Ryan Grave's Description of a 100-Yard Red Square over Vandenberg AFB

Football-field-sized UAPs are fairly common in the history of sightings. As well as the Twenty-Nine Palms event mentioned above,
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/ry...-square-over-vandenberg-afb.13066/post-295721
I am reminded of the Phoenix Lights event in 1997, which seems to have consisted of two separate football-field-sized events (one at 20:00 and one at 22:00), the first one apparently caused by planes flying in formation and the second by a flare drop.

Large scale sightings of this type can occur whenever several different craft fly in formation - there have been a number of more recent events caused by drones flying in formation with synchronised lights, though I'm fairly sure that most people who see such events think 'drones' rather than 'aliens' nowadays.
 
though I'm fairly sure that most people who see such events think 'drones' rather than 'aliens' nowadays.
i dont know about that. i think most people think of those little hobby helicopters when they hear the term 'drone'. If you feel the lights are at any decent altitude, hobby drones with their tiny lights would likely be dismissed.
 
do you think if you messaged him to see if he'd be willing to share any of the info or documentation he received from this witness he'd be open to sharing with you?
He replied, saying he'd check with the witness and his team and would get back to me.
 
Looks like a reasonable curriculum with some interesting biology and chemistry options. Hits most all the physics subjects that would be on a physics GRE.

If he graduated in Physics and is spouting extra-dimensional hypothesis like it's orthodox he is clearly misleading laymen or he graduated without a spread of knowledge in the subject he claims to be an expert in.
 
If he graduated in Physics and is spouting extra-dimensional hypothesis like it's orthodox he is clearly misleading laymen or he graduated without a spread of knowledge in the subject he claims to be an expert in.
I don’t disagree. It it would seem that it wasn’t the fault of the university, which appears to have a good physics curriculum.

It would seem more that it supports his narrative to spout science fiction nonsense, with him assuming that he could use his credentials to attempt to give it an air of veracity.
 
and is spouting extra-dimensional hypothesis like it's orthodox

luckily that's like the second ever scene in the popular tv show Big Bang Theory (so im guessing a few people know multidimensions is hypothesis)

Leonard: at least i didnt have to invent 20 dimensions to make the math come out.
Sheldon: i didnt invent them, they're there.
Leonard: In what Universe!!!
Sheldon: In all of them. That is the point.
 
luckily that's like the second ever scene in the popular tv show Big Bang Theory (so im guessing a few people know multidimensions is hypothesis)

Leonard: at least i didnt have to invent 20 dimensions to make the math come out.
Sheldon: i didnt invent them, they're there.
Leonard: In what Universe!!!
Sheldon: In all of them. That is the point.

Maybe David thinks that if he sounds all scientificy people will take these absurd ideas seriously.

I'd like to know who his sources are. Have we guessed correctly on at least some of them?
 
Have we guessed correctly on at least some of them?
Are you asking me to use my psychic abilities? I'm not sure i want to project inside his head, what if his imagination of the alien bodies is all mangled and gruesome (after the ship crash)? I don't want to see that.
 
Maybe David thinks that if he sounds all scientificy people will take these absurd ideas seriously.

I'd like to know who his sources are. Have we guessed correctly on at least some of them?

He clearly also doesn't understand Bayes Theorem when he replies to the question 'why are ufos crashing if they are so technological advanced' and he compares it to the 100,000 daily commuter airlines flights that malfunction once every 5-6 years - like Mick West explained brilliantly.
 
I don’t disagree. It it would seem that it wasn’t the fault of the university, which appears to have a good physics curriculum.

It would seem more that it supports his narrative to spout science fiction nonsense, with him assuming that he could use his credentials to attempt to give it an air of veracity.
He'll fit in well with the SWR crowd, including Travis "Wormhole" Taylor.
 
I don’t disagree. It it would seem that it wasn’t the fault of the university, which appears to have a good physics curriculum.

It would seem more that it supports his narrative to spout science fiction nonsense, with him assuming that he could use his credentials to attempt to give it an air of veracity.
OR ...it's just the usual "use it or lose it". If he went into administration and management instead of working as a physicist, it's easy to forget what you learned in the classroom. He was busy learning other skills.

I'm talking about Grusch, but the same might be said of Travis Taylor. It's a mistake, in that case, to tout your academic work if you're not exercising it any more.
 
If he graduated in Physics and is spouting extra-dimensional hypothesis like it's orthodox
I don’t disagree. It it would seem that it wasn’t the fault of the university, which appears to have a good physics curriculum.

It would seem more that it supports his narrative to spout science fiction nonsense
Maybe David thinks that if he sounds all scientificy people will take these absurd ideas seriously.

I've been spending some time going over the Nolan /Vallee /Jiang / Lemke paper,
"Improved instrumental techniques, including isotopic analysis, applicable to the characterization of unusual materials with potential relevance to aerospace forensics." Progress in Aerospace Sciences Vol. 128, 1 January 2022.

They claim,
Spintronics has been previously investigated in US government analysis of unconventional craft in the Defense Intelligence Reference Documents produced under the Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Applications Program (AAWSAP) program (see item #24 Metallic Spintronics [20]).
Content from External Source
The citation [20] gives us this link https://irp.fas.org/dia/aatip-list.pdf (PDF attached below), a list of papers
...that was recently transmitted to Congress of all DIA products produced under the Advanced Aerospace Threat and Identification Program contract
Content from External Source
by the Defense Intelligence Agency in response to a Freedom of Information Act Request.
(Quote from DIA cover letter sent with the requested list).

The papers appear (to me) to be about topics that AATIP, or at least some staff at AATIP, had an interest in and maybe commissioned. There is no evidence that the papers, or their subject matters, were used in, or resulted from, the "...analysis of unconventional craft" (Nolan, Vallee et al.)

It would seem that many of these papers deal with theoretical concepts and "blue sky" research in areas that are currently beyond our technological abilities to exploit in any practical fashion. Nothing wrong in that, long-term thinking can pay off.
Well, nothing wrong unless you're using public money to fund research from arguably questionable sources, such as Hal Puthoff's EarthTech International.
Just for fun, I've highlighted some of the more "out there" papers (which is of course subjective).
I've used an asterisk to identify "EarthTech"-origin papers.

p1.JPG


p2.JPG


p3.JPG

One of the papers I've highlighted is "Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and the Manipulation of Extra Dimensions".

(Edited to add: I mention this because of Mr Grusch's comments about UAP maybe coming from other dimensions).

Maybe it's possible that Mr Grusch found himself in an environment where papers like this were being read and/or archived by some of his peers/ seniors, and got the impression that such material had a direct bearing on their work, or was actively being used in, or originated from, the examination of retrieved technology/ "pilots".
 

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One of the papers I've highlighted is "Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and the Manipulation of Extra Dimensions".

Maybe it's possible that Mr Grusch found himself in an environment where papers like this were being read and/or archived by some of his peers/ seniors, and got the impression that such material had a direct bearing on their work, or was actively being used in, or originated from, the examination of retrieved technology/ "pilots".
That paper is available online:

Link to paper

Note that it is almost 15 years old and string theory never got anywhere in that time.

A quick look shows that it is a reasonable review of the limits of physics understanding at the time and covers topics like dark energy, extra dimensions in mathematical theories, and warp drive ideas. It basically concludes that there are aspects of physics we don’t understand now and that perhaps one day human imagination will figure out ways to harness these in a practical way.
 
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I've read the Davis paper about wormholes, as part of my own reading into the concept. Davis makes a good summary of the publications by various authors in the scientific literature; but the last third of the paper deals with the role of wormholes in telepathy and other paranormal subjects. Presumably this is all tied in with the Skinwalker stuff and remote viewing, but the last part of the paper is complete garbage.
 
Looks like we will get an update on this claim today at 5 EST

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDXqiMqV2zU
in the description of that video, Graves is promoting https://www.aiaauap.org/ .

Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena Integration & Outreach Committee
American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics

Mission
To improve aerospace safety by enhancing scientific knowledge of, and mitigating barriers to the study of, Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena (UAP)
[screenshot of GIMBAL]
Representing over 30,000 aerospace engineers, the UAPIOC is a diverse group of dedicated volunteers with a broad set of technical skills from many different fields and disciplines.
  • Aerospace Engineering
  • Military and Civil Aviation
  • Data Science and Analytics
  • Intelligence and Technology Research Analysts
We are a data-driven, neutral, scientifically focused team!
Content from External Source
Using GIMBAL here kinda undercuts the claim that they're about enhancing scientific knowledge. Their endeavour is founded on the belief that UAP represent non-human technology, and (pseudo-)science has to serve that.

Is anyone familiar with the AIAA? Why would they support this?
 
I am getting nuts of all the silly acronyms they invent all the time. Seems we never have enough.
AIAA has been around over 50 years, it's the US professional association of aerospace engineering. I'm a former member. Analogous to SAE for MEs and IEEE for EEs
 
It would seem that many of these papers deal with theoretical concepts and "blue sky" research in areas that are currently beyond our technological abilities to exploit in any practical fashion.
It's a strange list. Why are there no dates for any of the citations? Guess that's classified... Searching the titles of the papers brings up real papers that are all very close, but I guess there's only so many ways to phrase a title. (shrug emoji).
 
in the description of that video, Graves is promoting https://www.aiaauap.org/ .
I agree, in the modern vernacular, that GIMBAL image was pure cringe. I also noticed this:
Leadership
Ryan Graves
Content from External Source
which says nothing but "vanity project" to me.

To me, I'm not even at the "Why would they support this?" stage yet - I'm more in the "Do they know about this?" stage.

Domains completely unrelated. NetSol (AIAA) vs. Squarespace!?!?!?
Copyrights notices completly unrelated: "Copyright © 2023 AIAA UAP Integration & Outreach Committee" vs. "© 2023 American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics"
I haven't found any links between their sites at all yet - but please correct me if you find one.

This, however, it spookinly similar:
Representing over 30,000 aerospace engineers, the UAPIOC is...
Content from External Source
vs. aiaa.org's
With nearly 30,000 individual members from 91 countries, and 95 corporate members, AIAA is ...
Content from External Source
Suddenly every member of AIAA is now being represented by this new bunch of GIMBAL-pushers? Is that what they are all paying their dues for?

This smells dodgy to me.
 
This, however, it spookinly similar:
Representing over 30,000 aerospace engineers, the UAPIOC is...
Content from External Source
vs. aiaa.org's

With nearly 30,000 individual members from 91 countries, and 95 corporate members, AIAA is ...
Content from External Source
Yes, they're suggesting the committee represents the entire AIAA membership. Hence I'm wondering why AIAA set up this committee and let Graves run it?
 
To me, I'm not even at the "Why would they support this?" stage yet - I'm more in the "Do they know about this?" stage.
Officially? Yes.
Article:
AIAA Integration and Outreach Committees (IOCs) are differentiated from technical committees in that they are focused on the cross-discipline integration/ programmatic and societal interface/ outreach areas of interest of the Institute, and often span more than one technical discipline in their scope.

Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena
The Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena Integration & Outreach Committee (UAPIOC) seeks to improve aviation safety by enhancing scientific knowledge of, and mitigating barriers to, the study of Unidentified Aerospace Phenomena (UAP).
 
Apparently, this was set up in February.

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/119hggg/comment/j9m47q9/


Their presentation is online at https://arc.aiaa.org/doi/abs/10.2514/6.2023-4322 .

SmartSelect_20231108-012457_Samsung Internet.jpg
Abstract:
View Video Presentation: https://doi.org/10.2514/6.2023-4322.vid
The AIAA Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena (UAP) Integration and Outreach Committee (IOC) is working to improve aviation safety by enhancing scientific knowledge of, and mitigating barriers to, the study of UAP. The IOC is organized around three subcommittees chartered to perform outreach activities, address human factors issues, and support stakeholders with hardware factors analysis related to the detection, characterization, and evaluation of UAP. This paper provides an overview of the approach being implemented to further the understanding of objects of unknown origin operating in controlled airspaces.
Content from External Source
 
Why would they support this?
airline safety is an important thing..regardless of if people like Graves believes in extraterrestrials.

as far as hiring Graves, it could be that aerospace guys tend to believe (or want to believe) in ET UFOs?

either way it's a great marketing idea to bring in new members, since ufos is a hot topic. What i dont get is why some people have to pay for 50 years but others only 15 years...what am i missing here?

Article:
Lifetime Membership – You'll enjoy uninterrupted AIAA membership benefits, know that your dues are paid for life, protect yourself against future dues increases, and gain the prestige of becoming a Lifetime Member of AIAA. The cost is the equivalent of 15 years (15 times the applicable full dues rate) and can be paid in one dues payment, or convenient installment payments of two, four, or eight payments. To join contact AIAA Customer Service.

Emeritus Membership – Open to all members who have paid their dues continuously for 50 years. You never have to pay dues again. To receive this benefit, contact AIAA Customer Service.
 
airline safety is an important thing..regardless of if people like Graves believes in extraterrestrials.
Yes.
But studying UFOs doesn't do anything for aviation safety.
Studying birds would, they're an actual threat.
AIAA does not have a committee on birds.
 
But studying UFOs doesn't do anything for aviation safety.
Studying birds would, they're an actual threat.

obviously they dont know the ufos are birds. or drones. or balloons. or parallaxes etc.

kinda hard to believe about a bunch of alleged 'expert' aerospace engineers...but that seems to be the case. :)
 
obviously they dont know the ufos are birds.
I did not say the UFOs are birds.
I am saying identified birds are a danger to aviation, UAPs are not.
Sullenberger had to land on the Hudson because of birds. There was nothing unidentified about it.
 
Vandenberg Air Force Base (now Space Force Base) is a fairly substantial set-up, isn't it?
Something red, square-shaped, a 100 yards a side, would be visible for quite some way around if it was above a launch facility.

Why would only Boeing contractors see it?
No bored clerks or canteen staff looking out the window? No airmen nipping outside for a crafty cigarette?
As mentioned in an earlier thread-Base security.

You'd suppose it's in their remit to keep at least one eye on the surrounding area for approaching 'threats'.
 
It would seem that many of these papers deal with theoretical concepts and "blue sky" research in areas that are currently beyond our technological abilities to exploit in any practical fashion.

It's a strange list. Why are there no dates for any of the citations? Guess that's classified... Searching the titles of the papers brings up real papers that are all very close, but I guess there's only so many ways to phrase a title. (shrug emoji).

Not wanting to distract from the current flow of discussion, but responding to Giddierone's point,
the AATIP papers are "real" as far as I know.

As examples,
AmberRobot found "Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and the Manipulation of Extra Dimensions", number 19 of the 38 AATIP papers
That paper is available online:

Link to paper

...and looking into something else, I found paper number 24, Metallic Spintronics, by Dr. M. Tsoi of the University of Texas at Austin (PDF below).

Luis Elizondo, mentioned elsewhere on this forum, claims that he was the director of AATIP up to 2012.
Presumably he, or a subordinate, commissioned (or at least selected) the 39 papers (one remains secret- which strongly implies that the other 38 don't contain information that is of defense significance; i.e. the DIA isn't concerned that another nation might benefit from their contents).

However, the papers continue to be of interest to UFO "enthusiasts": Mr. Elizondo, a man then working for the US government and who believes that UFOs are alien craft, commissioned these rather esoteric papers which are then used by other UFO believers as evidence that the US government is investigating, or has undeclared knowledge of, technologies relating to UFOs.

As an example:
Spintronics has been previously investigated in US government analysis of unconventional craft in the Defense Intelligence Reference Documents produced under the Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Applications Program (AAWSAP) program (see item #24 Metallic Spintronics [20])
Content from External Source
Page 4, "Improved instrumental techniques, including isotopic analysis, applicable to the characterization of unusual materials
with potential relevance to aerospace forensics",
Nolan, G.P., Vallee, J.F., Jiang, S., Lemke, G.L. in Progress in Aerospace Sciences Vol. 128, 1 January 2022.

Actually, as the URL indicates, the reference given leads to one of the papers listed (and possibly commissioned) by the Advanced Aerospace Threat and Identification Program (AATIP), not AAWSAP. Nolan, Vallee et al. repeat this misattribution in their list of references:

20. AAWSAP Program Documents. Defense Intelligence Reference Documents 2018; Available from:
https://irp.fas.org/dia/aatip-list.pdf.
Content from External Source
I feel that the above quote from the Nolan, Vallee et al. 2022 paper, citing the AATIP-commissioned (and presumably Elizondo-related) paper on spintronics, implies that spintronics has been used, or has been informed by, the actual physical "...analysis of unconventional craft..." by US government agencies.

(Not only are Nolan, Vallee et al. relying on an AATIP-, perhaps Elizondo- linked paper to support a claim of theirs, the cited paper, PDF below, doesn't support that claim in any way).
 

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See https://www.metabunk.org/threads/37-of-38-baas-aawsap-dirds-have-now-been-released.12346/ .
I'm pretty sure these were paid out of the AAWSAP budget, URLs notwithstanding. @NorCal Dave ?

That's always been my understanding, though it was a bit confusing when the papers were released. We're a bit off topic here, but to clarify..

Not wanting to distract from the current flow of discussion, but responding to Giddierone's point,
the AATIP papers are "real" as far as I know.

Yes there were 36-38 DIRD papers produced depending on how some are categorized, but not by AATIP. ALL of the papers were produced by sub-contractors to Bigelow's BASS company, which was the prime contractor to AASWAP. BASS received ~$22 million over 2 fiscal years (FY) from the DoD via the DIA through AASWAP.

This thread discusses some of them. If you don't want to read about the ranking of UK tabloid papers, skip to post #11. Note in this thread I was referring to AASWAP and AATIP together as A/A because ATTIP was in the news along with Elizondo and Lacatski and Knapp's book had just come out reveling AASWAP:

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/pe...ments-including-other-paranormal-stuff.12370/

...and looking into something else, I found paper number 24, Metallic Spintronics, by Dr. M. Tsoi of the University of Texas at Austin (PDF below).

Yes, Tsoi appears to have written a paper on Metallic Spintronics in FY 2009:

1699480367134.png

This list is from a supposed slide from a presentation that Chris Melon had been giving. Note it says "AATIP FY09". But that's just not possible, as all of these papers were created by BASS for AASWAP. AASWAP had the money to hand out and if Lacatski is to be believed, he and or Senator Reid made up the name AATIP to hide AAWSAP in a letter trying to get AAWSAP classified as an SAP. This happened in '09, but I'd have to go look up exactly when. This slide is from the time when AASWAP was still unknown, at least publicly and Melon and Elizondo were playing up his being head of AATIP. One would think Elizondo would have known about it.

Luis Elizondo, mentioned elsewhere on this forum, claims that he was the director of AATIP up to 2012.
Presumably he, or a subordinate, commissioned (or at least selected) the 39 papers (one remains secret- which strongly implies that the other 38 don't contain information that is of defense significance; i.e. the DIA isn't concerned that another nation might benefit from their contents).
However, the papers continue to be of interest to UFO "enthusiasts": Mr. Elizondo, a man then working for the US government and who believes that UFOs are alien craft, commissioned these rather esoteric papers which are then used by other UFO believers as evidence that the US government is investigating, or has undeclared knowledge of, technologies relating to UFOs.

Elizondo very likely had nothing at all to do with the DIRD papers. As mentioned, the papers were sub-contracted out by BASS often to former Bigelow cohorts like Hal Putoff's Earth Tech company where Eric Davis worked or contracted to. Note the papers in the slide above with Earth Tech connections. Some version, that I'll have to go find, hint that Putoff's Earth Tech was in fact responsible for all of the DIRDs. So, he and Davis wrote up a few themselves and Earth Tech then contracted with people like Tsoi for other papers.

Not only would Elizondo NOT be picking or commissioning the papers, but it's also likely even Lacatski who was running AASWAP and actually paying BASS, was unaware of what the papers were about. It appears BASS picked the topics as related to the vague RFP issued by Lacastki. Not to get into in depth here, but the 36-38 DIRDs seemed more like cover for AASWAP. Did it really spend $22 million for 38 speculative papers? The papers fulfill the original RFP Lacatski wrote up, while the real point of AASWAP was UFOs and wierdshitology at SKR.

By all accounts, Elizondo had nothing to do with AAWSAP and the papers were prepared by BASS for AASWAP.

As an example:
Spintronics has been previously investigated in US government analysis of unconventional craft in the Defense Intelligence Reference Documents produced under the Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Applications Program (AAWSAP) program (see item #24 Metallic Spintronics [20]) Content from External Source

I would say that is a bit misleading, the quote, not you John. It gets it correct that AASWAP was the program in question, but it was BASS and possibly Putoff's Earth Tech that was picking the topics. The government didn't "investigate" Spintronics, so much as they paid a contractor to pay a sub-contractor to writ up 1 speculative paper about the subject. And even then, it was possibly to hide what the bulk of the money was being spent on.

Page 4, "Improved instrumental techniques, including isotopic analysis, applicable to the characterization of unusual materials
with potential relevance to aerospace forensics",
Nolan, G.P., Vallee, J.F., Jiang, S., Lemke, G.L. in Progress in Aerospace Sciences Vol. 128, 1 January 2022.

So, Nolan and Vallee are referencing one of the DIRDs in their paper? If so, they are referencing highly speculative work, that was the point of the DIRDs. They're a collection of "what IF in the future....?" musings.

Look at the title, "isotopic analysis" and "unusual materials". This sound like Nolan's obsession with the possible strange isotopes in some bits of metal that are purported to come from a crashed UFO in Ubatuba Brazin in 1957. The entire story is based on an anonymous letter written to a gossip columnist at Sao Palo newspaper. The bits of Mg in question have a troubled provenance and no providence at all. The "unusual materials" are discussed here in the latter part of the OP:

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/meta-materials-from-ufos.12995/
 
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