The Varginha UFO

[John J.]

One of the things mentioned in the above video is that back then Globo showed this 1994 film. However, that was only on "Intercine", precisely on June 4, 1996, at 11 pm. "ROSWELL" has a scene which I'll explain what it's all about:

- In a key flashback sequence tied to the crash site investigation and the mystery of the recovered material, there is a demonstration of the so-called "memory metal" or "memory foil" - a piece of debris from the alleged alien craft. A character (often depicted as Marcel himself or someone showing it to a younger person, such as his son in some recollections, though the film adapts real witness accounts) takes a flat, rectangular piece of metallic-looking material (described as resembling aluminum foil but clearly not ordinary). The person crumples or folds the piece tightly, squeezing/compressing it in their hand.

A film drama about Roswell "...that adapts real witness accounts" (i.e., makes things up for dramatic effect) isn't evidence of anything, except that the story can be exploited commercially.

The Corona/ Roswell material was from a project Mogul balloon.
Its description as "a flying disc" originates from a press release by 1st Lt. William Haut, public information officer of the 809 Bomb Group.
So much for the military always covering up anything to do with UFOs (though the Corona/ Roswell balloon doesn't seem to have generated any UFO -flying object- reports).
The "memory foil" was probably a metallized plastic, a forerunner of boPET/ Mylar.

Brazel told the Record that the debris consisted of rubber strips, "tinfoil, paper, tape, and sticks."
...When interviewed in Fort Worth, Texas, Jesse Marcel described the wreckage as "parts of the weather device" composed of "tinfoil and broken wooden beams".

Pictures/ quote from Wikipedia, "Roswell incident" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roswell_incident

Edited to add: There was a cover-up, of course; though described by the USAAF as a weather balloon it was soon realised that it was a Mogul balloon, the public were not told this for many years. But it was still a balloon.

 

[BoulderRiver]

@Perene
Here's the google sheet with all the inconsistencies in Carlos de Souza story over the years.


Source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Vfe6T2hgEt0sT8sqYMDlvGHYx3sTdz5SEpBPMFSJp7E/edit?gid=388387704#gid=388387704


It's also important to not that nobody in a 3km radius around the Maiolini farm noticed anything out of the ordinary, ever.
I was there in 2002. The region was already filled with houses, bars, a church, etc. It is literally impossible that nobody The crash, the Debris, the military operation.

 

[NorCal Dave]

SThe hypothesis that a secret revolutionary form of aircraft was developed, capable of accommodating four human-scale passengers, and it was decided to test fly it, over a heavily-populated area, with the malformed results of an equally secret primate experiment as passengers, makes no sense.
Developing a revolutionary aircraft only to use it to do some primate research, or to scare some random people in Brazil, isn't credible.
As with some of the sillier "explanations" of e.g. Roswell (bio-engineered Soviet "crew") there is no evidence, and both the hypothetical creatures and the hypothetical craft are wildly implausible.

You beat me to it. That was some wild-ass speculation going on with genetically modified apes flying around in cigar shaped UFOs, crashing in a farmers field, then one of them wondering over to town where it's mistaken for the Devil, then getting captured, then being taken to a regular public hospital and finally flown out of Brazil on a USAF flight. Kinda makes the MiBs look quaint.

As you mentioned, it's as fringe as Annie Jacobson's Nazi/Soviet genetically engineered munchkins. Like the claim she repeats, there is zero evidence for any of this. Of course, in this case that seems to mean it's factual and has been covered-up.

 

[Perene]

Can you relate how he knows "everything had to be a LIE" as opposed to "everything got increasingly far from reality as people's memories became 'tainted,' while they thought they were still honestly reporting what they think they remember?"

I am not sure if there may be a language issue at play here -- somebody can make a statement that is totally, 100% but not be lying if they believe what they are saying. "Lying" describes telling a story that you KNOW is not true. With that in mind, is your contention that people were knowingly telling untrue stories? If so, how do you know this was intentional on their part, how do you know they are not just honestly wrong?

I didn't explain that bit correctly, the "everything had to be a lie" was not what I meant (that everyone gathered and combined to tell fake stories). I was trying to say is that Ubirajara Rodrigues was at first convinced there was something worth pursuing in the Varginha case, then he became frustrated with the inconsistencies and no longer believes it amounted to something "extraordinary".

I found an article written in portuguese which mentions Carlos de Souza and the "metallic material with "shape memory", too. It's worth translating and posting for this thread, it really helps to further explain what I told before about the likelihood that someone (like Carlos) is lying (and if said person is doing for one bit of their story, it gets harder to believe the rest).

It's from the magazine "Questão de Ciência". I'm posting the full translation: (CLICK HERE). The original source (with hyperlinks) can be found here, too.

 

[John J.]

I found an article written in portuguese which mentions Carlos de Souza and the "metallic material with "shape memory", too.

Ah, I think I misunderstood a point you made in an earlier post (# 198).
Is it right to say you don't think Carlos de Souza is telling the truth? The "Fantasies and Contradictions of the Varginha Case" article you linked to implies this (and I might agree).

"Metallic material with 'shape memory'" was already an established part of UFO lore, associated with Roswell as you pointed out.
Repeating a trope apparently borrowed from an earlier UFO story, which has been thoroughly debunked, doesn't add credibility.
It just makes it look like the claimant was familiar with earlier UFO claims to a much greater extent than the average person.

If de Souza followed the UFO down in his microlite, and found a military presence already there (30-40 men, two trucks, an ambulance and a helicopter) then the crashing of a UFO must have been anticipated. This seems highly unlikely, unless the Brazilian military routinely monitor and translate the communications of alien craft, or can bring down UFOs at will, to the degree that they can determine where it will land.

A group of 30-40 men, two trucks, an ambulance and a helicopter seems to be a rather lacklustre response to an expected UFO crash.
It wouldn't be a particularly impressive response to a light aircraft crash; supposing there were more than one or two casualties, or there was a fire? Why no fire tenders? What if ET has more firepower than 30-40 men with smallarms in two trucks, and doesn't want to go to a provincial hospital?

If de Souza's later claim of the military arriving 10-15 minutes later is correct, it's still a very rapid response. Maybe there was a military base nearby (within a very few miles/ km), someone sighted what was believed to be an aircraft in trouble and (e.g.) an infantry platoon and a military ambulance were sent to assist.
But on realising (or at least suspecting) the nature of the incident, it would seem sensible to establish a perimeter and await more specialised assets. Collecting debris could interfere with a forensic crash investigation, and what about possible toxic or radiological hazards? The soldiers would probably have radio contact with their superiors (certainly if a helicopter was present as part of the team).
If the troops supposedly present were a cobbled-together contingency response to a suspected aircraft crash (and they'd be much better than nothing), you'd think that they, and their immediate bosses, would understand that a crashed extraterrestrial spaceship was beyond their paygrades or competencies.

 

[JMartJr]

I didn't explain that bit correctly, ...

Ahh, thank you, I believe that I understand your point better now.

 

[Gaspa]

...the moronic explanations that were given by the military (as far as I know, the "Mudinho" was one of the reasons given by them).

Judging our reality by our current metrics/understanding (including the laws of physics) doesn't mean we automatically close our minds to the possibility of something beyond our limited imagination. By rejecting 100% the possibility of being wrong (because the situation does not fit what WE know) or something shady has happened, we are not being smart.

Funny how the most likely explanation: that the girls saw a person that matches a lot of their description and lives nearby, but got scared for some reason; is "moronic", while it is "not smart" to reject the possibility of it being something beyond our current understanding of the laws of physics. Just hilarious.

How you expect anyone to take you seriously while writing these two things just one paragraph apart from each other is beyond me.

It was beginning to pour rain, they were taking a shortcut on an unkempt lot, so probably running, and saw someone crouched in the middle of the bushes by the wall and got scared. By their own recollection from on the first time they were interviewed for Fantástico, they said they didn't stop to look at the "thing" for long, they turned away in an instant and skedaddled. By the time they reached home, that sighting had become "the devil". And the devil has horns and all sorts of strange features, so that was attached to the memory. It just makes sense.

Then Ubirajara finds them and helpfully explains to them that they had encountered what experts such as himself label "aliens", and memories get further shaped from his descriptions of greys and whatnot. Horns become bumps in their memories, and so on. It's human psychology 101.

 

[BoulderRiver]

Just to clarify some details that could add up when believers reistate this case, @Gaspa:

1. The rain would come hours later; the sun was blazing that afternoon.
Visibility was clear, and the sun was at their back. Weather reports state the rain would fall after 17:30, and the humidity was high.

2. Their description wasn't of a traditional Christian devil (hooves, beard, goat face, and horns).
It was a man with large red eyes and 3 "humps / bumps" in the head.
The "horns" were their initial description, but they meant bumps. There are several other interviews where they display with their hands the size/length of said feature. They've stated in months/years afterwards that they lacked the proper articulation to describe their vision properly, which is understandable given their age and background.

3. What did change with time were the illustrations based on their visage.
The very first drawing displays something similar to a man. Later representations are clearly drawn with the popular "grey alien" as a reference:
Bulbous head, enormous eyes, skinny body

 

[Perene]

It wasn't raining and they knew said person. Anyone insisting it was Mudinho or a regular man instead of a creature is accepting a known lie told by the military. Of all the possibilities to explain this case, this is not even the last one I would choose, it's the only I would immediately reject. If the alien hypothesis seems unlikely (considering a thousand other complications it might entail), then pick any other theory, perhaps there's a link with those (chupa-cabras, goat-suckers, WIKI ARTICLE)?


Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwJakDoNefY

I don't know why any of you would consider embracing such ridiculous and already debunked version of said story, and disregard a "biological experiment" (which failed, of course) someone wants to keep it hidden.

A "Resident Evil" plot is not on par with aliens in the realm of possibilities. What is more odd than all these I am mentioning is the fact the brazilians (and americans) would act so quickly and be so good at hiding the evidence (about that, I'll always suspect of prior knowledge, before all these events started). And the fact multiple witnesses reported, makes me SUSPICIOUS this wasn't mass-delusion. Someone has to be telling the truth. They can't be ALL lying.

You must admit to think it's all bogus may hint many people are very good liars (not just the grifters), or sadly bumbling idiots mistaking something "normal/ordinary" for what it isn't. Yeah, there are lots of those "idiots" (with very bad senses, including what they can smell, apparently) in such events... it's not possible, unless they all combined to do it.

Except for a few like that Carlos de Souza guy, which are clearly lying 100% or adding stuff it didn't happen, borrowed from the UFO lore.

 

[JMartJr]

You must admit to think it's all bogus may hint many people are very good liars (not just the grifters), or sadly bumbling idiots mistaking something "normal/ordinary" for what it isn't. Yeah, there are lots of those "idiots" (with very bad senses, including what they can smell, apparently) in such events... it's not possible, unless they all combined to do it.

I'm sorry, if it is not too much trouble, could you say that again another way? I can't follow it at all, I suspect it is a "translation" issue, so perhaps restating it a different way will help.

 

[Gaspa]

Just to clarify some details that could add up when believers reistate this case, @Gaspa:

1. The rain would come hours later; the sun was blazing that afternoon.
Visibility was clear, and the sun was at their back. Weather reports state the rain would fall after 17:30, and the humidity was high.

2. Their description wasn't of a traditional Christian devil (hooves, beard, goat face, and horns).
It was a man with large red eyes and 3 "humps / bumps" in the head.
The "horns" were their initial description, but they meant bumps. There are several other interviews where they display with their hands the size/length of said feature. They've stated in months/years afterwards that they lacked the proper articulation to describe their vision properly, which is understandable given their age and background.

3. What did change with time were the illustrations based on their visage.
The very first drawing displays something similar to a man. Later representations are clearly drawn with the popular "grey alien" as a reference:
Bulbous head, enormous eyes, skinny body

1. First off, citation needed. The sun might have been blazing earlier in the afternoon, but I've read in several places that they were taking the shortcut through the lot because it was already raining hard. One description found in the IPM says it was raining with lightning storms it was very windy at the time of the sighting. Even if it had not started raining yet, it could be the strong winds the precede a rain, but no sun blazing. Either way, not great for visibility. I have also read that it hailed shortly after the sighting. In one 1996 report for Revista Planeta, ufologist Claudeir Covo stated that around 17h Varginha experienced the biggest hail storm in 25 years (p26 here). So I'm not taking at face value that the sun was blazing at the time of the sighting, which is supposed to be around 15h30. It takes some time for a storm of this size to build.

And even if I'm wrong about all this, it matters more that they didn't approach the "creature" or stop to look at it, they got scared and ran away. That's something they said on the first time Fantástico aired a story about it.

2. The details in the description came later. Those were built around the memory of an experience of a glimpse, they are not accurate descriptions of what they saw. The simple fact is they arrived home telling mother that they had seen the devil. The mom even claimed to have sensed the smell of sulfur when they got back to the lot, something typically associated with the christian devil. I think it's very likely they smelled something, but the sulfur claim I think is just suggestion.

3. The only thing that remains constant in the drawings is the posture, which looks exactly like mudinho's.

 

[Ann K]

It wasn't raining and they knew said person. Anyone insisting it was Mudinho or a regular man instead of a creature is accepting a known lie told by the military. Of all the possibilities to explain this case, this is not even the last one I would choose, it's the only I would immediately reject. If the alien hypothesis seems unlikely (considering a thousand other complications it might entail), then pick any other theory, perhaps there's a link with those (chupa-cabras, goat-suckers, WIKI ARTICLE)?

A mundane explanation is ALWAYS going to be more probable than one that entails entities that have never been shown to exist. Perhaps it was Mudinho, perhaps not, but positing apocryphal alternatives is never going to be an answer when all they really do is raise more questions instead.

 

[Gaspa]

I'm sorry, if it is not too much trouble, could you say that again another way? I can't follow it at all, I suspect it is a "translation" issue, so perhaps restating it a different way will help.

I can tell that by "combined" he means something more like "agreed".
One of the meanings for "Combinar" in Portuguese is "to arrange" or "to agree".

 

[Gaspa]

I don't know why any of you would consider embracing such ridiculous and already debunked version of said story, and disregard a "biological experiment" (which failed, of course) someone wants to keep it hidden.

How was it debunked? By the girls saying "nuh-huh"?