-accounts/
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD1165032.pdf
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https://www.congress.gov/114/crpt/hrpt537/CRPT-114hrpt537.pdf
Here's the NDA from 2017 which included a lot of the initial effort and attention from Congress to bolster our capabilities here. Just sharing one snippet to prevent the post dragging even more but there's a bunch of relevant sections within this.
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There is an element of practice here which does get used domestically, and that is Defense Support of Civil Authorities, more specifically "Civil Authority Information Support". In these cases, it's largely the same as the above just with a different goal, it's things like driving around natural disaster zones with a loudspeaker telling people where evacuation sites, medical aide etc is located.
https://www.jcs.mil/Portals/36/Documents/Doctrine/pubs/jp3_28.pdf


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Thank for taking the time to explain this in detail!
I seem to understand that the DoD is not set up to run a UFO disinformation "campaign", both in terms of doctrine and manpower, and even if it was, those ex-IC officials should be using different terminology to talk about it.

That leaves this statement:
This "disinformation campaign" cannot actually be indicated if you try to apply any CPD methodologies, in fact, if you do, you end up with a quite remarkedly different field, one where the people participating in the campaign, are those making the claims about it, self-admittedly too.
What are CPD methodologies? What field would we end up with? And who are the people participating in the campaign, and what are their claims?
 
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Thank for taking the time to explain this in detail!
I seem to understand that the DoD is not set up to run a UFO disinformation "campaign", both in terms of doctrine and manpower, and even if it was, those ex-IC officials should be using different terminology to talk about it.

That leaves this statement:

What are CPD methodologies? What field would we end up with? And who are the people participating in the campaign, and what are their claims?
Apologies I get ahead of myself with terminology and acronyms sometimes. CPD stands for Counter Disinformation and Propaganda, it's a term of practice reference that's been developing recently. It is distinct from other fields of practice such as Counterdeception which comes with its own respective tools and techniques, etc. Foregoing Counterdeception since that's a much bigger beast on its own, with CPD there's a bunch of relevant things you could apply here with the expanding interest in countering disinformation as a public field.
A short little one that's frequently applied to adverse products themselves is SCAME (source, content, audience, message, effect) analysis. This is equally as applicable to say, posts on Reddit claiming stories about whatever. Granted this is for assessing content, you wouldn't really identify networks or etc that way.

Without getting into technical mumbo jumbo, identifying these matters in a social media context very heavily strays into assessing user behavior individually and as a group. Take r/ufos for example, there are certain posting patterns that can be segmented to different audiences. Inauthentic accounts will "fit" within one of these audiences but still present incongruities from authentic accounts, and depending on all the data you consider, could be indicated as an outlier account, and you'd dig into it from there. Accounts participating in a campaign or program will likely have overlapping features, thus making a grouping of similar outliers that can be further assessed, this grouping of outliers is unlikely to present as an organic group if you look at that segmented group.

So, per the big claims, at the least, this would have at least one network of accounts making up the "campaign" or whatever it may be. This means there would be multiple accounts. Something that, happens a lot here, and the idea that any government is above being caught out here is false, you can very easily rope up networks after you identify a single account.
There's lots of ways you can do this depending on how much access you have to platforms and devices. Even if you look at private practices here which certainly step things up, you can identify networks of "avatars" (avatars are a form of personified account that are intimately detailed and tend to be actively managed in some form, even if by an AI, these are distinct from bots and general persona accounts). Team Jorge is an example here.
https://forbiddenstories.org/kiosk/story-killers/ (this is a repository of articles, very big multi-outlet investigation)

The "field" is just a generic reference to the overall environment. As to who the people are, I want to be very distinct here that there is a very strong possibility these are distinct efforts and not everyone is doing the same thing for the same reasons, or even intentionally doing things. Others may just happen to be part of it but not really a participant themselves. Conducting a communications campaign or program is not mutual with employing tools such as disinformation or amplifying misinformation, further, even malign campaigns and programs may make no use of those tools (their use *would* qualify a campaign or program as malign, but there's other qualifiers, like lack of transparency, which don't have to be mutual with use of things like disinformation)

As for an example of a campaign being conducted related to this, Elizondo, Mellon, and Stratton represent a group of three individuals which have worked closely together in what could debatably be considered a "campaign" or "program" in the communications sense. Elizondo and Stratton have openly admitted to this, believe you've participated in the convos on other posts where I've talked about this. Mellon was an active participant in this effort, fulfilling a role that in public communications terms would be called "Government Affairs/Government Relations". This isn't really a theoretical, procedurally this is what they did, even if they did not follow an actual explicit communications process.

Further, getting into literal communications practice, there are organizations that do PR for all these people that very rarely get talked about. Declassify UAP is one of them. Their website currently is chalk full of content from one of their campaigns.

Distinct from the Elizondo, Mellon, and Stratton ordeal, we have Coulthart, as an individual. We have seen Coulthart make use of malign communications in an attempt to prime and frame materials that will be released or about actions that will take place in the future. This is something I've spoken about before too, Coulthart has been an active participant in what would be called "Dark PR" (ala the Roberts-Smith incident), which is the catch-all term for the malign use of communications tools and processes in public comms fields.

Edited here to add a few links to studies relating to inauthentic account networks on SM sites, specifically ones working as part of or aligned with government efforts;
https://public-assets.graphika.com/reports/graphika_report_summit_old_summit_new.pdf- Covering network of accounts interacting with relation to a NATO summit

https://public-assets.graphika.com/...internet_observatory_report_unheard_voice.pdf - Study on the US attempt referenced in my last post which got exposed, and, to date, remains the only social media campaign and/or program to be connected to the US.

https://public-assets.graphika.com/reports/graphika_stanford_report_bad_reputation.pdf - This one covering Russian actors again, though this one in relation to leveraging alternative tech platforms.

https://www.mandiant.com/sites/default/files/2021-09/rpt-FireEye-Iranian-IO (1)-1.pdf - Here's one from Mandiant hitting at a network (/networks) of Iranian accounts.

This last one I could go on for days about, as, this is objectively one of the largest efforts indicated throughout the 2000s, not at all from an actor anyone would expect, and is entirely public reporting. Not only is this a great example for a lot of reasons, this is also an effort which involved both internet-enabled and analogous elements in pretty much every respect, from fake social media accounts, to fake news networks, all the way to front groups and agents of influence acting in dozens of target nations across the globe.
https://www.disinfo.eu/publications...eting-the-eu-and-un-to-serve-indian-interests
 
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So, per the big claims, at the least, this would have at least one network of accounts making up the "campaign" or whatever it may be. This means there would be multiple accounts. Something that, happens a lot here, and the idea that any government is above being caught out here is false, you can very easily rope up networks after you identify a single account.
Thanks again for your effort in posting an introduction to this field! It reminded me of a study on Russian disinformation I had mentioned here quite a while ago.

I understand that if the US was running a UFO disinformation program, it should go far beyond Susan Gough or Sean Kirkpatrick denying that there's evidence of them; it'd be a joint effort, and people like Elizondo or Grusch should be able to talk about it as such, and be able to identify evidence of it—but they don't.

For example, the "campaign to discredit Elizondo" consists of an internal memo by Gary Reid, "liberated" via FOIA, and then published e.g. in The Intercept, which is not the way you would expect this to look like. Instead, parts of the UFO believer community follow the pattern of conspiracy theorists in general (all the way to Flat Earthers) and call out anyone disagreeing with them as "government shills" without any evidence other than said disagreement. With trained observers from an intelligence background, the UFO community should be able to do much better if there was an actual "long-running" government disinformation program to identify.

Instead, we can see that the disclosure activists (Graves, Elizondo, Coulthart etc.) are pursuing a coordinated communication effort of their own.

(If Mick West is being inauthentic, he sure has got all of us fooled.)

Take r/ufos for example, there are certain posting patterns that can be segmented to different audiences.
I don't read r/ufos, but I expect it'd be an interesting post if you ever decide to follow through on this example.
 
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I think it can be very difficult to figure out whether an apparent conspiracy theorist is part of a disinformation campaign. Both the "sincere" and the fake CT won't acknowledge evidence. The fake CT won't because he is on a mission of deception, but the reaL CT believes in belief.

This idea stems from an article @Mauro referenced a while back, that starts with Carl Sagans parable of the "dragon in my garage", and then considers why the claimant would keep up their claim even though they know there's no evidence for it.
Article:
Depending on how your childhood went, you may remember a time period when you first began to doubt Santa Claus's existence, but you still believed that you were supposed to believe in Santa Claus, so you tried to deny the doubts. As Daniel Dennett observes, where it is difficult to believe a thing, it is often much easier to believe that you ought to believe it. What does it mean to believe that the Ultimate Cosmic Sky is both perfectly blue and perfectly green? The statement is confusing; it's not even clear what it would mean to believe it—what exactly would be believed, if you believed. You can much more easily believe that it is proper, that it is good and virtuous and beneficial, to believe that the Ultimate Cosmic Sky is both perfectly blue and perfectly green. Dennett calls this "belief in belief."

It explains why we often have a hard time arguing with CTists: while we discuss their (and our) beliefs, their reasons for the belief-in-belief remain unaddressed (and they might not even be aware of these reasons).

But I don't know how to distinguish that from someone who's paid to promote a particular message.

Vaclav Havel, as Czechoslovakian anti-communist dissident, has proposed that this belief-in-belief also works politically:
Article:
The greengrocer's tale

The practical result of the cross-border meeting was a joint collection of essays. One was Mr Havel's: "The Power of the Powerless", a reflection on the mind of a greengrocer who obediently puts a poster "among the onions and carrots" urging "Workers of the World—Unite!" In gentle, ironic but scathing prose, Mr Havel exposed the lies and cowardice that made possible the communist grip on power. The greengrocer puts up the poster partly out of habit, partly because everyone else does it, and partly out of fear of the consequences if he does not. Just as the "Good Soldier Svejk" encapsulated the cowardly absurdity of life in the Austro-Hungarian army, Mr Havel's greengrocer epitomised the petty humiliations of "normalised" Czechoslovakia.

Yet the greengrocer would balk if he were told to display a poster saying: "I am afraid and therefore unquestioningly obedient."
 
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I think it can be very difficult to figure out whether an apparent conspiracy theorist is part of a disinformation campaign. Both the "sincere" and the fake CT won't acknowledge evidence. The fake CT won't because he is on a mission of deception, but the reaL CT believes in belief.

This idea stems from an article @Mauro referenced a while back, that starts with Carl Sagans parable of the "dragon in my garage", and then considers why the claimant would keep up their claim even though they know there's no evidence for it.
Article:
Depending on how your childhood went, you may remember a time period when you first began to doubt Santa Claus's existence, but you still believed that you were supposed to believe in Santa Claus, so you tried to deny the doubts. As Daniel Dennett observes, where it is difficult to believe a thing, it is often much easier to believe that you ought to believe it. What does it mean to believe that the Ultimate Cosmic Sky is both perfectly blue and perfectly green? The statement is confusing; it's not even clear what it would mean to believe it—what exactly would be believed, if you believed. You can much more easily believe that it is proper, that it is good and virtuous and beneficial, to believe that the Ultimate Cosmic Sky is both perfectly blue and perfectly green. Dennett calls this "belief in belief."

It explains why we often have a hard time arguing with CTists: while we discuss their (and our) beliefs, their reasons for the belief-in-belief remain unaddressed (and they might not even be aware of these reasons).

But I don't know how to distinguish that from someone who's paid to promote a particular message.

Vaclav Havel, as Czechoslovakian anti-communist dissident, has proposed that this belief-in-belief also works politically:
Article:
The greengrocer's tale

The practical result of the cross-border meeting was a joint collection of essays. One was Mr Havel's: "The Power of the Powerless", a reflection on the mind of a greengrocer who obediently puts a poster "among the onions and carrots" urging "Workers of the World—Unite!" In gentle, ironic but scathing prose, Mr Havel exposed the lies and cowardice that made possible the communist grip on power. The greengrocer puts up the poster partly out of habit, partly because everyone else does it, and partly out of fear of the consequences if he does not. Just as the "Good Soldier Svejk" encapsulated the cowardly absurdity of life in the Austro-Hungarian army, Mr Havel's greengrocer epitomised the petty humiliations of "normalised" Czechoslovakia.

Yet the greengrocer would balk if he were told to display a poster saying: "I am afraid and therefore unquestioningly obedient."
This hits on a fantastic lesson the emerging public practice here has not progressed far into yet, and that's embracing the messaging side. I mentioned it in another post, and it's not a bad thing, not suppose to be framed that way, but our audiences do an absolutely horrendous job at communicating with each other. Very rarely are things built to resonate between the groups, they end up being put forward in a way that is adversarial and leads to debates or arguments. For us, these tend to rest on logic and factual processes, the issue is they've reached their conclusion through a different cognitive path and also believe they've come into their view in the same frame. As sad as it is, due to context, the onus on messaging there is on our portions of the larger community, not the "CTists".

Going on what I was talking about prior, the largest set of public interaction we see here now is "fact checking", or basically, what we call debunking. This has taken a form, primarily, where the messaging is not really targeted to the audience the content is for, instead its built based off the interest of the participants in the messaging. This creates an issue where say, using a non-UFO example, we see reams of disinformation from Ukraine, meant for Ukrainians, being brought into American media and "fact checked" to Americans. This largely achieves nothing in terms of combatting the actual content, outside of providing the check to incidental viewership.
I think this is a very important lesson with a bit of adjustment, because our side of the community really favors these complex in-depth studies "debunking" incidents. It's fantastic we can do that and they're interesting to read, to us. When presented to those "CTists", we're going to come off the same as we see them, and their emotional pathways are going to remain predominate. In terms of effects, this will work the strongest with our own audiences and those not hard aligned to either audience.

There's also another thing, this I forget the actual term for, I believe there is one that references it, but with a majority of people, if you originally believe something false and come to recognize the reality of it, elements of that original false belief are likely to remain still that don't necessarily negate the new reality based view but influence your behavior and/or attitude. A fantastic example of this is 9/11, if we look at a micro example, the whole "US govt did it" narrative has actually lost interest, attention, and interaction (albeit hard to gauge belief) and instead, as information about Saudi Arabia has surfaced more, we have seen that narrative split into (1) US govt participated by allowing Saudi Arabia to do it and we knew, or alternatively, (2) that we did not know originally, but have done little to go after Saudi Arabia for it. The progression to this new set finely rests on incongruities and falsities with the root claim of US govt doing it being reasoned to CTists - even if their progress into following a new narrative is just as conspiracized.
 
There's also another thing, this I forget the actual term for, I believe there is one that references it, but with a majority of people, if you originally believe something false and come to recognize the reality of it, elements of that original false belief are likely to remain still that don't necessarily negate the new reality based view but influence your behavior and/or attitude.

Can anyone provide a reference for this?
I guess we've all read or heard about people grudgingly "backsliding" to a potentially more tenable position when their initial claims or arguments are shown to be incorrect (or undesirable/ unhelpful).

But if someone believes that a specific past belief that they held was false, as opposed to feigning a change in belief for whatever reason (or perhaps going along with a consensus that they don't personally agree with), are we saying that their behaviour is nevertheless influenced to a significant extent by their formerly-held incorrect belief?
 
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