Mark Taylor conspiricy?

Ron Aigner

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Banned
https://www.evidenceexplained.com/content/quicklesson-8-what-constitutes-proof

"Proof is not a document. It’s a body of evidence. As biographers or historians of whatever ilk, we do not ‘prove’ a point by discovering a record that asserts something. That assertion could be wrong. If so, any further work we do on the basis of that misinformation will likely be wrong or irrelevant.
Achieving proof is a process in which we assemble evidence, test it, refine it, and reinforce it until that body of evidence is solid enough to withstand contradictions and counterclaims. As with any construction project, results are only as good as the materials and the labor we invest."

Yes, isn't it a shame that the Government spent tens of millions of dollars to cover up what is easily exposed. The pure FACT that they DID NOT do a post Columbine investigation of the January Incident is incredible in itself. They sealed the files and basement tapes and depositions before an attempt by Clinton appointed magistrate Patricia Cohen to destroy them. They claim that they are sealed to protect from copycats? They have created more copycats by blaming the classmates at Columbine High School. This tragedy had everything to do with pedophiia and little to do with Columbine culture. Google Release Mark Taylor.
 

Ron Aigner

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Banned
Actually my intent was to make the distinction that "we do not prove a point by discovering a record that asserts something. That assertion could be wrong. If so, any further work we do on the basis of that misinformation will likely be wrong or irrelevant."

This was because I had noticed that Ron has referred to instances of claims being made, as being evidence. People make all sorts of assertions that are untrue, so just pointing to someones assertion as being evidence of something doesn't cut it. All too often I have seen instances where people make false claims and even point to an (edited) video as evidence of wrong doing.... but upon further investigation both the claim and the supposed evidence were shown to be patently false. If we just look at the false claims and video that James O'Keefe made up that resulted in the bankruptcy of the group ACORN, we can see the irreparable damage that can result from taking accusations at face value without doing research into the strength of the evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACORN_2009_undercover_videos_controversy

"
In 2009, a series of videos were released in which workers at several offices of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) appeared to advise a young couple on how to hide prostitution activities and avoid taxes, resulting in news media and political uproar. The videos, which were recorded secretly by conservative activists Hannah Giles and James O'Keefe (the "young couple"), were released on Fox News and the websiteBigGovernment.com from September into November 2009. They quickly generated widespread, negative publicity for ACORN, a non-profit organization involved in voter registration, community organizing and advocacy for low- and moderate-income people for nearly 40 years. O'Keefe explained in September 2009 that he "targeted ACORN for the same reasons that the political right does: its massive voter registration drives".[1] The U.S. Census Bureau and the IRS ended contracts with the organization, and the U.S. Congress voted to suspend its funding to ACORN. Soon ACORN also lost most of its private funding, despite several independent investigations that by December 2009 began to reveal no criminal activity by ACORN staff had taken place. ACORN filed for Chapter 7liquidation on November 2, 2010, effectively closing the organization.[2]Independent investigations were made by state attorneys general of Massachusetts and California, and the U.S. Attorney of Brooklyn, New York; their reports were released beginning in December 2009 and extending through April 2010. The attorney general's office in Massachusetts and the U.S. Attorney for Brooklyn concluded that the ACORN workers had committed no criminal activity and that the videos were "heavily edited" to present material out of context and create a misleading impression of activities"

You really had to reach out of the box for this one. What may I ask does this have to do with our investigation of Columbine? Why don't you stay on topic? This makes as much sense as me posting a story of how the Mathew Shepard case was a hoax and the murderers were bisexal druggies looking to score and not homophobes.
http://hotair.com/archives/2010/10/...ccuses-rural-coloradans-of-backward-thinking/
 

Ron Aigner

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Banned
It the witch hunt that went away, the combined "Satanism, child trafficking and pedophilia" was never there to the degree that was suggested. It was overblow hysteria and panic.
Read the Franklin Cover up. It's online. Then read the Franklin Scandal. Add to your knowledge, the fact that John Decamp never lost a case relating to this and Larry King spent years in prison for his role and was sued successfully for a Million dollars. I will not debate the merits of any other case here. To what degree do you suggest that Satanism, Child trafficking and pedophilia is tolerable? Your link was a joke. This is our reality.
http://www.franklinscandal.com/
http://www.newsfollowup.com/docs/msc/The_Franklin_Cover_Up.pdf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmSgsWZkvMY&playnext=1&list=PLF1E70575307087E8&feature=results_main
 

Ron Aigner

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Banned
Ron, if it was a government conspiracy, then it is YOU calling it a conspiracy, not us. Of course that was their plan, but they changed it to killing themselves first? Really?

I asked you if Decamp was a witness and no reply. Just like you didn't answer most of Jay's questions either.

It seems that your evidence that they were sexually abused is just a cop that traded meth for sex with adults. Most adults do not want to have sex with someone underage. Also the families of those boys were well enough off to afford to go after a cop that abused them.

You need to do more investigation. Sheriff Sullivan was another sheriff that we brought our investigation to who was later exposed for pedophilia drugs etc. John Decamp had access to the sealed documents and tapes. His office was raided. They missed over 16,000 pages which we have including depositions of Eric Harris's parents. Who says that the parents of those boys weren't compromised, threatened or had no knowledge of the sexual abuse? Do you not want a full investigation of the arrest that provoked the shooters? Do you know that they could have prevented the tragedy by serving a search warrant but decided not to because it would have allowed Harris to expose the pedophilia in a courtroom?

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2002/jan/05/investigating-the-lies/
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/mar/21/public-deserves-truth-about-columbine-killers/
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-02-26-columbine_x.htm
 

Ron Aigner

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Banned
Sorry, I didn't believe the Satanism nonsense in the 80s, I don't believe it now. Can you show 3 cases of Satanic Ritual Abuse that held up in court?

There are a few Satanists out there and a lot Satanist 'want a bes'. But Michelle Remembers was fiction and so were the McMartin preschool case was a travesty. Many innocent folks had their lives ripped apart by ungrounded and unfounded , and to me, quite ridiculous accusations. Now we know about 'implanted memories' and how children can add to them.
Believe what you want to believe. I guess you're just as sure that there aren't any child traffickers or pedophiles? Traffickers, pedophiles and satanists all prefer that you don't believe in them. It takes you out of the fight or in this case, the wrong side of the fight.
 

Ron Aigner

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Banned
Where is the evidence that he didn't receive due process? Lawyers and media love that shit, they would be all over it.

Given the Taylor's past actions regarding psychiatric doctors and drugs, it's most likely that Mark's appearance in the later videos is a result of his psychological decline and lack of treatment, rather than as a result of treatment while committed.

And what past actions do you refer to? Mark was perfectly normal before he was illegally abducted and drugged.
 

Ron Aigner

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Banned
Were did he get the Lexus RX-300 (>$30,000 USD)his mother speaks of him owning?
She says in the video that he was "going downhill" 2 years ago and he was still driving 2 years ago. She is telling us that he had mental problems before he was hospitalized....one year later, after he had, according to his mother, been "going into some kind of craziness" he was committed to the mental ward.

Mark Taylor states in the video (~5:00)that he didn't write the book..............right after that, the video has ben edited, smething was cut out, and the interview starts again with another question about the book, but then the interview was edited again,and another question is asked. Why?

Watch that video very carefully, and, despite the editing, it becomes clear by his own mother's statements that Mark Taylor had mental probems before he was committed.

Mark got a small settlement from a lawsuit so he bought the Lexus. Mark had a ghostwriter write his book (he was being honest) . Your timeline of events is skewed. He showed no signs of mental illness prior to the drugging. To this day he is not a threat to himself or others. He has had no disciplinary problems and is allowed to leave the halfway house unaccompanied. You people think that you are investigating yet you go off on your hairbrained belief that everything Mark and his Mother say is a conspiracy. I hope you are more considerate of other victims. Haven't they already been through enough? How dare you.
 

Ron Aigner

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Banned
I have not read the book but it is called "I asked, God answered"

http://www.amazon.com/Asked-God-Answered-Columbine-Miracle/dp/1598863495

The allegation, which is never addressed by an investigation by the authorities, is that in the January prior to the shootings Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris were arrested for breaking into a van and raped whilst in police custody.

Sullivan was the guy in charge and given his subsequent conviction it appears quite likely that the allegation is true or at least should be thoroughly investigated.

Following ongoing forced medication using highly questionable drugs which warn of increased aggression and suicidal tendencies, it is put forward that Klebold and Harris planned the shooting as a means of drawing in the cops so they could shoot them. Apparently they did not think of walking into the police station or attacking the police out on the streets but then perhaps there were other factors as well, such as below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Harris_and_Dylan_Klebold

Josh Chavez who was in the same gym class reported that Klebold was called "Stretch" by some of the athletic students because he was uncoordinated and bad at sports, and that Eric was pushed into lockers and ridiculed because they thought he had a "big head with skinny body".

In Harris's 1998 yearbook, Klebold wrote "my wrath for January's incident will be GOD-LIKE. Not to mention our revenge in the commons."
Brooks Brown believes that the "January incident" was one of two events at Columbine that month rather than the van break-in. The first was an unfounded accusation that Harris and Klebold had brought marijuana to school, prompting a search of their property that enraged them. The second was even more humiliating, exactly the kind of thing that would focus their hatred on the "commons," the school cafeteria.

"People surrounded them in the commons and squirted ketchup packets all over them, laughing at them, calling them faggots," Brown says. "That happened while teachers watched. They couldn't fight back. They wore the ketchup all day and went home covered with it."[29]
Content from External Source
Back to Mark Taylor... he successfully sued Solvay but was only awarded an amazingly small compensation of $10,000 which he donated to cancer research, saying that Solvay representatives had threatened him following the suit and warned him not to spend the money

The suit claims that Eric Harris had been taking Luvox at the time of the shooting and that the drug triggered his violent outburst. Taylor's lawyer, Nebraska attorney, John DeCamp, is quoted saying: "two days after I took the case, Solvay pulled Luvox from the market. I don't know if my coming on the case had any bearing on them pulling the drug, but it is interesting." Solvay removed Luvox temporarily from the U.S. market to revise data about how Luvox is manufactured. http://www.solvaypharmaceuticals-us.com/Products/Mental_Heal th/LUVOX/default.asp

A consultant in Taylor's lawsuit, Dr. Ann Blake Tracy, heads the International Coalition for Drug Awareness, she says: "Suing Solvay for the injuries Mark Taylor suffered is one of the biggest SSRI suits we'll ever see," Tracy says. "It's a pivotal case because what happened at Columbine was so big. It's really crazy when you think about it. All you have to do is read the Luvox package insert to see that Eric's actions were due to an adverse reaction to this drug. Show me a drug anywhere that has listed mania and psychosis as frequent adverse reactions. That is what the insert says for Luvox. There is no doubt in my mind that Luvox caused Eric Harris to commit these acts."
The medical record of Dylan Klebold--and most "school shooters"-- have been sealed, allegedly to protect the minor child. But information relating to drugs and adverse reactions to them--especially a propensity to trigger violence--should be accessible to the public, as it is a public hazard. This is not an issue of privacy but rather an issue of cover-up. FDA should use its leverage to demand full disclosure of hazardous drug side-effects.


Content from External Source
The claim made by Brooks Brown is unsubstantiated about the January Incident being a ketchup incident. and flys in contradiction to the official explaination of the January Incident being their arrest. Harris's parents say that it was the van incident that Eric wasn't dealing with well and was having fits of rage that caused them to seek therapy for Eric. Brooks Brown was the only known connection that Harris and Klebold had to the "trenchcoat mafia" who were a group of misfits who had disbanded prior to Eric and Dylan attending Columbine. Could it be that Brooks held things back or was compromised after being initially accused of assisting and being a third gunman?
 

Ron Aigner

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Banned
Ron, I hope that you won't find my question stupid. I am somewhat of a stickler about documenting stories. You mention this "WALSH BUTTRAPE.TXT" file as being significant. What was the exact source of that file? I want everything, who created it, what date was the file created, when did it first emerge and how did it come to be in your possession? These are simple questions that I am sure you have faced before, and they deserve a straight answer.

How do you respond?
You apparently haven't gone to Mark and Donna's website.
http://columbinefamilyrequest.org/tag/sheriff/
 

Ron Aigner

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Banned
Yes, she was not given guardianship while he was in the hospital. According to her own statements, his own mother took him to the hospital, he wasn't "whisked off the streets".
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/03/15/columbine-tragedy-compounded/

She is claiming that she didn't know for a year that in order to control Mark's treatment she needed to get guardianship?
I find that very hard to believe, don't you?.

While she did not get guardianship, according to the court records which she is not disclosing, Todd E. Taylor was given guardianship:
http://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/ProbateCourtCases/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=PB2011-000036

I don't know who Todd E. Taylor is, possibly one of his 5 or more brothers and sisters, and Donna Taylor didn't mention that part of the story.

Don't you think it is significant that none of them is supporting their mother?


There is a whole lot of this story which Donna Taylor isn't being honest about. She seems to be the only one of the nine member family saying these things. She goes from one CT to another with her stories, leaving a trail of ever-expanding conspiracies against her from state to state, always asking for money.

I have come to the conclusion that there is a conspiracy here, and Donna Taylor likely let the cat out of the bag here:


You confuse the timeline. Mark was abducted in Colorado Springs, was released. He and Donna had left Colorado when he was abducted while passing through Arizona. Get your facts straight. If you think that she is always asking for money why don't you question what happened to the 7.5 million dollars that was stolen from the Columbine families by DA Thomas and used to run a drug clinic known as Columbine connections. Yes, she is penniless and homeless. What a sick country that would do this. Keep beating up on the victims. That seems to be what you are good at.
http://chs.freevar.com/archiv/chs_conn.htm
 

Ron Aigner

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Banned
Todd was given guardianship because he was chosen to go get Mark and bring him to Colorado. Mark's court appointed attorney colluded with Mark's dad to have him become the legal guardian. Truth is Mark doesn't need a legal guardian and wants to be released.
 

RolandD

Active Member
Ron, I'm not sure you have read all the posts in this thread. Almost all the allegations you have made in the last ten posts have already been debunked. You appear to be ignoring evidence in favor of fantasy.
 

Ron Aigner

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Banned
I can't actually see what they are claiming as evidence of conspiracy there. Some off theory about how the Columbine shooters actually wanted to kill cops, not kids. That makes zero sense, based on what actually happened.

And there seems to be no details about why Mark Taylor was arrested or detained.

It all seems a bit vague. What's to debunk?
Maybe you need to be debunked
 

Ron Aigner

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Banned
SR1419, great minds move in similar circles. This afternoon, I also googled the same as you, and found the same information. I don't particularly give that person any more credibility than Ron Aigner, but I asked Ron some very specific questions which he should have been able to easily answer.

He didn't answer my questions. That tells me that there is something he does not want to explain for some reason, even though the answers should be very simple.
I am always suspicious when I ask a specific set of direct questions (who, what, where, when, and why) which are basic starting points when describing an event, and the person who is expecting me to accept his story dodges the most basic questions.

I see Ron has used the old ploy, "Everybody else believes" on you.

That is sometimes called the "Bandwagon", he expects that if he plays a fine enough tune, everybody will begin to jump on his wagon, when he sees you asking why you should jump on, he doesn't answer your question, he just says, "Everybody else is jumping on, don't be stupid, there are hundreds of others who have already gotten on."

That is so simple minded, Ron. It won't work on critical thinkers.
there isn't much they can let me do for them.

[...]Take another quick look at the picture labeled Walsh Buttrape.txt. Are you on the side of the child bent over or are you on the side of the adult with a star on his torso? There is no middle ground here. Oh, to remind you, this pedophilia and it's cover up resulted in the deaths and maiming of scores of children. We are not playing games here. We are demanding a thorough independent investigation of the January Incident.
http://columbinefamilyrequest.org/tag/sheriff/
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Todd was given guardianship because he was chosen to go get Mark and bring him to Colorado. Mark's court appointed attorney colluded with Mark's dad to have him become the legal guardian. Truth is Mark doesn't need a legal guardian and wants to be released.

Then why is his Mother trying to be his legal guardian?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
This map is supposed to depict a sheriff raping a boy, and is apparently a key piece of evidence . It's an incredible stretch, and would obviously be laughed out of court.





All it is is a map of the area around W Deer Creek Canyon Road, and S Wadsworth Blvd (Hwy 121)

This is the police report of the 1998 incident.


https://maps.google.com/maps?q=wads...vd,+Littleton,+Jefferson,+Colorado+80123&z=19



There's a rocky area there that's popular with people, there's a botanical garden there to the South. Cars park by the side of the road, facing North.



The supposed "sheriff raping boy" is probably the small area of bushes around the fence, about 100 yards in from Hwy 121.



The scene matches perfectly, the cars, the regularly spaced large rocks, the bushes, the fence:



Of course that's not what it looked like in 1998, and the cars sem to be the wrong way (parallel, not perpendicular). But rolling back to 2002 in Google Earth shows that at that time, the parking area was larger, and cars parked perpendicular to the road, just like in the map.



The closest image available is 1999, a year after the map was drawn, but it's pretty much the same as the 2002 image.
 
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Grieves

Senior Member
DIdn't the BBC guy recently convicted on charges of systemic sexual abuse of minors have 'Satanic Rituals' as a prominent part of his pathology? He had accomplices, didn't he? There are likely more than 3 cases to be found surrounding those crimes alone.
 

Oxymoron

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Banned
There's a rocky area there that's popular with people, there's a botanical garden there to the South. Cars park by the side of the road, facing North.


Of course that's not what it looked like in 1998, and the cars sem to be the wrong way (parallel, not perpendicular). But rolling back to 2002 in Google Earth shows that at that time, the parking area was larger, and cars parked perpendicular to the road, just like in the map.

Good research, thanks. I didn't realise you could roll back to different years.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Good research, thanks. I didn't realise you could roll back to different years.

Yeah, you click on the year next to the Imagery Date in the bottom left, then you get the control and you can step through all the available images. They have some dating back to the 1930s (aerial photos from planes, not satellites, obviously).
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
Interesting that Ron Aigner has come back to try and save face. Probably because this metabunk thread features high on any google searches with his name and Mark Taylor's, and he has realized that he was called out on his claims. I'm not very interested in the case anymore, simply because Ron Aigner is involved. Wth a friend like Ron Aigner, who needs enemies? He invents his own enemies daily, perhaps 365 new ones every year......
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
I am still waiting for Ron to show us 3 cases of 'Satanistic pedophile' abuse that held up in court, or any thing concrete, like an alter with human blood on it.

I am going to ask him a question I asked another poster, "What is your definition of a Satanist?" Does it include New Age religions? pagans of any type? Santanaria? any other?
 

lotek

Active Member
there's never been an actual case of a satanic ritual murder in the usa. never. each one prosecuted has since been retracted for one reason or another, typically always bigotry. or a set up. or a normal murder, using satanism to cover that fact up. always used to get quick to judge, quick to convict christian whites to rubber stamp a case.

there is an awful sad story in an episode of the this american life radio show from this year of a boy who's life was ruined by being framed for being involved in a satanic murder, and guess what, it was an adult fucking kids who killed em, covered it up, and blamed it on a goth kid.... ill see if i cant find it.

and yes, i would ask does satanic mean occult? non christian? explicitly christian? crowley style? its not like it is a word with a real definition as most who self identify with it do not give a common definition of the word satan or are atheist and are in it for the hedonism.
 

Oxymoron

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Banned
I am still waiting for Ron to show us 3 cases of 'Satanistic pedophile' abuse that held up in court, or any thing concrete, like an alter with human blood on it.

I am going to ask him a question I asked another poster, "What is your definition of a Satanist?" Does it include New Age religions? pagans of any type? Santanaria? any other?

It is an interesting question. Ostensibly, I think it is viewed as a person or group who deify or worship Satan. But this appears to be contradicted by satanic websites.

http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/index.html

[SIZE=+1][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]we are the first above-ground organization in history openly dedicated to the acceptance of Man’s true nature—that of a carnal beast, living in a cosmos that is indifferent to our existence. [SIZE=+1]To us, Satan is the symbol that best suits the nature of we who are carnal by birth[SIZE=+1]—people who feel no battles raging between our thoughts and feelings, we who do not embrace the concept of a soul imprisoned in a body. He represents pride, liberty, and individualism[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]—[/FONT]qualities often defined as Evil by those who worship external deities, who feel there is a war between their minds and emotions. [/SIZE]As Anton LaVey explained in his classic work The Sa[/SIZE]tanic Bible, Man—using his brain—invented all the Gods, doing so because many of our species cannot accept or control their personal egos, feeling compelled to conjure up one or a multiplicity of characters who can act without hindrance or guilt upon whims and desires. All Gods are thus externalized forms, magnified projections of the true nature of their creators, personifying aspects of the universe or personal temperaments which many of their followers find to be troubling. Worshipping any God is thus worshipping by proxy those who invented that God. Since the Satanist understands that all Gods are fiction, instead of bending a knee in worship to[SIZE=+1]—[/SIZE]or seeking friendship or unity with[/FONT][SIZE=+1][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=+1]—[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]such mythical entities, he places himself at the center of his own subjective universe as his own highest value. We Satanists are thus our own “Gods,”[SIZE=+1] and as beneficent “deities” we can offer love to those who deserve it and deliver our wrath (within reasonable limits) upon those who seek to cause us[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]—[/FONT]or that which we cherish[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]—[/FONT]harm. [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Magus Gilmore’s essay [SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1]“What, The Devil?[SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1]”[/SIZE][/SIZE] from The Satanic Scriptures discusses this in greater detail.[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE]
Content from External Source
The above site appears to indicate more of a construct for sexual gratification without moral impediment and a freedom to 'do as you will' but with a caveat that it should be lawful. I.e. 'do as you will' but be prepared to accept the consequences.

Perhaps Cairenn can give some insight on this, rather than simply posing a question?
 
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Cairenn

Senior Member.
Wiccans or pagan are NOT Satanists and we have no beliefs that include 'Satan'. To be a Satanist, one has to believe in the Judo/Christian/Islamic system, with a single god and a fallen 'angel' as Satan or under some other name.

One thing that underlies most of Wicca is the read , 'Do as you will, but HARM none'. Along with that goes the belief in karma, that what bad you do, comes back at you at least 3 fold.

I think that folks can see how close that is to ' Do unto others as you would have them do to you."
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Wiccans or pagan are NOT Satanists and we have no beliefs that include 'Satan'. To be a Satanist, one has to believe in the Judo/Christian/Islamic system, with a single god and a fallen 'angel' as Satan or under some other name.

One thing that underlies most of Wicca is the read , 'Do as you will, but HARM none'. Along with that goes the belief in karma, that what bad you do, comes back at you at least 3 fold.

I think that folks can see how close that is to ' Do unto others as you would have them do to you."

Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting that Wiccans were Satanists. But I do find it difficult to rationalise Wicca as it is obviously open to interpretation by the practitioner, as are other 'religions'. It does appear to have an element of 'witchcraft' involved and is a duotheistic doctrine. I suppose anything involving horned gods and magic could easily be misinterpreted as satanic.

Does Wicca preclude atheism?

Satanism does not appear to preclude atheism as 'man is as a god'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca

Wicca (English pronunciation: /ˈwɪkə/) is a modern pagan, witchcraft religion. It was developed in England during the first half of the 20th century and it was introduced to the public in 1952 by Gerald Gardner, a retired British civil servant. It draws upon a diverse set of ancient pagan and 20th century hermetic motifs for its theological structure and ritual practice.

Wicca is a diverse religion with no central authority or figure defining it. It is divided into various lineages and denominations, referred to as "traditions", each with its own organisational structure and level of centralisation. Due to its decentralized nature, there is some disagreement over what actually constitutes Wicca. Some traditions, collectively referred to as British Traditional Wicca, strictly follow the initiatory lineage of Gardner and consider the term "Wicca" to apply only to such lineaged traditions, while other eclectic traditions do not.

Wicca is typically duotheistic, worshipping a god and goddess traditionally viewed as a mother goddess and horned god. These two deities are often viewed as facets of a greater pantheistic godhead. However, beliefs range from "hard" polytheism to even monotheism. Wiccan celebration follows approximately eight seasonally based festivals known as Sabbats. An unattributed statement known as the Wiccan Rede is the traditional basis of Wiccan morality. Wicca involves the ritual practice of magic.

Content from External Source
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
Can you show me where in the bible that Satan is defined as having horns?

In the sects of Wicca that come from the Celtic pantheon, the horned God is Cernunnos or Herne, but other gods are often included, at Lughassa in Aug, I want something to represent Lugh, at Yule it will often be the Holly King and the Oak king.

Most wiccans I know look at it more as honoring the Creator in their many aspects. Samhein, Imbolc, Beltane and Lughnassa are more Celtic holidays, where as Yule, Ostera, Litha and Magbon are more general pagan.

There are times the coven I am in will use Hindu deities, or native American, or Mayan. If I run a Sabbat, it will tend to be very Celtic, one of the other ladies will tend toward Greek/Roman, another one will often include Eastern deities and another will often include various north and south American deities. The priestesses are all initiated in the Dianic tradition.

We have a lot less black and white, but Satan or anyone with any of his names are never included. Those are strictly Christian.

Folks can call their selves Satanist or Jedis, that doesn't mean they are. I believe Jedi is a recognized religion in Australia
 

Oxymoron

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Banned
Can you show me where in the bible that Satan is defined as having horns?

In the sects of Wicca that come from the Celtic pantheon, the horned God is Cernunnos or Herne, but other gods are often included, at Lughassa in Aug, I want something to represent Lugh, at Yule it will often be the Holly King and the Oak king.

Most wiccans I know look at it more as honoring the Creator in their many aspects. Samhein, Imbolc, Beltane and Lughnassa are more Celtic holidays, where as Yule, Ostera, Litha and Magbon are more general pagan.

There are times the coven I am in will use Hindu deities, or native American, or Mayan. If I run a Sabbat, it will tend to be very Celtic, one of the other ladies will tend toward Greek/Roman, another one will often include Eastern deities and another will often include various north and south American deities. The priestesses are all initiated in the Dianic tradition.

We have a lot less black and white, but Satan or anyone with any of his names are never included. Those are strictly Christian.

Folks can call their selves Satanist or Jedis, that doesn't mean they are. I believe Jedi is a recognized religion in Australia

So Wiccans cannot be Atheists if they believe in Karma?

I am familiar with Herne the Hunter, he is represented as a stag isn't he. Cernunnos is knew to me. Seems there is only one or two obscure mentions about 1000 years ago. Why would Satan having horns have to originate in the Bible?
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
I do not know of any atheists that are wiccans/pagans. All wiccans are pagans, but all pagans are not wiccans.

You seemed to be equating any representation of a horned god, with Satan. I was trying to point out that there no where in the Bible were he identified as having horns. The representations of him that we normally seen are highly influenced by illustrations of the the Roman god Pan.

Most likely you had not heard of Cernunnos, either because you have not read a lot of Celtic mythology, or because he has often been identified as Herne. It does appear that they are most likely the same god, with different name. Many Celtic deities were Romanized, during the Roman occupation of England.

Both Herne and Cernunnos are often depicted with the horns of a stag. Often they seem to be part of a headdress instead of actual horns.

It is always interesting to see how more research 'shoots' down common beliefs. Vikings wearing helms that had horns on them is an excellent example. There are a couple of finds that some thought were 'horned helms', (at least one of those was a mistake---the folks put 2 things together that didn't go together. Dinosaur skeletons suffer that same problem) and some mentions of 'horn helms' in Viking sagas. However, what seems to be correct is that the Vikings used HORN plates in their helms. We have found the remains of those. Horn was often used as we do plastic today. The first lanterns were 'lamp horns' with the side plates being made of horn.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
I do not know of any atheists that are wiccans/pagans. All wiccans are pagans, but all pagans are not wiccans.

You seemed to be equating any representation of a horned god, with Satan. I was trying to point out that there no where in the Bible were he identified as having horns. The representations of him that we normally seen are highly influenced by illustrations of the the Roman god Pan.

Most likely you had not heard of Cernunnos, either because you have not read a lot of Celtic mythology, or because he has often been identified as Herne. It does appear that they are most likely the same god, with different name. Many Celtic deities were Romanized, during the Roman occupation of England.

Both Herne and Cernunnos are often depicted with the horns of a stag. Often they seem to be part of a headdress instead of actual horns.

It is always interesting to see how more research 'shoots' down common beliefs. Vikings wearing helms that had horns on them is an excellent example. There are a couple of finds that some thought were 'horned helms', (at least one of those was a mistake---the folks put 2 things together that didn't go together. Dinosaur skeletons suffer that same problem) and some mentions of 'horn helms' in Viking sagas. However, what seems to be correct is that the Vikings used HORN plates in their helms. We have found the remains of those. Horn was often used as we do plastic today. The first lanterns were 'lamp horns' with the side plates being made of horn.

Atheism and Wicca do appear mutually exclusive. I must say, I am interested in how you manage to harmonise your quest for 'logical proofs/evidence' with your belief in mythical deities and magic? I recall you stating how you debunked Santa because you could not rationalise him popping down chimneys.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
I choose to believe in a 'Creator'. No it is not totally logical, but I find comfort in that. The various gods and goddesses are our attempt to put a 'human' face on something we cannot touch or test. Many of the rituals that Wiccans do have positive psychological benefits. Take one that is fairly common. You write things you wish to remove from your life, like anger at a certain person, or a something that troubles you and you burn it or you place it in a box and bury it, letting the earth cleanse it. By doing that you recognize the problem, accept that you need to change how you feel about it and then you DO something symbolic to effect that change.

I really WANT some psi powers to be real. I have no real evidence of that however. Some interesting 'occurrences', like a friend calling me late one night and telling me that my hubby and I needed to learn to shield our arguments. Yes we had just had a huge argument. But we had others and she didn't call.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
I choose to believe in a 'Creator'. No it is not totally logical, but I find comfort in that. The various gods and goddesses are our attempt to put a 'human' face on something we cannot touch or test. Many of the rituals that Wiccans do have positive psychological benefits. Take one that is fairly common. You write things you wish to remove from your life, like anger at a certain person, or a something that troubles you and you burn it or you place it in a box and bury it, letting the earth cleanse it. By doing that you recognize the problem, accept that you need to change how you feel about it and then you DO something symbolic to effect that change.

I really WANT some psi powers to be real. I have no real evidence of that however. Some interesting 'occurrences', like a friend calling me late one night and telling me that my hubby and I needed to learn to shield our arguments. Yes we had just had a huge argument. But we had others and she didn't call.

Are you saying that you suspend cognitive reasoning re arcane ritual because it gives you comfort?
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
I am saying that I do not have to defend my religious beliefs to you or anyone else.

I gave you an answer and there was no reason for you to challenge me on that. I am not trying to convert you, just providing information when you post something that is in accurate.

I wonder why you could not accept my answer and drop it.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
I am saying that I do not have to defend my religious beliefs to you or anyone else.

I gave you an answer and there was no reason for you to challenge me on that. I am not trying to convert you, just providing information when you post something that is in accurate.

I wonder why you could not accept my answer and drop it.

I was just interested because I found it fascinating. I am not challenging your religious beliefs merely trying to understand how you can apply one set of rules to that and another juxtaposed set of rules to conspiracy theories. I don't say 'why are you challenging my belief in a certain conspiracy theory, why can't you just accept it', do I?

You could always just ignore it and I wouldn't press it. I would get the message it was not open for discussion then.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
This is a debunking site, not one for religious discussion. I TOLD you WHY.

I pointed out the psychological implications and how they can be useful.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
This is a debunking site, not one for religious discussion. I TOLD you WHY.

I pointed out the psychological implications and how they can be useful.

Sorry. Thought religious stuff was also up for discussion, admittedly on a different thread but I thought you liked to pursue it.

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/1131-RFID-implants-the-Bible-and-World-Domination/page3

Really someone has been embalmed and come back to life. Do you know what is done in embalming? The blood in the body is replaced with embalming fluid, which is "Typically embalming fluid contains a mixture of formaldehyde, methanol, and other solvents. The formaldehyde content generally ranges from 5 to 29 percent and the ethanol content may range from 9 to 56 percent" The hollow organs are also filled with it. So you think that someone that has been embalmed can return to life?
And sorry the 'near death' experiences are not FACTS. If I have ever one, I would expect to see a large group of Irish Setters welcoming me and rainbow bridge. If I wake up and tell folks, would I expect them all to believe me--nope. It is not proof, it is just a 'dream' of a dying brain. And yes I do expect a welcoming party of silky red dogs, with a couple of huskies and a lab and a sheltie.
Good for you. I know that a land of summer awaits me, until the time I decide to return to earth to learn more. That doesn't mean I want to go there now.
To deny care that can save your life is to give your creator, the flying fig. I wonder how he likes that?
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/1131-RFID-implants-the-Bible-and-World-Domination/page4

I want to know about the folks you said had been embalmed and then came back to life.
I am still waiting for you proof of an embalmed corpse coming back to life.
 
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Cairenn

Senior Member.
That was all in debunking the implanted RFID story and folks claiming that it is the 'mark of the beast' It was not about religion.

I would have thought that you would have realized that.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
That was all in debunking the implanted RFID story and folks claiming that it is the 'mark of the beast' It was not about religion.

I would have thought that you would have realized that.

No it escaped me, probably because I didn't make the link between debunking RFID's and repeatedly demanding proofs of an embalmed body coming back to life.
The thread is: RFID implants, the Bible, and World Domination

Religion seemed to play a biggish part with religious people being graded as varyingly nutty depending on how much they believed in it.

Yep - even hollywood bombshells can be nuts - and not bombshells too - thinhk about Scientologists and "Traditional Catholics" for example. It is of course a graduated thing - the more nutty and extreme the belief, the nuttier the nut job.

FWIW I spoke in tongues a few times......3 or 4 decades ago!!
 
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