Ross Coulthart Shows Patch Claimed of "Reverse Engineering Program at Area 51"

deirdre said:
i don't think the binary order means anything. i think it is just random. i found a bunch of other binary patches and they all have different number layouts. i'm thinking now it is just random from the patch makers. ???

Screenshot 2023-08-16 200154.png
Click to expand...
This one says Audio out Au, which fits the mascot (headphones!) and purpose nicely.

The "Black Demon 2016" patch says Cancel AF.
 
deirdre said:
i don't think the binary order means anything. i think it is just random. i found a bunch of other binary patches and they all have different number layouts. i'm thinking now it is just random from the patch makers. ???
Click to expand...
The chance of the 11001001 *not* being a Star Trek reference is about 1/8000 when you minimise assumptions.

Boring Information Theory follows:
Anyone jumping to the "no, it's 1/2^8 = 1/256 as there are 8 bits" conclusion is heading in the right direction, but the mere choice of 8 bits as the word length required another coincidence - it could have been any length - the chances of stopping exactly after the 8th bit are slim if the string was just coming out of a nozzle that randomly squirts out binary until it randomly stops (and you know nothing about what causes it to stop). To see this 1/8000 isn't far off, a naive approximation is to pretend such a nozzle has 3 outputs, 0, 1, and stopping, and then 3^8 gives you 1/6561, but that presupposes you know its chance of stopping at each step, a correct analysis does not make that assumption.

So, as another example, had the string been 10001110101, the chance of it *not* being a Clutch reference are about one in half a million (the 0,1,stop model giving 1/177147), rather than 1/2048 for it being 11 bits.

Oh, and for reference, the UTF-8 ramblings in the image @Mendel embedded are basically just ramblings for the reason Mendel gave. The rest of the analysis was fine, just the UTF part. Presuming a string of 1s and 0s is decimal is a weird thing to do, so you wouldn't do it unless you had a reason, and no reason was given, so just don't do it.
 
FatPhil said:
Boring Information Theory follows:
Click to expand...
you haven't been using a lot of information theory here

the information value of a token depends on how frequently it is used, and given that 8 bit represent a byte, 8 bit binary numbers are among the most common ones you could find, so that's much less information than your stop-encoding implies.

Among the 8-bit numbers, those that represent printable ascii characters are more common, so the fact that it's not one of these makes it worth more than 1/256.
 
Charlie Wiser said:
Having said that, Coulthart said the uncle only worked on human tech, not NHI. This creates a logical inconsistency in the uncle's story - if that patch was for a non-human reverse engineering program, it didn't belong to the uncle because he wasn't working on that program.
Click to expand...
Billy or 'skunk, as I refer to him has too many convoluted stories to make any assumptions about what is real. However, I was chatting with @deirdre about this one and she had what I thought was at least a plausible idea that I worked with a bit:

Billy gets the patch from somewhere, maybe his uncle, maybe online, and tries to sell it multiple times. Looking at the various archived pages of offerings he hints at "reverse engineering", but more importantly in the descriptions he says "I worked there" at Area 51 for EG&G, that's where the patch came from. It's likely more people than just the buyer saw these listings.

To a dedicated UFOligist, Billy sounds like the next Bob Lazar, but with an EG&G patch to prove his story! I'm speculating, that Billy did NOT in fact work for EG&G at Area 51, but since he claimed he did in the descriptions, what if some big time UFOlogists got a hold of him around the time the patch sold? Now he's in a pickle. They want him to be the next Lazar and talk about reverse engineering UFOs, but he can't 'cause he didn't. But he also has to maintain that the patch is authentic and there may also be some serious doubt concerning the Jordan autographed stub that went with it, so here comes a new story about his uncle.

They may have tracked down who he really is. His first name appears in some of the reviews on eBay and he's living in Palmdale. Granted, the USAF Plant 42 at Edwards AFB is in Palmdale along with Lockheed's Skunkworks, Northrup-Grumman's B2 plant and lots of other defense contractors. People from all over the country and world end up there, at least for a while. But I have a possible Lockheed employee named &$%#*. It's a start. I don't know if there was link between 'skunk from eBay and Billy on Twitter/X that could have been exploited prior to his going public.
 
f3cd3404-7a02-43b6-9849-03dfaf38345d-exeter_patch.jpg

The Exeter Police Department has announced it will be offering a first-of-its-kind 2022 Exeter Police Commemorative UFO Patch during this weekend's UFO Festival.

This custom patch is the first official police patch of the Exeter Police Department to recognize the alleged UFO sighting by some Exeter police officers and a civilian on Sept. 3, 1965, which later became known as the “Incident at Exeter.”
Content from External Source
https://www.seacoastonline.com/stor...-commemorative-patch-ufo-festival/7971978001/

I wonder what Coulthart's take on this will be?
 
Mendel said:
@Charlie Wiser nice graphic!
Article:
Infographic explaining the symbols on the patch


I'm having trouble following the UTF-8 thing.
11001001 If binary, it’s the number 201. If decimal, its UTF-8 translation is a “?” in a black rhombus, indicating an output error.
Content from External Source
If decimal, the number is "11 million 1 thousand and 1", hexadecimal 0xA7DCA9, and does not correspond to a UTF-8 sequence.
Article:
U+FFFD � REPLACEMENT CHARACTER used to replace an unknown, unrecognised, or unrepresentable character

Hexadecimal FFFD = decimal 65533 = binary 11111111 11111101
Click to expand...

I've updated it re. the binary. When I checked it on a UTF-8 converter it did give that error symbol, but also gave the letter n. But... any string of 8 gives a letter plus the error symbol, which I hadn't checked before.

Area 51 patch infographic Charlie Wiser.jpg
 
Duke said:
The Exeter Police Department has announced it will be offering a first-of-its-kind 2022 Exeter Police Commemorative UFO Patch during this weekend's UFO Festival.
Content from External Source
Click to expand...


Going back to a point we're not even trying to prove anymore, these badges are a good example of how a batch of the same design does have different flaws (circled). Very subtle but that's the point - if you find all these tiny flaws on two different photos of the same patch, it's probably the same physical object.
1692416873709.png
Content from External Source
 
NorCal Dave said:
To a dedicated UFOligist, Billy sounds like the next Bob Lazar, but with an EG&G patch to prove his story! I'm speculating, that Billy did NOT in fact work for EG&G at Area 51, but since he claimed he did in the descriptions, what if some big time UFOlogists got a hold of him around the time the patch sold? Now he's in a pickle. They want him to be the next Lazar and talk about reverse engineering UFOs, but he can't 'cause he didn't. But he also has to maintain that the patch is authentic and there may also be some serious doubt concerning the Jordan autographed stub that went with it, so here comes a new story about his uncle.
Click to expand...

I would hope... really hope... that Coulthart verified Bill has a great uncle who worked at A51.
 
Charlie Wiser said:
I've updated it re. the binary. When I checked it on a UTF-8 converter it did give that error symbol, but also gave the letter n. But... any string of 8 gives a letter plus the error symbol, which I hadn't checked before.
Click to expand...
Nitpick: any binary string of 8 that starts with 1. That's because that 1 heralds a UTF-8 multi-byte sequence, but you're only providing 1 byte.
That converter looks at 11001001, sees 110 = 'n', and can't make sense of the rest.
Charlie Wiser said:
I would hope... really hope... that Coulthart verified Bill has a great uncle who worked at A51.
Click to expand...
He sounds like he took that engineering group photograph as proof.
If he had the great-uncle's name and verified with EG&G, he would've said, wouldn't he?
And how do you verify someone's related to you? Video chat and family photos?
 
Last edited:
Mendel said:
you haven't been using a lot of information theory here

the information value of a token depends on how frequently it is used, and given that 8 bit represent a byte, 8 bit binary numbers are among the most common ones you could find, so that's much less information than your stop-encoding implies.

Among the 8-bit numbers, those that represent printable ascii characters are more common, so the fact that it's not one of these makes it worth more than 1/256.
Click to expand...

8 is indeed a less unexpected length, you are right. However, how many bits do you think it would take to communicate "we're using 8 bits here"? I gave the 11-bit example for a reason.
 
FatPhil said:
8 is indeed a less unexpected length, you are right. However, how many bits do you think it would take to communicate "we're using 8 bits here"? I gave the 11-bit example for a reason.
Click to expand...
That depends on the encoding: minimally, it takes 1 bit.
 
Mendel said:
That depends on the encoding: minimally, it takes 1 bit.
Click to expand...
However, that requires assumptions. And those need to be communicated in advance. That communication adds bits.

Had the Star Trek episode have had 9 bits in its name, and the patch contained those same 9 bits, would you be arguing that it's even more unlikely to be a coincidence? I'll support you on that, it's not a trick question. 8 does have lower entropy than other numbers, you are bang on there. The problem is we only have this 8-bit example to discuss, it's hard to know why 8 bits was chosen.
 
Charlie Wiser said:
I would hope... really hope... that Coulthart verified Bill has a great uncle who worked at A51.
Click to expand...

One would hope. However, assuming Billy and 'skunk are the same person, he said repeatedly that "I worked there" in descriptions of the patch on eBay. So, the Uncle story is already a pivot from the original. And as deirdre said:

deirdre said:
how? wouldnt that be allegedly classified? like everything else this gang of UFO-money-makers put out?
Click to expand...

A real journalist should be able to verify some of this, but I have doubts about Coulthart when it comes to UFOs. He already thinks there are UFOs being reverse engineered at Area 51, something that verifies that doesn't need a lot of fact checking.

Agent K said:
Was the patch made after the February 1, 1988 Star Trek episode?
Click to expand...

Nobody knows. The claim is it was handed out in 2000. Duke's source Peter Merlin says he "remembers seeing it", but not really when. Another source on the Dreamland website indicates he has one and that it is more recent, maybe the last 10 years? But again, he's as vague and cryptic as the average UFO person.
 
Mendel said:
He sounds like he took that engineering group photograph as proof.
If he had the great-uncle's name and verified with EG&G, he would've said, wouldn't he?
And how do you verify someone's related to you? Video chat and family photos?
Click to expand...

My impression was that the photo was of the secret team, not of the uncle's team (since nobody should be caring about the uncle's team). Coulthart said the uncle was a respected employee and gave his work dates. That info must come from the nephew of course, but again I would hope Coulthart had evidence for that beyond the nephew's say-so. When I worked for the federal government, I left with a certificate of service to prove I'd worked there (to show future employers).
 
NorCal Dave said:
Nobody knows. The claim is it was handed out in 2000. Duke's source Peter Merlin says he "remembers seeing it", but not really when. Another source on the Dreamland website indicates he has one and that it is more recent, maybe the last 10 years? But again, he's as vague and cryptic as the average UFO person.
Click to expand...
I wonder if anyone has contacted the current iteration of EG&G (now AECOM) and simply asked the question of them?
 
Charlie Wiser said:
My impression was that the photo was of the secret team, not of the uncle's team (since nobody should be caring about the uncle's team).
Click to expand...
You are right about the last bit, but wrong about the first.
From your transcripts at https://threedollarkit.weebly.com/blog/coultharts-egg-shaped-ufo-from-outer-space :
He also took a smartphone image of his great uncle's EG&G Engineering Group and their insignia patch
Content from External Source
this was a young man who took an interest in the fact that his relative worked at Area 51, and one day wandered into the study and snapped a picture of this patch. And the reason why I'm sure that he's telling me the truth is because he also snapped a picture of a group of people. And without going into the details about that picture, it has more than convinced me as to his bona fides.
Content from External Source
 
Last edited:
Duke said:
I wonder if anyone has contacted the current iteration of EG&G (now AECOM) and simply asked the question of them?
Click to expand...
Article:
Meanwhile, in August, EG&G sold its government services unit--concentrating on management, engineering, scientific and operations support for government agencies--to the Washington, D.C.-based private equity firm the Carlyle Group for $250 million. That sale also included use of the EG&G name.


so a purchase order could be under Perkin-Elmer.
or the contractor agency. these patches say EG&G but sounds like they were purchased by NASA ??
so maybe Sandia or one of the AFbases??

maybe you would have a better guess than me.
1692462300642.png

Article:
Gemini astronaut Gordon Cooper still wanted to do something. "He came to NASA and proposed to them and said 'let us at least personalize something about our mission. Let's design a patch,'" said Robert Pearlman, a space historian and editor of collectSPACE.com.
 
Last edited:
deirdre said:
Article:
Meanwhile, in August, EG&G sold its government services unit--concentrating on management, engineering, scientific and operations support for government agencies--to the Washington, D.C.-based private equity firm the Carlyle Group for $250 million. That sale also included use of the EG&G name.


so a purchase order could be under Perkin-Elmer.
Click to expand...
It's changed hands, or at least names, again since this 1999 article. Fairly common, lots of purchases and mergers in the aerospace business over the past 20-30 years. Even big time airframers like McDonnell Douglas and General Dynamics, original designers/manufacturers of the F-15 and F-16 respectively, got bought out by Boeing and Lockheed and ceased to exist. And Grumman, the most prolific manufacturer of carrier based aircraft in the world for over 60 years, merged with Northrop to form Northrop-Grumman.

Are you taking about a purchase order for the patches? If so, and even if a purchase order existed, the sheer number of shops that can and have made patches would make such a search insurmountable. Shops like that are common around military bases, and they come and go. Locally I know of at least three such shops near around WPAFB over the years, plus military clothing sales on base did that kinda of work as well.

I think it's a safe bet these patches were produced in relatively small numbers, and probably locally manufactured. Keep in mind, there are no classified patches, only classified programs/missions, so the job could have been taken anywhere. Also remember unit "patches" aren't just made as patches, the logos show up on coffee mugs, baseball caps, "crummy squadron plaques," briefing slides, etc



.
 
Duke said:
Are you taking about a purchase order for the patches? If so, and even if a purchase order existed, the sheer number of shops that can
Click to expand...
I dont think we need to look for shops.

Companies have purchasing departments. I'm ASSUMING a time frame around the year 2000 (which may not be true either!). I imagine when the Carlyle Group bought EG&G they got most of their back files, but i dont know if patches would have been handled by the main administration section of EG&G..if so the purchase order might have remained with the newly named Perkin-Elmer.

Like NASA likely has the purchase order for the above patches even though they say EG&G and are signed by JR Dubay.
not sure if Dubay worked for EG&G or NASA :) ..all these subcontractors is so confusing to me!
1692463764969.png
 
note: both the Carlyle group (august 1999) and JT4 (2001)dob as JT3 at that time.. would explain why he didnt get his patch until 2000/2001 if he started working in 1997.

of course he might have also been transferred to a new project in 2000.

just saying i didnt try contacting any companies because there are too many to ask :) imo.
 
Duke said:
Are you taking about a purchase order for the patches? If so, and even if a purchase order existed, the sheer number of shops that can and have made patches would make such a search insurmountable. Shops like that are common around military bases, and they come and go. Locally I know of at least three such shops near around WPAFB over the years, plus military clothing sales on base did that kinda of work as well.
Click to expand...
So, ask around Roswell? Or Las Vegas?
 
deirdre said:
so...the "egg photo" he allegedly told his great nephew he saw on the wall of the data storage room could have been a pic of one of these? no way. and its right on the patch!!?


1692146848147.png
Click to expand...
Late to this thread... but.

I think we have the solution to the spheres seen in the drone videos.

Someone in the area has a pile of calibration spheres and a home-made trebuchet. When they see a drone they load up a sphere and fling it at the drone.

With luck they may find the sphere where it falls to earth and they can fling it at the next drone that passes over. A trebuchet would be an ideal weapon to use for this purpose. No muzzle flash, no loud bang to startle and frighten the neighbors and most Western military people don't even know what they are. They could walk right by one or see it in drone video and not recognize it for the projectile "firing" weapon it is.

According to Wikipedia during the Syrian civil war, in 2013, rebels used a trebuchet to fling explosive charges...
 
I received a photo of another of these EG&G patches - just checking what I can share about it, but I will say the "flaws" in the stitching are completely different. (There are people trying to tell me on Twitter that a machine-embroidered patch will have the same flaws on different patches, which is simply not true when it comes to things like looped stitches and the packing of stitches to create bald spots.)
 
Charlie Wiser said:
Patch from NotTelling on the Dreamland forum.
Click to expand...
Conclusion: The patch proves nothing.

Thus, the possible Star Trek reference proves nothing.

All that's left is a 4th-hand UFO story with no supporting evidence.

And it's coming from the journalist who sold us David Grusch's claims on trust.
 
Mendel said:
Conclusion: The patch proves nothing.
Click to expand...
I ought to amend this. I think we can take it that it's an EG&G patch from a team that worked at Groom Lake, probably on EW/RCS analysis.

But it doesn't prove anything related to extraterrestrial craft or alien visitors, and there's no reason for Ross Coulthart to imply it does.
 
deirdre said:
you had to make me look that up before bed? now im gonna be dreaming of Monty Python :p
1692503793709.png
Click to expand...
Historical note: There's a castle in France with a collection of medieval weaponry. It's weird to see several huge trebuchets standing on the battlements. (On a much smaller scale, my son in law built a model with my grandson, and once they got the range adjusted they could hit their target reliably, time after time. Of course they used same sized ammo: got them at the supermarket in cartons of twelve.) The real ones threw stone balls, but could also fling things like rotting animal carcasses, hornets nests, or even the heads of captured prisoners. Something like that could really demoralize the defenders, I'd think!

On the show Northern Exposure, they once built a trebuchet and flung a piano.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Mendel
Ross Coulthart
4 5 6
Replies
237
Views
21K
Mauro
Mauro
NorCal Dave
Many High-Ranking People Have Confirmed Existence of Secret UFO Programs. Who Has Already Made Similar Claims?
2
Replies
69
Views
10K
FatPhil
FatPhil
NorCal Dave
Claim: CIA Spy Planes Account for Over 1/2 of all UFO Reports in the '50s and '60s in the US
Replies
12
Views
3K
AF_Brat72
AF_Brat72
NorCal Dave
The Congressional UAP Hearings Debrief
2 3
Replies
102
Views
12K
John J.
John J.
lockedupsafe
A Brief Dunk In The Rabbit Hole
Replies
27
Views
3K
Amathia
Amathia

Latest posts

Back
Top