David Grusch's DOPSR Cleared Statement and IG Complaint

[MapperGuy]

Advocatus diaboli:
1) it works in the movies (esp. mafia movies) because it makes others afraid to talk
2) they make it look like an accident (and therefore any accident could be a murder attempt)
3) this secret is so big that conventional methods don't suffice (and common sense no longer applies)

You're calling it "tall tale", I've called it hearsay.
Grusch's lawyer told him what to say to avoid looking like an accessory after the fact.

Spoiler: Benjamin Franklin

"Three May Keep a Secret if Two are Dead"
— Benjamin Franklin, "Poor Richard's Almanach" (1735)

​

1) It works in the movies because everyone knows why they were killed. Has the CIA announced publicly recently they've killed US citizens in the US for leaking? Not that I have heard.
So people don't know to be afraid.

2) Make it look like an accident?
So again people don't know to be afraid because they don't know the death was in retaliation for leaking.

3)A secret so big common sense no longer applies?
So you think you know ALL of the secrets the government has and this one is the biggest?

Talk of the government killing to keep secrets is talked about outside the Intel Community, not inside of it.

 

[MapperGuy]

Does he? The basic complaint is 2 parts.

1. Grusch claims to have found evidence of programs that were misappropriating funds and not under government oversight.

Remember, originally his big complaint is that he was not read into some programs to the level he thought he should be. He felt that as a representative of the UAPTF, he was to be giving access to ALL programs that MIGHT be UAP related. IIRC, that resulted in him filing a whistleblower complaint with IG of the DoD because he was denied access to programs that were being hidden from him. That complaint didn't go anywhere and Grusch claimed he suffered retaliation because he filed the complaint.

2. Grusch then filed a second whistleblower complaint with the IG of the IC about the supposed retaliation suffered from the first whistleblower complaint.

So, does the IGIC need to know about recovered UFO programs and aliens to find some of Grusch's complaint credible? I would argue not necessarily. Does the IG think Grusch had a good reason to believe, rightly or wrongly, that there were some programs being hidden and misusing funds and if so, was he unfairly treated because of that?

That is, Grusch may have been denied access to programs he should have been granted access to or was properly denied access too that he felt were misusing money and beyond government oversight and he raised concerns over that. If his claims were not taken seriously and he was then retaliated against for them, his complaint would be credible. Note, in this case the programs in question could be completely legit and NOT out of government oversight or misusing funds, they were just beyond Grusch's access.

He could have been unfairly treated, or even convinced he was treated unfairly when he wasn't, about something he believed, recovered UFOs and aliens, but was not true. His complaint could be credible.

And lastly, credible doesn't mean true. It means it's worth looking into. As @Duke pointed out above, if the IG finds in Grusch's favor he may be entiltled to back pay and compensation. As most of this thread is about inferring things from vague statements and Grusch has not made any claims of such success to date, one could argue the IG has NOT found in his favor. Yet.

Knowing when to stop asking questions is one of the important lessons to learn working in the Intel Community. If someone wants you to know they will tell you, otherwise buzz off.

Grusch insisting on (or demanding) access to documents and programs he was not read into could be a huge red flag. Nobody in the Intel business gets to decide for themselves what information they are entitled too. They can ask for information, but if the custodians of that program/information say no, that's it. My guess (and its only a guess) is that he was not taking no for an answer, and was pushing back against the "no" answer. Which could lead to his security office being notified/warned that he was seeking access to information he was not entitled too. This in turn would lead to his supervisor being talked too.

Why Grusch would be given the UAPTF job is also curious, he had just gotten hired at NGA, was working at a remote location not a main NGA facility, and does not appear to have an imagery intelligence background. Not the sort of background that you would expect for position as liason between NGA and the rest of the UAPTF, because of his unfamiliarity with NGA and all of its many missions. Was he hired specifically for the UAPTF task, or was he hired for an administrative position, similar to those he had successfully held elsewhere. Being hired for one task, and suddenly spending all your time on another, could lead to friction with his supervisor.

Problems with security and with your supervisor might lead to problems, including potential clearance revocation and firing. Problems which might lead someone to file IG complaints in an effort to keep clearance and job.

And where does he claim to have gotten his hands on the documents proving the financial hanky-panky? Government funding documents are massive, and would take a team of accountants months to analyze, if they could ever get their hands on them. But somehow he did, and managed to ferret out the subterfuge? Seems unlikely.

 

[John J.]

I think this confirms, there is a secret program operating without oversight

No, it confirms what Congressman Eric Burlison thinks.

 

[NorCal Dave]

If these points are accurate, it would be interesting to know what the very senior officials who comprised the team made of him. The audacity of a relatively junior officer to invite himself to lecture them on how UFOs needed to be investigated must have generated some intriguing commentary.

Just to follow up on Dukes thread.

From the Black Vault article:

The documents also reveal Grusch’s vision for a “Strategic Anomaly Resolution Office,” dedicated to investigating UAPs and other strategic anomalies.

Accompanying this release was a PowerPoint presentation, notable for its lack of redactions or classification markings, which does raise the question on if it was an official PowerPoint presentation, or a “briefing” created by Grusch himself on his own time to pitch to the DoD.

The presentation included a never-before-seen seal for the proposed office, and a breakdown of how the office would operate and what it would attempt to accomplish.

Content from External Source

Note this is Grusch's "vision" of UFO office and that it's possible the briefing might have been created "on his own time". Sounds a lot like AATIP, Elizondo and Stratton running a UFO office at DIA on their own after hours. Stratton was running the UAPTF when Grusch was there.

But is it Grusch's "vision"? From the article:

Just six weeks after Grusch gave this idea in a Top Secret meeting with the DoD/IG, Christopher Mellon, former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence in the Clinton and George W. Bush administrations, opined the exact same idea for an office in a July 2021 blog post titled, “Suggestions for Congress on the UAP Issue.”

“I therefore suggest framing the issue broadly to give the troops a place to send all manner of strange and unexpected phenomena that don’t readily fit in an existing job jar,” Mellon wrote. “Perhaps something like ‘The Office of Strategic Anomaly Resolution’ that could become an analytic starting point for other anomalies.”

Content from External Source

https://www.theblackvault.com/docum...nterview-with-ufo-whistleblower-david-grusch/

Sounds more like a concerted effort by the usual suspects.

Here is a link to the FOIA pages released, I'm just starting to read them:

https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/dod/DODOIG-2023-001013.pdf

Be interesting to see how this squares with what Congressman Burlison is saying in @Curious George post #440

The plot thickens.

 

[NorCal Dave]

Sorry to just throw s*&t out there. I'm usually not a stream of consciousness kinda guy, BUT as I was reading the afore mentioned Black Vault article this jumped out at me:

2. (U) Major Grusch stated that (redacted) . He stated that he “has been studying UAPs for 15 years” and that he serves as the NRO liaison to the UAP Task Force

Content from External Source

https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/dod/DODOIG-2023-001013.pdf

Studying UAPs for 15 years is NOT what he has been saying to everybody else.

 

[Ann K]

I think this confirms, there is a secret program operating without oversight, and people are being threatened to keep the secret.

This is an opinion from one member of the House (Burlison) who used "I would say that" and "in my mind" once each, and "I think that" four times in that single paragraph. That's rather flimsy "confirmation".

 

[NorCal Dave]

Sorry, sorry, to again just throw this out there, BUT this is a slide from Grusch's presentation:


https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/dod/DODOIG-2023-001013.pdf

As his talk was UFO/UAPs this sound like a Federal "reverse-engineering" Lab he's proposing. That assumes there are UFOs to reverse engineer. Mabe this Black Vault release could use its own thread.

 

[Duke]

Sorry, sorry, to again just throw this out there, BUT this is a slide from Grusch's presentation:


https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/dod/DODOIG-2023-001013.pdf

As his talk was UFO/UAPs this sound like a Federal "reverse-engineering" Lab he's proposing. That assumes there are UFOs to reverse engineer. Mabe this Black Vault release could use its own thread.

When I saw that slide, my first thought was the Government Owned, Contractor Operated (GoCo) lab Maj Grusch was advocating for creates the same "DoD hiding behind the contractors who can't be FOIAed" scenario he and others in ufology have long demonized. Could it be he has no problem with that situation as long as he's one of those in the know and potentially calling the shots?

A GOCO facility is a model used by the Army when they “hire” a privately owned company to operate the site that they “own.” These facilities are manufacturing operations and were started shortly after the beginning of World War II. These sites are considered a key part of the nation’s organic industrial base as they play a vital role in the nation’s defense.

Content from External Source

https://www.baesystems.com/en-us/feature/government-owned-contractor-operated-101

There are a lot of GoCo facilities in DoD, including USAF Plant 42 in Palmdale where the B-2 was built and the B-21 is being built.

 

[Mendel]

Sorry to just throw s*&t out there. I'm usually not a stream of consciousness kinda guy, BUT as I was reading the afore mentioned Black Vault article this jumped out at me:

2. (U) Major Grusch stated that (redacted) . He stated that he “has been studying UAPs for 15 years” and that he serves as the NRO liaison to the UAP Task Force

Content from External Source

https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/dod/DODOIG-2023-001013.pdf

Studying UAPs for 15 years is NOT what he has been saying to everybody else.

Compare his DOPSR statement:

About the Author. Mr Grush has served as an intelligence officer for over 14 years
[...]
However in December 2017 I was reading the New York Times and a story caught my eye claiming a UFO (UAP) program called the Advanced Aerospace threat identification Program (AATIP) was being run out of an office in the Pentagon I was familiar with, the office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence and Security (OUSD(I&S)). I had no idea this topic was being taken seriously by the department, as I had given very little thoughts on UFOs or so-called “extraterrestrials” in my entire adult life.

 

[Mendel]

Why Grusch would be given the UAPTF job is also curious, he had just gotten hired at NGA, was working at a remote location not a main NGA facility, and does not appear to have an imagery intelligence background. Not the sort of background that you would expect for position as liason between NGA and the rest of the UAPTF, because of his unfamiliarity with NGA and all of its many missions.

I imagine his boss thinking, "we need to delegate someone's time to these UFO nuts, who is the most dispensable person here?"

 

[Mendel]

Today we have some clarity on exactly what was confirmed by the ICIG. This is pretty direct.

So safe to say, what was in the SCIF was lending weight and credibility moreso to David Grusch's claims, and for you and your colleagues, those go from being claims, or, wild claims to, to real substance?

Yeah, I would say that, to put it, to try to be clear, there's some validation of his claims on process, that, in the process that its difficult to get information to members of Congress, or that information is being witheld, I think that's been proven. I think that it's been proven prima facie, the fact that we are having a difficult time getting this information and we're seeking it, proves that claim.
In addition, you know I think that it's been proven his, what he said, the information's being compartmentalized, and that the information is, there's a culture of fear and intimation around this, so, I think that his claims about those are pretty bold claims, but they've, in my mind, been validated, enough that, it makes me wonder what else of his claims are true.

Content from External Source

Source: https://twitter.com/ufouapam/status/1747391681291509813


I think this confirms, there is a secret program operating without oversight, and people are being threatened to keep the secret.

(It's a bloody nuisance to quote your material when you won't use EX tags.)

Anyway.

"in the process that its difficult to get information to members of Congress, or that information is being witheld, I think that's been proven" describes that Grusch's DoD IG submission was canned. "get information to members of Congress" means someone intending to give them information and running into roadblocks, such as classification (need for a SCIF) or the rejection of submissions.

"the information's being compartmentalized," describes Grusch requesting access to a classified program and not receiving it, which sounds fair to me, and does not imply lack of oversight.

"there's a culture of fear and intimation around this" describes Grusch's claims of whistleblower reprisal being credible. It does not confirm that "people are being threatened to keep the secret".

In short, I don't think this evidence supports your conclusion.

 

[Mendel]

Wrong again.

The quote below states that the IC IG needs to have first hand information. Your quote states that the person who files the complaint doesn't necessarily need it.

"In order to find an urgent concern “credible,” the IC IG must be inpossession of reliable, first-hand information"

Nope. You're quoting a request for information from an external body. I quoted a press release from the IGIC.

You quote the ICIG quoting language from the old whistleblower submission form. The ICIG press release you are quoting from states that this language no longer appears on that form because it was misleading and inaccurate. The US senators (and implicitly their legal staff) assert that there is no legal need for the ICIG to have first hand information. (This is me using them as authority.) The ICIG implies in my quote from that press release that it is possible, but simply "harder" and "less likely", to find a report credible that is based on second-hand information alone.

However, the point is moot, as post #2 in this thread contains a copy of Grusch's ICIG submission, where he asserts specific direct knowledge. It's just not direct knowledge of UFOs or UFO programs, the best he can do is "UAP-related" with the older, non-UFO meaning of "UAP".

 

[FatPhil]

This is an opinion from one member of the House (Burlison) who used "I would say that" and "in my mind" once each, and "I think that" four times in that single paragraph. That's rather flimsy "confirmation".

Yet it was introduced to us thusly: "Today we have some clarity on exactly what was confirmed by the ICIG. This is pretty direct."
Clarity? Nope
Exact? Nope
Direct? Nope

"Here's a rather flimsy 'confirmation':" would have been a far better introduction. I see confirmation bias - he's seeing what he wants to see in it.

 

[Eburacum]

I think it's on the record though that a huge number of UFO sightings were caused by test flights of Lockheed's top secret high altitude spy aircraft? So there's a mundane core of truth to this.

We have a thread on this particular statement;
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/cl...o-reports-in-the-50s-and-60s-in-the-us.13063/
it appears to be hyperbole, but the most likely interpretation is that around half of all unexplained UFO reports at that time may have been associated with the OXCART program and related flights (not half of all reports).

 

[Stryer]

I imagine his boss thinking, "we need to delegate someone's time to these UFO nuts, who is the most dispensable person here?"

Maybe we should move away from the term UFO nuts. We're not going to figure this out by adding to the stigma.

 

[Mauro]

Maybe we should move away from the term UFO nuts. We're not going to figure this out by adding to the stigma.

Yes, but, for the sake of completeness, "UFO nuts" was first used in this thread by @Curious George in post #325, who used it while trying to argue in favor of Grutsch's claims being reliable.

 

[2pint]

Yes, but, for the sake of completeness, "UFO nuts" was first used in this thread by @Curious George in post #325, who used it while trying to argue in favor of Grutsch's claims being reliable.

Kinda besides the point. Shows bias and takes away from what are very valid arguments being made.

 

[Mendel]

Kinda besides the point. Shows bias and takes away from what are very valid arguments being made.

I was using the term to indicate that Grusch's then boss may have been biased against the very important work that the UAPTF was undertaking.
To show bias was the intent, that's why I put the words in my fictional character's mouth.

 

[2pint]

I was using the term to indicate that Grusch's then boss may have been biased against the very important work that the UAPTF was undertaking.
To show bias was the intent, that's why I put the words in my fictional character's mouth.

Ok, then perhaps let your fictional character know to stop using that term. I don’t want to get stuck on silliness tbh. The point that using that term, whether in a fictional story or not, doesn’t help.

 

[John J.]

When I saw that slide, my first thought was the Government Owned, Contractor Operated (GoCo) lab Maj Grusch was advocating for creates the same "DoD hiding behind the contractors who can't be FOIAed" scenario he and others in ufology have long demonized.

As his talk was UFO/UAPs this sound like a Federal "reverse-engineering" Lab he's proposing. That assumes there are UFOs to reverse engineer.

I think the slide, and the observations made by NorCal Dave and Duke, are important.
Grusch might not be the "ingenue" who has stumbled across a great secret (exotic artefacts being held and studied).
I'm wondering if he presupposed that the US held "unusual" materials, and his proposal, seal and all, was his attempt to be in on it.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Maybe we should move away from the term UFO nuts.

Kind of agree, but the term was used in a context where it wasn't advanced as the author's personal viewpoint.

Sometimes I say "UFO enthusiasts" to mean people who firmly believe some UFOs / UAP are objectively real artefacts of a non-human intelligence. Not a great term, though; I like reading stuff about UFOs, so to many people I'd be a UFO enthusiast.

Whatever, it seems many UFO enthusiasts hope that David Grusch turns out to be a kernel colonel of truth.

 

[NorCal Dave]

I think the slide, and the observations made by NorCal Dave and Duke, are important.
Grusch might not be the "ingenue" who has stumbled across a great secret (exotic artefacts being held and studied).
I'm wondering if he presupposed that the US held "unusual" materials, and his proposal, seal and all, was his attempt to be in on it.

Yes, but I think more importantly is Melon giving nearly the exact same program suggestion with the EXACT same name:

Just six weeks after Grusch gave this idea in a Top Secret meeting with the DoD/IG, Christopher Mellon, former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence in the Clinton and George W. Bush administrations, opined the exact same idea for an office in a July 2021 blog post titled, “Suggestions for Congress on the UAP Issue.”

“I therefore suggest framing the issue broadly to give the troops a place to send all manner of strange and unexpected phenomena that don’t readily fit in an existing job jar,” Mellon wrote. “Perhaps something like ‘The Office of Strategic Anomaly Resolution’ that could become an analytic starting point for other anomalies.”

Content from External Source

I haven't had time to read the blog yet, but with them both using the same name, it appears this is being orchestrated, it's not just some idea Grusch cooked up on his own.

Note how both of them use the "Oh I don't know, maybe something like...ah..like...ah The Office of Strategic Anomaly Resolution, or something like that" schtick as if the name just came off the top of their head. More disturbing is that the All-domain Anomoly Resolution Office (AARO) we ended up with is very close, suggesting that these guys have at least a few ears.

I'm speculating that Grusch is the part of this group on the inside along with Stratton at an earlier point and maybe a few others, while Melon, Nell and others are on the outside. https://www.theblackvault.com/docum...o-whistleblower-david-grusch/#google_vignette

 

[Stryer]

I think the slide, and the observations made by NorCal Dave and Duke, are important.
Grusch might not be the "ingenue" who has stumbled across a great secret (exotic artefacts being held and studied).
I'm wondering if he presupposed that the US held "unusual" materials, and his proposal, seal and all, was his attempt to be in on it.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Kind of agree, but the term was used in a context where it wasn't advanced as the author's personal viewpoint.

Sometimes I say "UFO enthusiasts" to mean people who firmly believe some UFOs / UAP are objectively real artefacts of a non-human intelligence. Not a great term, though; I like reading stuff about UFOs, so to many people I'd be a UFO enthusiast.

Whatever, it seems many UFO enthusiasts hope that David Grusch turns out to be a kernel colonel of truth.

Yep it says more about the person using it to be honest.

Well I think Grusch may be telling the truth in terms of SAPs illegally hidden from Congressional oversight and that he was the subject of reprisals. I have no evidence for the other far out stuff he is saying though. Although I did support the recent legislation in an attempt to find out.

 

[Tezcatlipoca]

Yes, but I think more importantly is Melon giving nearly the exact same program suggestion with the EXACT same name:

Just six weeks after Grusch gave this idea in a Top Secret meeting with the DoD/IG, Christopher Mellon, former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence in the Clinton and George W. Bush administrations, opined the exact same idea for an office in a July 2021 blog post titled, “Suggestions for Congress on the UAP Issue.”

“I therefore suggest framing the issue broadly to give the troops a place to send all manner of strange and unexpected phenomena that don’t readily fit in an existing job jar,” Mellon wrote. “Perhaps something like ‘The Office of Strategic Anomaly Resolution’ that could become an analytic starting point for other anomalies.”

Content from External Source

I haven't had time to read the blog yet, but with them both using the same name, it appears this is being orchestrated, it's not just some idea Grusch cooked up on his own.

Note how both of them use the "Oh I don't know, maybe something like...ah..like...ah The Office of Strategic Anomaly Resolution, or something like that" schtick as if the name just came off the top of their head. More disturbing is that the All-domain Anomoly Resolution Office (AARO) we ended up with is very close, suggesting that these guys have at least a few ears.

I'm speculating that Grusch is the part of this group on the inside along with Stratton at an earlier point and maybe a few others, while Melon, Nell and others are on the outside. https://www.theblackvault.com/docum...o-whistleblower-david-grusch/#google_vignette

I've been cautious with considering Grusch part of this group but it is appearing more and more likely. I've spoken before about Mellon and Stratton admitting to conducting an influence campaign - possibly with the intent of getting UAPTF made? Nells little "disclosure plan" though makes me think they may have had a broader intent in mind.

 

[2pint]

Yep it says more about the person using it to be honest.

Well I think Grusch may be telling the truth in terms of SAPs illegally hidden from Congressional oversight and that he was the subject of reprisals. I have no evidence for the other far out stuff he is saying though. Although I did support the recent legislation in an attempt to find out.

Yep. It’s just not nice to insinuate someone has mental health issues due to whatever they may or may not believe. Stigmatises the subject of UAP and mental health in one swoop.

I’m in agreement re Grusch’s claims too. It’s evident something is being hidden from Congress, what that is, none of us on this forum know. Most likely not NHI but his claims are certainly intriguing. Honestly felt like the legislation was the best opportunity we’ve had yet to finally put this topic to bed (or not), yet it appears others i.e Mike Turner et al did not. Which tbh just raises more questions and unfortunately lends more credence to their being an activate conspiracy of sorts.

 

[Mendel]

It’s just not nice to insinuate someone has mental health issues due to whatever they may or may not believe.

Compare:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/de/worterbuch/englisch/nut


If you think someone insulted some else on this forum, hit the "report" link on their post and let the staff sort it out. No need to derail a discussion.

 

[Duke]

Yep. It’s just not nice to insinuate someone has mental health issues due to whatever they may or may not believe. Stigmatises the subject of UAP and mental health in one swoop.

Please elaborate on this, particularly who exactly "insinuated" he had mental issues due to whatever he "may or may not believe." Grusch himself admitted he suffers from a mental illness, PTSD, but only after a journalist dug into his background using legal, FOIA actions and found police records of alcohol abuse, suicidal threats, and institutionalization.

What you should be asking is if "investigative journalists" like Corbell, Knapp, and Coulthart knew about Grusch's issues, but chose to ignore or hide them at Grusch's expense. Further, if they didn't know, why not? Maybe because of the old adage, "If you can't stand the answer, don't ask the question."

I’m in agreement re Grusch’s claims too. It’s evident something is being hidden from Congress, what that is, none of us on this forum know. Most likely not NHI but his claims are certainly intriguing. Honestly felt like the legislation was the best opportunity we’ve had yet to finally put this topic to bed (or not), yet it appears others i.e Mike Turner et al did not. Which tbh just raises more questions and unfortunately lends more credence to their being an activate conspiracy of sorts.

"Evident" to who? That claim was investigated by the ICIG and found to be without merit. Grusch has testified to Congress about such claims, as did the ICIG last week. If the claims were "evident," as in having had evidence to support the claims, why has there been no legal action undertaken through UCMJ, the Justice Department, or even Congress for contempt/perjury? Oh wait.....it's an active conspiracy.

 

[Mendel]

I’m in agreement re Grusch’s claims too. It’s evident something is being hidden from Congress, what that is, none of us on this forum know.

"Evident" to who? That claim was investigated by the ICIG and found to be without merit.

How do you know that?
I have no idea which claims of Grusch the ICIG thought deserve merit; apparently, some do.
Unfortunately, Grusch has chosen not to publish the ICIG's response to his complaint.

 

[Duke]

How do you know that?
I have no idea which claims of Grusch the ICIG thought deserve merit; apparently, some do.
Unfortunately, Grusch has chosen not to publish the ICIG's response to his complaint.

Perhaps too strong a statement on my part, but primarily because, as I stated in my previous post, no legal action has been taken as a result of that complaint. If there had been, I think we'd have heard about it, even if through leaks and/or for political gain. We wouldn't be hearing those "I would say that," "in my mind," and "I think that," comments from the likes of Rep Burlison as @Ann K pointed out in #446 above. Being the guy/gal who could claim to have brought down the MIC and potentially confirmed the existence of NHI would be the stuff of which legends are made.

But as I said initially/multiple times, and you repeated, Grusch and his handlers have opted not to release the IG report/findings of that complaint. Even a heavily redacted report/findings (omitting names, program identifiers, funding etc.) that support(s) that claim would likely have been released by Team Grusch to get credibility they seek. Silence isn't only golden, it can also be detrimental when the burden of proof rests with those making unsubstantiated claims.

 

[Mendel]

I think that's partly why I got stuck on that "UFO nuts" comment when truth be told, it wasn't an insult or aimed in that way

You're not the first and won't be the last.
We'll be happy to have you back when you feel up to it!

 

[NorCal Dave]

Well I think Grusch may be telling the truth in terms of SAPs illegally hidden from Congressional oversight and that he was the subject of reprisals.

I don't know if that's true or not, but considering Grusch and Mellon were both proposing "The Office of Strategic Anomaly Resolution" at almost the same time with one being public and one in classified hearings it appears these 2 were in communication with each other. And Mellon was working with Elizondo. As such, Mellon's blog may give a hint at where to look for these hidden programs (bold by me, italics in original):

The resulting assessment was punctually delivered to Congress by the Director of National Intelligence (DNI) on June 25th, 2021. It confirmed what Lue Elizondo and I had been shouting from the rooftops for several years: Namely that there really are a variety of mysterious, highly advanced unidentified aircraft operating in restricted military airspace.

Content from External Source

The Air Force’s long history of squelching and distorting UAP information is such that any efforts on its part to impede the flow of information on the UAP subject should not be tolerated. Similarly, there are reports that Air Force OSI agents are trying to squelch UAP conversations on highly classified communications networks among cleared personnel. Firing or demoting those responsible would be more effective than issuing a memo banning the practice.

Content from External Source

In light of the stigma surrounding the issue, and USAF intransigence in particular, one of the first items on the agenda for both the Task Force and the oversight committees should be to determine how thorough and comprehensive the Task Force was in collecting UAP data from the DoD and IC services and agencies. Even if there are only a handful of missing cases, those cases could be game-changing depending on what activity was detected and how thoroughly the events were documented.

Content from External Source

There are a range of candidate organizations that could execute the mission well, some already reporting both to DoD and the IC and not under the control of the USAF where their progress is not likely to see the light of day. In that regard, it was extremely telling that in the very carefully worded unclassified report to Congress there was a very deliberate jab at the USAF which seems far more than any other service to have disdain for direction coming from the Office of the Secretary of Defense.

Content from External Source

I’ve heard that the memo from the Deputy Secretary of Defense establishing the UAPTF and mandating cooperation with it was largely ignored by the USAF which appears to still possess pertinent information on this topic it has not shared.

Content from External Source

https://www.christophermellon.net/post/possible-next-steps-for-congress-on-the-uap-issue

Mellon clearly had an ax to grind with the USAF in relation to UAPs and was claiming they were still withholding information from the UAPTF. Mellon (and Elizondo) was long since retired from the US Government by the time of the UAPTF, so how exactly he knew the USAF was withholding things from them is a bit of mystery, unless of course Stratton and maybe Grusch were sharing that info with him. IF so, was it they who had the ax to grind with the USAF? Stratton was Navy, but Grusch was AF, so was it his own branch that wasn't sharing things with him he thought they should have?

The rest of Mellon's blog is rather long and could maybe use a thread of its own. He makes some claim about an early warning ICBM radar system at Beal AFB being able to detect (or should have) the Nimitz TicTak as well as the drones that swarmed the USS Kidd. Among other things.

 

[Mendel]

The Air Force’s long history of squelching and distorting UAP information is such that any efforts on its part to impede the flow of information on the UAP subject should not be tolerated. Similarly, there are reports that Air Force OSI agents are trying to squelch UAP conversations on highly classified communications networks among cleared personnel. Firing or demoting those responsible would be more effective than issuing a memo banning the practice.

Content from External Source

I'd love to see the USAF's take on this.

 

[MapperGuy]

I've been cautious with considering Grusch part of this group but it is appearing more and more likely. I've spoken before about Mellon and Stratton admitting to conducting an influence campaign - possibly with the intent of getting UAPTF made? Nells little "disclosure plan" though makes me think they may have had a broader intent in mind.

The question I have is EXACTLY how did Grusch become a member of the UAPTF? Did he volunteer in response to a general NGA wide announcement asking for volunteers? If so why was he selected versus others with longer experience at NGA? Was he the only volunteer?
Or was he asked for specifically, by whomever was setting up the task force? If so how did they happen to know him, did they know him because of his previous contacts with some of the "usual suspects"? If so it brings up the question of if he got the job at NGA specifically to put himself into a position from which he could be brought into the UAPTF?

This is all starting to sound somewhat conspiracy-ish I know, but I am getting the impression the UAPTF was not just a group of random strangers brought together by chance.

 

[Curious George]

The question I have is EXACTLY how did Grusch become a member of the UAPTF?

He explained this in one of the biographies. He was told by his boss there was an opportunity, and he decided to take it to supplement his experience. He had no particular interest in it.

 

[Curious George]

A new article by Sean Kirkpatrick, former head of AARO, explains that there's NO evidence of UFO's, and all these stories are just recirculating the delusions of a few individuals:

A forthcoming investigational report from an office of the Pentagon has found no evidence of aliens, only allegations circulated repeatedly by UFO claim advocates

https://archive.ph/MfFMF
One problem with this article, is that it refers to the stories as having originated since the AATIP/AAWSAP program. However, the claims have existed since far before that.

this narrative has been simmering for years and is largely an outgrowth of a former program at the DOD’s Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) called the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program (AATIP), which was heavily influenced by a group of individuals associated with businessman and longtime ufologist Robert Bigelow, founder of Bigelow Aerospace.

 

[Rick Robson]

A new article by Sean Kirkpatrick, former head of AARO, explains that there's NO evidence of UFO's, and all these stories are just recirculating the delusions of a few individuals:

"A forthcoming investigational report from an office of the Pentagon has found no evidence of aliens, only allegations circulated repeatedly by UFO claim advocates"

https://archive.ph/MfFMF

Judging by what Kirkpatrick said there, am I wrong to imply he was assuming UFO advocates for the most part think they are Aliens?

 

[NorCal Dave]

He had no particular interest in it.

That's not what he told a bunch of higher ups in a closed classified meeting where he layed out his (or it seems more likely Chris Mellon and others) plan for a new UAPTF (bold by me):

1. (U) On July 12, 2021, we met with Major David Grusch to obtain information he had regarding our evaluation of the DoD’s actions taken in response to unidentified aerial phenomena (UAP). {Redacted(b) (6)} recommended that we speak to Major Grusch regarding the topic of our evaluation.


2. (U) Major Grusch stated that . {Redacted (b) (6)}He stated that he “has been studying UAPs for 15 years” and that he serves as the NRO liaison to the UAP Task Force.

Content from External Source

https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/dod/DODOIG-2023-001013.pdf

Sure be interesting to see who (b) (6) is in the redactions.

One problem with this article, is that it refers to the stories as having originated since the AATIP/AAWSAP program. However, the claims have existed since far before that.

Yes, but many of the people associated with AASWAP and Bigelow go back to the '90s and some further back than that. They also could be said to be responsible for ginning up anew many of the old claims.

Judging by what Kirkpatrick said there, am I wrong to imply he was assuming UFO advocates for the most part think they are Aliens?

Depends on who he's talking about. Lacatski, Kelleher, Stratton and others seem to think aliens, orbs, werewolves, ghost, UFOs, mutilated cattle, a strange contagion from SWR and a whole host of other stuff is all interrelated and part of an overarching "phenomenon".

 

[Mendel]

He explained this in one of the biographies. He was told by his boss there was an opportunity, and he decided to take it to supplement his experience. He had no particular interest in it.

Do you have a source for that?
That narrative contradicts Grusch's own written DOPSR-cleared bio:

However in December 2017 I was reading the New York Times and a story caught my eye claiming a UFO (UAP) program called the Advanced Aerospace threat identification Program (AATIP) was being run out of an office in the Pentagon I was familiar with, the office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence and Security (OUSD(I&S)). I had no idea this topic was being taken seriously by the department, as I had given very little thoughts on UFOs or so-called “extraterrestrials” in my entire adult life. Furthermore, I was formally educated in Physics and Astronomy and consider myself a very black-and-white intelligence officer requiring substantial empirical data to make high confidence assessments. Even after reading that article and performing a public-domain literature review, I was skeptical, this sounded to me as probably misidentified near-peer adversarial technology and observer bias. While working at the national reconnaissance office (NRO) in their operations centre as a USAF military reservist, I was asked by my boss if I'd like to be their representative for the newly formed Navy-led UAPTF

I agreed to join the UAPTF, hopefully to confirm a negative to prove this was all misidentification, witness error, or a flight of fantasy.

Content from External Source

This looks very much like a particular interest.

 

[Mendel]

A new article by Sean Kirkpatrick, former head of AARO, explains that there's NO evidence of UFO's, and all these stories are just recirculating the delusions of a few individuals:

A forthcoming investigational report from an office of the Pentagon has found no evidence of aliens, only allegations circulated repeatedly by UFO claim advocates

Content from External Source

https://archive.ph/MfFMF

Please tag external content properly, it's a nuisance to quote your posts.
Please do not use URL shorteners; Kirkpatrick's article is at https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/heres-what-i-learned-as-the-u-s-governments-ufo-hunter/
It is not true that Kirkpatrick attributes these baseless claims to "a few delusional individuals". You have seen above that the UFO community does not take allegations of insanity lightly, and it is unfair to accuse Kirkpatrick of making them when he has not.

One problem with this article, is that it refers to the stories as having originated since the AATIP/AAWSAP program. However, the claims have existed since far before that.

this narrative has been simmering for years and is largely an outgrowth of a former program at the DOD’s Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) called the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program (AATIP), which was heavily influenced by a group of individuals associated with businessman and longtime ufologist Robert Bigelow, founder of Bigelow Aerospace.

Content from External Source

The narrative Kirkpatrick refers to is this:

The conspiracists’ story goes something like this: The U.S. has been hiding and attempting to reverse engineer as many as 12 UAP/UFOs from as early as the 1960s and perhaps earlier. This great cover-up and conspiracy failed to produce any salient results, and consequently the effort was abandoned to some private sector defense contractors to continue the work. Sometime later, the story continues, those private sector contractors wanted to bring the whole program back under U.S. government (USG) auspices. Apparently, the CIA stopped this supposed transfer back to the USG.

Content from External Source

Finally, the key purveyors of this narrative have known one another for decades. In the early 2000s several members of this small group also participated in a study, erroneously characterized (by the same participants) as having been sponsored by the White House, on the possible societal impact of disclosing the existence of extraterrestrials to the public, with the authenticity of the abovementioned concealed government program taken as its baseline assumption. The think tank in question was a “futures” enterprise that often worked on fringe studies, and many of the individuals involved with the study also worked for Bigelow Aerospace in support of the AATIP program.

Content from External Source

Can you cite a source that puts the origin of this narrative outside the circle of Bigelow's associates and before AAWSAP (2007)?

 

[Mendel]

Scientific American, January 19, 2024, by ex-AARO director Sean Kirkpatrick: "Here’s What I Learned as the U.S. Government’s UFO Hunter", excerpts:

Article:

During a full-scale, year-long investigation of this story (which has been told and retold by a small group of interconnected believers and others with possibly less than honest intentions—none of whom have firsthand accounts of any of this), AARO discovered a few things, and none were about aliens.

First, no record exists of any president or living DOD or intelligence community leader knowing about this alleged program, nor any congressional committee having such knowledge. This should speak volumes if this case were following typical procedure because it is inconceivable that a program of such import would not ever have been briefed to the 50 to 100 people at the top of the USG over the decades of its existence.

[...]

In 2009 then senator Harry Reid asked the secretary of defense (SECDEF) to set up a SAP (special access program) to protect the alleged UAP/UFO material that AATIP proponents believed the USG was hiding. The SECDEF declined to do so after a review by the Office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence (OUSDI), and DIA concluded that not only did no such material exist, but taxpayer money was being inappropriately spent on paranormal research at Skinwalker Ranch in Utah. [...] After the negative response by SECDEF, Senator Reid then enlisted the help of then senator Joseph Lieberman to request that the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) set up an SAP for the same purpose. The administrative SAP proposal package was informed by the same individuals who had been associated with AATIP.

[...]

One of my last acts before retiring was to sign AARO’s Historical Record Report Volume 1, which is currently being prepared for delivery to Congress and the public. The report demonstrates that many of the circulating allegations described above derive from inadvertent or unauthorized disclosures of legitimate U.S. programs or related R&D that have nothing to do with extraterrestrial issues or technology. Some are misrepresentations, and some derive from pure, unsupported beliefs. In many respects, the narrative is a textbook example of circular reporting, with each person relaying what they heard, but the information often ultimately being sourced to the same small group of individuals.

[...] As of the time of my departure, none, let me repeat, none of the conspiracy-minded “whistleblowers” in the public eye had elected to come to AARO to provide their “evidence” and statement for the record despite numerous invitations. Anyone that would rather be sensationalist in the public eye than bring their evidence to the one organization established in law with all of the legal process and security framework established to protect them, their privacy, and the information and to investigate and report out findings is suspect.

Source: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/heres-what-i-learned-as-the-u-s-governments-ufo-hunter/

Sean Kirkpatrick says unequivocally that Grusch's UFO claims are entirely without merit.​

There are no UFOs (or bodies), neither with defense contractors nor with the USG itself.​

 

[MapperGuy]

He explained this in one of the biographies. He was told by his boss there was an opportunity, and he decided to take it to supplement his experience. He had no particular interest in it.

It would be unusual for a job at NGA to be staffed that way, but not impossible. It suggests that the task was expected to be an "hour a week" other-duties-as-asigned task, not a full-time job. Full-time jobs would be announced to this bosses entire staff, asking for volunteers. There are always people looking to take a break from their current duties who might jump at the chance.
It also brings up the question of why his (or his bosses actually) team was selected as the home for that particular assignment. NGA Colorado Springs is not a large office, other locations would have a lot more flexibility to handle a new task (especially if it was expected to be a full-time job).

As to "he had no particular interest in it" that is not plausible given all of the events since.