Ross Coulthart Shows Patch Claimed of "Reverse Engineering Program at Area 51"

[Mendel]

The point is that picking and choosing who you choose to believe

Coulthart's source and the Dreamland forum say the same thing regarding the provenience of the patch. There is no choice involved. That's what the word "uncontradicted" (that you quoted) means. (Though I use it to mean, contradicted by facts, not by speculation over the meaning of an 8-bit number.)

 

[NorCal Dave]

Historically Ross has always been a good journalist. I would like to think he vets his sources

Maybe in the past, but I think he has shown himself to be an ardent believer in various UFO conspiracies. In this tread, there is long interview with Coulthart about UFO cover ups and even includes his claim that there is a crashed UFO so big the government simply constructed a building over it to conceal it. He knows about it, but of course he can't share the details yet:

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/ross-coultharts-huge-buried-ufo.13040/

It's not that I don't. I just lack proof that it comes from that. I'm trying to move us all away from the he said, she said stuff in this field. I think there's a chance, but along with Grusch's testimony, I don't buy it as proof until it is officially confirmed.

I don't think we are just going with the "he said" that we like better, I'm not, but rather trying to work out a bit of a puzzle.

We were presented with a convoluted 2nd, 3rd or even 4th hand story from Coulthart about some guy's great uncle's co-worker seeing or working on a UFO at Area 51. The patch was presented as something given to EE&G employees that worked at Area 51 and therefore was offered as corroboration of the Great Uncle's employment there. In addition to a photo of the patch, Coulthart claimed that his source also provided photos of his great uncle's coworkers, whom Coulthart claimed to recognize, but this photo and the names were not giving out, so we only have Coulthart's word for it. All we had was the photo of the patch.

Some sleuthing showed that the exact same patch had been offered on eBay by someone calling themselves "lockheedskunk117" or 'skunk for short. On the various eBay offerings, 'skunk claimed it was from a reverse engineering group that HE WAS PART OF. It was HIS patch.

Meanwhile, someone on Twitter/X we call Billy, was claiming to be Coulthart's source with the story of snapping a secret picture of the patch that belonged to his great Uncle. As it was the same patch that was on eBay, it's highly likely that Billy and 'skunk are the same person with differing stories about the patch.

Metabunk member @Duke is also a moderator on the Dreamland forum and knowing that a lot of ex-Area51 people are part of that, he asked about the patch. The consensus was that it likely had something to do with a radar group based on the iconography. It's known that EE&G was a contractor at Area 51 and that they operated various radar installations in and around Area 51, including some captured and/or reconstructed Soviet systems that can be construed as "reverse engineering".

One relatively new member of Dreamland produced a photo of the same patch, though not the one that Coulthart and 'skunk had, along with some vague claims. Case closed? Certainly not. In my dealings with Duke here on Metabunk and in private I find him to be levelheaded and reliable. If he is also a mod on Dreamland and that forum is full of real Area 51 employees, I would think it would be hard to show up and be a posser there for very long.

Nevertheless, the person with the photo of the patch has only been on Dreamland for a short while, so he could be faking it. I even suggested, half joking, that he and Billy and 'skunk are all the same person. He has a stash of these patches and is trying to bolster their price by "leaking" the photo and story to Coulthart and maybe showing up on Dreamland claiming they are real Area 51 patches. Billy/skunk has told multiple stories about the patch and has been misleading in his selling of the Jordan autographed ticket stub, so he's not a reliable source. Something Coulthart, a supposed investigative journalist should have picked up on.

As of now, it appears likely that the patch probably had something to do with radar installations, something EE&G was known to have worked on at Area 51. Not based on one "he said", but on a number of things.

 

[Stryer]

I'll take a likely logical uncontradicted explanation in the meantime.

That makes no sense my friend.

 

[Duke]

Maybe in the past, but I think he has shown himself to be an ardent believer in various UFO conspiracies. In this tread, there is long interview with Coulthart about UFO cover ups and even includes his claim that there is a crashed UFO so big the government simply constructed a building over it to conceal it. He knows about it, but of course he can't share the details yet:

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/ross-coultharts-huge-buried-ufo.13040/

Wasn't it Coulthart who initially claimed Grusch's medical records had been leaked by the IC? That's three inaccuracies in one claim. No medical records were involved, only police records. No records were leaked, they were obtained legally through a FOIA request. The source for those records was local law enforcement, not the IC.

Not what I'd call responsible journalism.

 

[Charlie Wiser]

https://www.metabunk.org/forums/people-debunked.18/
"Bunk comes from people, and is repeated and promoted by people. Sometimes it's the people themselves that need debunking."

(In case you feel so inclined.)

I guess more to the point, it's not something that belongs in this thread. But in brief, Coulthart used one unreliable evidence-free source for his 2015 exposé on a UK parliament pedo scandal for 60 Minutes - said he'd keep us updated on the story, but never did and the story turned out to be bunk.

He gave us Jim's ET ball with zero evidence of extraordinary powers beyond Jim's story, and Garry Nolan said he had a machine that would tell us if it was alien in one month. It's over a year later and we have no further info on this "alien scout ship", and Nolan says he needs $64M to analyze it.

And on a purely personal level, he insinuated on Twitter that he knows who I am. He clearly has a specific person in mind with these details. Others have attempted to track me down or dox me (what fun) and generally I don't respond in the negative when they're wrong because there would be no benefit to me. So I'll just say that in this case, since I am 100% sure of where I live and whether I claim in my book to be a scientist, I can definitively say (though not prove to others without doxing myself) that his research is crap and/or he's trusting crappy sources. That he chose to use that research/sources in order to "scare" me into thinking he knows who I am should tell everyone all they need to know about his character and his motivations as well as whether he's "always been a good journalist".


Source: https://twitter.com/rosscoulthart/status/1694313332168396923


He will say whatever he wants to say, regardless of how firm his information is, in order to promote his agenda.

 

[NorCal Dave]

And on a purely personal level, he insinuated on Twitter that he knows who I am. He clearly has a specific person in mind with these details.

His X "tweets(?)" (what the hell do we call them now "Exs"?) has a bit of a "I know who you are and you better be careful" vibe to it. I find him to have a bit of a pompous superiority complex when talking about UFOs. Similar to Knapp and Corbel, he's on the "inside" with info us plebs don't have access to, so we need to just trust them.

If that's the case and he has been giving all kinds of top secret info and has been on Aussie TV for decades, why would he care what some blogger called Charlie was talking about? Unless of course Charlie hit a nerve.

His claim of a crashed UFO so big, the government constructed a large building over it to hide it was the kicker for me. IF this is true and he knows where it is and he wants to bust open the UFO cover up, just tells where this crashed UFO is. He wouldn't be giving up any sources because IF the story is true the sheer number of architects, engineers and construction personal involved means any number of people could have filled him in.

 

[Mendel]

Source: https://twitter.com/rosscoulthart/status/1694313332168396923

Coulthart's use of "verified as credible" instead of "verified as true" illustrates that Coulthart's notion of what verification entails is somewhat flawed—or that he's trying to mislead.

 

[Charlie Wiser]

Coulthart's use of "verified as credible" instead of "verified as true" illustrates that Coulthart's notion of what verification entails is somewhat flawed—or that he's trying to mislead.

His tweet is so dumb anyway - okay so I didn't state that specific thing, but that's because I was responding to some other thing, specifically rewording someone else's tweet so why would I include anything he wrote there?

He wasn't tagged in that thread AND had me blocked, so he had to search for (or be told about) my tweet in order to unblock me and respond to it. (He immediately reblocked me.)

@NorCal Dave

If that's the case and he has been giving all kinds of top secret info and has been on Aussie TV for decades, why would he care what some blogger called Charlie was talking about? Unless of course Charlie hit a nerve.

The nerve I hit was last year when I demolished his UFO TV special (Jim's ball etc) and I have indeed sniped at him since then too. And I agree with you, he has a pompous air - he's suddenly famous in (one tiny part of) the US and holding all the secrets. He loves it.

 

[Mendel]

he's suddenly famous in (one tiny part of) the US and holding all the secrets.

He hasn't made Grusch's DPSR cleared statement(s) available.
I suspect he's covering up how much Grusch's narrative evolved since then.

 

[Charlie Wiser]

He hasn't made Grusch's DPSR cleared statement(s) available.
I suspect he's covering up how much Grusch's narrative evolved since then.

And I think that's often the problem with people who claim they know more and promise to reveal it one day but never do - they come to realize that what they could reveal is either rather pathetic or has since been refuted with contradictory evidence.

Anyway it seems that the Area 51 reverse engineering patch has died a quick death just like his other stories - Jim's ball, the Aussie outback close encounter with a flashlight (he interviewed and "verified" the witness) and the building-over-a-UFO. Moving on!

 

[Tezcatlipoca]

One note I love to make with Coulthart, outside of his other issued reporting, is the fact he's willingly and knowingly participated in media manipulation as part of a perception & reputation management effort. That alone is a bit of an ironic issue, not even touching on what the effort was for.

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...ecret-report-into-war-allegations-court-hears

 

[Mendel]

One note I love to make with Coulthart, outside of his other issued reporting, is the fact he's willingly and knowingly participated in media manipulation as part of a perception & reputation management effort. That alone is a bit of an ironic issue, not even touching on what the effort was for.

Short version:

Article:

Coulthart was last seen being commissioned by Seven Network commercial director Bruce McWilliam to investigate war crimes allegations against Ben Roberts-Smith. He subsequently worked as part of the soldier's spin team, trying to convince media figures that BRS was squeaky clean. In June, the Federal Court found Roberts-Smith was a war criminal who killed unarmed civilians in Afghanistan, a judgment he is appealing.

Source: https://www.smh.com.au/cbd/ben-roberts-smith-backer-ross-coulthart-now-leading-ufo-truther-20230824-p5dz82.html

 

[Charlie Wiser]

One note I love to make with Coulthart, outside of his other issued reporting, is the fact he's willingly and knowingly participated in media manipulation as part of a perception & reputation management effort. That alone is a bit of an ironic issue, not even touching on what the effort was for.

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...ecret-report-into-war-allegations-court-hears

Yeah I don't object to someone taking a job to pay the bills but his decision to do this does indicate something about his character - as well as leaving a very bad taste in the mouth.

 

[knobby]

Yeah I don't object to someone taking a job to pay the bills but his decision to do this does indicate something about his character - as well as leaving a very bad taste in the mouth.

I looked into that event and found a troubling sign. It was reported that Coulthart had contacted some journalists and told them he had a witness who would support his story which would be put out soon. The witness and the story never appeared and as we know from the court case, Coulthart was wrong. Sounds very much like his UFO playbook - talk up secret witnesses but never provide any evidence.

Coulthart told Nine's journalists he had found a witness who contradicted their version of events and he was putting together "a story" of his own, the court was told.

https://www.news.com.au/technology/...h/news-story/2232be0ea52995dcfc37798db6f9a4c9

 

[Mendel]

It was reported that Coulthart had contacted some journalists and told them he had a witness who would support his story which would be put out soon.

Exactly (highlight mine):

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...ecret-report-into-war-allegations-court-hears

BRS did file a witness list that included 19 witnesses for "justification" (the public docket is at https://www.fedcourt.gov.au/services/access-to-files-and-transcripts/online-files/ben-roberts-smith ), maybe Coulthart "verified" these for "credibility"?

Article:

One of the key murder allegations Nine made about Ben Roberts-Smith was that on a mission to Chinartu in 2012, he ordered an Afghan soldier, called Person 12, to shoot a man who was being questioned.

That allegation was found to be substantially true.

During evidence, Mr Roberts-Smith's witnesses suggested Person 12 could not have been present on that mission because he had earlier shot a dog and been stood down from the team.

But under questioning, several witnesses — including one codenamed Person 35 — admitted he was wrong about who shot the dog.

Justice Besanko's judgement found Mr Roberts-Smith had made the story up with Person 35, who repeated the "deliberate lie" in court.

"The applicant and Person 35 colluded to put forward a false story that Person 12 had been removed or stood down following a shooting incident on 31 July 2012," the judgement reads.

Source: https://amp.abc.net.au/article/102442100

So perhaps Coulthart was deceived about BRS's innocence, which would exhonorate his character; but would still suggest he's somewhat gullible.

 

[knobby]

So perhaps Coulthart was deceived about RBS's innocence, which would exhonorate his character; but would still suggest he's somewhat gullible.

Between getting the BRS story wrong and getting multiple facts wrong on the Grusch police report, calling him gullible is generous. For his UFO reporting where he declines to share evidence, we can only rely on his good judgement which has been found to be lacking.

 

[Charlie Wiser]

Between getting the BRS story wrong and getting multiple facts wrong on the Grusch police report, calling him gullible is generous. For his UFO reporting where he declines to share evidence, we can only rely on his good judgement which has been found to be lacking.

Someone please ask him what's his evidence for me being a scientist/author living in South Yarra. I'd actually love to know how he came to that conclusion. Could prove informative about the kind of sources he trusts.

 

[Mendel]

https://www.metabunk.org/forums/people-debunked.18/
"Bunk comes from people, and is repeated and promoted by people. Sometimes it's the people themselves that need debunking."

I made a topic on that subforum, at https://www.metabunk.org/threads/ross-coulthart.13159/ , so we can find this later. It has most of the relevant posts from this thread quoted.

 

[Charlie Wiser]

UPDATE: Bill has come forward to the Daily Mail - his name is Eric Taber and Gruncle's name is Sam Urquhart.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...gg-shaped-UFO-1980s-whistleblower-claims.html

Taber describes Urquhart's job as radar cross-section testing, which is not something Coulthart reported on back in August, so Taber presumably didn't tell him at the time. Whether or not Taber knew this before the patch was analyzed here and by Peter Merlin... who knows.

"He was head of security for his engineering group, and a data configuration specialist. His group did radar cross-section testing."

 

[deirdre]

Article link.

interesting interview

"we wouldn't want out enemies to know everything that we've got" [so i'll just spill the beans to coulthart and the Dail Mail ]

 

[NorCal Dave]

UPDATE: Bill has come forward to the Daily Mail - his name is Eric Taber and Gruncle's name is Sam Urquhart.

Just following up a bit more from the article.

Taber did go to AARO with this in May '23 as was claimed:

Taber testified in May to the Pentagon's UFO investigation unit, the All-domain Anomaly Resolution Office (AARO), who are collecting accounts of alleged government possession of non-human craft.

His story has now been documented by the Pentagon's UFO investigation office AARO, after Taber was interviewed by staff in May.

A memo of his account, along with other reports and witness statements, is due to be compiled and sent to Congress next year.

Taber said the AARO staffers were 'professional' and 'non-threatening', adding: 'I was surprised at how interested they were.'

Taber said he decided to come forward to push for limited disclosure of what he believes is the truth about non-human craft in the government's possession.

The Mail does point out that it's 2nd-3rd hand information from a deceased person:

The claim – though an unverified story from a now-deceased witness – is part of a long history of rumors about potential extraterrestrial craft or futuristic spaceships stored at the Nevada desert airbase near Groom Lake, north of Las Vegas.

The claim is that this guy's GrUncle worked at Area 51 for EG&G as a security guy for a radar group between '97 and '14:

Taber told DailyMail.com. 'He told me he worked at Area 51 from 1997 until 2014.'

'He was head of security for his engineering group, and a data configuration specialist. His group did radar cross-section testing.

That sounds reasonable. What I don't get, is that while there, other EG&G employees shared a LOT of information with him from a completely different group:

'He said, 'When I first got there in 1997, I had a personal conversation with a senior EG&G engineer whose group was tasked with trying to reverse-engineer an object that was brought there by some CIA people in the 1980s.'

'It was supposedly just found in a remote desert location fully intact.

'The senior EG&G engineer described to my great uncle that it was egg-shaped, about the size of an SUV, smooth and seamless, metallic-looking, silverish gray in color, with no control surfaces, no flaps, no inlet, and no exhaust, and no writing or symbols on the outside.

'These are the best and brightest engineers you can think of. They tried to no avail to figure out what the power source was, how to activate it, and how it works. They tried to induce electricity to it.

'X-rays couldn't penetrate it; it showed up on X-ray as a solid object. They tried to open it and penetrate its hull; they couldn't.

'They said that they were able to take some very small samples of the material. And I'm not an expert in chemistry, but I guess from the isotope ratio or the mixture of elements, they concluded it was not made on Earth.'

Would EG&G guys reverse engineering a UFO tell a security person from a radar group all this stuff? And note the "isotope ratio or the mixture of elements" claim. Sounds like Art's Parts and Ubatuba.

And somehow at a latter date perhaps, his GrUncle was informed that the craft was taken away:

Taber said Urquhart told him eventually the craft was shipped to another base, possibly White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico, and that was the last the engineers heard about it.

In addition, we have GrUncle Sam seeing a photo of the exact same craft that was described to him, pinned to the wall for all to see:

'My great uncle would collect radar data, and bring it into secure vaults to catalog and store it,' Taber said. 'He was in one of these secure data vault storage rooms in the main control building, nicknamed the Taj Mahal, when on the wall he saw an up-close crystal-clear color photograph of the exact same object that the senior engineer had discussed.'

Just seems like EG&G's security protocol was a bit lax.

Lastly, Taber throws in Bob Lazar:

Notorious former Area 51 worker Bob Lazar has claimed since his first interview in 1989 that he worked on an alien flying saucer reverse engineering program at Groom Lake – though many elements of his story have now been debunked.

Taber said his great uncle told him he knew Lazar worked at the base, but that much of his story was fabricated.

'He was only there for a few months,' Taber said. 'He states there was a site called S-4 at the base of the Papoose Mountains with nine hangar sections built into the side of the mountain housing nine flying saucers. My great uncle said it's bogus. The only thing Papoose had was some radio tower equipment. That was his take on it.'

I don't know. Despite what Knapp and Corbin continue to claim, almost nothing about Lazar's story has ever checked out. I suppose there is always the outside possibility that he was a low-level tech for EG&G like he was at Los Alamos, but it sounds like trying to weave Lazar into the story because it involves Area 51.

The article also includes The Davis Memo:

Physicist and intelligence official Dr. Eric Davis allegedly met with then-deputy director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, Vice Admiral Thomas Wilson, in the parking lot of an EG&G site in Las Vegas in October 2002, and wrote notes of what Wilson told him.

According to the notes, the Vice Admiral told Davis that in the early 2000s he uncovered – but was denied access to – a secret program run by a defense contractor that retrieved and attempted to reverse engineer UFOs.

The bombshell, controversial documents claim Wilson found discrepancies in budgets that led him to the program run by 'an aerospace technology contractor – one of the top ones in [the] US'.

Notes allegedly written by Davis documenting the conversation were leaked from the estate of late astronaut Edgar Mitchell in 2018.

Davis has declined to publicly confirm their authenticity, though his friend and ex-senior Pentagon official Christopher Mellon wrote on his blog last year that Davis is in fact the author.

Because, why not?

 

[SuppaCoup]

There's a few details in these statements that puzzle me:

They tried to open it and penetrate its hull; they couldn't.

An invulnerable material that resisted YEARS of efforts to get past it?
and yet:

They said that they were able to take some very small samples of the material.

So it's literally impossible to saw into this thing and figure out how it works, but they could break part of the invulnerable craft off for testing? Huh?
Surely no material could resist a plasma cutter?

 

[Charlie Wiser]

So it's literally impossible to saw into this thing and figure out how it works, but they could break part of the invulnerable craft off for testing? Huh?
Surely no material could resist a plasma cutter?

They probably scraped the surface for metal particles using a flat-head screwdriver.

 

[Charlie Wiser]

I wrote a Twitter thread about the remaining puzzling aspects of this story. Summarizing my points here:

It's not clear when Taber discovered the patch was from an EG&G radar cross section analysis group, but Coulthart apparently didn't know. It would seem Taber learned this after reading the "debunks"? As NorCal Dave points out, this is verification Gruncle worked on a completely different program from the one working on the egg, so why was he told anything about it?

Taber does not explain some previous odd things he said and did - such as advertising the patch on eBay as being from a UFO reverse engineering program in Area 51, and even claiming to have worked on that program. These ads were after Gruncle died in August 2022 (according to the article).

Taber tweeted in August 2023 that he wasn't ready to share the AARO memo because it had names in it. The Daily Mail published it, and it has no names in it. (Note: they only published 2 of 3 pages, and did not include a signed page which Taber claims exists.) This was his tweet (account now deleted), from the account verified by Coulthart to be his source Taber (then called Bill):

Taber's story about sneaking a photo of the patch while Gruncle slept, and that this was the photo he sent to Coulthart, is verifiably false (since it comes from a series of 5 photos, and also since other photos exist taken in a different location in his various ebay listings from around April 2023) and he hasn't addressed that.

Coulthart tweeted out the Daily Mail story - it remains to be seen if he'll address these discrepancies and the unreliability of Taber as a witness, or acknowledge the analysis done by Metabunk and Peter Merlin on the patch:

Source: https://twitter.com/rosscoulthart/status/1734305088183947536

 

[Mendel]

That sounds reasonable. What I don't get, is that while there, other EG&G employees shared a LOT of information with him from a completely different group:

'He said, 'When I first got there in 1997, I had a personal conversation with a senior EG&G engineer whose group was tasked with trying to reverse-engineer an object that was brought there by some CIA people in the 1980s.'

'It was supposedly just found in a remote desert location fully intact.

'The senior EG&G engineer described to my great uncle that it was egg-shaped, about the size of an SUV, smooth and seamless, metallic-looking, silverish gray in color, with no control surfaces, no flaps, no inlet, and no exhaust, and no writing or symbols on the outside.

'These are the best and brightest engineers you can think of. They tried to no avail to figure out what the power source was, how to activate it, and how it works. They tried to induce electricity to it.

'X-rays couldn't penetrate it; it showed up on X-ray as a solid object. They tried to open it and penetrate its hull; they couldn't.

'They said that they were able to take some very small samples of the material. And I'm not an expert in chemistry, but I guess from the isotope ratio or the mixture of elements, they concluded it was not made on Earth.'

Would EG&G guys reverse engineering a UFO tell a security person from a radar group all this stuff? And note the "isotope ratio or the mixture of elements" claim. Sounds like Art's Parts and Ubatuba.

And somehow at a latter date perhaps, his GrUncle was informed that the craft was taken away:

Taber said Urquhart told him eventually the craft was shipped to another base, possibly White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico, and that was the last the engineers heard about it.

In addition, we have GrUncle Sam seeing a photo of the exact same craft that was described to him, pinned to the wall for all to see:

'My great uncle would collect radar data, and bring it into secure vaults to catalog and store it,' Taber said. 'He was in one of these secure data vault storage rooms in the main control building, nicknamed the Taj Mahal, when on the wall he saw an up-close crystal-clear color photograph of the exact same object that the senior engineer had discussed.'

Just seems like EG&G's security protocol was a bit lax.

This would all make sense with a slightly different timeline, and a prank.
The photo would look something like this (this was an actual photo up on someone's wall):

"UFO" at Helendale RCS facility
View attachment 62309

Except maybe it was a different, more egg-shaped, model on the picture Sam Urquhart saw?

So Sam Urquhart sees this photo. As he's a security and data specialist, he maybe does not know at this point that these mockup shapes exist; maybe he thinks what they're testing there is radar cross-sections of actual jets, helicopters, etc. So maybe he asks this senior guy from the other group about it over a beer. And that guy realizes here's a great opportunity for a harmless prank. Note that almost everything that what Urqhart claims he was told is true of a RCS mockup: "egg-shaped, about the size of an SUV, smooth and seamless, metallic-looking, silverish gray in color, with no control surfaces, no flaps, no inlet, and no exhaust, and no writing or symbols on the outside" and "X-rays couldn't penetrate it; it showed up on X-ray as a solid object. They tried to open it and penetrate its hull; they couldn't" and obviously there's no power source either.

The embellishments would be that it was "found at a remote location", the CIA involvement (would the CIA even be the right agency?), and of course the extraterrestrial material.

Then maybe the object was shipped to White Sands, so Sam Urquhart never did see the actual object, which would've revealed the prank. And since this is 3rd hand hearsay, we can't simply ask that engineer about it.

Do I have proof that that's what happened? No, I don't.
But I believe my version of the story is more likely than the story of an extraterrestrial craft; it has less contradictions in it, and doesn't break security or physical laws.

 

[FatPhil]

They probably scraped the surface for metal particles using a flat-head screwdriver.
View attachment 64527

Ah, but that wasn't for doing materials testing, that was collecting DNA.

 

[NorCal Dave]

Note that almost everything that what Urqhart claims he was told is true of a RCS mockup: "egg-shaped, about the size of an SUV, smooth and seamless, metallic-looking, silverish gray in color, with no control surfaces, no flaps, no inlet, and no exhaust, and no writing or symbols on the outside" and "X-rays couldn't penetrate it; it showed up on X-ray as a solid object. They tried to open it and penetrate its hull; they couldn't" and obviously there's no power source either.

The embellishments would be that it was "found at a remote location", the CIA involvement (would the CIA even be the right agency?), and of course the extraterrestrial material.

Then maybe the object was shipped to White Sands, so Sam Urquhart never did see the actual object, which would've revealed the prank. And since this is 3rd hand hearsay, we can't simply ask that engineer about it.

Yes, that makes more sense, what he describes is almost what's on the patch. Just playing along with you here, but if Urqhart is a security guy for a radar testing group, I gotta think he knows what a radar target looks like, right? He's not going to see a photo of one and then fall for a UFO prank about it. Did GrUncle Sam describe a radar target to Taber as part of what he did, and Taber twisted it?

Supposed recreation of the UFO from the article in the Mail:

A rendering of the metallic egg-shaped UFO is seen. 'X-rays couldn't penetrate it; it showed up on X-ray as a solid object. They tried to open it and penetrate its hull; they couldn't,' Taber said

An actual radar target from earlier in this thread:

https://www.lazygranch.com/a51misc1.html#calibrator

Hmmmm...

We know that in trying to sell the patch, Taber told a different story claiming the patch was his and he had worked at Area 51 (bold by me):

Area 51 Groom Lake EG&G; Engineering UFO Military Super Rare Patch :
$900000.00
Do you want to own the ultimate Area 51 item? Then look no further!
This patch was given to the members of a small EG&G engineering group inside Area 51 in the year 2000. I was part of that group. 100% original and authentic. I have never seen this patch offered anywhere else before. Excellent condition. Been stored inside a plastic sleeve.
MAKE YOUR BEST OFFER! Keep in mind that I will not let this go for nothing. This isn't some reproduction. It was specifically designed and handed out to engineers INSIDE Area 51. Obviously I'm not really asking $900,000. I just wanted it to be seen more. Don't hesitate if you have questions.
UPS shipping fully insured and signature required is included with your purchase. Shipping within U.S only. No returns.
I have 100% positive response. Buy with complete confidence.

https://web.archive.org/web/2023081...-Military-Super-Rare-Patch-_185790380709.html

And other versions that include the "reverse engineering" claim that he was part of (bold by me):

This patch was handed out to the members of my small EG&G reverse engineering group INSIDE Area 51 in 2000. 100%original and authentic, and was actually inside Area 51 at one time.
This is the rarest, most amazing Area 51 item ever offered. Own a piece of history. Patch has been stored inside a plastic sleeve and is in excellent condition. This is the only one I have (I don't have multiples).
I will also include a rare challenge coin with your purchase.
SEND YOUR BEST OFFERUPS shipping fully insured and signature required is included with your purchase. Shipping within U.S only. No returns.
I have 100% positive response. Buy with complete confidence.

https://soviet-awards.com/vintage/A...Group-Patch-Coin-Ultra-Rare_185782594127.html

Other times he does hint that it was a family members patch:

This patch was specifically designed, produced, and handed out to the members of a small EG&G reverse engineering group INSIDE Area 51 in the year 2000. Belonged to a family member, and given to me.
100% original and authentic, NOT a reproduction or novelty patch.
Been stored inside of a plastic sleeve and is in excellent condition. I have never seen this offered anywhere else before. It's the only one that I have (I don't have multiples).
MAKE YOUR BEST OFFER
UPS shipping fully insured and signature required is included with your purchase. Shipping within U.S only. No returns.
I have 100% positive response. Buy with complete confidence.

https://soviet-awards.com/vintage/A...ring-Group-Ultra-Rare-Patch_185793097822.html

There was at least one offer with the Jordan singed stub (bold by me):

This patch was specifically designed, produced, and handed out to the members of a small EG&G reverse engineering group INSIDE Area 51 in the year 2000.Given to me by a family member who worked at Area 51 for 17 years. 100% original and authentic (not some reproduction patch). Was actually INSIDE Area 51 at one time.I've never seen this patch offered anywhere else before. Been stored inside of a plastic sleeve and is in excellent condition. If you want to own the ultimate Area 51 item, then look no further!Michael jordan autograph is included. Signed on an original 1992 Chicago Bulls ticket stub. No COA but he signed it for me in person.UPS shipping fully insured and signature required is included with your purchase. Shipping within U.S only. No returns.I have 100% positive Ebay feedback. Buy with complete confidence.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/area-51-groom-lake-eg-reverse-4619148855

And that the original claim is that the photo given to Coulthart may have been a clandestine one, not from an eBay listing:

We know that @deirdre tracked down the signed ticket stub that was sold with the patch that Taber claimed was signed in front of him, even though there is a record of him buying it.

The fact that the patch was just part of a lot that he sold is left out of the Mail story:

Taber admitted he sold his great uncle's patch for $600 on eBay in March when he was strapped for cash – a move he now regrets.

Taber's motivations are clear:

'Disclosure has to be done very carefully. We don't want our enemies to know everything about what we've got. But I do believe wholeheartedly that humanity deserves to know the truth, if we have recovered these non-human objects or craft, which 100% I believe we have.'

Now if we look again at GrUncle Sam's story it starts when he arrives at Area 51:

'He said, 'When I first got there in 1997, I had a personal conversation with a senior EG&G engineer....

Upon arriving, he's being told secrets unrelated to his tasks. This sounds very familiar:

Lazar has claimed that during his joining the program, he read briefing documents describing the historical involvement of Earth for the past 10,000 years with extraterrestrial beings described as grey aliens from a planet orbiting the twin binary star system Zeta Reticuli.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Lazar

Upon arriving at Area 51 to work for EG&G, Lazar was also told all kinds of secrets unrelated to his task. Note that Taber weaves Lazar into his GrUncle's claims:

Taber said his great uncle told him he knew Lazar worked at the base, but that much of his story was fabricated.

EDIT: Of course GrUncle Sam "knew" Lazar worked at the base, everybody did. Sam started in '97 and Lazar had gone public with his claims in '89. Since none of Lazar's story has ever held up, why say he was there? What's the point?

The claim is that GrUncle Sam worked for EG&G at Area 51 as a security guy for a radar group. A perfectly reasonable claim, but one that can be verified. Meaning it's hard to have a story where GrUncle Sam is reverse engineering UFOs, it's not what he or his group did. But, what everybody in the disclosure world wants to hear is that EG&G was reverse engineering UFOs at Area 51. So, a Lazaresque narrative is overlayed on legit story.

In the end, it's not much different from what Coulthart started with, a 3rd hand story from a somewhat unreliable witness who wants to help achieve disclosure of something he already believes.

 

[Eburacum]

Concerning the strange shapes on the patch;

Note that the lower left-hand side of the patch shows a spherical ball, plus a series of strangely shaped pylons: it may show a ball-shaped radar cross-section test article, and the pylons used by EG&G to hoist them aloft.

Here is a picture of some testing by EG&G Inc, (Edgerton, Germeshausen, and Grier, Inc) in the 1960s, associated with the OXCART stealth aircraft. I suspect that the shape of the pylons was optimised to reflect radar away from the receiver.

 

[Duke]

Concerning the strange shapes on the patch;

Note that the lower left-hand side of the patch shows a spherical ball, plus a series of strangely shaped pylons: it may show a ball-shaped radar cross-section test article, and the pylons used by EG&G to hoist them aloft.

Here is a picture of some testing by EG&G Inc, (Edgerton, Germeshausen, and Grier, Inc) in the 1960s, associated with the OXCART stealth aircraft.

I've been to Northrop's (formerly classified) RCS facility at Tejon Ranch. Here's an unclassified photo taken when Northrop and National Geographic cooperated to make a documentary to RCS test a full size replica of the WW2 German Ho 229 flying wing fighter. The pylon shown is similar to pylons I saw when classified RCS testing was being undertaken back in the day.

For those interested, here is that documentary. Not posted so much in support of this specific patch thread topic, but rather for background information to show what RCS testing is and how it's conducted. Very well done.

Source: https://youtu.be/2gZFNp5MgJc?si=hLmSIc0Qmf0yQB7w

 

[FatPhil]

Concerning the strange shapes on the patch;

Note that the lower left-hand side of the patch shows a spherical ball, plus a series of strangely shaped pylons: it may show a ball-shaped radar cross-section test article, and the pylons used by EG&G to hoist them aloft.

Are you sure the symmetrical triplets of humps aren't just a representation of radar side lobes?

 

[Mendel]

Yes, that makes more sense, what he describes is almost what's on the patch. Just playing along with you here, but if Urqhart is a security guy for a radar testing group, I gotta think he knows what a radar target looks like, right? He's not going to see a photo of one and then fall for a UFO prank about it.

Radar targets come in different shapes, depending on what is being researched. I would not be surprised if all Urqhart could identify were the targets his own group used.

But obviously the second-hand nature of the testimony does not rule out that Sam Urqhart could have pranked his nephew.

 

[Eburacum]

Are you sure the symmetrical triplets of humps aren't just a representation of radar side lobes?

Quite possibly, although sidelobes don't quite look like that. Perhaps they represent both at once.

 

[AllTheQuestionsToday]

But I believe my version of the story is more likely than the story of an extraterrestrial craft; it has less contradictions in it, and doesn't break security or physical laws.

Just a question about your use of the word security here-- what do you mean? My initial kneejerk brain response was "Do skeptics evaluate things in a different way if access to that material may violate some law somewhere?"

Which seems like a ludicrous idea on the surface, so I assume not. Who cares about the legality of evidence?

 

[Mendel]

Just a question about your use of the word security here-- what do you mean? My initial kneejerk brain response was "Do skeptics evaluate things in a different way if access to that material may violate some law somewhere?"

Which seems like a ludicrous idea on the surface, so I assume not. Who cares about the legality of evidence?

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here.

What we have here is Eric Taber's story as told to the daily mail, and my hypothetical story as set forth in post #425. Eric's story involves a senior EG&G engineer breaking confidentiality to a junior engineer, while mine involves a senior engineer pranking a junior engineer.

Which do you suppose is more likely, and why?

 

[Charlie Wiser]

The embellishments would be that it was "found at a remote location", the CIA involvement (would the CIA even be the right agency?), and of course the extraterrestrial material.

Regarding the CIA connection, I've found a 6th version of the ebay ad and in this one the CIA is mentioned. A Redditor did a reverse image search on Pinterest, leading to a ebay listing (the link to the listing is dead now but the pinterest search result is here):
https://www.pinterest.com.au/pin/91...af7fdc15e97863c7&sender_id=381258062113014348

Pinterest does not include dates so I don't know if this was part of the original set of multiple listings that Taber made, or if this was someone onselling the patch later. If we assume all 6 of these listings (found so far) were Taber's variations in trying to sell the patch - clearly he was having trouble as his asking prices were outrageous, and the final sale price of $550 was probably mostly for the MJ signature - it looks like he tried a few different keywords to attract interest: CIA, UFO, reverse engineering, Area 51, EG&G.

And not forgetting:

It does rather look like he pieced together a story from various bits of info, including perhaps whatever Gruncle may have told him.

 

[Charlie Wiser]

Ah, but that wasn't for doing materials testing, that was collecting DNA.

In the case of Jim's ball, which is what Coulthart is scraping here, it was to get metal scrapings to send to immunologist(!!?) Garry Nolan. I imagine even Coulthart doesn't think alien DNA would be hanging around on Jim's ball after 40 years. Jane Fonda's DNA, perhaps. (She has touched Jim's ball.)

 

[AllTheQuestionsToday]

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here.

What we have here is Eric Taber's story as told to the daily mail, and my hypothetical story as set forth in post #425. Eric's story involves a senior EG&G engineer breaking confidentiality to a junior engineer, while mine involves a senior engineer pranking a junior engineer.

Which do you suppose is more likely, and why?

That's not what I'm after, I'm curious about the word choice of security ... and then laws there.

Do things like national security, classification, or other factors like that have any value or merit in the realm of skepticism or debunking or science?

I assume the logical/fair answer is "to hell with the state" in regards to either the skeptic/debunker OR the believer side. Science and/or objective reality outrank "law".

That's all I am asking after. You're a very precise person in your writing, so that explicit usage of "security" in a context with "law" leapt right out.

 

[NorCal Dave]

I assume the logical/fair answer is "to hell with the state" in regards to either the skeptic/debunker OR the believer side. Science and/or objective reality outrank "law".

Just to be clear, I am NOT answering for Mendel, just answering in general. I think most of us assume there is a level of security and classification for a variety of programs and reasons in government. I personally would not advocate exposing all the high-tech capabilities of the US just to see if a UFO was captured.

In relation to the story of Uncle Sam and the EG&G engineers, this is something that come up often in UFOlogy. My understanding is that Top Secret programs like Uncle Sam's radar program is highly compartmentalized from the other Top Secret programs. One would think especially a program that is reverse engineering a UFO. If so, why would Uncle Sam have been told so many details about a Top Secret program he was not involved in right upon starting his employment at Area 51.

It would appear that the members of the highly classified reverse engineering program were sharing highly classified information with a guy form the radar division. This seems like a violation of their security clearance.

Lazar makes the same claim. He was supposedly hired to revers engineer the anti-gravity propulsion system on a number of crashed UFOs, but as soon as he got to Area 51, he was giving access to all kinds of information about the aliens. Just doesn't seem right.

 

[Mendel]

That's not what I'm after, I'm curious about the word choice of security ... and then laws there.

Well, that's what I meant. I'm sorry we can't have a conversation.

 

[Mendel]

They probably scraped the surface for metal particles using a flat-head screwdriver.
View attachment 64527

In the case of Jim's ball, which is what Coulthart is scraping here, it was to get metal scrapings to send to immunologist(!!?) Garry Nolan. I imagine even Coulthart doesn't think alien DNA would be hanging around on Jim's ball after 40 years. Jane Fonda's DNA, perhaps. (She has touched Jim's ball.)

I took @FatPhil to mean that the pictured procedure is liable to collect the operator's DNA, either from their handling the ball in less than sterile conditions, or when the screwdriver slips and ends up in their other hand.