David Grusch's DOPSR Cleared Statement and IG Complaint

I beg your pardon, but again, would you please provide some quote to back up his claim?

Posted by @Mendel, June 6 1983 (apologies to all; for some reason the "Reply" function didn't work for me for this post)

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/da...-bodies-of-non-human-origin.12977/post-291197

via archive.org because of geo-lock:
Article:
In his time at the UAP task force, Grusch said the group was refused access to a crash retrieval program.

“These are retrieving non-human origin technical vehicles, call it spacecraft if you will, non-human exotic origin vehicles that have either landed or crashed,” Grusch said.

According to Grusch, that includes spacecraft from quite a number of other species.

“I thought it was totally nuts and I thought at first I was being deceived, it was a ruse,” Grusch told Coulthart. “People started to confide in me. Approach me. I have plenty of senior, former, intelligence officers that came to me, many of which I knew almost my whole career, that confided in me that they were part of a program.”

Grusch said those officials named the program, which he had never heard of before.

“They told me, based on their oral testimony, and they provided me documents and other proof, that there was in fact a program that the UAP Task Force was not read into,” he said. [...]

NewsNation has confirmed Grusch’s credentials and resume, but has not seen or verified the alleged proof he said he provided to investigators. Grusch said he can’t show NewsNation the evidence for national security reasons.

Grusch also said he has not seen photos of the alleged craft himself, but has spoken extensively with other intelligence officials who have.

Source: https://web.archive.org/web/2023060...litary-whistleblowe-us-ufo-retrieval-program/
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(My emphasis added).
Grusch has stated that he hasn't seen a single photo, let alone physical evidence, of alien craft or other artefacts of interest.
I believe him.
He's seen "documents and other proof" that there was a program that he didn't have access to. But we haven't seen that proof; it remains hearsay. It would seem likely that those who provided Grusch with this material told him about crashed/ retrieved UFOs and their (dead) crew.

If we start ascribing additional knowledge about UFOs etc. to those who deny having it, e.g. saying Grusch has seen physical evidence when he has said that he hasn't, we're on the edge of a rather unhelpful rabbit hole. (As well as going back to material discussed early on in the Grusch saga).
 
A chance meeting today with a former DoD coworker brought to mind an aspect of Grusch's IG "reprisal" complaint I hadn't considered previously. If the ICIG did/does does find he was a victim of reprisals, that could be grounds for reinstatement to his previous position. He'd also probably be entitled to his salary (somewhere in the $150K-$175K range) since he resigned, as well as benefits he would have accrued in that time.
 
The problem here is that we're talking about probability on that issue. Yes indeed, it's not a requisite to have a degree in physics in order to differentiate what's nonsense/fantasized from what has some truth to it. However, no doubt you ought to possess at least a basic physics knowledge to make you less prone to being deceived or deliberately misled for that matter.
If you don't want to be misled, ask a magician, they're experts in misdirection—physicists aren't, especially if they're willing to believe in stuff not covered by their training.
Here's 4 minutes of physicists at Lawrence Livermore Labs being misled. I think thete's a Randi story about MIT (Stanford?) as well, but I couldn't find it quickly.

Source: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SbwWL5ezA4g
 
If we start ascribing additional knowledge about UFOs etc. to those who deny having it, e.g. saying Grusch has seen physical evidence when he has said that he hasn't, we're on the edge of a rather unhelpful rabbit hole. (As well as going back to material discussed early on in the Grusch saga).

Okay then, but I thought Metabunk members wouldn't usually do this kind of mistake, I see that I'm wrong then.
 
If you don't want to be misled, ask a magician, they're experts in misdirection—physicists aren't, especially if they're willing to believe in stuff not covered by their training.
Here's 4 minutes of physicists at Lawrence Livermore Labs being misled. I think thete's a Randi story about MIT (Stanford?) as well, but I couldn't find it quickly.

Source: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SbwWL5ezA4g


Don't see a plausible reason there to change the probability that I was referring to on the post you quoted, sorry.
 
A chance meeting today with a former DoD coworker brought to mind an aspect of Grusch's IG "reprisal" complaint I hadn't considered previously. If the ICIG did/does does find he was a victim of reprisals, that could be grounds for reinstatement to his previous position. He'd also probably be entitled to his salary (somewhere in the $150K-$175K range) since he resigned, as well as benefits he would have accrued in that time.

And do you have a clue about what was the content of that meeting?
 
You talked about a chance meeting which I supposed you'd have some more information about. As you might notice, I'm for one that's curious about its content.
Oh, I see. The former coworker I ran into was a very close friend of another of our former colleagues, an USAF officer who went through the process. I can't provide specifics , other than to say the USAF IG agreed with his reprisal complaint (after he retired) regarding being passed over for promotion. He was reinstateed with the rank of which he was passed over, and got retroactive pay/benefits.

I thought of him today only after talking to his good friend, he mentioned the officer in passing. The complaint/reinstatement story was pretty widely known, but he and I were at best acquaintances so I was never privy to a blow-by-blow account of the situation.
 
Tim Burchett (00:53:24):
Have anyone been murdered that you would think that you know of or have heard of, I guess?

David Charles Grusch (00:53:29):
I have to be careful asking that question. I directed people with that knowledge to the appropriate authorities.
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So, hearsay, again.

(And if the context wasn't "in efforts to cover up or conceal these extraterrestrial technology", it could even apply to people with theories about the JFK shooting.)

Remember that old phrase "If I told you I would have to kill you"? People who have worked in the classified environment for years never say that. It's not true, it's not funny and it makes light of the serious business of protecting government secrets.

If Grusch is saying people are being killed to protect some UAP program you can be sure he is just repeating tall tales he has been told.
Can you imagine a worse way to protect secrets than creating a trail of bodies? Bodies of people with relatives and friends who would know where they worked and in general the environment they worked in. Who would ask questions. Then who kills the people who killed the potential leakers? Those assassins would be a huge security risk, because they could leak what they had done. It would create a neverendingly expanding trail of bodies and secrets that would be far worse than leaking the original UAP stuff.

When people start talking about people being hurt and killed to protect secrets you can be pretty sure none of it is true. Take off you conspiracy eyeglasses and think how ridiculously difficult that would be to keep secret over any length of time.
 
Can you imagine a worse way to protect secrets than creating a trail of bodies?
Advocatus diaboli:
1) it works in the movies (esp. mafia movies) because it makes others afraid to talk
2) they make it look like an accident (and therefore any accident could be a murder attempt)
3) this secret is so big that conventional methods don't suffice (and common sense no longer applies)

You're calling it "tall tale", I've called it hearsay.
Grusch's lawyer told him what to say to avoid looking like an accessory after the fact.

"Three May Keep a Secret if Two are Dead"
Benjamin Franklin, "Poor Richard's Almanach" (1735)

 
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Remember that old phrase "If I told you I would have to kill you"? People who have worked in the classified environment for years never say that. It's not true, it's not funny and it makes light of the serious business of protecting government secrets.

Something on this statement is not clear. Because if your logic is right, then according to Grusch's answer to Burchett, that old phrase doesn't apply to the "appropriate authorities"? As far as I know how it unfortunately works, the IC is above the law when it comes to their secret services.
 
Something on this statement is not clear. Because if your logic is right, then according to Grusch's answer to Burchett, that old phrase doesn't apply to the "appropriate authorities"? As far as I know how it unfortunately works, the IC is above the law when it comes to their secret services.
Certainly you can cite examples of "the IC" murdering US citizens? USG employees even?
 
Something on this statement is not clear. Because if your logic is right, then according to Grusch's answer to Burchett, that old phrase doesn't apply to the "appropriate authorities"? As far as I know how it unfortunately works, the IC is above the law when it comes to their secret services.
The IC and all its functionaries are, in fact, beholden to the law of our land, same as every other citizen or organization, related to the government or not.
 
From what Mr Grusch has said, he hasn't been in a position to examine any evidence that would benefit from evaluation by someone with a physics degree. He hasn't seen any physical evidence at all.

Article:
Grusch also said he has not seen photos of the alleged craft himself,


I don't think this old second-hand paraphrased quote is sufficient evidence that Grusch hasn't seen anything he thinks of as physical evidence of crashed craft. What did he actually say?
 
The IC and all its functionaries are, in fact, beholden to the law of our land, same as every other citizen or organization, related to the government or not.

You're entitled to your opinion as much as me. Nobody can prove our constitutional rights are always respected, alas.
 
Article:
Grusch also said he has not seen photos of the alleged craft himself,


I don't think this old second-hand paraphrased quote is sufficient evidence that Grusch hasn't seen anything he thinks of as physical evidence of crashed craft. What did he actually say?

That's how I thought on that previous occasion, I was going to find out but definitely ain't got time for that.
 
You're entitled to your opinion as much as me. Nobody can prove our constitutional rights are always respected, alas.
These are two disconnected points. Your opinion does not outweigh fact.

You cannot indicate the IC is above the law, because it isn't. People not being punished because you personally disagree with something does not make people above the law.

We can go for days about how authorities and permissions work, and how that impacts where legalities rest, but we can forego that for now.

In a lot of the cases you're probably thinking of, the IC was in fact ordered or legally authorized to do so. The activities were then declared illegal retroactively, and in a lot of cases you cannot hold the individuals responsible because of ex post facto. Ex post facto is just as relevant to you as a private citizen but it'd be much harder find yourself in par context, and worlds of it would just not be applicable to you at all since you're not dictated by authorities and permissions.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/ex_post_facto
 
Your opinion does not outweigh fact.

Sorry but who is claiming otherwise here? If there's someone claiming anything that's you, but as expected for that matter with no supporting proof on your post. Therefore, I guess we must move on on that subject. Thank you anyway for your interesting explanations on ex-post facto.
 
The IC and all its functionaries are, in fact, beholden to the law of our land, same as every other citizen or organization, related to the government or not.

You're entitled to your opinion as much as me. Nobody can prove our constitutional rights are always respected, alas.
@Tezcatlipoca stated a fact, not an opinion. There is no exception in the constitution for spooks.

The fact is that some IC members will occasionally break the law; this happens in most branches of government and is called 'corruption'.

When @MapperGuy asked this, "Can you imagine a worse way to protect secrets than creating a trail of bodies?", my afterthought on posting my reply was that the government breaking the law routinely was part of the "conspiracy theorist starter pack". However, it is my opinion that government comes with so much bureaucratic red tape and paper trails that it is much harder to break the law in government (and not get caught) than it is in the private sector. Even Iran-Contra tried to utilize a legal gray area to not intentionally break the law, and the wikipedia article on "NSA warrantless surveillance" has a long section on legal controversy. Guantanomo Bay prison and the US rendition flights are another operation set up to skirt the law and not outright break it.

What sets these operations apart from conspiracy theories is that a) we know who specifically did it (not just "the IC"), and b) because we know, we can see that the semi-legal operation aligns with the public goals of the agency performing it.

For UFOlogy, we have none of that. We have no agency whose goals encompass analysing NHI artefacts and bodies; and even if we had, we don't have a situation where lawlessness would further these goals. There's simply no reason to do it in secret.
Of course, a conspiracy theorist argues backwards: because there is no evidence, it must be secret; and because it is secret, there must be motivation to keep it secret; but those claimed motivations (e.g. "population panic") don't stand up to analysis—unlike the motivations for the aforementioned real operations.

Take, for example, AAWSAP. This was small-scale corruption: a Senator and his friends using funds for a different purpose than it was allocated for, to pursue a personal agenda. They didn't use government facilities (apart from Elizondo's desk and phone?), and still the project was presumably flagged in some internal review (red tape!) and discontinued. The whole thing way silently dying until Elizondo got his hands on the Navy videos and leaked them, establishing the modern-day "what the government knows but is not telling you" narrative of UFOlogy, which, given how thoroughly debunked those 3 videos are, was still wholly built on imagination.
(Elizondo is good at selling imagination.)

We now have, through the political pressure generated by those conspiracy theorists, actual USG programs tasked with collecting UFO information (first UAPTF, now AARO); they don't operate in secret, they don't break the law, and they find nothing, which, by the aforementioned CT reasoning, is taken as evidence that the secret UFO program is still hidden out there. (I bet it's not.) And with all the UFO whistleblower protections in force now, it shouldn't be hidden! So, again by reverse CT reasoning, it must be hidden because potential whistleblowers fear for their life. If you believe in the hidden UFO program, facts have driven you into that corner, where you now must believe in whistleblower murder squads, or abandon your belief.

I can tell you which belief makes for the better Hollywood plot and everyone's lives more exciting, but unfortunately it's the impossible one. Suspension of disbelief is fine in the cinema, but expensive in reality. The wallpaper in the rabbit hole is nice, but the air outside is healthier.

Grusch's "revelations" didn't change any of that, but with his reputation and publicity, he served as the Pied Piper leading more people deeper into that rabbit hole—wittingly or unwittingly. There's no profit being in that hole, except for those who want you there.
 
The fact is that some IC members will occasionally break the law; this happens in most branches of government and is called 'corruption'.

Exactly my thoughts, but nobody can't prove some cases, right? For example, as I said to you on a recently started UFO thread on the Rambles section, there's been people suspecting there's indeed lobbying or bribing on the Congress re: some intelligence secret program, who's going to prove (or disprove) it? Much likely nobody, IMO.
 
"Can you imagine a worse way to protect secrets than creating a trail of bodies?"

After saudi arabia got straight up caught on tape we still give them a bunch of military equipment and strategic support.

Gary Webb, Michael Hastings.... Jeffry Epstein. Ken Saro-wiwa (killed by the company SHELL corperation) Karen silkwood, Daphne Caruana Galizia - “For me it was just business. Yeah. Business as usual.” He later added: “Of course I feel sorry.”

No. I can't think of a better way for world leaders to keep secrets.
 
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Exactly my thoughts, but nobody can't prove some cases, right? For example, as I said to you on a recently started UFO thread on the Rambles section, there's been people suspecting there's indeed lobbying or bribing on the Congress re: some intelligence secret program, who's going to prove (or disprove) it? Much likely nobody, IMO.
This is dragging the thread to be off topic.
 
Exactly my thoughts, but nobody can't prove some cases, right? For example, as I said to you on a recently started UFO thread on the Rambles section, there's been people suspecting there's indeed lobbying or bribing on the Congress re: some intelligence secret program, who's going to prove (or disprove) it? Much likely nobody, IMO.
Stuff like this does get "proven" and "disproven" all the time, the difference is the government & military don't put it on blast to the public because it makes them look really, really bad. Once the grains come out though everyone goes for it, it's exactly what happened to AAWSAP/AATIP. We know this all from direct sources related to AAWSAP/AATIP too, DoD itself has been relatively tight lipped about why it was closed outside some very basic responses that just dance around it.

These ICIG complaints kind of roll into that point, it's just the actor that varies in terms of surfacing it to the public. Sometimes it's journalists, sometimes it's Congress, sometimes its participants, sometimes it's the function themselves; sometimes it's a blend of any of these.
 
This part here, posted by Curious George, is, in my opinion, quite symptomatic for the whole thing. Burlison says [my emphasis added]

Mr. Burlison (01:36:54):
Okay. So with that being said, and the other statement that has been made that was intriguing to me and it’s intriguing because my view has been that we are billions of light years away from any other system. The concept that an alien species that’s technologically advanced enough to travel billions of light years gets here and somehow is incompetent enough to not survive earth or crashes, is something that I find a little bit farfetched. With that being said, you have mentioned that there’s interdimensional potential. Could you expound on that?

David Charles Grusch (01:37:36):
Oh yeah, to answer your first question and I’m here as a fact witness and expert. But I will give you a theoretical framework at least to work off to kind of espouse crashes. Regardless of your level of sentience, right? Planes crash, cars crash, and number of sorties however high a small percentage you’re going to end in mission failure if you will as we say in the Air Force and then in terms of multi-dimensionality, that kind of thing. The framework that I’m familiar with for example, is something called the holographic principle. It derives itself from general relativity and quantum mechanics and that is, if you want to imagine 3D objects such as yourself casting a shadow onto a 2D surface. That’s the holographic principle. So you can be quasi projected from higher dimensional space to lower dimensional. It’s a scientific trope that you can actually cross literally as far as I understand. But there’s probably guys with PhDs that we could probably argue about that.

Mr. Burlison (01:38:36):
But you have not seen any documentation that that’s what’s occurring? This is theory?

David Charles Grusch (01:38:43):
Only a theoretical framework discussion, yes.
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It might be a small, insignificant detail, but to me it's quite telling that there is a hearing where a politician who is supposed to be interested in controlling the veracity of these claims apparently hasn't even bothered to check how far away the nearest star system is, and he's off by an order of magnitude that is enormous. The closest star is Proxima Centauri, 4.25 light years away. If I were the person testifying, the first thing I would do after hearing that would be to correct the person saying it, not start talking about an unproven concept in string theory as if it was established fact and also using that concept in a highly speculative way. To me, that's not being serious. And the case studies that AARO has put out hasn't looked that impressive either. In my opinion, the people here have been able to do much more thorough investigations without any funding from the US government.



When it comes to the more off-topic IC legality discussion, my personal opinion (very coloured by the fact that I, ideologically, am what most three letter agencies would probably classify as a far-left extremist) is that I think that in probably every country on the planet, parts of their intelligence services routinely break laws, be it their own or those of some other country, or for that matter, international laws and conventions.

With that said, as far as I know, the only Western-style democracy that has explicitly allowed an intelligence service to do illegal things in their own country against their own citizens is Sweden, with the so-called "FRA law" of 2009 (in actuality, it was several changes in different laws, but it was colloquially known as "The FRA law"), not to the FRA (the military signal intelligence service) that was the main focus of the bill, but to the small clandestine unit of military intelligence called KSI ("The Office for Special Acquisition"). The rest of the democratic world has, at least in theory, been smart enough to not give their spooks a "get out of jail free"-card when it comes to their own citizens.
 
Article:
Grusch also said he has not seen photos of the alleged craft himself,


I don't think this old second-hand paraphrased quote is sufficient evidence that Grusch hasn't seen anything he thinks of as physical evidence of crashed craft. What did he actually say?

I was thinking of the YouTube NewsNation interview with David Grusch which has been posted and much-discussed here.
"Military whistleblower claims US has UFO retrieval program", Elizabeth Vargas, NewsNation June 2023
"He also tells us he's not seen photos of the alleged craft himself...", from approx. 4 minutes 51 seconds in.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSj7QsHRxHQ&t=281s


It is second-hand via a NewsNation narrator, and about 7 months old, but unless Grusch has corrected or contradicted it since, maybe it's reasonable to think that David Grusch did tell NewsNation that he hadn't seen any photographs of alleged craft.

Same video, at approx. 03:57;
"...I thought at first I was being deceived, it was a ruse, people started confiding in me, they approached me, I have plenty of current former senior intelligence officers that came to me, many which I knew almost my whole career, that confided in me they were part of a program, they named the program, I've never heard of it, and, they, they told me, based on their oral testimony, um, and they provided me with documents and other, other proof, that there was in fact a program at the UAP task force was uh, not read into."
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The "...other proof" phrase is open to interpretation of course.
But if someone had taken clear photos of the Loch Ness Monster and retrieved a tooth, then wrote up detailed zoological papers, told me about it and shared the evidence with me, I probably wouldn't describe my resurrected belief in Nessie as being down to
"...oral testimony, um, and they provided me with documents and other, other proof".

Ross Coulthart, in conversation with Bryce Zabel, transcript from Mick West's (with thanks!) "Whistleblower David Grusch - Need to Know (06-05-23)"
Okay, Dave is not a direct witness. He has not touched a flying saucer, or been inside the program.
But he's done the next best thing. What he's done is he's found the documents, the photographs, and the people who do
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https://otter.ai/u/EmykFxg4NTjjOQubWZmzUqllv3E
(If the NewsNation item is to be believed- e.g. if it hasn't been corrected by Grusch- then he hasn't in fact seen relevant photographs). Again, no reference to Grusch personally encountering physical evidence.
 
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What he's done is he's found the documents, the photographs, and the people who do
Finding a photograph by itself is not that helpful. Think of Nick Pope and the Calvine UFO photograph.
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/claim-original-calvine-ufo-photo.12571/

Elizondo has been promising a clear photograph for ages, too, but all that surfaced was bunk.
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/el...e-a-50-feet-away-photo-23-minute-video.11887/
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/balloon-like-ufo-photo-from-the-debrief.11481/

photos of RCS testing shapes
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/on...t-not-quite-nothing-burgers.13060/post-301175
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/ro...ineering-program-at-area-51.13109/post-301192
 
To me it's quite telling that there is a hearing where a politician who is supposed to be interested in controlling the veracity of these claims apparently hasn't even bothered to check how far away the nearest star system is, and he's off by an order of magnitude that is enormous. The closest star is Proxima Centauri, 4.25 light years away.
To be charitable, the 'system' 'billions of light years away' they are referring to may be 'the closest system with an advanced alien civilisation'. I know of a few astrobiologists who would agree with that estimate, or rather they would not dismiss it as unlikely. Advanced, spacefaring civilisations may be very rare indeed, and the closest one may be billions of light years away - we just don't know.

But If I was in this situation, I would have certainly pointed out the incongruity of the question. One might not expect a politician to understand the scale of the universe, but a whistleblower with a physics degree and enthusiasm for alien visitation should know better. In particular, an advanced alien civilisation billions of light years away would have an insurmountable task merely finding the Earth, among the quadrillions of stars that would present closer targets.
 
But If I was in this situation, I would have certainly pointed out the incongruity of the question. One might not expect a politician to understand the scale of the universe, but a whistleblower with a physics degree and enthusiasm for alien visitation should know better.
Yeah, but Burlison is on Grusch's side. There's no profit in showing him up in a public hearing.
 
Yeah, but Burlison is on Grusch's side. There's no profit in showing him up in a public hearing.
Burlison was very much not on Grusch’s side at the hearing, in-fact he was the only one who said he was “a skeptic”. It’s only been since they’ve got all this pushback and Mike Turner et all decided to gut the legislation that he’s taken a lot more interest in the matter.

We need to stick to facts and not try and spin things. There doesn’t need to be “sides” - just people trying to get to the truth of whatever is going on here
 
Just personally, I think this tidbit is a potential big deal:

1705352123256.png

Now combine that with Burchett's claims after the first SCIF on UAPs from our thread on the hearings:

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/house-oversight-hearing-on-uaps-july-26-2023.13049/page-31

On a UFO podcast he basically says there were UFOs but no one in government can find them because they've all been sent to the defense contractors and are beyond government oversight:

1705352773569.png
1705352865928.png1705352837749.png
That UFO Podcast on Youtube

So, I think if anyone is holding their breath that these hearings and SCIF sessions are going to produce tangible evidence of UFOs in the governments possessing, they might want to come up for air. These guys are shifting the goal posts away from the government and to the private sector. I think this is because they can't find any UFOs.

Let's think about this. According to Grusch, crashed UFO's have been recovered since at least 1933 in Fascist Italy (and he sometimes says that's the earliest one he can talk about, insinuating that UFOs have been recovered even earlier in the first 1/2 of the 20th century or maybe the 19th?). The Fascist UFO files, where this story comes from, says the Italians shared the UFO technology with the other Axis powers, Germany and Japan.

So, not only did the US government manage to keep crashed UFO's under wraps for 70+ years of different administrations, even when governments and countries ceased to exist, the secret was kept. Fascist Italy fractured into civil war during WW2 and emerged as a parliamentary republic, Imperial Japan became a democracy and Fascist Germany became 2 different countries. If the Soviets had any UFOs, it became 15 different countries that all managed to keep the secret.

Now, it's the US defense industry that is keeping these UFOs secret, and it's far more fractured than various world governments. As I asked in the thread on the hearings, "Which defense contractors got these UFOs and what did they do with them?".

I know the claim is that there is a sweetheart deal where the contractors get to keep the UFOs and reverse engineer them so as to sell the results of said reverse engineering back to the government for a tidy profit. In return elements in government are paid off and the contractors keep the UFOs out of government oversight. And this has been kept secret for 70+ years?

As I noted in the other thread, here are the aerospace contractors I can think of just off the top of my head: Grumman, Lockheed, General Electric, General Dynamics, EG&G, McDonald Douglass, Hughs, Northrop, Pratt & Whittney, Thiacol, Martin Marietta, Rockwell/Rocketdyne, Boeing and others. During WW2 this would have also included companies like GM, Ford, Kaiser and loads of others. Many of these have since merged or been repeatedly bought, sold, split up and re-sold and re-combined over the years. Yet they all keep the secret.

I wonder if when Lockheed and Martin Marretta merged in '94 if the lawyers drew up documents on how to share their UFOs?
 
So, I think if anyone is holding their breath that these hearings and SCIF sessions are going to produce tangible evidence of UFOs in the governments possessing, they might want to come up for air. These guys are shifting the goal posts away from the government and to the private sector. I think this is because they can't find any UFOs.

Let's think about this. According to Grusch, crashed UFO's have been recovered since at least 1933 in Fascist Italy (and he sometimes says that's the earliest one he can talk about, insinuating that UFOs have been recovered even earlier in the first 1/2 of the 20th century or maybe the 19th?). The Fascist UFO files, where this story comes from, says the Italians shared the UFO technology with the other Axis powers, Germany and Japan.

So, not only did the US government manage to keep crashed UFO's under wraps for 70+ years of different administrations, even when governments and countries ceased to exist, the secret was kept. Fascist Italy fractured into civil war during WW2 and emerged as a parliamentary republic, Imperial Japan became a democracy and Fascist Germany became 2 different countries. If the Soviets had any UFOs, it became 15 different countries that all managed to keep the secret.

Now, it's the US defense industry that is keeping these UFOs secret, and it's far more fractured than various world governments. As I asked in the thread on the hearings, "Which defense contractors got these UFOs and what did they do with them?".

I know the claim is that there is a sweetheart deal where the contractors get to keep the UFOs and reverse engineer them so as to sell the results of said reverse engineering back to the government for a tidy profit. In return elements in government are paid off and the contractors keep the UFOs out of government oversight. And this has been kept secret for 70+ years?

As I noted in the other thread, here are the aerospace contractors I can think of just off the top of my head: Grumman, Lockheed, General Electric, General Dynamics, EG&G, McDonald Douglass, Hughs, Northrop, Pratt & Whittney, Thiacol, Martin Marietta, Rockwell/Rocketdyne, Boeing and others. During WW2 this would have also included companies like GM, Ford, Kaiser and loads of others. Many of these have since merged or been repeatedly bought, sold, split up and re-sold and re-combined over the years. Yet they all keep the secret.

I wonder if when Lockheed and Martin Marretta merged in '94 if the lawyers drew up documents on how to share their UFOs?
Yep, it seems to be an open secret in the UFO community that Lockheed Martin is one of the holders of craft. Probably worth remembering that Grusch has said that he could walk you up to the door of where this technology is... As well as this, there's Coulthart's claim that one UFO is so big that it was immovable and required a building to be constructed over it - so there is a path to examining these claims.
 
Burlison was very much not on Grusch’s side at the hearing, in-fact he was the only one who said he was “a skeptic”. It’s only been since they’ve got all this pushback and Mike Turner et all decided to gut the legislation that he’s taken a lot more interest in the matter.
Burlison was at the hearing, and helped Grusch amplify some core talking points before the "light years" quip, including the "physical harm" claim we discussed earlier:
Article:
David Charles Grusch (01:35:30): I know of multiple colleagues of mine that got physically injured and the activity I-

Mr. Burlison (01:35:39): By UAPs or by people within the federal government?

David Charles Grusch (01:35:44): Both.

We need to stick to facts and not try and spin things. There doesn’t need to be “sides” - just people trying to get to the truth of whatever is going on here
I think that people do differ in what they expect the truth to be, and how they spin things.

Grusch's side would expect most if not all of his claims to be true as stated/implied.
The other side would only accept claims where Grusch has direct knowledge, and expect these to be proven. Obviously there's a spectrum between these positions.
 
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