Many High-Ranking People Have Confirmed Existence of Secret UFO Programs. Who Has Already Made Similar Claims?

[NorCal Dave]

The numbers vary but claims like this come from Whistleblower David Grusch:

"Absolutely, based on interviewing over 40 witnesses over 4 years..."

1:07:30 in video of Congressional UAP hearings.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ7Dw-739VY&t=5s


And Michael Shellenberger is making similar claims here (paywalled, but I was able to screen shot the relevant bit):

https://public.substack.com/p/us-has-12-or-more-alien-space-craft

And repeats it here in an interview:


Source: https://twitter.com/MikeColangelo/status/1689732977020784641/mediaviewer


The first thing to note is that Grusch isn't necessarily saying all 40 people he talked to confirmed the existence of secret UFO programs, just that he interviewed 40 individuals over the course of 4 years, so presumably some of the 40 confirmed the secret programs. Similarly with Shellenberger's claim, his sources have "seen" or been "presented" with evidence of secret programs. We don't know who these sources are, but it need not be a large number. It may be only a few individuals that they have both spoken with.

Now I'm not saying we can discern the sources, but we can compile a list of people who fit the mold and/or have been making similar claims.

Right off the start, this is going to be more of a discussion thread, than any kind of Debunking as we still don't know who any of these 1-40 people are. We have various people saying they have talked to various people that have confirmed any number of claims regarding the government and UFO/UAPs. Primarily, that the US government, and maybe others, know about the existence of off world craft, have captured or retrieved crashed off world craft, have captured or retrieved non-human biological entities from these craft, are using these craft to reverse engineer new technologies and is covering up these programs.

The various people claiming to have talked to those with direct or indirect knowledge of these programs often identify their sources as current or ex-military and/or current or ex-Intelligence Community members.

As none of these sources has been revealed, we are left to ignore it all, which I don't think we can do, or we can engage in some reasoned speculation, which is more fun and we've already started doing it in other threads. While we don't know who these sources are, we can at least start to compile some names of known people that fit a few categories related to the current news cycle:

• Current or Ex-military
• Current or Ex-Intel member
• Current or Ex-Military or Intel Contractor
• Has made claims of the existence of UFOs and aliens, UFO recovery programs, alien recovery programs, UFO reverse engineering programs.
• Claims of Government cover up of the above.

I'm just starting with a few I know off the top of my head or recently discovered so I'm recycling some of the characters from other threads. I'm not ranking these in any order. Some are more likely candidates to be possible sources while others may fit the above criteria, but probably are not likely sources. And I threw in a few that are not strictly UFO proponents but do have what we might call fringe beliefs despite being high up in the military or IC just to show in organizations as big as the US military and IC, there's room for all kinds.

At this point I'm not trying to debunk or question the various people's beliefs and motivations. For this exercise I'm taking them at their word that they believe what they are saying unless painfully obvious otherwise.

This isn't intended as a "told you so" type of thing if some of these names end up being sources, rather, it's a collection of people that have been making very similar claims for years or decades and are or were in the military/IC or worked closely with them.

Maybe most important, these are just people I could easily find in a few hours that fit the profile of being potential sources or at least have the ability to tell some people what they want to hear. Who knows how many more there are we don't know about.

Col. John B Alexander. He ran an informal "Invisible Collage" type thing in the '80s looking for black UFO programs and later hooked up with Bigelow and his National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS). NIDS was Bigelow's privately funded research group that worked mostly at Skinwalker Ranch (SKR). Bigelow would create a similar company called Bigelow Advanced AeroSpace Sciences (BAASS) that would be the prime contractor to the government funded AAWSAP.

Alexander thinks UFOs are real as well as other paranormal stuff but thought it likely that there were NO secret black programs about them in government:

He is a former Pentagon insider and expert on UFOs and the potential use of remote viewing, psychokinesis, and other psychic skills in military operations. Dubbed by Luis Elizondo "a Godfather of everything weird and spooky at the Pentagon," he is a colleague and friend of Davis from NIDS and Skinwalker Ranch days.

Responding to Davis´s revelations, Col. Alexander told the author:

"In short, I agree with Eric. We worked together when he was with NIDS. Think I referred him to Bob [Bigelow] to get hired. As we discussed [in an earlier interview with the author], the objects are not made by humans. That said, the ET hypothesis is too simple. Trying to raise the complexity issues with [the general public is well beyond their comprehension—so simply stating "not man-made" should meet the needs of most people."

https://besacenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/183web-UPDATED.pdf

In 1985, Alexander founded the Advanced Theoretical Physics Project, an informal cadre of "government officials" (including "people from the Army, Navy, and Air Force, plus several from the defense aerospace industries and some members from the Intelligence Community")

…the group ultimately concluded that "there was no program" and that information collection among the military, Intelligence Community and other federal agencies "was pretty much ad hoc."[6] At the 2011 MUFON Symposium, Alexander's speech on UFOs was jeered by attendees after he denied all government related conspiracies, and all claims of government "silencing" or harassment.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Alexander

Harold (Hal) E. Puthoff. Puthoff has a PhD in electrical engineering specializing in lasers. He's most well known for experiments in ESP, remote viewing, psychokinesis and other Psy related subjects at the Stanford Research Institute (SRI) in the '70s as part of the CIA's Project Stargate.

He also worked at or had his company EarthTech contract to both NIDS and it's government paid for follow up at SWR, BAASS.

Puthoff partially endorsed the story of Project Zodiac, about crashed UFO retrievals:

EarthTech and former CIA scientist Hal Puthoff emails former CIA Life Sciences Division analyst Kit Green and his life partner Kristin B Zimmerman about a story published in a UFO magazine by a pseudonym "Greg Halifax" about a UAP crash retrieval personnel member pseudonym "Sedge Masters."

The story refers to Masters having participated in a UAP crash retrievals group known as "Zodiac ," of which Puthoff states "we have reason to believe the set of stories are only slightly fictionalized versions of a source's experiences writing up records for the archives at WPAFB." Puthoff asks Green if he's ever heard of Zodiac, "which is supposed to be the true name," not MJ-12 or Majestic 12.

https://ufos-scientificresearch.blogspot.com/2019/06/an-alleged-2001-national-institute-for.html

Puthoff thought there were secret UFO projects:

Author Nick Cook states Hal Puthoff (eventual AATIP scientist, see 25 March 2022) tells him the "evidence is pretty solid" that there are black budget aerospace programs that contravene white world understanding of the laws of physics. Puthoff states the most likely candidate for exotic propulsion is the perturbation of space-time by understanding the link between electromagnetism and gravity.

https://archive.org/details/huntforzeropoint0000cook/page/114/mode/1up

And he would hint that he knew more than he could talk about (note Alexander):

Hal Puthoff admits to Jacques Vallee in a car that he wouldn't tell Vallee everything about the secret black UFO program to protect one critical "deep throat" and in case Vallee is ever polygraphed. Puthoff states that the ATP Group in the 1980s, sponsored by BDM Corp. and led by Col John Alexander, was killed because "there was already another project." Puthoff states it was "deeply black" and "somebody" didn't want it exposed or duplicated.

https://www.amazon.com/Forbidden-Science-Pacific-Heights-2000-2009/dp/1949501248

Eric W. Davis. Davis has a PhD in astrophysics and works for Puthoff's EarthTech International and through that has contracted to Bigelow's NIDS and BAASS .

Davis is the likely author of The Wilson Memo, in which he claims Adml. Thomas Wilson told him about black UFO reverse engineering programs:

EarthTech International employee Dr. Eric Davis, author of several AATIP products years later, allegedly meets with VADM Thomas R. Wilson in a car outside of EG&G Special Projects in Las Vegas. Davis transcribes the interaction where he was told the following:

VADM Wilson found records of a UAP reverse engineering program using technology "not of this Earth," it was protected by a special agreement between the DOD Special Access Program Oversight Committee (SAPOC)'s Senior Review Group (SRG) and a large defense contractor he would not disclose.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6185702-Eric-Davis-meeting-with-Adm-Wilson

More detail on the memo is found here courtesy @LilWabbit:

Post # 27 The Congressional UAP Hearings Debrief | Metabunk

John Rameriz. Rameriz is, or claims to be an ex-CIA guy and that disclosure is coming soon, maybe 2027:

"We're kind of preparing the U.S. population at least, and by extension the world population, to that reality," he said.

"That there is a presence here and that we need to explain this presence. Because if they show up and we continue to do what we did before in previous decades, there will be mass panic," he continued.

Ramirez claimed that these denials were gearing up for an ultimate reveal of UFOs and other alien life forms - and those revelations will come in 2027.

"In many ways I think the word got out within the government that they're showing up in 2027 and we better be prepared," he said.

He continued: "I've heard 2027 in kind of an official capacity I can't reveal. I would say people in the government are aware of something happening and that there is limited time, a few more years, to prepare the people."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/tech...ng-prepared-claims-ex-cia-agent/ar-AA1f6BWX?o

Angelia Johnston Schultz AKA Anjali. Schultz is a former USAF member and former employee at the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA). Interesting note, the DIA is where AAWSAP was run form. From her LinkedIn, which doesn't copy and paste very well:

1993-1995 USAF
2004-2005 DIA, Lead Intelligence Officer
2005-2006 DIA, Intelligence Liaison Officer
2006-2009 BAE Systems for DIA, Lead Intelligence Analyst

(10) Experience | Anjali O. | LinkedIn

Shultz now believes that there is a secret UFO/Alien base buried in the Mojave desert of California. This is how she started her story on reddit, which is pretty standard:

"I've held back from telling this experience for fear of career-shattering retribution and exposure. Surely that isn't difficult to understand. But I read a comment in this sub last week about disclosure in which a guy said, here he (guy with classified info) is with this important information and he is the only one who gets to know it. And that struck me. I've been struggling with coming forward, but that comment resonated with me and helped to push me forward."

Anjali Timeline - Three-Dollar Kit (weebly.com)

Or that there is a world wide apocalypse coming in 2027, see Ramirez above for other 2027 happenings.

Our own @Charlie Wiser has an exhaustive review of Shutlz's claims at the site above.

Major General Albert Stubblebine, USA. While not quite a UFO guy, as the head of Army Intelligence he helped get Project Stargate going, was involved with Puthoff, Uri Gehller and SRI. He wanted an army of soldiers that could become invisible at will and walk through walls, so that's cool:

Stubblebine became a proponent of psychic warfare and initiated a project within the U.S. Army Intelligence and Security Command (INSCOM), which he commanded from 1981 to 1984, to create "a breed of 'super soldier'" who would "have the ability to become invisible at will and to walk through walls". He attempted to walk through walls himself[3][4]—but failed, as he himself described in a 2004 interview.[5] (These activities feature prominently in Jon Ronson's 2004 book The Men Who Stare at Goats.[6][7]

Albert Stubblebine - Wikipedia

Luitenit Colonal James Channing, USA. Again, not exactly a UFO guy, but did want to integrate New Age and Psy into combat troops and became the head of the First Earth Battalion:

His concept was that a new generation of "warrior monks" would utilize paranormal abilities and countercultural principles to better prevail in future conflicts with the nation's adversaries. At a subsequent 1979 briefing at the Fort Knox officer's club, Channon presented his concepts to "commanders", who (he claims) immediately made him the first commander of the First Earth Battalion.[8]

Jim Channon - Wikipedia

Garry Nolen. Nolen has a PhD in genetics and works at the Stanford University School of Medicine. He is also part of a non-profit called the SOL Foundation which recently hired David Grusch as COO. Nolen has studied various aspects of UFO, particularly meta-materials from supposedly crashed UFOs, possibly for the government:

Since the formation of the Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Task Force in 2020, multiple publications have reported on Nolan's involvement with The Pentagon and the CIA investigating samples of materials supposedly ejected at purported sites of UFO sightings.[29][1]

Nolan appeared on Fox News' Tucker Carlson Tonight[30] show on August 1, 2022, during which he discussed his UAP related research in an hour long interview.

Nolan said that he gives the probability as "100 percent" that extraterrestrials have not only visited Earth but have been visiting earth for a long time. He also shared his speculation that what has visited earth are simply "emissaries" and possibly drones, but that they are regular occurrences and that some governments have retrieved artifacts from these extraterrestrial craft. This was shared during a SALT iConnections conference in Manhattan in May of 2023 during an interview with Alex Klokus titled "The Pentagon, Extraterrestrial Intelligence and Crashed UFOs".[31][32] As New York Times columnist Ezra Klein interviewed journalist and UFO author Leslie Kean in June 2023, Kean told Klein that Nolan "knows David Grusch very well and vouches for him".[33]

Garry Nolan - Wikipedia

Master Sargent Daniel Morris USAF Ret. Despite Morris' claims to have top secret clearance that even presidents don't have, Schellenberger's Substack news site Public, had an opinion piece that quoted his as legitimate source:

What's more, there is at least one whistleblower who claims to have issued threats to UAP witnesses. Retired U.S. Air Force Master Sergeant, Daniel Morris, reported that the National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) recruited him after he served in Air Force Intelligence.

"I would go interview people who claimed they had seen something and try to convince them they hadn't seen something or that they were hallucinating," Morris said. "If that didn't work, another team would come in and give all the threats, and threaten them and their family … And they would be in charge of discrediting them, making them look foolish … Now if that didn't work, then there was another team that put an end to that problem, one way or another."

https://public.substack.com/p/alleged-death-threats-against-ufo

Among Morris' other claims:

I had a clearance 38 levels above top secret, which is cosmic top-secret -it is the top of all of those clearances. It is for UFOs, and aliens, etc. No president has had that level, has ever been cleared for that level. Eisenhower was the closest.

If you're on that level, then there's an organization worldwide called ACIO, that's Alien Contact Intelligence Organization. If you pay your dues and you follow the rules, your government is allowed to benefit from that organization's information.

There are other people who have been eliminated for what they know. One was a friend of mine, Phil Snyder, who worked out here in New Mexico building the tunnels- the biggest one that he was involved with was the Dulce underground facility.

No Congress ever voted on any of these black projects, and he believed the American people had a right to know what they were spending their money for and what we were capable of doing. And he started talking, so they got rid of him…

https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/disclosure/briefing/disclosure12.htm

Well, that's a start and not a very exhaustive one. Many, though not all of the people listed could conceivably fit the criteria as a current or ex-Military, IC member or connected military/IC contractor that could be a source for secret UFO programs.

 

[Candy-O]

30? Why not 300? Hell I've got one in my backyard I never bothered to hand over.

Have we reached peak silliness yet?

 

[Ann K]

I'll just wait until a soldier walks through my wall to tell me the rest of the names. Seriously though, the more overlapping of various paranormal fields, the less confidence I place in any of them.

 

[NorCal Dave]

I'll just wait until a soldier walks through my wall to tell me the rest of the names.

Agreed, but I included General "Stubbie" because he was a legit General in the US Army and seemed to think he could walk through walls. So, how farfetched is it to think a few people high up in the military and IC think The X Files was on to something?

 

[LilWabbit]

Good stuff @NorCal Dave as always. The list could go on and on.

We could add Oke Shannon (former LANL employee) who allegedly convinced VADM Wilson to talk to Eric Davis.

We could add Commander Will Miller (a ufologist and former Navy officer who worked with Steven Greer upon retirement) whom Davis regards a source in the forgery-like letter received from Cdr. Miller (which Miller denies ever sending), and attached to the Wilson-Davis Memo.

We could add Mellon, Elizondo, Stratton and Taylor whereby the first two boast a longer DoD career whilst the latter two were with the UAPTF. All technically former DoD employees who claim to have witnessed stuff or spoken to witnesses who claim to have witnessed stuff.

Hell, even Bob Lazar qualifies as having had a DoD "connection" albeit not quite the kind he claims.

I think we already have over 20 people.

 

[AmberRobot]

The first thing to note is that Grusch isn't necessarily saying all 40 people he talked to confirmed the existence of secret UFO programs, just that he interviewed 40 individuals over the course of 4 years, so presumably some of the 40 confirmed the secret programs.

But what would be the point in mentioning 40 people if only a small number had relevant information? If that's true then it would seem the phrase is intended to mislead, to imply forty people were confirming something when the number was actually smaller.

 

[LilWabbit]

But what would be the point in mentioning 40 people if only a small number had relevant information?

Because 40+ is a bigger number.

 

[Duke]

There are another couple guys he might have talked to, both retired Army NCOs. One is former Command Sergeant Major Robert Dean, who claimed to have had the full scoop on UFOs from a report he read while stationed at NATO Hq. Dean was a regular on the ufology circuit, he died a year or so before COVID.

The other is another retired senior NCO by the name of Clifford Stone. He claimed to have participated in UFO recovery missions while in the US Army during the Vietnam era. He died just a couple years ago.



From the book's introduction.

Sgt. Clifford Stone is one of the most important truth tellers of our time. This book is a collector's treasure of his unique personal experiences in the military with real extraterrestrial beings.

 

[sephirex]

@NorCal Dave thank you so much for this!

Rear Admiral Tim Gallaudet, USA - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Gallaudet

He witnessed the GOFAST video on SIPRNET where an Admiral was asking for help in interpreting the UAPs before the email chain was deleted the next day.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFvRnfGypCk

he also confirms Grusch's 2nd order claim that he's spoken to multiple people with firsthand evidence, but hasn't seen it himself.

 

[FatPhil]

I'll just wait until a soldier walks through my wall to tell me the rest of the names. Seriously though, the more overlapping of various paranormal fields, the less confidence I place in any of them.

This is Bayesian. Welcome to team Bayes. If you can predict that someone will make a particular statement on a matter, then his making of that statement tells you no new bits of information apart from the fact that your prediction was correct.

 

[NorCal Dave]

We could add Mellon, Elizondo, Stratton and Taylor whereby the first two boast a longer DoD career whilst the latter two were with the UAPTF. All technically former DoD employees who claim to have witnessed stuff or spoken to witnesses who claim to have witnessed stuff.

Indeed. I was just getting the ball rolling. I'll add them if I get time unless others do before me.

 

[Ann K]

who claim to have witnessed stuff or spoken to witnesses who claim to have witnessed stuff.

Essentially the ones who really matter regarding facts are the ones "who claim to have witnessed stuff", rather than the number of people they might have spoken to. And if we get down to the nitty gritty, those who saw a photo or glimpsed a piece of crumpled metal are far less worth listening to than someone who might have actually done laboratory analysis on such materials. When all we get is "X told me", we are several-to-many steps away from genuine evidence. Absent the names and testimony of genuine investigators, we are right to ask if there is any THERE there.

Basically we are just listing the names of people in on the "telephone game".

 

[Amathia]

Don't forget Richard Doty.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirage_Men

And another one:

Lt. Col. Philip J. Corso (Ret.):

In his book The Day After Roswell (co-author William J. Birnes), Corso claims he stewarded extraterrestrial artifacts recovered from a crash near Roswell, New Mexico, in 1947.

Corso says a covert government group was assembled under the leadership of Adm. Roscoe H. Hillenkoetter, the first director of Central Intelligence (see Majestic 12). Among its tasks was to collect all information on off-planet technology. The US administration simultaneously discounted the existence of flying saucers in the eyes of the public, Corso says.

According to Corso, the reverse engineering of these artifacts indirectly led to the development of accelerated particle beam devices, fiber optics, lasers, integrated circuit chips and Kevlar material.

In the book, Corso claims the Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI), or "Star Wars", was meant to achieve the destructive capacity of electronic guidance systems in incoming enemy warheads, as well as the disabling of enemy spacecraft, including those of extraterrestrial origin.

More names in this documentary but I can't time stamp them right now sadly:


Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjEetIQVAMM&t=929s



Btw, just out of curiosity, this documentary makes the case that the UFO flap is part of a decades-long disinformation campaign on the American public.

I'm wondering what folks here think about this specific claim, does it warrant its own thread? Is it the kind of claim that ought to be debunked or is it a live option that should be taken seriously among the other plausible explanations? Where should this kind of claim sit on the UFO continuum?

 

[Duke]

Don't forget Richard Doty.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirage_Men

And another one:

Lt. Col. Philip J. Corso (Ret.):

In his book The Day After Roswell (co-author William J. Birnes), Corso claims he stewarded extraterrestrial artifacts recovered from a crash near Roswell, New Mexico, in 1947.

Corso says a covert government group was assembled under the leadership of Adm. Roscoe H. Hillenkoetter, the first director of Central Intelligence (see Majestic 12). Among its tasks was to collect all information on off-planet technology. The US administration simultaneously discounted the existence of flying saucers in the eyes of the public, Corso says.

According to Corso, the reverse engineering of these artifacts indirectly led to the development of accelerated particle beam devices, fiber optics, lasers, integrated circuit chips and Kevlar material.

In the book, Corso claims the Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI), or "Star Wars", was meant to achieve the destructive capacity of electronic guidance systems in incoming enemy warheads, as well as the disabling of enemy spacecraft, including those of extraterrestrial origin.

Col Corso died in 1998. So if Grusch, who is 36(ish), met/talked to Corso, he'd have been no older than 10-12 years old. Of course Grusch could include Corso's book among the documents he claims to have seen. We know former Canadian Defense Minister Paul Paul Hellyer's believed in UFOs in large part due to Corso's claims.

 

[Cogg84]

Don't forget Richard Doty.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirage_Men

And another one:

Lt. Col. Philip J. Corso (Ret.):

In his book The Day After Roswell (co-author William J. Birnes), Corso claims he stewarded extraterrestrial artifacts recovered from a crash near Roswell, New Mexico, in 1947.

Corso says a covert government group was assembled under the leadership of Adm. Roscoe H. Hillenkoetter, the first director of Central Intelligence (see Majestic 12). Among its tasks was to collect all information on off-planet technology. The US administration simultaneously discounted the existence of flying saucers in the eyes of the public, Corso says.

According to Corso, the reverse engineering of these artifacts indirectly led to the development of accelerated particle beam devices, fiber optics, lasers, integrated circuit chips and Kevlar material.

In the book, Corso claims the Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI), or "Star Wars", was meant to achieve the destructive capacity of electronic guidance systems in incoming enemy warheads, as well as the disabling of enemy spacecraft, including those of extraterrestrial origin.

More names in this documentary but I can't time stamp them right now sadly:


Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjEetIQVAMM&t=929s



Btw, just out of curiosity, this documentary makes the case that the UFO flap is part of a decades-long disinformation campaign on the American public.

I'm wondering what folks here thing about this specific claim, does it warrant its own thread? Is it the kind of claim that ought to be debunked or is it a live option that should be taken seriously among the other plausible explanations? Where should this kind of claim sit on the UFO continuum?

I thought this documentary was extremely detailed and informative. For me it pieced together lot of details of the ufo landscape that I already knew but couldn't find connections with. I found it absolutely fascinating that tactics that were used on tv producers in the 70's and 80's were used on people like Gary Nolan in the present day. Days away from being shown physical evidence only at the last minute people at the DoD pull the plug.

Personally I think this documentary warrants its own thread because it highlights the overarching narrative of ufology from past to present and it includes themes, people, and events that are already covered on MB. Just my 2 cents.

 

[John J.]

I thought this documentary was extremely detailed and informative.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one!
It was about as rigorous as a "UFO Hunters" episode. It describes "the overarching narrative of ufology" from a wholly biased standpoint.

It repeated many of the same old claims without producing any new evidence, but with the added negativity of implying that some people within "Ufology" are actually infiltrators to be feared.

The composition of the film and its presentational techniques- assertion without consideration of alternatives, the rapid moving from one "sub-plot" to another, interspersed with often striking or ominous-looking images/ brief film clips, the measured narration- -are all very, very reminiscent of the (much superior) work of documentary filmmaker Adam Curtiss
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Curtis
("The Power of Nightmares", "Bitter Lake", "HyperNormalisation", "Can't Get You Out of My Head"- none about UFOs).

 

[Charlie Wiser]

Anjali Timeline - Three-Dollar Kit (weebly.com)

Or that there is a world wide apocalypse coming in 2027, see Ramirez above for other 2027 happenings.

Our own @Charlie Wiser has an exhaustive review of Shutlz's claims at the site above.

Anjali notably has said none of her work for the government involved UFOs:

Q: With your career in intelligence, was there anything to do with ETs or UFOs or UAPs?

Absolutely not, not in any way, shape or form, no.

[Fade To Black, Aug 2021]

Her claims are evidence-free and impossible in this dimension (though she promised to bring back evidence before the end of 2021) and rests on her credibility as former DIA. Here she promises to tell us what the cube-in-a-sphere (reported secondhand by Ryan Graves) is, thanks to info from her higher beings. She already told interviewers allegedly reporting to UAPTF in 2021-22:

Just wait until they find out that it isn't actually a cube.
#TheCouncil has shown me this anomaly multiple times. I have explained this to several ufology and DOD people in private conversations & in-depth interviews as far back as 2021, detailing what #TheBeings say that it actually is, and it blew my mind. Surely it was reported to #UAPTF….
It ain't a cube, folks.

Source: https://twitter.com/AnjaliOnGaia/status/1689347577899044864
Aug 9, 2023

Tune in to her podcast to find out!

 

[Cogg84]

I just looked at her Twitter page…good lord

 

[JMartJr]

this documentary makes the case that the UFO flap is part of a decades-long disinformation campaign on the American public.

I'm wondering what folks here think about this specific claim, does it warrant its own thread?

Possibly. It is a claim I have seen often in some UFO discussions (and in flat earth discussions), some of it is likely coming form trolls, some from people playing the "My Rabbit Hole Goes Deeper Than Your Rabbit Hole" game. The motive is generally claimed to be "they are pushing this incorrect/silly conspiracy theory to distract-from/discredit this REAL conspiracy theory over here...

 

[Amathia]

I know he doesn't meet the criteria outlined in your post, but Steven Greer claims to have been one of the people who met with Grusch and provided him info about facilities and operations:


Source: https://twitter.com/DrStevenGreer/status/1666452566190829568


Grusch then publicly distanced himself from Greer, but his request was that Greer stop using his name to promote his personal agenda. It's unclear if this is also a tacit condemnation or disavowal of whatever information Greer told him as well, or if it's just a "stop using my name to sell your stuff" condemnation and that's it.


Source: https://twitter.com/TheZignal/status/1666085764688674816?s=20

 

[knobby]

It's unclear if this is also a tacit condemnation or disavowal of whatever information Greer told him as well, or if it's just a "stop using my name to sell your stuff" condemnation and that's it.

Felt like it was the mentoring comment that upset him the most. I think Grusch believes he's saving the world and that it's all due to his own efforts and nobody else.

 

[Amathia]

I just looked at her Twitter page…good lord

I don't exactly know how to say this without breaking the rules but, after reading her claims and watching some of her interviews on YouTube, including this one where she explains why her prediction didn't come true, I see a lot of signs consistent with visual and auditory hallucinations prevalent in certain mental health conditions.

https://www.youtube.com/live/wkucV6wZYXk?feature=share

I'll just say this: in addition to her experience of walking into a cave and meeting these extraterrestrials, she states that she continues to communicate with them meditation or semi-telepathic way. She is relaying what she is told by these beings to the best of her ability. It was these beings that urged her to publicly make an announcement for an expedition back to that cave that was to include several scientists. In her account of why it never came to happen, she references a zoom conversation she had with "Wayne" and his wife that in hindsight, upon watching it again she gets the impression that they weren't really on the same page about said expedition. Something she only noticed after watching the zoom call again. She doesn't know exactly what happened and seems genuinely confused by it all.

One obvious interpretation is that this is just another example of a well known grifter technique. Make promises that something is coming, then inevitably you fail to deliver and come up with all sorts or rationalizations as to why it didn't happen.

But another explanation that I think might actually be going on just in her specific case is mental health related. There are many people I work with who have inexplicable experiences in their waking lives that they can recount to me in great detail and in complete honesty but which almost certainly didn't happen.

Sometimes these same individuals also have auditory hallucinations ("hearing voices") that persist on a day to day basis. An interesting thing about a lot of these voices is their trickster nature. They'll make predictions about things which never come to pass. They'll tell people to do certain things ("steal that car, drive on this highway, then we'll tell you what will happen next"). They lead people on an endless goose chase that the person is constantly trying to understand and figure out but which always leads to frustration and an inability to piece it all together.

Some voices pretend to be spirits, other voices take on the tone and personality of loved ones & friends (living or deceased), others just sound like total strangers, some voices pretend to be demons, other voices will sound like some kind of military person communicating via radio static or satellite signals, and only one time I've worked with a person whose voice(s) pretended to be aliens.

After going down a rabbit hole it seems my suspicions about her were confirmed, though in this case it sounds like it was a case of cannabis oil induced psychosis:


Source: https://twitter.com/likeitmatters3/status/1498140127201169411


And From this article:

"Anjali has provided no evidence for the claims she began making in March 2021. In February 2022, the couple "Wayne and Trisha" contacted me to say there is no tunnel on their land, they don't have the resources or know-how to excavate such a tunnel anyway, they never took Anjali to meet aliens, and that she visited them one afternoon, got high on cannabis oil which caused her daughter to call 911, and 3.5 years later contacted them with her bizarre story - after she'd already been talking about it on Reddit for 5 months and had announced an expedition team to collect evidence of higher beings without informing or asking them first. They were unable to convince her that the experience was only in her head."

Just another reminder that in this space there are grifters but there are also genuinely honest individuals who may simply be struggling with an experience or experiences they're trying to make sense of to the best of their ability.

 

[Charlie Wiser]

And From this article:



Just another reminder that in this space there are grifters but there are also genuinely honest individuals who may simply be struggling with an experience or experiences they're trying to make sense of to the best of their ability.

That's my website. I have tracked her closely since her press conference in 2021. I spoke to the couple whom she claimed took her to meet the aliens. They told me she was high, which she has never admitted to (though she admitted taking the drug, finally, after they threatened to reveal it themselves).

She is delusional, not a grifter. She has admitted to multiple health issues (including brain health). I agree she's trying to make sense of her experience. She has also told many provable lies in order to manipulate or gaslight others (including myself and the land owners, as well as her followers in general) in order to publicly sustain the delusion. There are personality issues in play, in addition to the health issues and drugs, imo.

She poses a danger imo because she predicts a worldwide cataclysm (probably 2027), solar flare, floods, ice age, blackouts, mass extinction, but for those who've made contact with their ET "family", they - or specifically their consciousnesses - will be rescued and taken off world before the worst of it. This is almost the exact scenario of Heaven's Gate.

 

[NorCal Dave]

and rests on her credibility as former DIA. Here she promises to tell us what the cube-in-a-sphere (reported secondhand by Ryan Graves) is, thanks to info from her higher beings. She already told interviewers allegedly reporting to UAPTF in 2021-22:

So, she is claiming she spoke to UAPTF folks? I found out about her on your website Charlie and I swear she pooped up last week somewhere. It reminded me that she is ex-DIA and a UFO/alien person, but I included her just as an example of Ex-Intel that has some strong UFO beliefs. IF she spoke to UAPTF, that's more than I thought, but goes along with the point of the OP.

 

[Charlie Wiser]

So, she is claiming she spoke to UAPTF folks? I found out about her on your website Charlie and I swear she pooped up last week somewhere. It reminded me that she is ex-DIA and a UFO/alien person, but I included her just as an example of Ex-Intel that has some strong UFO beliefs. IF she spoke to UAPTF, that's more than I thought, but goes along with the point of the OP.

Initially she claimed this, then when Tim McMillan asked Stratton about her, Stratton said nope. So Anjali then said it was people from another DoD dept who report to UAPTF.

John Ramirez added his two cents by explaining that UAPTF only had 4 members (Steven Greenstreet has since told me there were at least 7 that he knows the names of) so they were understaffed and sent CIA to interview Anjali in 2021-22, who then reported back to UAPTF. For some reason, these CIA gentlemen were undercover even though Anjali was a friendly witness and former DIA.

 

[Amathia]

So, she is claiming she spoke to UAPTF folks? I found out about her on your website Charlie and I swear she pooped up last week somewhere. It reminded me that she is ex-DIA and a UFO/alien person, but I included her just as an example of Ex-Intel that has some strong UFO beliefs. IF she spoke to UAPTF, that's more than I thought, but goes along with the point of the OP.

She may have popped up in this video I posted with her next to Richard Doty last week:


Source: https://youtu.be/7zKyy8h5Ow4

 

[Mendel]

She poses a danger imo because she predicts a worldwide cataclysm (probably 2027), solar flare, floods, ice age, blackouts, mass extinction, but for those who've made contact with their ET "family", they - or specifically their consciousnesses - will be rescued and taken off world before the worst of it. This is almost the exact scenario of Heaven's Gate.

For those of us reading along:

Article:

Heaven's Gate was an American new religious movement (often described as a cult) whose members committed mass suicide in 1997.

The central belief of the group was that followers could transform themselves into immortal extraterrestrial beings by rejecting their human nature, and they would ascend to heaven, referred to as the "Next Level" or "The Evolutionary Level Above Human". The death of Nettles from cancer in 1985 challenged the group's views on ascension; where they originally believed that they would ascend to heaven while alive aboard a UFO, they later came to believe that the body was merely a "container" or "vehicle" for the soul and that their consciousness would be transferred to new "Next Level bodies" upon death.

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_(religious_group)

 

[Charlie Wiser]

She may have popped up in this video I posted with her next to Richard Doty last week:

You are cosmicjudas?

 

[Amathia]

You are cosmicjudas?

Lmao no, sorry, I meant video that I posted here on MB. I'm not even a third as funny as cosmicjudas sadly.

 

[MonkeeSage]

Adding some of the claims people already mentioned in this thread make related to injuries caused by ET/UFOs/entities.

Hal Puthoff believes people have been injured by being in proximity with UAPs, referencing back to work BAASS had done in this clip:

Source: https://youtu.be/pOxcUKzrY_U?t=1693

He doesn't say what specific work, but I suspect it is Kit Green's 2010 DIRD report titled Anomalous Acute and Subacute Field Effects on Human Biological Tissues

Article:

This paper relates, summarizes, and analyzes evidence of unintended injury to human observers by anomalous advanced aerospace systems. Additionally, an argument is made that the subsequent work can inform (e.g., reverse engineer), through clinical diagnoses, certain physical characteristics of possible future advanced aerospace systems from unknown provenance that may be a threat to United States interests.

Source: https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/dia/AAWSAP-DIRDs/DIRD_26-DIRD_Anomalous_Acute_and_Subacute_Field_Effects_on_Human_Biological_Tissues.pdf

The paper is mainly a study of RF effects on human tissue, but Appendix A and C make it clear he means ET/UFOs by "anomalous advanced aerospace systems."

Article:

The Schuessler catalog, UFO-Related Human Physiological Effects, was complied in 1996 by MUFON's past Director, John F. Schuessler. Covering the time period 1873 -1994, the catalog comprises a summary of 356 selected cases of UFO-induced physiological effects on humans during close encounters. Physiological effects enumerated include such phenomena as paralysis, electrical shocks, feeling of heat, burns~ perception of odors, etc. A compilation of the frequency distribution of these effects is enumerated below. The catalog thus constitutes a useful data base from which it is anticipated that certain physical source causes may be inferred.

Table of Effects frequency
[...table that matches Puthoff slide above is shown...]

Source: https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/dia/AAWSAP-DIRDs/DIRD_26-DIRD_Anomalous_Acute_and_Subacute_Field_Effects_on_Human_Biological_Tissues.pdf

Appendix C gives all the definitions of Hynek's Close Encounter and Anomalous Behavior ratings and where the previously given table of alleged UFO injuries are charted against them.

Garry Nolan was brought in to study some of the cases of alleged injury from ET/UFO/entity encounters that Green had been studying and also appears to privately believe although careful to refrain from making a public declaration without more than circumstantial evidence.

Article:

How many patients did you take a look at in that first phase?
It was around 100 patients. They were almost all defense or governmental personnel or people working in the aerospace industry; people doing government-level work. Here's how it works: Let's say that a Department of Defense personnel gets damaged or hurt. Odd cases go up the chain of command, at least within the medical branch. If nobody knows what to do with it, it goes over to what's called the weird desk, where things get thrown in a bucket. Then somebody eventually says, 'Oh, there's enough interesting things in this bucket worth following up on that all look reasonably similar.' Science works by comparing things that are similar and dissimilar to other things. Enough people were having very similar kinds of bad things happen to them, that it came to the attention of a guy by the name of Dr. Kit Green. He was in charge of studying some of these individuals. You have a smorgasbord of patients, some of whom had heard weird noises buzzing in their head, got sick, etc. A reasonable subset of them had claimed to have seen UAPs and some claimed to be close to things that got them sick. [...]

We started to notice that there were similarities in what we thought was the damage across multiple individuals. As we looked more closely, though, we realized, well, that can't be damaged, because that's right in the middle of the basal ganglia [a group of nuclei responsible for motor control and other core brain functions]. If those structures were severely damaged, these people would be dead. That was when we realized that these people were not damaged, but had an over-connection of neurons between the head of the caudate and the putamen [The caudate nucleus plays a critical role in various higher neurological functions; the putamen influences motor planning, learning, and execution]. If you looked at 100 average people, you wouldn't see this kind of density. But these individuals had it. An open question is: did coming in contact with whatever it was cause it or not? [...]

Did the people who claimed that they'd had an encounter, especially the pilots, describe any perceivable decrease in neurological capacity?
Of the 100 or so patients that we looked at, about a quarter of them died from their injuries. The majority of these patients had symptomology that's basically identical to what's now called Havana syndrome. We think amongst this bucket list of cases, we had the first Havana syndrome patients. Once this turned into a national security problem with the Havana syndrome I was locked out of all of the access to the files because it's now a serious potential international incident if they ever figured out who's been doing it.

That still left individuals who had seen UAPs. They didn't have Havana syndrome. They had a smorgasbord of other symptoms. [...]

Are you simply attempting to document what you see? Or are you looking for a cause as well?
Yes, it's kind of the natural way that science is done. First, you catalog, then you organize and then you say: well, this is similar to that and this other thing is similar to that but why is this other thing different? And then, if you have enough data, you start to look for causes. I do that every day with our cancer work. We always try to come up with hypotheses on why something is. Hypotheses are innumerable—they are proof of nothing. So, I am careful NOT to come to a premature conclusion because you only need one disproof to undermine a hypothesis. That's what I'm trying to stay away from. I have my private thoughts about what I think is going on, and some of them I'm very, very sure about. I'm open to being wrong. Except most of the time, I know I'm probably right.

Source: https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7nzkq/stanford-professor-garry-nolan-analyzing-anomalous-materials-from-ufo-crashes

This seems to be related to what the SWR crew call the "Hitchiker Effect", which Travis Taylor also claims to have experienced in this interview with George Knapp, although his version is not a dramatic and he doesn't claim any injuries himself AFAIK.

Article:

Knapp: Can you explain that? Is there the physics of the hitchhiker effect? I know people find that just too far out. You've experienced it yourself.

Taylor: Yeah. And, you know, we were always nervous about talking about the hitchhiker effect, because we might stimulate it. We don't know what causes it. But could there be a physics explanation? Well, if it's maybe functioning through quantum physics, there's a possibility of quantum entanglement, that somehow whatever describes our consciousness, which is most likely a quantum phenomena gets entangled with whatever the phenomena is. And so wherever you go, you're still connected to it. [...]

Knapp: You've taken it home with you.

Taylor: Oh, I have seen some things and some things that my car has started and stopped itself. Sometimes it'll the electronics way weird for no reason, and then they'll be fine. I've actually had that happen once driving out of my driveway, my car just turned itself off. And I just happened to get out because I was wondering, just curiosity. And I thought, well, if I'm at the ranch, and we'll get out, start looking around. So I got out of the car, and I looked up and there was an odd vortex in the clouds above my house. When this happened, I can't explain that. I'm just saying those are correlated events. I don't have any other data to go along with it. But that's the weird piece of data. But when I got back in, the car cranked right up.

Source: https://www.8newsnow.com/investigators/i-team-skinwalker-ranch-and-the-hitchhiker-effect/

In an interview from last year with George Knapp, TTSA co-founder and 25 year veteran of the CIA Directorate of Operations Jim Semivan related a story how in the 1990's he and his wife experience an "entity" in their bedroom and had negative health effects and experiences since that time. He says he eventually told John Alexander about it in around 2014 and was put in touch with "a group you [George] know" who took blood and did other tests. I have not been able to find another upload of the video and it appears the original video has been deleted.

Luis Elizondo also repeats similar claims in an interview with Linda Moulton Howe.

Article:

The second game-changing reveal Mr. Elizondo shared was shared during a discussion about how some pilots and other individuals who had come in close contact with UFOs had some negative brain damage and radiation burns. [...]

Source: https://unknownboundaries.com/former-aatip-director-tells-of-ufos-bringing-aircraft-carrier-offline-and-causing-positive-brain-changes/

Jay Stratton was given the codename Jonathan Axelrod in the book Skinwalkers at the Pentagon: An Insiders' Account of the Secret Government UFO Program by James T. Lakatski, Colm A. Kelleher, George Knapp. We know Stratton is Axelrod because he told an abridged version of the story on a recent SWR episode.

Stratton and his family as well as a colleague Jim Costigan, all allegedly experienced ET/UFO/entity related paranormal events that lead to various injuries. A few examples from the book.

p. 62

In addition to Jim Lacatski, Jonathan Axelrod brought a team of people to the dinner, three of whom were already engaged in an in-depth investigation of the encounter of the Nimitz Carrier Strike Group with a Tic Tac-shaped object off the coast of San Diego a few years earlier. By the time of the dinner, Axelrod and his team had already completed most of the pilot and Aegis radar operator interviews. Back then, in 2009, this Tic Tac event, which was to become the most famous UAP event in history, was known to only a very few people at BAASS and some highly specialized military investigators led by Jonathan Axelrod. Also, by the time of the dinner, two of Axelrod's team, Jim Costigan and David Wilson, as well as Axelrod himself, had visited Skinwalker Ranch and were already experiencing some ranch-aftermath high strangeness events in their homes.

pp. 88-89

Blue Orb in Maryland
We next turn our attention to an event that took place in a highly populated area in urban Maryland.
Two months after the July 2009 incident Jim Costigan had experienced at Skinwalker Ranch (see Chapter 1), life in his home in suburban Maryland had returned to normal. Then on a balmy September evening, Costigan, his wife, Laila, and their dog left their home just after 10:00 p.m. for their nightly two-mile dog walk. It was slightly humid and quite warm, but all three were enjoying the leisurely stroll around the quiet suburb. It was late enough that most of their neighbors were indoors.
"What the heck is that?" murmured Laila. She had stopped walking and was fixating on something she had seen over Costigan's left shoulder. He turned and took in a sharp breath. About 20 yards away, a blue orb was moving in their direction. It was no more than six feet off the ground, bright blue, softball-sized, and completely silent. Without warning it accelerated and quickly shot between them, barely grazing Laila's shoulder as it passed. She did not feel the fast-moving object as it passed, but Costigan was certain it was no more than an inch from Laila's shoulder. The orb continued in a straight line and within seconds was lost behind a house.
Their dog appeared not to have noticed the orb.
There was a stunned silence, Costigan and his wife just looking at each other. Nothing stirred in the sleepy neighborhood. Costigan swallowed hard and asked her if she was okay. She nodded without speaking, appearing distracted. They then walked back home in silence. Laila had heard some of the anecdotes from Skinwalker Ranch, but he had never described anything in detail to her. Costigan felt a deep sense of unease as the couple prepared for bed. The Costigans had owned their house for several years and had never experienced anything even slightly out of the ordinary, either inside their home or in the neighborhood, before his visit to Skinwalker Ranch.
Costigan's friend and colleague, Jonathan Axelrod, who had visited theranch at the same time, had recently begun telling Costigan about some
bizarre happenings at his home. Axelrod was adamant that his trip to Skinwalker Ranch had unleashed a paranormal firestorm on his family. This fact made Costigan doubly uneasy. He and Laila both slept late the day following their blue orb encounter. When she got up, Laila observed that her body hurt. She had a headache and was experiencing flu symptoms. It was a given in the family that the superbly athletic and very fit Laila simply never got sick.
Costigan left for work promising to check with Laila later in the day. But he couldn't reach her when he called, and when he got home, he found her lying listlessly in bed with no energy and a severe headache. In the days that followed, Laila called in sick and took some flu medicine, but her symptoms persisted. A week later she went to the doctor. Multiple tests were run and several vials of her blood were taken. Laila remained lethargic, her joints were increasingly painful, and she regularly complained of feeling unwell. Two weeks later all the tests were back. At the meeting with her primary physician, Costigan could tell that the doctor was at a loss to explain what had happened to his wife.
After dozens of additional doctor visits, including neurologists, immunologists, and other specialists, Laila's constellation of bizarre symptoms was eventually diagnosed. She had Hashimoto's Thyroiditis—an autoimmune disease in which the immune system attacks the thyroid gland. His wife has been on medication ever since. Costigan is adamant that the development of her autoimmune disease was a direct consequence of her close encounter with the blue orb.

This tiktok video claims to show more recent documents from SWR folks where they are calling it Interference Syndrome and it looks like it's mostly based on the above information and ideas. Can't verify provenance but it matches so well I don't see a reason to doubt it.

Source: https://www.tiktok.com/@museumoftarot/video/7258450752882986283?_r=1&_t=8eBs84cX88t


These claims of injury are not called out specifically in any of the bullet points in OP, but they fit with Grusch's claims regarding (potentially malevolent) entities who have harmed or killed humans, so I figured they should be included.


Also these purported leaked emails show a NIDS report to Robert Bigelow from Eric Davis, with Hal Puthoff also consenting, to Kit Green's assessment that the Santilli Alien Autopsy film is most likely real and "There is very good reason to believe that the alien autopsy tissues are located at WR-AFIP because all forensic samples are kept there."


Source: https://imgur.com/a/7D5xIGk

 

[Amathia]

Initially she claimed this, then when Tim McMillan asked Stratton about her, Stratton said nope. So Anjali then said it was people from another DoD dept who report to UAPTF.

John Ramirez added his two cents by explaining that UAPTF only had 4 members (Steven Greenstreet has since told me there were at least 7 that he knows the names of) so they were understaffed and sent CIA to interview Anjali in 2021-22, who then reported back to UAPTF. For some reason, these CIA gentlemen were undercover even though Anjali was a friendly witness and former DIA.

Two quick questions:

Do you know if she was the first person who started the whole "2027" thing that keeps popping up all over the place or did she co-opt it?

And, do you happen to know if she made claims about her alien experiences before the hypnotic regression took place or only afterwards? If only afterwards then the best explanation is a false memory she came to believe due to Barbara Lamb's careless use of hypnosis. If she was making claims before the regression then the cannabis induced psychosis is a likely explanation, which only then got cemented even further after regression "confirmed" the experiences in her mind.

 

[Charlie Wiser]

Two quick questions:

Do you know if she was the first person who started the whole "2027" thing that keeps popping up all over the place or did she co-opt it?

I don't know enough about woo stuff to know, but when she first announced it there were comments from people who said they'd heard a similar date.

And, do you happen to know if she made claims about her alien experiences before the hypnotic regression took place or only afterwards? If only afterwards then the best explanation is a false memory she came to believe due to Barbara Lamb's careless use of hypnosis. If she was making claims before the regression then the cannabis induced psychosis is a likely explanation, which only then got cemented even further after regression "confirmed" the experiences in her mind.

Her entire experience was posted on Reddit March 2021. Her hypnoregression was a few weeks later and (the excruciating part she released) didn't reveal anything new about the tunnel adventure except for the message she was given by the higher beings, which was that she's an advanced consciousness from Orion who volunteered for the uncomfortable mission of going into a 3rd density body as a mouthpiece on Earth for higher beings, to tell us to meditate until we can talk to higher beings ourselves and get ready to meet them. Or something. It's vague and it changes. Notably, she first met higher beings while watching Netflix.

I don't know if psychosis created the memories but the cannabis provably screwed with her memories of the day (Jan 2018). She forgot what happened the next day (because nothing happened - duh) and only two years later, after lots of meditation and medication and cannabis did she manage to properly remember on a daily basis. She was on Reddit during 2018-19 and said nothing about meeting aliens in a tunnel.

 

[NorCal Dave]

Adding some of the claims people already mentioned in this thread make related to injuries caused by ET/UFOs/entities.

Nice post sir. It also shows the constant revolving door of characters and claims that are continuingly mashed up and rehashed over the decades.

 

[Amathia]

Interesting tweet by Anjali. Wondering if these "certain intelligence circles" include the usual suspects. And I wonder if there's something about working in this line of work that can contribute to some of these folks losing their grip on reality, not in a mental health sense, but in the sense that when you're so deeply involved with intelligence and counter-intelligence, your ability to discern truth from falsehood just gets distorted.

 

[FatPhil]

Interesting tweet by Anjali. Wondering if these "certain intelligence circles" include the usual suspects. And I wonder if there's something about working in this line of work that can contribute to some of these folks losing their grip on reality, not in a mental health sense, but in the sense that when you're so deeply involved with intelligence and counter-intelligence, your ability to discern truth from falsehood just gets distorted.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1034314/

The Nazis set up a secret base on the dark side of the moon in 1945 where they hide out and plan to return to power in 2018.

I gave it 7/10 on IMDb, but my sense of humour is quite Finnish.

I'm not sure how you can spin "losing their grip on reality" as not pertaining to "mental health". Well, I see how you've done it, I'm just not sure you've got any chance of getting away with it.

 

[Amathia]

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1034314/

The Nazis set up a secret base on the dark side of the moon in 1945 where they hide out and plan to return to power in 2018.

I gave it 7/10 on IMDb, but my sense of humour is quite Finnish.

I'm not sure how you can spin "losing their grip on reality" as not pertaining to "mental health". Well, I see how you've done it, I'm just not sure you've got any chance of getting away with it.

I'm not sure what you mean here. I can only clarify what I meant though.

Some people believe in extraordinary things as a result of mental illness.

Some people believe in equally extraordinary things as a result of having very low epistemic standards.

You can lose your grip on reality due to psychosis, or you can lose your grip on reality due to being fed a steady drip of misinformation and disinformation and having no epistemic scaffolding on which to anchor yourself.

My comment was me wondering out loud if people whose career is in intelligence and counter intelligence may sometimes be at a higher risk of losing their epistemic grip on reality. When you play the information/disinformation game for long enough you might get to a point where you stop trusting perfectly trustworthy sources of information and interpret them as disinfo campaigns, meanwhile you start believing all sorts of ridiculous things like NHIs in the dark side of the moon as somehow credible.

There are different ways one can lose their grip on reality, and not all of those ways involve mental illness.

 

[Mendel]

My comment was me wondering out loud if people whose career is in intelligence and counter intelligence may sometimes be at a higher risk of losing their epistemic grip on reality. When you play the information/disinformation game for long enough you might get to a point where you stop trusting perfectly trustworthy sources of information and interpret them as disinfo campaigns, meanwhile you start believing all sorts of ridiculous things like NHIs in the dark side of the moon as somehow credible.

@Tezcatlipoca mentioned James Jesus Angleton as an example of that.

 

[Charlie Wiser]

Interesting tweet by Anjali. Wondering if these "certain intelligence circles" include the usual suspects. And I wonder if there's something about working in this line of work that can contribute to some of these folks losing their grip on reality, not in a mental health sense, but in the sense that when you're so deeply involved with intelligence and counter-intelligence, your ability to discern truth from falsehood just gets distorted.

A lot of what I see in ufology is finding non-existent patterns in the noise, making connections that aren't real, "coincidences don't exist", etc. Searching for patterns is presumably an intel skill.

 

[LilWabbit]

I'm not sure what you mean here. I can only clarify what I meant though.

Some people believe in extraordinary things as a result of mental illness.

Some people believe in equally extraordinary things as a result of having very low epistemic standards.

You can lose your grip on reality due to psychosis, or you can lose your grip on reality due to being fed a steady drip of misinformation and disinformation and having no epistemic scaffolding on which to anchor yourself.

My comment was me wondering out loud if people whose career is in intelligence and counter intelligence may sometimes be at a higher risk of losing their epistemic grip on reality. When you play the information/disinformation game for long enough you might get to a point where you stop trusting perfectly trustworthy sources of information and interpret them as disinfo campaigns, meanwhile you start believing all sorts of ridiculous things like NHIs in the dark side of the moon as somehow credible.

There are different ways one can lose their grip on reality, and not all of those ways involve mental illness.

Whilst I agree with what you wrote in the above about various reasons to believe in extraordinary things, there's no evidence the ratio of UFO believers amongst the intelligence community is any higher than anywhere else. The seemingly 'high ratio' is an observer error created by media coverage and the ufologist college pushing for that coverage. What seems obvious is that those from the IC who have "come out of the closet" are (a) no longer IC members (which may be indicative of the vast majority being not like them and considering it a career-ending move), and (b) very important for the ufologist cause to highlight as "former intelligence officers" to give their narrative an air of plausibility.

You won't see Knapp or Corbell at any UFO hearings sitting behind Bill the Contracted Plumber who claims to have seen shit at a USAF facility.

P.S. Oh well, as a plumber that's probably precisely what he's seen as I look back at my hasty fecal phraseology.

 

[captancourgette]

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1034314/

The Nazis set up a secret base on the dark side of the moon in 1945 where they hide out and plan to return to power in 2018.

I gave it 7/10 on IMDb, but my sense of humour is quite Finnish.

If you like that, Of course Asylum made a rip off, unfortunately no Udo but does have Gary Busey's son
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2130142 4/10 Well worth it just for the appearance of Hitler