The Congressional UAP Hearings Debrief

[Deleted member 19405]

Snowden revealed illegal operations. Didnt turn out well for him.

And? Snowden also didn't reveal the biggest story in the history of mankind, i.e. the existence of alien contact. You can't really compare the two situations.

 

[Amathia]

That sounds like ad hominem.

This is not an ad hominem in the logical fallacy sense. An ad hominem fallacy looks like this:

Person 1 is claiming Y.

Person 1 is an idiot.

Therefore, Y is not true.

Someone is guilty of an ad hominem fallacy if they use some feature or character trait about a person as a reason to conclude that what they're saying is false.

But simply pointing out several unflattering things about a person (like the post you were responding to) isn't an ad hominem since there was no view that was determined to be false on the basis of all of the things mentioned about Parsons.

You're an asshole.

Is not an ad hominem.

You're an asshole, so your claim that special-access, alien reverse-engineering programs exist is false.

Is an ad hominem.

 

[Duke]

Does it though? I'm not too sure what information on an extra-terrestrial crash retrieval program is a threat to the security of the US, unless said Aliens are ''malevolent'' which Grusch may have claimed. He may get in trouble initially for revealing classified information but I doubt any prosecution would follow if the existence of any such program was indeed illegal which is also claimed.

This isn't like the FVEY program which Snowden exposed, those programmes were all created without breaking domestic or foreign law.

Consider if such programs exist(ed), and advanced technology recovered, we would not want adversaries to learn of that technology and of the fact we have it. Regardless of how the technology was obtained, it and its applications would still remain classified.

 

[deirdre]

But simply pointing out several unflattering things about a person (like the post you were responding to) isn't an ad hominem since there was no view they was determined to be false on the basis of all of the things mentioned about Parsons.

the context of the thread is the pdf and the role he plays in it.

 

[PublicStranger]

Consider if such programs exist(ed), and advanced technology recovered, we would not want adversaries to learn of that technology and of the fact we have it. Regardless of how the technology was obtained, it and its applications would still remain classified.

That would be valid but the claims are UFO crash retrieval programs are an international venture with multiple countries from Russia to the Vatican already having access to this technology. The Vatican since the 1930s, before the US even.

 

[cptreynolds]

That would be valid but the claims are UFO crash retrieval programs are an international venture with multiple countries from Russia to the Vatican already having access to this technology. The Vatican since the 1930s, before the US even.

Good point. Begs the side question - why is this a topic only in the US, then?

 

[PublicStranger]

Good point. Begs the side question - why is this a topic only in the US, then?

Precisely, makes the claims even more mind-boggling. By order of probability UFOs have strayed into dictatorship territory, meaning a country like North Korea probably has at least some kind of knowledge of Alien existence by now, we know how much of an eccentric Kim-Jung Un is, why has he never mentioned the topic or used recovered technology against any foreign adversary like South Korea?

The whole point being the ''apologies this is too classified to elaborate further excuse'' seems to be a rather convenient cop out.

 

[Duke]

Russian fighter jets once fired at possible extraterrestrial life forms after a pair of UFOs nearly caused World War III to break out, according to sworn testimony shared to Congress and obtained by Fox News.

The testimony was given by George Knapp, an award-winning Las Vegas-based journalist who has repeatedly reported on UFOs, now known as UAPs, and the alleged conspiracies surrounding them.

Content from External Source

https://www.jpost.com/omg/article-753288#google_vignette

Corbell is also credited later in the article with "testifying at Congress." Since we didn't see either of them testifying last week, are we to assume these two stalwarts of UFO truth gave testimony under oath in some closed hearing? Or could they have given sworn testimony in a deposition submitted to Congress to help build the pre-brief under discussion here?

Regardless of the how/when/where this testimony was allegedly given, Knapp in particular could really do no more than what Grusch has done....sworn to have been told of these things. In fact, these stories have been told for years by Russian ufologist Paul Stonehill.

And to be clear, I would not be surprised to learn the Russians have fired on UFOs because we know the US has done the so as well. Former (and first) head of Project Bluebook, Edward Ruppelt opens his book "The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects" with these paragraphs.

In the summer of 1952 a United States Air Force F-86 jet interceptor shot at a flying saucer.

This fact, like so many others that make up the full flying saucer story, has never before been told.

I know the full story about flying saucers and I know that it has never before been told because I organized and was chief of the Air Force's Project Blue Book, the special project set up to investigate and analyze unidentified flying object, or UFO, reports. (UFO is the official term that I created to replace the words "flying saucers.")

https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/17346/pg17346.html

Content from External Source

Content from External Source

 

[Duke]

That would be valid but the claims are UFO crash retrieval programs are an international venture with multiple countries from Russia to the Vatican already having access to this technology. The Vatican since the 1930s, before the US even.

If you believe this, then you've added another layer of secrecy because in the military world all nations involved in multinational, classified programs must agree to declassify such information before it is released. This is standard practice. To do otherwise would make whichever nation that released such information unilaterally untrustworthy in the eyes of international partners and probably impact what others might share later.

 

[PublicStranger]

If you believe this, then you've added another layer of secrecy because in the military world all nations involved in multinational, classified programs must agree to declassify such information before it is released. This is standard practice. To do otherwise would make whichever nation that released such information unilaterally untrustworthy in the eyes of international partners and probably impact what others might share later.

I didn't say I believed any of it, quite the opposite.

 

[NorCal Dave]

That sounds like ad hominem.

It's just straight up parts Jack Parsons life and I did say it was a bit off topic. Not wanting to continue off topic, but here is a slightly PG spoiler outlining everything in that quote. Like I said, the guy could use his own thread.

Spoiler

A bit off topic, but Jack Parsons could almost use his own thread. A literal rocket scientist who did in fact go out to the desert to perform Sex Magic of the self-stimulating variety with Hubbard in an attempt to conjure a spirit or entity or whatever in accordance with Crowly's teachings. He had a swinger's pad in SoCal, help found the JPL and eventually blew himself up making some special effects charges. Or did he? Maybe he knew too much?

John Whiteside Parsons

Content from External Source

(born Marvel Whiteside Parsons;[nb 1] October 2, 1914 – June 17, 1952) was an American rocket engineer, chemist, and Thelemite occultist. Associated with the California Institute of Technology (Caltech), Parsons was one of the principal founders of both the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) and the Aerojet Engineering Corporation.

Content from External Source

Helen went away for a period in June 1941, during which Parsons, encouraged to do so by the sexually permissive attitude of the O.T.O., began a sexual relationship with her 17-year-old sister, Sara. Upon Helen's return, Sara asserted that she was Parsons' new wife, and Parsons himself admitted that he found Sara more sexually attractive than Helen.[83] Conflicted in her feelings, Helen sought comfort in Wilfred Talbot Smith and began a relationship with him that lasted for the rest of his life; the four remained friends.[84] The two couples, along with a number of other Thelemites (some of whom with their children), moved to 1003 South Orange Grove Boulevard, an American Craftsman-style mansion.

Content from External Source

Having been a long-term heavy user of alcohol and marijuana, Parsons now habitually used cocaine, amphetamines, peyote, mescaline, and opiates as well.[90][53] He continued to have sexual relations with multiple women, including McMurtry's fiancée Claire. When Parsons paid for her to have an abortion, McMurtry was angered and their friendship broke down.[91]

Content from External Source

Some veteran Lodge members disliked Parsons' influence, concerned that it encouraged excessive sexual polyandry that was religiously detrimental, but his charismatic orations at Lodge meetings assured his popularity among the majority of followers.

Content from External Source

In December 1945, Parsons began a series of rituals based on Enochian magic during which he masturbated onto magical tablets, accompanied by Sergei Prokofiev's Second Violin Concerto. Describing this magical operation as the Babalon Working, he hoped to bring about the incarnation of Thelemite goddess Babalon onto Earth. He allowed Hubbard to take part as his "scribe", believing that he was particularly sensitive to detecting magical phenomena.[112]

Their final ritual took place in the Mojave Desert in late February 1946, during which Parsons abruptly decided that his undertaking was complete.

Content from External Source

On June 17, 1952, a day before their planned departure, Parsons received a rush order of explosives for a film set and began to work on it in his home laboratory.[150] An explosion destroyed the lower part of the building, during which Parsons sustained mortal wounds.

Content from External Source

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Parsons

the right side in my pic IS your document.

Guess that's why they look the same.

Hard to say, as the video clip is poor quality, and we only get a glimpse of the document. If it was printed straight form PDF, then it would be 177 pages unless there is more stuff like you suggested. At the 24:11 mark of the YouTube version of the hearings (link below), Burchett enters into the record statements by Knapp and Corbel along with a DIRD paper that sounds a lot like something Davis wrote for Puthoff's EarthTech and maybe BAASS/AAWSAP, so there is other stuff in the record. Maybe they got mixed together?

Here are a few screen grabs of what the NewNation guy was holding up:



I don't know, it looks kinda like what I was getting when I would copy and paste the document, but then why would someone do that? And the 177 page 70 year history of UFOs is available online. But then this is another 240 page 70 year history of UFOs?

What is funny is when I tried to track it down, all I got were reddit feeds about the 240 page secret report and that Mick West wants it!

 

[cptreynolds]

I didn't say I believed any of it, quite the opposite.

I think what was meant is that if Grusch believes it to be an international venture including Russia and the Vatican, getting the US to publish whatever's there will be a little bit more difficult than assumed initially, as the US will have to sit down and discuss that stuff with both Putin and the Pope.

 

[Duke]

I didn't say I believed any of it, quite the opposite.

Then I've given you the answer to your questions.

 

[Amathia]

Russian fighter jets once fired at possible extraterrestrial life forms after a pair of UFOs nearly caused World War III to break out, according to sworn testimony shared to Congress and obtained by Fox News.

The testimony was given by George Knapp, an award-winning Las Vegas-based journalist who has repeatedly reported on UFOs, now known as UAPs, and the alleged conspiracies surrounding them.

Content from External Source

https://www.jpost.com/omg/article-753288#google_vignette

Corbell is also credited later in the article with "testifying at Congress." Since we didn't see either of them testifying last week, are we to assume these two stalwarts of UFO truth gave testimony under oath in some closed hearing? Or could they have given sworn testimony in a deposition submitted to Congress to help build the pre-brief under discussion here?

Regardless of the how/when/where this testimony was allegedly given, Knapp in particular could really do no more than what Grusch has done....sworn to have been told of these things. In fact, these stories have been told for years by Russian ufologist Paul Stonehill.

And to be clear, I would not be surprised to learn the Russians have fired on UFOs because we know the US has done the so as well. Former (and first) head of Project Bluebook, Edward Ruppelt opens his book "The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects" with these paragraphs.

In the summer of 1952 a United States Air Force F-86 jet interceptor shot at a flying saucer.

This fact, like so many others that make up the full flying saucer story, has never before been told.

I know the full story about flying saucers and I know that it has never before been told because I organized and was chief of the Air Force's Project Blue Book, the special project set up to investigate and analyze unidentified flying object, or UFO, reports. (UFO is the official term that I created to replace the words "flying saucers.")

https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/17346/pg17346.html

Content from External Source

Content from External Source

Quick question Duke, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the US has shot at a UFO at some point if by that all we mean is that the US has shot at something it couldn't identify in the sky. The US isn't omniscient, so it stands to reason things have been in the sky which the government couldn't identify that it decided to shoot down.

But that's a different claim than the claim that it has shot down a flying saucer. Did you mean to say you wouldn't be surprised that Russia has shot at UFOS because the US has as well (in the strict unidentified flying object sense), or did you mean to endorse the claim of the link you referenced that the US has actually shot at flying saucers in the past?

 

[cptreynolds]

The US isn't omniscient, so it stands to reason things have been in the sky which the government couldn't identify that it decided to shoot down.

Actually by my count that happened three times this year.

 

[Duke]

Quick question Duke, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the US has shot at a UFO at some point if by that all we mean is that the US has shot at something it couldn't identify in the sky. The US isn't omniscient, so it stands to reason things have been in the sky which the government couldn't identify that it decided to shoot down.

But that's a different claim than the claim that it has shot down a flying saucer. Did you mean to say you wouldn't be surprised that Russia has shot at UFOS because the US has as well (in the strict unidentified flying object sense), or did you mean to endorse the claim of the link you referenced that the US has actually shot at flying saucers in the past?

If the article is accurate, Knapp claimed the Russians fired at UFOs. My point was so have we, as cited by Ruppelt. In the big picture, however, I was pointing out the level of credibility, or lack thereof, of least some of Congress' sources. They might as well bring in David Duchovny.

 

[Duke]

Actually by my count that happened three times this year.

I would comment on that, but doing so would get political and probably be deleted.

 

[deirdre]

but here is a slightly PG spoiler outlining everything in that quote.

i think you telling us about two guys masturbating with each other is enough input. i'm not clicking that spoiler

And the 177 page 70 year history of UFOs is available online. But then this is another 240 page 70 year history of UFOs?

75 year, they are both described as. Seems too much of a coincidence to me.. and the pdf data dump just starts with links.. not even a cover page so staffers would know what the certain Congressperson is asking for "Can you grab me that Corbell report"?
Obviously it wouldnt be classified so hopefully some crew member at News Nation leaks it.

all I got were reddit feeds

thats the only place i saw info too...including the twitter link i used. was posted on reddit.

 

[MonkeeSage]

Corbell is also credited later in the article with "testifying at Congress." Since we didn't see either of them testifying last week, are we to assume these two stalwarts of UFO truth gave testimony under oath in some closed hearing? Or could they have given sworn testimony in a deposition submitted to Congress to help build the pre-brief under discussion here?

I still haven't been able to find the statements from Corbell and Knapp entered into the hearing record by Rep. Burchett (which I assumed is what has been misreported as "testifying"). They are not linked from either of these:

https://oversight.house.gov/hearing...ty-public-safety-and-government-transparency/
https://docs.house.gov/Committee/Calendar/ByEvent.aspx?EventID=116282

I would love to be able to read them.

 

[MonkeeSage]

I still haven't been able to find the statements from Corbell and Knapp entered into the hearing record by Rep. Burchett (which I assumed is what has been misreported as "testifying"). They are not linked from either of these:

D. Dean Johnson pointed me in the right direction on twitter. Statements from Corbell and Knapp are linked at the bottom here:

https://www.theblackvault.com/docum...ty-public-safety-and-government-transparency/

Direct links:
https://www.theblackvault.com/docum...ads/2023/07/Knapp-Congressional-Statement.pdf
https://www.theblackvault.com/docum...s/2023/07/Corbell-Congressional-Statement.pdf

Note: these are not testimony or sworn statements under oath, they were just entered into the hearing record by Rep. Burchett.

Edit: Now that I know what to look for I was able to find higher quality uploads that allow copying the text:
https://static.foxnews.com/foxnews....rge-Knapp-Congressional-Record-Submission.pdf
https://static.foxnews.com/foxnews...._Corbell__Congressional_Record_Submission.pdf

 

[deirdre]

https://www.theblackvault.com/docum...ads/2023/07/Knapp-Congressional-Statement.pdf

Did Knapp ever accuse Reid of this before Reid died?

 

[Duke]

D. Dean Johnson pointed me in the right direction on twitter. Statements from Corbell and Knapp are linked at the bottom here:

https://www.theblackvault.com/docum...ty-public-safety-and-government-transparency/

Direct links:
https://www.theblackvault.com/docum...ads/2023/07/Knapp-Congressional-Statement.pdf
https://www.theblackvault.com/docum...s/2023/07/Corbell-Congressional-Statement.pdf

Note: these are not testimony or sworn statements under oath, they were just entered into the hearing record by Rep. Burchett.

Thanks, and that's what I suspected. Whether the information was provided under oath or not, it's reprehensible members of the US Congress would stoop to the level of using shills who make their living taking advantage of the naivete and ignorance of people to further their agenda.

 

[NorCal Dave]

75 year, they are both described as. Seems too much of a coincidence to me.. and the pdf data dump just starts with links.. not even a cover page so staffers would know what the certain Congressperson is asking for "Can you grab me that Corbell report"?
Obviously it wouldnt be classified so hopefully some crew member at News Nation leaks it.

Agreed, it seems a bit of a coincidence, but the document Amathia originally posted the link to and I used in the OP is just more confusing. Shellenberger's site seems to claim credit for it, mostly as it relates to people speaking up and then being threatened with violence. But then makes one subscribe to see it:


https://public.substack.com/p/alleged-death-threats-against-ufo

As I said, I didn't read the whole thing, but I did skim a lot of it and I didn't see any "death threats" at least not yet. And the 3 people above that are linked to "75 years of death threats" don't appear in the document that I can find. The article that the 177 page document is listed in is credited to an Andrew Mohar:



Shellenberger has been around for a number of years and has written several books.

Michael D. Shellenberger

Content from External Source

(born June 16, 1971) is an American author and former public relations professional whose writing has focused on the intersection of politics, the environment, climate change and nuclear power, as well as more recently on how he believes progressivism is linked to homelessness, drug addiction and mental illness. He is a co-founder of the Breakthrough Institute and the California Peace Coalition.[1] He is also the founder of Environmental Progress.

Content from External Source

Here are his books, not exactly UFO stuff:

The Death of Environmentalism: Global Warming in a Post-Environmental World​

Break Through: From the Death of Environmentalism to the Politics of Possibility​

An Ecomodernist Manifesto​

Apocalypse Never: Why Environmental Alarmism Hurts Us All​

San Fransicko: Why Progressives Ruin Cities​

Content from External Source

​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Shellenberger

Short story is it seems he was a left leaning environmentalist that has now gone more right. The whole UAP thing seems to be something he just got into. Regardless of his politics, as he has authored a number of books, I don't get how he trolled out this 177 page "report".

Interesting note though from the article in question, a retired Air Force guy claims he threatened people (bold by me):

What’s more, there is at least one whistleblower who claims to have issued threats to UAP witnesses. Retired U.S. Air Force Master Sergeant, Daniel Morris, reported that the National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) recruited him after he served in Air Force Intelligence.

“I would go interview people who claimed they had seen something and try to convince them they hadn’t seen something or that they were hallucinating,” Morris said. “If that didn’t work, another team would come in and give all the threats, and threaten them and their family … And they would be in charge of discrediting them, making them look foolish … Now if that didn’t work, then there was another team that put an end to that problem, one way or another.”

Content from External Source

https://public.substack.com/p/alleged-death-threats-against-ufo

From Grusch's opening statement at the hearings (bold by me):

My name is David Charles Grusch. I was an intelligence officer for 14 years, both in the US Air
Force (USAF)

In the USAF, in my National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) reservist capacity, I was a member
of the UAPTF from 2019-2021. I served in the NRO Operations Center on the director's briefing
staff, which included the coordination of the Presidential Daily Brief (PDB) and supporting
contingency operations.

Content from External Source

https://oversight.house.gov/hearing...ty-public-safety-and-government-transparency/

So, they were both USAF intelligence people at the NRO. Is Morris a source? Maybe for the threats and possible murder?

But when one follows the links about Morris, one is first taken to a story about Steven Greer's Disclosuer Project, which has a Dan Morris saying:

Dan Morris, a retired Air Force Master Sergeant, spoke emotionally about seeing and photographing three UFOs while working at a radar site in Georgia.

Content from External Source

https://www.upi.com/Archives/2001/05/10/Private-project-pushes-for-UFO-hearings/2726989467200/

The other link takes us to Morris's "statement" for the Disclosure Project. Again, this could use its own thread, but here are some tidbits including "cosmic top secret":

I had a clearance 38 levels above top secret, which is cosmic top-secret -it is the top of all of those clearances. It is for UFOs, and aliens, etc. No president has had that level, has ever been cleared for that level. Eisenhower was the closest.

One that did not exist, it was so secret, was the NRO. You couldn’t mention NRO. It is the National Reconnaissance Organization.

If you’re on that level, then there’s an organization worldwide called ACIO, that’s Alien Contact Intelligence Organization. If you pay your dues and you follow the rules, your government is allowed to benefit from that organization’s information.

Content from External Source

And we have the accusation that someone was murdered to keep UAP secrets:

There are other people who have been eliminated for what they know. One was a friend of mine, Phil Snyder, who worked out here in New Mexico building the tunnels- the biggest one that he was involved with was the Dulce underground facility.

And I know that Phil loved this country and he thought these programs were bypassing our form of government. The way it was set up, there were too many black projects going on, and none were approved by our Congress.

No Congress ever voted on any of these black projects, and he believed the American people had a right to know what they were spending their money for and what we were capable of doing. And he started talking, so they got rid of him…

Content from External Source

Just one more form Mr. Morris:

Do you know why we stopped exploding nuclear weapons? We were ordered to do it by those ETs from Orion. Orion - they came down and they told us, "Look, you can destroy yourselves, so we won’t put up with that. And if you do that, if you explode that planet, and you’ve got the capability now…" That’s when we really got their attention and they came down and they said, "Look, we won’t let you destroy your planet." So we want you to stop all nuclear testing.

Content from External Source

https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/disclosure/briefing/disclosure12.htm

Just to clarify, Shellenburger or his associates appear to have put together the document in the OP. Shellenburger's News site, Public, ran an article by an Andrew Mohar where they offered the document up to subscribers. In said article, Mr. Mohar quotes Mater Sargent Dan Morris as saying he and others made threats to people that reported UFO sightings. Sargent Morris says he had "cosmic top-secret clearance" beyond what any president has ever had and that the aliens from Orion made us stop testing nukes.

I'm going to refill my G&T now and see what else Sgt. Morris has to say.

i think you telling us about two guys masturbating with each other is enough input. i'm not clicking that spoiler

I misremembered, one guy just took notes.

 

[deirdre]

Is Morris a source?

he was 73 in 2000.. so...

Article:

But myself, I’m 73 years old

Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20070708170435/https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/disclosure/briefing/disclosure12.htm

his story is something else.

 

[LilWabbit]

And we have the accusation that someone was murdered to keep UAP secrets:

There are other people who have been eliminated for what they know. One was a friend of mine, Phil Snyder, who worked out here in New Mexico building the tunnels- the biggest one that he was involved with was the Dulce underground facility.

And I know that Phil loved this country and he thought these programs were bypassing our form of government. The way it was set up, there were too many black projects going on, and none were approved by our Congress.

No Congress ever voted on any of these black projects, and he believed the American people had a right to know what they were spending their money for and what we were capable of doing. And he started talking, so they got rid of him…

Content from External Source

Phil Schneider could indeed be the guy Grusch alludes to as having been murdered for speaking up.

Article:

Philip Schneider (April 23, 1947 - January 1996) claimed to be an ex-government geologist and structural engineer who was involved in building underground military bases around the United States (possessing a level 3 security clearance, "Rhyolite38"), and to be one of only three people to have survived a deadly battle in which 66 American and NATO "Delta Force" soldiers were killed. This battle allegedly occurred in 1979 between Grey aliens and U.S. military and NATO forces at an underground base at Dulce, NM [(c.f.: "The Dulce Wars: Underground Alien Bases & the Battle for Planet Earth" By Branton, "Underground Alien Bases" by Commander X and "Reality of the Serpent Race & The Subterranean Origin of the UFOs" by both)].

For the last two years of his life, Schneider gave over 30 lectures to a variety of audiences across the globe, concerning conspiracy theories in which he claimed to be leaking information exposing them. However, Schneider was never able or willing to prove his allegations (e.g. showing the entrance to Dulce Base). His claims received little mainstream notice, but caused quite a buzz in UFO enthusiast circles.

Schneider was found dead in his Wilsonville, Oregon apartment on January 17 1996. He had apparently been dead for several days (perhaps up to a week), and reportedly had a rubber hose wrapped three times around his neck. Tim Swartz writes that "Clackamas County Coroner's office initially attributed Philip Schneider's death to a stroke or heart attack."

Some suggest Schneider was murdered; supposedly because he was leaking information to the public, unveiling conspiracies. He in fact claimed to have avoided 13 murder attempts taken on his life during the time in which he was lecturing on conspiracy theories. He suffered multiple physical illnesses (osteoporosis, cancer, injuries). Officially, suicide is now stated as the cause of death -- which adds up to one apparent and three official causes of death, which is three too many.

Source: https://www.scribd.com/document/243595848/Philip-Schneider-Biography#

P.S. Sgt. (ret.) Dan Morris's '38 levels above top secret which is cosmic top-secret above what any president has ever had' seems to be a thing amongst ufologists since Schneider also claimed a fascinating "Rhyolite38" clearance.

P.P.S. But sincerely, R.I.P. Mr. Schneider.

 

[Mendel]

Does it though? I'm not too sure what information on an extra-terrestrial crash retrieval program is a threat to the security of the US, unless said Aliens are ''malevolent'' which Grusch may have claimed. He may get in trouble initially for revealing classified information but I doubt any prosecution would follow if the existence of any such program was indeed illegal which is also claimed.

If the program serves a dual purpose (e.g. to retrieve downed hardware of foreign nations), then parameters such as how quickly it can be deployed and what its limitations are can impact that purpose if they become known. For example, the U.S. used a civilian DSV secretly for that purpose at one point.

Secondly, see at https://www.metabunk.org/threads/house-oversight-hearing-on-uaps-july-26-2023.13049/post-295876 for an example of what a "waived" program looks like. These are not illegal, but the description of how they operate fits what Grush has discovered, and by drawing Congress's attention to it, he would already be guilty of having broken secrecy. So if that program is not illegal—which Grusch has no way to know—, publishing it gets him behind bars for sure.

Compare also:

Article:

In a ruling handed down on Wednesday, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit said the warrantless telephone dragnet that secretly collected millions of Americans’ telephone records violated the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and may well have been unconstitutional.

Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-nsa-spying-idUSKBN25T3CK

Edward Snowdon blew the whistle on that, but the U.S. still wants to arrest him on espionage charges.

 

[Mendel]

The US isn't omniscient, so it stands to reason things have been in the sky which the government couldn't identify that it decided to shoot down.

Actually by my count that happened three times this year.

They were pretty much identified as balloons, in the civilian sense of the word "identified". (Military "identified" means to also know what entity sent them.)

 

[LilWabbit]

If the program serves a dual purpose (e.g. to retrieve downed hardware of foreign nations), then parameters such as how quickly it can be deployed and what its limitations are can impact that purpose if they become known. For example, the U.S. used a civilian DSV secretly for that purpose at one point.

Whilst I do not disagree with the gist of this response, not every retrieval of foreign assets (downed or not) constitutes a DoD 'program'. However, there's always an investigation which is at least initially likely to be classified.

There are further parameters to satisfy to be made into a 'program'.

 

[Mendel]

not every retrieval of foreign assets (downed or not) constitutes a DoD 'program'.

Some do? Fine, then we agree; I never claimed that all did, such a claim would be a logical reversal of what I stated.

 

[Mendel]

75 year, they are both described as. Seems too much of a coincidence to me..

If they both start at Roswell (1947) and end in 2023, then they were both described by someone who fails at subtraction, which is a coincidence. But starting at Roswell is not.

The words (PUBLIC DOMAIN) appear in green, all caps and inside of parentheses.

This suggests that a version of the document exists with additional items where the word (CLASSIFIED) appears in red. That version would be longer.
Whether it does actually exist, we don't know.

 

[LilWabbit]

Some do?

I actually don't know if 'some do' in the US. I know that in the military establishment where I'm employed 'program' almost invariably is a multi-year enterprise concerned with the development of a new or improved capability. The seizure and utilization of foreign assets could be a sub-component of such a program, but alone wouldn't qualify as one.

 

[LilWabbit]

By the time of allegedly writing the letter to Davis in 2002, Miller had already been retired for at least 4 years, and thereby a NFE (non-federal entity). And yet his letter is using a Navy commissioned officer's crest as a letterhead to give the letter an air of 'officiality'.




As per DoD branding, licencing and trademark rules for NFEs which a former USN commander should at least be marginally aware of (bold added):

Article:

Military Service marks must not be used in ways that may imply endorsement, sponsorship or other official affiliation with NFEs.

***

Many people are unaware that these official DOD and Military Service marks are protected by law from unauthorized use. The Lanham Act, also referred to as the Trademark Act, dates back to 1946. Other trademark licensing laws and regulations, such as 10 U.S.C. 2260 and 32 CFR 507.10, exist that give the DOD, each Military Service, and other DOD Components authorization to protect, retain intellectual property licensing fees, and license their names, insignia, seals, symbols, phrases, and similar identifiers.

Consequently, when the DOD seal or Military Service insignia are used without permission, the Department(s) may take appropriate action upon notification.

Source: https://www.defense.gov/Resources/Branding-and-Trademarks/DOD-Trademark-Licensing-Guide/

Article:

Unauthorized use of DoD insignia may create the appearance of official DoD endorsement of and/or affiliation with your organization, when that is not the case.

Source: https://www.defense.gov/Portals/1/Page-Assets/trademarks/Graphical-Depiction-of-Guide-for-Website.pdf

Since retired Navy officer Miller should know better than to use an official crest as a letterhead to create a semblance of an official USG document/communication, (1) he's either been authorized to do so (highly unlikely), (2) he doesn't know any better and was just being patriotic (unlikely), or (3) the whole letter from him to Davis is either purely Davis's own handiwork, or manufactured in collaboration with Miller, whilst intentionally made to look official and weighty.

I looked further into option 3, and will explain the relevance to this thread.

As I scoured through publicly available DoD letters, official DoD letter templates, including from the Department of Navy, use the DoD seal (immediately below) instead of the Department of Navy seal (below the former):




And yet in either case it's an entirely different seal from a US Navy commissioned officer's crest shown in the quoted post. The USN commissioned officer's crest, apart from Eric Davis' attached letter allegedly from Cdr. Will Miller, is ever only seen as a cap badge on Navy officer's headgear or the like.




The foregoing demonstrates that Cdr. (N) (ret.) Miller's letter attached to the Wilson-Davis Memo is a fake document. Since both Miller and Davis are true UFO believers based on their public record, case "letterhead" proves document forgery (and thereby 'forgery' and 'deceit') can't be put past 'true belief', no matter how sincere.

 

[FatPhil]

Curious - that has 13 stars, not the 12 in the b/w image in your prior quoted material. [edit: thus opening the door to a "it's not a copy of an official thing" excuse.]

I'm not sure your 3 (authorised/ignorant/fake) cover all bases, there's also:
(4) he knew, and didn't give a monkey's as he wanted to puff up his perceived authority.

 

[LilWabbit]

Curious - that has 13 stars, not the 12 in the b/w image in your prior quoted material. [edit: thus opening the door to a "it's not a copy of an official thing" excuse.]

Sharp observation, which is actually my bad because I just took a quick equivalent from the interwebs. This is a snipping from the 'actual' letter.

I'm not sure your 3 (authorised/ignorant/fake) cover all bases, there's also:
(4) he knew, and didn't give a monkey's ass he wanted to puff up his perceived authority.

Yup, thought of that. But if "he" means Cdr. Miller, he'd be at least a little bit deceitful knowing he's unauthorized to create an official appearance for a document using offical DoD insignia whilst being a 'non-federal entity'. In the same letter to Davis he's announcing he can name lots of names and hence offering documentary evidence for lifelong NDA violation. Just doesn't add up to me. But hey, people can do silly things. No disagreement there.

 

[LilWabbit]

Curious - that has 13 stars, not the 12 in the b/w image in your prior quoted material. [edit: thus opening the door to a "it's not a copy of an official thing" excuse.]

I'm not sure your 3 (authorised/ignorant/fake) cover all bases, there's also:
(4) he knew, and didn't give a monkey's as he wanted to puff up his perceived authority.

Something interesting relating directly to this:

Article:

June 18, 2020 Interview with Commander Will Miller – See my other blogs for background.

Joe Murgia: What’s your overall opinion on the Wilson/Davis documents and the story told within them? Sound plausible from what you know?

Will Miller: It’s been awhile since I looked at a photo copy of them; my only comment is that I would be VERY surprised IF ADM Wilson actually granted an interview on the “subject” that he has tried to distance himself from ever since my & SG’s meeting in the Pentagon with him.

. . .

JM: Have you ever written a letter to Dr. Eric Davis?

WM: I have E-mailed Davis with some very mundane correspondence. I have no recollection or information on a “letter”, purportedly written to him by me.

JM: Did you ever have interest in Roswell, Holloman, MJ-12 & leaked docs, Zamora & Bentwaters? (These subjects were all mentioned in the purported letter from Commander Miller to Dr. Davis. ~Joe)

WM: All but Zamora – not familiar

JM: Are you prepared to say your letter is a fake?

WM: I have no recollection of the “letter.”

JM: What parts of your letter are problematic or possibly cut and paste.

WM: (Was not willing to discuss. ~JM)

JM: Can you elaborate on any parts of 1-4 on the 2nd page of your letter?

WM: (Was not willing to discuss. ~JM)

Source: https://www.ufojoe.net/will-miller-complete/

 

[Amathia]

Agreed, it seems a bit of a coincidence, but the document Amathia originally posted the link to and I used in the OP is just more confusing. Shellenberger's site seems to claim credit for it, mostly as it relates to people speaking up and then being threatened with violence. But then makes one subscribe to see it:


https://public.substack.com/p/alleged-death-threats-against-ufo

As I said, I didn't read the whole thing, but I did skim a lot of it and I didn't see any "death threats" at least not yet. And the 3 people above that are linked to "75 years of death threats" don't appear in the document that I can find. The article that the 177 page document is listed in is credited to an Andrew Mohar:



Shellenberger has been around for a number of years and has written several books.

Michael D. Shellenberger

Content from External Source

(born June 16, 1971) is an American author and former public relations professional whose writing has focused on the intersection of politics, the environment, climate change and nuclear power, as well as more recently on how he believes progressivism is linked to homelessness, drug addiction and mental illness. He is a co-founder of the Breakthrough Institute and the California Peace Coalition.[1] He is also the founder of Environmental Progress.

Content from External Source

Here are his books, not exactly UFO stuff:

The Death of Environmentalism: Global Warming in a Post-Environmental World​

Break Through: From the Death of Environmentalism to the Politics of Possibility​

An Ecomodernist Manifesto​

Apocalypse Never: Why Environmental Alarmism Hurts Us All​

San Fransicko: Why Progressives Ruin Cities​

Content from External Source

​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Shellenberger

Short story is it seems he was a left leaning environmentalist that has now gone more right. The whole UAP thing seems to be something he just got into. Regardless of his politics, as he has authored a number of books, I don't get how he trolled out this 177 page "report".

Interesting note though from the article in question, a retired Air Force guy claims he threatened people (bold by me):

What’s more, there is at least one whistleblower who claims to have issued threats to UAP witnesses. Retired U.S. Air Force Master Sergeant, Daniel Morris, reported that the National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) recruited him after he served in Air Force Intelligence.

“I would go interview people who claimed they had seen something and try to convince them they hadn’t seen something or that they were hallucinating,” Morris said. “If that didn’t work, another team would come in and give all the threats, and threaten them and their family … And they would be in charge of discrediting them, making them look foolish … Now if that didn’t work, then there was another team that put an end to that problem, one way or another.”

Content from External Source

https://public.substack.com/p/alleged-death-threats-against-ufo

From Grusch's opening statement at the hearings (bold by me):

My name is David Charles Grusch. I was an intelligence officer for 14 years, both in the US Air
Force (USAF)

In the USAF, in my National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) reservist capacity, I was a member
of the UAPTF from 2019-2021. I served in the NRO Operations Center on the director's briefing
staff, which included the coordination of the Presidential Daily Brief (PDB) and supporting
contingency operations.

Content from External Source

https://oversight.house.gov/hearing...ty-public-safety-and-government-transparency/

So, they were both USAF intelligence people at the NRO. Is Morris a source? Maybe for the threats and possible murder?

But when one follows the links about Morris, one is first taken to a story about Steven Greer's Disclosuer Project, which has a Dan Morris saying:

Dan Morris, a retired Air Force Master Sergeant, spoke emotionally about seeing and photographing three UFOs while working at a radar site in Georgia.

Content from External Source

https://www.upi.com/Archives/2001/05/10/Private-project-pushes-for-UFO-hearings/2726989467200/

The other link takes us to Morris's "statement" for the Disclosure Project. Again, this could use its own thread, but here are some tidbits including "cosmic top secret":

I had a clearance 38 levels above top secret, which is cosmic top-secret -it is the top of all of those clearances. It is for UFOs, and aliens, etc. No president has had that level, has ever been cleared for that level. Eisenhower was the closest.

One that did not exist, it was so secret, was the NRO. You couldn’t mention NRO. It is the National Reconnaissance Organization.

If you’re on that level, then there’s an organization worldwide called ACIO, that’s Alien Contact Intelligence Organization. If you pay your dues and you follow the rules, your government is allowed to benefit from that organization’s information.

Content from External Source

And we have the accusation that someone was murdered to keep UAP secrets:

There are other people who have been eliminated for what they know. One was a friend of mine, Phil Snyder, who worked out here in New Mexico building the tunnels- the biggest one that he was involved with was the Dulce underground facility.

And I know that Phil loved this country and he thought these programs were bypassing our form of government. The way it was set up, there were too many black projects going on, and none were approved by our Congress.

No Congress ever voted on any of these black projects, and he believed the American people had a right to know what they were spending their money for and what we were capable of doing. And he started talking, so they got rid of him…

Content from External Source

Just one more form Mr. Morris:

Do you know why we stopped exploding nuclear weapons? We were ordered to do it by those ETs from Orion. Orion - they came down and they told us, "Look, you can destroy yourselves, so we won’t put up with that. And if you do that, if you explode that planet, and you’ve got the capability now…" That’s when we really got their attention and they came down and they said, "Look, we won’t let you destroy your planet." So we want you to stop all nuclear testing.

Content from External Source

https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/disclosure/briefing/disclosure12.htm

Just to clarify, Shellenburger or his associates appear to have put together the document in the OP. Shellenburger's News site, Public, ran an article by an Andrew Mohar where they offered the document up to subscribers. In said article, Mr. Mohar quotes Mater Sargent Dan Morris as saying he and others made threats to people that reported UFO sightings. Sargent Morris says he had "cosmic top-secret clearance" beyond what any president has ever had and that the aliens from Orion made us stop testing nukes.

I'm going to refill my G&T now and see what else Sgt. Morris has to say.



I misremembered, one guy just took notes.

Shellenberger recently took up an interest in the UAP topic. He recently wrote an article making very similar claims to the claims made my Kean and Blumenthal in their Debrief and NYT articles:

https://public.substack.com/p/us-has-12-or-more-alien-space-craft

He also did an interview with Michael Shermer recently on the subject. At one point in the video Shermer asks him if any of his sources claim to have first hand experience with any of the alleged down craft and he says yes.


Source: https://youtu.be/tPHETzCHtCg

 

[GraceyDeVarse]

Especially the letter from Miller to Davis (dated 25 April 2002 -- the date is sloppily mentioned in Davis's interview notes, whilst the date is redacted in the copy of the actual letter), attached to the memo, roused my suspicions of a Mark Hoffmanesque fake document manufactured by Davis, possibly but not necessarily assisted by Miller. Cmdr Miller, according to his own words, has had an interest in UFOs from young age, reported a personal UFO sighting in Vietnam, and worked for ufologist Steven Greer's CSETI upon retirement from active duty in 1994. According to his LinkedIn page, he retired from the USN in 1998. Among other things, he claims to have touched a black piece of otherworldly metal which Russians held in their possession.

I always assumed the letter was written with\by Miller.
I refer to the last paragraph where he asks for help locating someone. I found the person he asked to locate, the spelling was slightly off, but the company existed, and still does in part, and fits in with the details he mentions. It would seem to odd to include something (fairly easily) traceable, which a researcher could easily debunk by contacting the person to be greeted with "nope never heard of him".

The website remains for the company (darling retro msfrontpage design, not updated since 2011) http://1-mark.com/ . At first I assumed the website was created just to add some legitimacy to the letter by whoever created it, as it seemed so odd to leave a really old page like that on the net, but it was a real company registered in the name of the guy he was looking for NV Business ID: NV19921039608. JOSEPH A. ZUCCHERO not Zucharro as Millers letter states.

It also seemed fitting for Miller to include something a bit random in an otherwise fairly (ahem) serious letter as I seem to recall him referring to one of his wife's recipes in another letter, although I may be mistaken.

My research led me to believe the gentleman he was looking for later sold lobsters in Maine and caused a bit of a scandal due to creating an amusement lobster claw machine which used live lobsters.


I do understand of course that the ufo game includes people adding bits of reality to otherwise ridiculous documents.

 

[LilWabbit]

I do understand of course that the ufo game includes people adding bits of reality to otherwise ridiculous documents.

According to Miller he has emailed "mundane correspondence" with Davis whilst denying writing any letters. These "bits of reality" taken from these emails could easily add credence to a fake letter.

For me the red flag is the overall contrived character of the letter as proven by a fake letterhead using a Navy officer's cap badge (Navy commissioned officer's crest) rather than official DoD/Navy letterheads. An act which by itself is also illegal. It's precisely something a military outsider would do rather than a decorated Navy commander (retired or not), needing to boost his stature.

 

[REMEMBEREDLANGUAGES]

"note: This article was published on 18 June 2016, three years before it was publicly disclosed that AATIP commisioned a study on HFGW presumably for its study of its relationship to UAP." "Note that roughly 75% of the site is encoded in custom languages only decodable by custom software, the likes of which have not been disclosed publicly."

https://forgottenlanguages-full.for...6/the-art-of-jamming-gravitational-waves.html

The encoded text on this page is taken from this paper here: https://www.semanticscholar.org/pap...aker/89c63b4fd91438d9b475111f3edef437ef50c71a

A paper that appears to have been published at least as early as 2012

Article:

Ir ause bona lobu shau ma al shurv dresle dege, al dege duvo sise giegidd kabe bri ma: dregel dege. Lubu dege, lik shelshness gruness, sise giegidd bri ma wi noge, shlot gick nushe affi nushe. Ir tremitt lobu basht essa maae ki shefhe aba tais lekh mohi dregel akte (HFGW) aba seshhle wehe ore ma kret temu vir sann. Komi haru eurd shari ki mele ecke lede: wehe haru fasu beno ki shefhe (al hute sudo stia ki shefhe dame sach GW) aba kree sise fasu beno ki tais sach GW. Lobu vaun ki libe mage ir ause bona mele bebe durs woih ditz fibe lefne af ir bebe mikroelektromekanike leen (MEMS) inda seshur ir nieu de HFGW unia sise dual ki de triu af de shelshness af inda:

Source: https://forgottenlanguages-full.forgottenlanguages.org/2016/06/the-art-of-jamming-gravitational-waves.html

In this paper we consider a totally different radiation, a radiation that is not easily absorbed: gravitational radiation. Such radiation, like gravity itself, is not absorbed by earth, water or any material substance. In particular we discuss herein means to generate and detect high-frequency gravitational waves or HFGWs, and howthey can be utilized for communication. There are two barriers to their practical utilization: they are extremely difficult to generate (a large power required to generate very weak GWs) and it is extremely difficult to detect weak GWs. We intend to demonstrate theoretically in this paper their phase-coherent generation utilizing an array of in-phase microelectromechanical systems or MEMS resonator elements in which the HFGW flux is proportional to the square of the number of elements

the 2nd source in the encoded text is this: https://www.drrobertbaker.com/docs/Aerospace HFGW Applications.pdf
published in 2010

Article:

Af de masi af lekh mohi dregel akte sann seta ki kret de arie brumitt aba arie wusi. Dregel akte abke al dame bashre gafe chelo vir achi wi nut ma sude, unko lekh mohi akte wara, ir sammitt, rohn abti dori sein ver shati mova achi, nelik reffiss (delness) akte. Multi wons HFGW essa ore ma kret fetegidd flei ki flei (vir schu, ki mil ma neid ehke) aba flei ki multi-flei, lik azse rasfiss. HFGW shooe zur gast thenn affi baker verut jeis aba mat ma de kuhe kishi koht. Wesi wara arba genr zur de noge verut de teid vir fiber sier tremne, elat huue gick mikne bieadd:

Source: https://forgottenlanguages-full.forgottenlanguages.org/2016/06/the-art-of-jamming-gravitational-waves.html

Of the applications of high-frequency gravitational waves, communication appears to be the most important and most immediate. Gravitational waves have a very low cross section for absorption by normal matter, so high-frequency waves could, in principle, carry significant information content with effectively no absorption, unlike electromagnetic (EM) waves. Multi-channel HFGW communications can be both point-to-point (for example, to deeply submerged submarines) and point-to-multipoint, like cell phones. HFGWs pass through all ordinary material things without attenuation and represent the ultimate wireless system. One could communicate directly through the Earth without the need for fiber optic cables, microwave relays, or satellite transponders.

 

[John J.]

With respect, pretty much all the content in the above post (#79, 07/10/23) can be described as pseudoscience or extraordinary and unverified claims.

I'm not sure I see any connection at all to the Congressional UAP hearings debrief.

The Robert Baker whose work is linked to appears to be a purveyor of pseudoscience,
his work includes "Rollout Theory of the Universe",
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351705985_Rollout_Theory_of_Universe
"Detection and Determination of the Variation of the Speed of Time",
http://drrobertbaker.com/docs/J M P 3-23-21.pdf and
"Evolution of Life Forms in Our Universe"
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/73bb/622ee28b905376b4f48dc571138ccdaf6153.pdf

The last is at least entertaining- until you realise that some people might take it seriously.