Debunked: 15 Minute Cities are a plot to confine people into regimented zones

[Ann K]

so what do we do when we're too old to safely drive?

I had heard about some urban planning in the US (Houston?) zoning suburbs as exclusively residential; if you disallow mixed zoning, there's no space for commerce to set up near people's homes.

That's when we become dependents, when we can't drive. Probably into a senior home.

Zoning such as you describe is predicated on using an automobile, thus causing traffic problems for the folks whenever they leave their nice, quiet, separate homes. I spent a week in a business segment of Detroit once, in which our large building (and I think most of the others) had no cafeteria. All the food outlets were in their own district about two or three miles away; too far to walk in a lunch break of an hour, and almost too far to drive in the inevitable lunchtime traffic backup. All the businesses had tiny exit ramps to the main street, and every tiny ramp glittered with pieces of broken tail lights and scraps of metal. It was a nightmare of poor planning.

 

[deirdre]

zoning suburbs as exclusively residential; if you disallow mixed zoning, there's no space for commerce to set up near people's homes.

that's the whole point of suburbs. people move to the suburbs because [allegedly] quality of life is better. As far as i know Houston has no zoning laws...i wonder if voters are clamoring for residential zones because of this. ?

Anyway in AMerica there are mixed reasons for (non-foodbank, farmer markets etc) food "deserts". I'm going to fairly confidently say price of good food is the major factor. It's ridiculous how much it costs to eat healthy here. A pound of frozen french fries is cheaper than a cantalope (and like 6?x the calories)

A few years ago i remember stories about how our "dollar store"s popularity drove out alot of grocery stores from areas. That's my main question with 15 minute cities. can the necessary services even stay in business in 15 min walking intervals? if so...then cool.

But with all of America's regulations and workers rights and insurance requirements... ie. if it was affordable/profitable groceries would be in more locations and would offer fresher foods.
Even our food stamp programs dont encourage healthy eating, they used to tell you what you could buy (and frozen french fries and sugar water for kids weren't on the list), but now you can buy whatever, so people often buy the cheapest foods to make the money fill tummies more.

In America, the not-low-income people eat better, not due to grocery stores within a mile... but because they can afford to. Little bodegos every 200 feet are nice, but smaller stores mean higher prices. (i do like the idea of parks every 15 minutes..but parks do take up space from other [alleged] 'necessary' services in that 15 minute zone.

 

[Mendel]

That's when we become dependents, when we can't drive. Probably into a senior home.

both my grandmothers didn't even have cars, and they still went out shopping by themselves at well over 80, because they lived in small German towns and could.

 

[aconspiracytheorist]

I've been incorrect at least once in my life, I'm sure. Would you care to identify which thing that I've said you are now talking about? If you believe you have counter-evidence to any claim I've made, quote it and provide a link to it.

Unless you're just repeating your - demonstrated by Landru to be completely missing the point - silly screenshot from yesterday. In which case, don't bother, that response has already been laughed at enough.

the zones are in 15 minute regiments and people are kept in these, by design, through removing their need to travel outside of them.

whether or not the intended purpose is nefarious or earnest, the design is clear.

 

[Mendel]

people are kept in these, by design, through removing their need to travel outside of them.

no

people are kept in them by removing the possibility to travel outside them

which even the Australian lockdown example failed to do

open a history book and read up on the Jewish ghettoes in Nazi Germany (e.g. the Warsaw ghetto) if you want to know what keeping people in a zone means

15 minute cites do not do that, you are needlessly scared

 

[Ann K]

the zones are in 15 minute regiments and people are kept in these, by design, through removing their need to travel outside of them.

What's the alternative that you seem to prefer? Forcing people to go outside their area because they can't find the services they need nearby? Removing a convenience so an inconvenience is inevitable? That's the logical opposite of:

removing their need to travel outside of them.

 

[John J.]

the zones are in 15 minute regiments and people are kept in these, by design, through removing their need to travel outside of them.

(Admission: I don't know what a 15-minute regiment is).
If you live in a major city you could probably live without travelling elsewhere. But people travel anyway.

the policy is designed to place all essential services for every human need within 15-minutes walking distance

Let's go back to the original example of a 15-minute city proposal on this thread, Oxford.
You might be aware that Oxford is a University city.
Are the colleges going to be disbanded, or are they going to be "distributed" so that each square mile gets a bit?

(Or each 1.099 square mile;
Let's say the average walking speed of a reasonably healthy adult is 5 km/h (roughly 3.11 mph) so in 15 minutes we cover 1250 metres. You could hypothetically divide an urban area into squares, each side approx. 1.768km (about 1.099 miles), with services in the centre of the square- that way, the distance from the corners of the square to the centre is approx. 1250m, a 15-minute walk).

-Or the Mini (car) factory? How do you spread that about? Or the Bodleian library? Or the major trauma centre at the John Radcliffe hospital? The University and Mini factory are major revenue streams that "THEY" might want to preserve.

In reality, it's hard to see how Oxford City and Oxfordshire County Councils could guarantee that there would be specific services within each zone, outside of what local government is already obliged to provide- and often has problems providing.

County councils are responsible for education up to 16, social services, road maintenance, fire and rescue, and libraries (I think). Oxford City Council is essentially a district council, responsible for waste collection, some social housing ("council houses"), parking, planning decisions about proposed new buildings or conversions etc., and setting and collecting Council Tax.

A local council can't oblige a doctor's practice, a hairdressing salon or a grocery store to set up business in a given area, and wouldn't have the budget to hire or subsidise such services. Maybe a council could use planning decisions to prevent new services setting up "in the wrong area", in the hope that the service owner/ provider chooses to relocate to where the council wants- but they can't say "You WILL work THERE". I guess they could selectively reduce business rates as an incentive, not sure.

Plus, as I've pointed out earlier, in the UK, county councils and district councils don't control police forces. They don't have the power to physically coerce the population. Nor can they make decisions in conflict with primary legislation.
The police force responsible for Oxford (and Oxfordshire), Thames Valley Police, is operationally independent of local government.

 

[Alexandria Nick]

whether or not the intended purpose is nefarious or earnest, the design is clear.

No, an emphatic no.

The basic idea is to reduce energy consumption by encouraging the development of areas better served by foot traffic and high occupancy vehicles. These already existed. Prior to about 1950, this is how virtually everyone that lived in anything bigger than a village went about their day. Nowhere is there any "and we'll keep them in there!" aspect because it doesn't make any sense nor is even feasible.

In 1892, if you were a common industrial worker, that's how your life was. You didn't own any personal conveyance because they didn't exist. You walked or took the streetcar to the mill that was 10 or 15 minutes away. Your wife did all of her shopping on foot, because everything she needed to get to was within a couple of minutes walk. When you were done with your busy day of pouring out molten steel or whatever, you staggered to the tavern to get good and loaded, then went home to eat something. On your day off, you, the wife, and your 8 kids piled into the interurban and went off to the amusement park for the day. Which was probably an hour or more away.

The only social engineering aspect here is that there is a general idea that a simpler lifestyle is a happier lifestyle, rather than getting crammed into a car for an hour or two a day. Now, I'd possibly dispute that because people had pretty miserable lives in the industrial hellscape back then, so I'm not sure there's any basis for the claim. But hemming people into pens? No way. That's not even possible.

 

[FatPhil]

the zones are in 15 minute regiments and people are kept in these, by design, through removing their need to travel outside of them.

That would only be true if all people are incapable of doing anything that they don't absolutely need.

People are capable of doing things that they don't absolutely need.

Keep -> ~Capable
Capable
=> ~Keep

Therefore people are not kept in these zones.

 

[Mendel]

The only social engineering aspect here is that there is a general idea that a simpler lifestyle is a happier lifestyle, rather than getting crammed into a car for an hour or two a day.

I've lived car-less for over three decades of my life and enjoyed it very much. That includes life time with small children, but it stopped when we moved to a small village.

 

[FatPhil]

I've lived car-less for over three decades of my life and enjoyed it very much. That includes life time with small children, but it stopped when we moved to a small village.

Oxford was bike-able when I was at uni. (80s/90s)
The suburb of NW London where I got my first job was bike-able too. (90s)
Helsinki was walkable when I moved to Finland, as my accomodation and job were right in the centre. (90s)
Loughborough was bike-able when I returned to England. (90s)
The district in Espoo was walkable, and Helsinki was tram-/bus-able, when I returned to Finland, but I will confess the distance between the two was a bit annoying. (00s)
Tallinn is walkable, and when we're feeling lazy, trammable. (10s-20s)

To me, a car is little more than someone else's smelly annoyance. I don't even have a driver's licence. Neither does the g/f, as she's visually impaired.