NorCal Dave
Senior Member.
This is a thread for examining the debrief document that was provided to Congress people prior to The House Oversight Committee hearing on UAPs (Unidentified Aerial Phenomena)/UFOs (Unidentified Flying Objects) on July 26. Find it here:https://pdfhost.io/v/gR8lAdgVd_Uap_Timeline_Prepared_By_Another
All external content below is from this PDF unless otherwise noted.
The main thread for the hearings can be found here, though it is over 20 pages as of this writing and I envisioned a place to discuss just the document that I believe was giving to members prior to the hearing.
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/house-oversight-hearing-on-uaps-july-26-2023.13049/
My first thought was how embarrassing it appeared, even with a quick glance. It seems to be a collection of UFO stories arranged in somewhat chronological order. It looks like the congress persons, or their staffers could skim through this thing and get little paraphrased blurbs about everything from Roswell to GOFAST.
There is nothing in the document about who compiled it or what the criteria was for inclusion of the blurbs in it. There is little critical of the blurbs, they are just presented almost as fact. Almost all of it appears to be from material in the public domain.
Each blurb has a source, so a page looks like this:
Note that the sources here on page 112 include the respectable military hardware related publication Janes as well as Jacques Vallee’s book of rumors and here-say, Forbidden Science.
Glancing through the document, I found that the sourcing leans much more towards Vallee’s work and beyond as opposed to something like Janes. Lot’s of fringe books, websites and even reddit are not so much quoted, but paraphrased uncritically.
The reaction is to delve into the related source for a giving blurb for a critical review as I did in post #516 of the main hearing thread. I may yet do that and hopefully others will as well in this thread, but to start I had a different idea.
In post #572 of the main hearing thread @Amathia introduced “The Idiot Ball”, supposedly coined by comedian and actor Hank Azaria, it refers to a character in a TV series doing something dumb or out of character to further the plot:
I thought for an opening post, I’ll carry the “Idiot Ball”. I’m going to take the blurbs offered up in this document at face value, much the way they are presented. If it’s in the document, it’s likely true right?
Using that approach I’ll show how almost everything in Grusch’s testimony is from previous sources. Nearly everything he talks about has already been talked about and isn’t classified, but quite the opposite, is in the public domain.
Not just the generic claims that there is a secret retrieval and engineering program for UFO’s and that there are alien bodies, rather the narrative arch presented by Grusch is the same narrative arch present in these older claims. In particular, Skinwalker Ranch alums Eric Davis and Hal Puthoff seem to be often involved in these stories as I’ll show.
As I’ve been told some of my posts look like a “wall of quotes”, I’m going just summarize the basic claims Grusch makes. If I’m way off base I’m sure I’ll hear about it, but there are numerous interviews and his testimony to listen through.
For this little exercise, I’ll show the source as provided in the debrief, but I’m not going to use them. I’m just using what congress is reading. Some of the sources are links, so they will appear, but again I'm concerned with what congress was presented with here.
Grusch’s basic claim starts with him uncovering hidden SAPs (Special Access Programs) and other secret programs that he learns about but is not able to get access to.
This is from what’s commonly known as the Davis-Wilson memo concerning a supposed meeting between Eric Davie and Admiral Wilson. Wilson is the one that discovered the secret programs:
This find is confirmed by a number of people, including Secretary of Defense William Perry. Note we also have at least cost overruns, if not misappropriation of funds. Not that it would matter as even the SecDef, the DoDs top civilian who reports directly to the president was told to “drop it”.
So, we have secret SAPs dealing with UAPs. These are discovered by the intrepid Wilson, who is read into them a bit, enough to know what they are and what they do, but after requesting to be read in further he is denied and threatened with retaliation.
This is Grusch’s claim almost verbatim, but from 20 years ago.
Grusch claim there are secret UAP programs that are above congressional oversite.
There are various versions of the “black” UAP recovery programs, but they all contain the notion of them operating outside the realm of Congressional oversite and the misappropriation of funds. Here is the “Zodiac” program as described by Hal Puthoff:
Zodiac is important because it involves Puthoff as well as Lou Elizondo:
And Eric Davis:
And yes, in the quote about Elizondo in the official Congressional debrief uses reddit as a source.
Again, we have Puthoff claiming there are secret UAP reverse engineering programs:
Like Grusch, Puthoff tried to get access to these programs, note also the $9B misappropriation of funds angle again:
Again, it’s Puthoff who claims to have knowledge of these secret programs and that he knows more than he is saying. This is a ploy he uses repeatedly to give the illusion he has security clearance he may not in fact have:
And that it was hard to get into:
Davis and Puthoff aren’t the only ones with these stories of black projects:
Note though, that Westwood worked for NIDS, that’s Bigelow’s privately funded Skinwalker Ranch project that pre-dates AASWAP, so Westwood was probably working with Davis and Puthoff.
Grusch claims some of the recovered craft had “pilots”.
Kit Green, via Vallee has one of the alien body stories, but once again it’s Davis and Puthoff that have more information on this:
Green, Davis and Puthoff often emailed each other about recovered UAPs and their occupants:
As for UAPs possibly being interdimensional rather than extraterrestrial as Grusch has suggested, that has been around for a while, but here is a good version of it from Nick Redfern that includes JPL founder Jack Parsons, Allister Crowly and L.Ron Hubbard, because why not:
We could go on, but I’ll just finish up with this one because even though Grusch makes NO mention of the Rothschilds or the Hapsburgs, someone in congress may conclude that they are involved to:
So, nearly ALL the elements of Grusch’s claims, including:
The finding of secret projects,
The misappropriation of funds,
The being read into parts of the programs but denied full clearance,
The possible retaliation for trying to get clearance,
The reverse engineering of UAPs,
The recovered alien bodies,
have been floating around UFOlogical circles for decades, often in nearly the same narrative version. The only thing missing, and that just may be that I missed it in 177 pages, is the threat of bodily harm and murder which Grusch hints at. But that’s been a standard part of popular UFOlogy culture for years.
Importantly, many of the stories originate and are repeated by Puthoff and Davis, both of whom it appears Grusch has had contact with. That they may be some of his sources has been discussed before, but here is many of his claims in the debrief often being provided by these two.
All external content below is from this PDF unless otherwise noted.
The main thread for the hearings can be found here, though it is over 20 pages as of this writing and I envisioned a place to discuss just the document that I believe was giving to members prior to the hearing.
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/house-oversight-hearing-on-uaps-july-26-2023.13049/
My first thought was how embarrassing it appeared, even with a quick glance. It seems to be a collection of UFO stories arranged in somewhat chronological order. It looks like the congress persons, or their staffers could skim through this thing and get little paraphrased blurbs about everything from Roswell to GOFAST.
There is nothing in the document about who compiled it or what the criteria was for inclusion of the blurbs in it. There is little critical of the blurbs, they are just presented almost as fact. Almost all of it appears to be from material in the public domain.
Each blurb has a source, so a page looks like this:
Note that the sources here on page 112 include the respectable military hardware related publication Janes as well as Jacques Vallee’s book of rumors and here-say, Forbidden Science.
Glancing through the document, I found that the sourcing leans much more towards Vallee’s work and beyond as opposed to something like Janes. Lot’s of fringe books, websites and even reddit are not so much quoted, but paraphrased uncritically.
The reaction is to delve into the related source for a giving blurb for a critical review as I did in post #516 of the main hearing thread. I may yet do that and hopefully others will as well in this thread, but to start I had a different idea.
In post #572 of the main hearing thread @Amathia introduced “The Idiot Ball”, supposedly coined by comedian and actor Hank Azaria, it refers to a character in a TV series doing something dumb or out of character to further the plot:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotBallA moment when a normally competent character suddenly becomes incompetent — knowingly or otherwise — which fuels an episode, a plot line, or any number of smaller threads.
Coined by Hank Azaria on Herman's Head: Azaria would ask the writing staff, "Who's carrying the idiot ball this week?" This is generally not a compliment. It's almost as if the character holding the ball is being willfully stupid or obtuse (or impulsive) far beyond what has been established as "natural" for them.
I thought for an opening post, I’ll carry the “Idiot Ball”. I’m going to take the blurbs offered up in this document at face value, much the way they are presented. If it’s in the document, it’s likely true right?
Using that approach I’ll show how almost everything in Grusch’s testimony is from previous sources. Nearly everything he talks about has already been talked about and isn’t classified, but quite the opposite, is in the public domain.
Not just the generic claims that there is a secret retrieval and engineering program for UFO’s and that there are alien bodies, rather the narrative arch presented by Grusch is the same narrative arch present in these older claims. In particular, Skinwalker Ranch alums Eric Davis and Hal Puthoff seem to be often involved in these stories as I’ll show.
As I’ve been told some of my posts look like a “wall of quotes”, I’m going just summarize the basic claims Grusch makes. If I’m way off base I’m sure I’ll hear about it, but there are numerous interviews and his testimony to listen through.
For this little exercise, I’ll show the source as provided in the debrief, but I’m not going to use them. I’m just using what congress is reading. Some of the sources are links, so they will appear, but again I'm concerned with what congress was presented with here.
Grusch’s basic claim starts with him uncovering hidden SAPs (Special Access Programs) and other secret programs that he learns about but is not able to get access to.
This is from what’s commonly known as the Davis-Wilson memo concerning a supposed meeting between Eric Davie and Admiral Wilson. Wilson is the one that discovered the secret programs:
pg. 112
(PUBLIC DOMAIN) - 16 October 2002 —EarthTech International employee Dr. Eric Davis, author of several AATIP products years later, allegedly meets with VADM Thomas R. Wilson in a car outside of EG&G Special Projects in Las Vegas. Davis transcribes the interaction where he was told the following:
VADM Wilson found records of a UAP reverse engineering program using technology “not of this Earth,” it was protected by a special agreement between the DOD Special Access Program Oversight Committee (SAPOC)’s Senior Review Group (SRG) and a large defense contractor he would not disclose.
This find is confirmed by a number of people, including Secretary of Defense William Perry. Note we also have at least cost overruns, if not misappropriation of funds. Not that it would matter as even the SecDef, the DoDs top civilian who reports directly to the president was told to “drop it”.
Just like Grusch, once Adm Willson learned about these hidden SAPs, he asked to be read in and was not only denied, but the threat of retaliations was raised:Wilson states Gen. Michael Ward tells him to go to a special projects record group in OUSDAT files not belonging to usual SAP, but rather a group of special legacy holdover programs from before SAP restructuring efforts of the early 1990s. Wilson has this confirmed by OUSDAT officer Paul Kaminski, Director of SAPCO Brig. Gen. Mike Kostelnik and SecDef William J. Perry that the special records group
exists and is UAP related. It is a special subset of waived carve-out SAPs obfuscated in the records by cover SAPs containing false descriptions.
Wilson seemingly narrows down four UAP related SAPs and has these confirmed by Kaminski, Kostelnik and Perry, who tell him he has the correct contractor, only described as an undisclosed aerospace contractor, “one of the top ones in the US with intelligence in its portfolio.” Wilson states Perry wanted an investigation into cost overruns at the programs but was told to drop it by an undisclosed party.
pg. 112-113Wilson next states he meets the SRG twice and asks for formal access to the four SAPs and is denied, and told by a leader in the SRG that if he doesn’t drop the matter, he will get early retirement and lose 1-2 stars. Wilson also states he talks to USDAT Jacques Gansler about the matter, who tells him UFOs are “real,” but alien abductions are not. Gansler also tells Wilson to drop the matter.
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https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6185702-Eric-Davis-meeting-with-Adm-Wilson
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https://isgp-studies.com/afio-members-and-biographies-list
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https://youtu.be
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https://sgp.fas.org/othergov/sapoc.html
So, we have secret SAPs dealing with UAPs. These are discovered by the intrepid Wilson, who is read into them a bit, enough to know what they are and what they do, but after requesting to be read in further he is denied and threatened with retaliation.
This is Grusch’s claim almost verbatim, but from 20 years ago.
Grusch claim there are secret UAP programs that are above congressional oversite.
There are various versions of the “black” UAP recovery programs, but they all contain the notion of them operating outside the realm of Congressional oversite and the misappropriation of funds. Here is the “Zodiac” program as described by Hal Puthoff:
pg. 104
Note: Zodiac is described as a project “able to skirt the military chain of command with impunity, spend money earmarked for other projects, and generally do whatever it damn well pleased, all in the name of UFOs and their importance to National Security.”
(PUBLIC DOMAIN) - 31 July 1999 —
EarthTech and former CIA scientist Hal Puthoff emails former CIA Life Sciences Division analyst Kit Green and his life partner Kristin B Zimmerman about a story published in a UFO magazine by a pseudonym “Greg Halifax” about a UAP crash retrieval personnel member pseudonym “Sedge Masters.”
The story refers to Masters having participated in a UAP crash retrievals group known as “Zodiac ,” of which Puthoff states “we have reason to believe the set of stories are only slightly fictionalized versions of a source’s experiences writing up records for the archives at WPAFB.” Puthoff asks Green if he’s ever heard of Zodiac, “which is supposed to be the true name,” not MJ-12 or Majestic 12.
The Sedge Masters story itself describes the “blackest of American covert operations” that deals directly with UAP, collated from several different sources, and states a UAP management program exists that falls outside of the normal range of program activities and only members of the intelligence community with specific psychological profiles are selected. It states the program was called Zodiac, and
had different subdivisions corresponding with different zodiacal signs, including Aquarius. It states the CIA had control over Zodiac as of the 1980s and between 1947-1980s, Zodiac recovered eleven UAP craft of different sizes and quality, some of which included live occupants of Nordic, small hairy, and tall “grey aliens” and short “grey aliens” appearance. Locations of recoveries listed include New Mexico, off the coast of Denmark and the Midwest.
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Source: https://imgur.com/a/7D5xIGk
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https://richarddolanmembers.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Sedge-Masters.pdf
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https://ufos-scientificresearch.blogspot.com/2019/06/an-alleged-2001-national-institute-for.html
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https://www.johnclarkson.com.au/images/downloads/DrGreen Article.pdf
Zodiac is important because it involves Puthoff as well as Lou Elizondo:
pg. 105Note: In 2021, former AATIP head Lue Elizondo was asked about Zodiac, to which he replied he had come across the name of the organization, but that he could not comment on it further.
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/niagdn/cant
seem to find any information on the secret
And Eric Davis:
pg. 106
(PUBLIC DOMAIN) - 8 May 2000 —
Jacques Vallee states he, Eric Davis and Hal Puthoff discuss an “attorney friend” of a former TRW employee who gathered her testimony that claims she was part of a secret reverse-engineering project called Zodiac.
Eric has compiled his own file but it is not verifiable yet. (Note: That attorney is later suggested to be former Hughes Aircraft counsel Jeffrey W Griffith, and the Zodiac participant is suggested to be Mary Elizabeth Elliot).
https://www.amazon.com/Forbidden-Science-Pacific-Heights-2000-2009/dp/1949501248
pg. 107
(PUBLIC DOMAIN) - 3 March 2001 —Eric Davis tells Jacques Vallee the story of Zodiac, which allegedly involved real people like Dale Graff who ran RV experiments at WPAFB and Jerry Rosenberg
of IDA. There are a reported ten Velobind volume at WPAFB with Roswell data concerning two crashed “manta ray” shaped craft, recovered bodies, foil material and a special study done by TRW. Eric has a file on Zodiac.
https://www.amazon.com/Forbidden-Science-Pacific-Heights-2000-2009/dp/1949501248
And yes, in the quote about Elizondo in the official Congressional debrief uses reddit as a source.
Again, we have Puthoff claiming there are secret UAP reverse engineering programs:
pg. 109(PUBLIC DOMAIN) - 2002 —Author Nick Cook states Hal Puthoff (eventual AATIP scientist, see 25 March 2022) tells him the “evidence is pretty solid” that there are black budget aerospace programs that contravene white world understanding of the laws of physics. Puthoff states the most likely candidate for exotic propulsion is the perturbation of space-time by understanding the link between electromagnetism and gravity.
https://archive.org/details/huntforzeropoint0000cook/page/114/mode/1up
Like Grusch, Puthoff tried to get access to these programs, note also the $9B misappropriation of funds angle again:
pg. 117(PUBLIC DOMAIN) - 10 September 2003 —Bernard Haisch of Lockheed Martin states Hal Puthoff tried the “front door” approach to get into the secret UFO black program he believed existed. Puthoff wrote to a Pete Aldridge and Under Secretary Jacques Ganser but did not get a reply. Haisch believed the program was split into four parts and about 200 people were on the bigot lists. An unnamed individual “The General” was believed to still have access and was retired and working for an oil company when he met Puthoff at the suggestion of John Petersen.
That general is later revealed in a 18 September 2003 entry to be Jack Sheehan, now working for Bechtel in oil exploration. Sheehan states he saw and touched a “craft” but would not reveal more. Sheehan states he uncovered the UFO black project by discovering a $9B discrepancy.
https://www.amazon.com/Forbidden-Science-Pacific-Heights-2000-2009/dp/1949501248
Again, it’s Puthoff who claims to have knowledge of these secret programs and that he knows more than he is saying. This is a ploy he uses repeatedly to give the illusion he has security clearance he may not in fact have:
pg. 117-118(PUBLIC DOMAIN) - 2 October 2003 —Hal Puthoff admits to Jacques Vallee in a car that he wouldn’t tell Vallee everything about the secret black UFO program to protect one critical “deep throat” and in case Vallee is ever polygraphed. Puthoff states that the ATP Group in the 1980s, sponsored by BDM Corp. and led by Col John Alexander, was killed because “there was already another project.” Puthoff states it was “deeply black” and “somebody” didn’t want it exposed or duplicated.
And that it was hard to get into:
pg. 118Puthoff also shows Vallee the VADM Thomas Wilson notes on this date and states they were written by Eric Davis. Puthoff says to “join” the project you have to have something major to contribute. “What are our chances? We don’t even know who the major contractor is,” he says. Vallee believes Wilson may be polygraphed at his next job as President of ATK Missiles because he may have leaked privileged information to Davis. Vallee also states he is told that the program was inside government but under Nixon it was transferred to a private contractor to secure it.
https://www.amazon.com/Forbidden-Science-Pacific-Heights-2000-2009/dp/1949501248
Davis and Puthoff aren’t the only ones with these stories of black projects:
pg. 118(PUBLIC DOMAIN) - 7 August 2004 —Former NIDS contractor Jim Westwood tells Jacques Vallee that Charles Bowsher, former Comptroller General under President Reagan, states he found a “crashed UFO program” during a large audit of classified programs. Bowsher uncovered it in 1984-85, which he called a “bizarre special access program coverup which surely violated every classification, executive order, regulation, and Congressional rule.” Bowsher considered turning it over to the Department of Justice for prosecution, but an unnamed powerful individual in the DOD squashed it. Bowsher said the program had to do with an “exotic, non-Earthly vehicle.”
https://www.amazon.com/Forbidden-Science-Pacific-Heights-2000-2009/dp/1949501248
Note though, that Westwood worked for NIDS, that’s Bigelow’s privately funded Skinwalker Ranch project that pre-dates AASWAP, so Westwood was probably working with Davis and Puthoff.
Grusch claims some of the recovered craft had “pilots”.
Kit Green, via Vallee has one of the alien body stories, but once again it’s Davis and Puthoff that have more information on this:
pg. 110(PUBLIC DOMAIN) - 5 March 2002 —Kit Green writes to Jacques Vallee and tells him he spoke with an Air Force physician, Brig. Gen. Donald Flickinger, MD. Flickinger told Green in 1994 that years earlier he saw “alien autopsy” materials…
Vallee writes this is credible evidence of a secret program with access to biological materials. Days later, Eric Davis says a Lt. Col. Dr. Robert Parvin Williams is alleged to have participated in an “alien dissection”; Puthoff also gives the names Dr.Robert Crowley and Col. John Grime.
https://www.amazon.com/Forbidden-Science-Pacific-Heights-2000-2009/dp/1949501248
Green, Davis and Puthoff often emailed each other about recovered UAPs and their occupants:
pg. 124Note: CIA Office of Scientific and Weapons Intelligence and Life Sciences Division employee Dr. Christopher “Kit” Green worked for General Motors 1985-1999. Green often emailed Dr. Hal Puthoff and Col. John Alexander from a General Motors Co. corporate email address about UAP information, recovered biological materials and recovered UAP craft. Puthoff and Alexander held their own General Motors corporate email addresses despite no public admission of a UAP special project at the company. Did GM perform UAP work officially or unofficially in the 1990s?
https://www.johnclarkson.com.au/images/downloads/DrGreen_Article.pdf
Source: https://imgur.com/a/7D5xIGk
As for UAPs possibly being interdimensional rather than extraterrestrial as Grusch has suggested, that has been around for a while, but here is a good version of it from Nick Redfern that includes JPL founder Jack Parsons, Allister Crowly and L.Ron Hubbard, because why not:
pg. 136Duke claims the group established the belief that UAP are interdimensional and demonic when the FBI, AFOSI and other agencies began investigating physicist Jack Parsons for his links to Aleister Crowley and L. Ron Hubbard, and Parsons’ allegiance to the United States. Parsons was a principal founder of the NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory and the Aerojet Engineering Corporation, and led the California branch of the Thelemite Ordo Templi Orientis (OTO) in the 1940s https://www.amazon.com/EVENTS-Secret-Government-Demonic-Afterlife-ebook/dp/B004URR YPS/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=nick+redfern+final+events&qid=1663897483&sr=8-1
We could go on, but I’ll just finish up with this one because even though Grusch makes NO mention of the Rothschilds or the Hapsburgs, someone in congress may conclude that they are involved to:
pg. 119(PUBLIC DOMAIN) - August 2004 —Alleged US Army/DIA official John Maynard states Atlantic Research Corporation is deeply involved in the UAP matter. TRW, Johnson Controls and Honeywell are mentioned as well that allegedly receive money to work on highly compartmentalized waived unacknowledged Special Access Programs where only four people knew what was happening. Maynard claims some UAP information is controlled by three families: the Rockefellers, the Rothschilds and the Hapsburgs. CSETI (see 13 February 2009) was partially funded by Laurance Rockefeller.
https://siriusdisclosure.com/cseti-papers/the-unacknowledged-threat/
http://www.doe.carleton.ca/~nagui/Appnotes/AttachToMail/PDF/Maynard Interview.PDF
https://ia803008.us.archive.org/4/items/HiddenTruthForbiddenKnowledgeStevenM.Greer/Hidden
%20Truth%20Forbidden%20Knowledge%20Steven%20M.%20Greer.pdf (p92)
So, nearly ALL the elements of Grusch’s claims, including:
The finding of secret projects,
The misappropriation of funds,
The being read into parts of the programs but denied full clearance,
The possible retaliation for trying to get clearance,
The reverse engineering of UAPs,
The recovered alien bodies,
have been floating around UFOlogical circles for decades, often in nearly the same narrative version. The only thing missing, and that just may be that I missed it in 177 pages, is the threat of bodily harm and murder which Grusch hints at. But that’s been a standard part of popular UFOlogy culture for years.
Importantly, many of the stories originate and are repeated by Puthoff and Davis, both of whom it appears Grusch has had contact with. That they may be some of his sources has been discussed before, but here is many of his claims in the debrief often being provided by these two.
