LAX Shooting Conspiracy Theories - Los Angeles Airport - False Flag Theories

[Oxymoron]

I just think it's a possible contributing factor. And a fairly likely one, based on what we know. It's not the cause and more than the lack of mental health care was the cause. It's a contributing factor.

I think though this discussion looses sight of the bigger picture. Sure, AJ's nonsense might cause some disturbed guy to pick a particular target rather than another target, or no target. But it's not really that big an issue in the grand scheme of things. Alex Jone's rhetoric has broader implication in that it distorts the political process by essentially removing people (voters and activists) from having an ability to deal with the real issues of campaign finance and corruption, by making them think there are these vastly more pressing issues of FEMA incarceration, or chemtrails, or some kind of DHS cull in the offering.

That's part of the reason why I debunk. If I can clear away enough bunk, it might make some room for reality.

I have no argument with that Mick. In fact I say good on you for getting up and doing something about it.

But sorry, I feel you went a bit off the rails on this one in trying to blame AJ and even worse... Me . Poor Oxy!!

I'm off before I get in even more trouble.

 

[JRBids]

Now that this has happened, it will probably be a short step to getting the armed agents they want. That wouldn't have gone over too well before, but now that the people are a clear and present danger, it should be a greased chute.

How long have cters been predicting this one? Wasn't that the purpose of Sandy Hook? The Boston Bombing? Heck, only one person was killed at LAX, what makes you think that's the tipping point?

 

[Bemused to Death]

See, this is the type of rhetoric we are talking about. You are just being more subtle about it. But you are basically repeating Alex Jones propaganda. Making it seem like there's going to be some kind of revolution needed in the near future. DHS prepping for war. Painting the DHS essentially as enemy troops.

This stuff is happening. By noting that the DHS is going off the deep end with this rampant militarization I am repeating propaganda?

I haven't said word one about there needing to be a revolution, or being ok with killing anyone, yet you keep ascribing this stuff to me.

As for the painting, I'd say it appears that the DHS has all the brushes. So who is the "enemy" they have canvassed? Why do you think they are ramping up like this?

 

[Mick West]

How long have cters been predicting this one? Wasn't that the purpose of Sandy Hook? The Boston Bombing? Heck, only one person was killed at LAX, what makes you think that's the tipping point?

He was referring arming TSA agents, something that is being considered. I don't think it will happen.

TBH I thought they were already armed.

 

[Mick West]

This stuff is happening. By noting that the DHS is going off the deep end with this rampant militarization I am repeating propaganda?

Yes.

I haven't said word one about there needing to be a revolution, or being ok with killing anyone, yet you keep ascribing this stuff to me.

As for the painting, I'd say it appears that the DHS has all the brushes. So who is the "enemy" they have canvassed? Why do you think they are ramping up like this?

I don't think they are "ramping up". I'm saying that talk about ramping up makes it seem like shit is about to hit the fan, which can give the "patriots" a sense of urgency that might result in inappropriate action.

 

[Bemused to Death]

How long have cters been predicting this one? Wasn't that the purpose of Sandy Hook? The Boston Bombing? Heck, only one person was killed at LAX, what makes you think that's the tipping point?

You lost me. I only said that with the LAX shooting they will probably get the armed agents they want as per the article I cited.

 

[Bemused to Death]

Yes.



I don't think they are "ramping up". I'm saying that talk about ramping up makes it seem like shit is about to hit the fan, which can give the "patriots" a sense of urgency that might result in inappropriate action.

So you don't think there's anything out of the ordinary with all the bullets and rifles and armored vehicles and such? If that isn't "ramping up" what is it and why are they doing it? This can't all be in response to AJ ranting, so what do you think it is about?

 

[AluminumTheory]

What I see on here is people attempting, (very badly), to apportion blame on AJ for someone else's actions and putting up a diatribe of pseudo nonsense as 'evidence'... which it isn't and if I were to put up 'evidence' of such rubbish nature to underpin a CT, I would probably get banned or at least pounced on.

So a guy why hysterically rants about the TSA and casting the most hateful rhetoric imaginable towards their employees can in no way influence someone into taking violent action against them?

It is obvious what they are trying to do. it isn't even in the least subtle.

Terrorist attacks and the people who commit them leave clues behind that would indicate the attacker's rationale behind the attack.
Again, this article is in no way blaming Alex Jones, only that the attacker identified with the patriot movement which is %100 clear as he displays many of the hallmarks of a domestic terrorist or so called 'patriot'.
Such examples would include:

• Attacking government employees or government buildings
• Leaving behind a manifesto expressing his anti-government sentiments.
• Referring to himself as a 'pissed off patriot'
• AR-15 which is the patriot's weapon of choice.

For example: The very first clue in the Boston Bombing was the attacker's weapon of choice which was and IED (Pressure Cooker Bomb) for which the majority of terrorism experts agreed that it was indicative of Islamic Terror. Other clues such as his recent travels and websites that he visited and his choice of reading material establish the fact that he was radicalized by Islam. Now if you recall, it was reported that Tamerlan visited infowars.com at some point and as a consequence, some left wing news organizations began to criticize Alex Jones and Infowars, however even then I pointed out that it probably didn't mean much of anything, and this was because it alone pales in comparison in light of the evidence that supports the contrary.
You see, it's not just about one individual aspect. Attacking a government building or employee does not make a person a domestic terrorist Harboring anti-government sentiments does not make a person a domestic terrorist. Referring to oneself as a pissed off patriot does not make a person a domestic terrorist. Having an AR-15 does not make a person a domestic terrorist. But all of the above does make a person a domestic terrorist.

As for the Alex Jones connection it's to do with the fact that Alex Jones expresses a deep hatred toward the TSA and the probability that the shooter listened to or has listened to Alex Jones at some point.

Maybe he did but do you have sources? And why write a huge speculative, inflammatory article based on half a dozen quoted words which are not even 100 percent validated?

There are numerous articles from various sources using the same quotes. I doubt that somebody just pulled those quotes out of their ass. Feel free to google them if you like, or we can wait until the manifesto is made public.

I think you are deliberately manufacturing 'evidence' to suit your dislike of AJ.

So how am I 'manufacturing' evidence?

What you 'suspect' is neither here nor there.

So what is your opinion then? Is your entire reasoning for not blaming Alex Jones because he didn't explicitly call for the killing of TSA officers? Correct me if I'm wrong here, but if Alex Jones rants and raves about the TSA and how much he hates them, compare them to nazis and tell his audience that they're coming to take over the country, spread paranioa and make claims that the NWO plans to kill 6 billion people through plagues, mind control, nuclear holocaust, FEMA concentration camps and enslave the rest of humanity while hysterically calling for people to take action, obtain a firearm and allude to armed takeover... BUT as long as Alex Jones stops short of explicitly calling for violence towards or the murder of any person or group, he is absolved of all responsibility of any violent actions that his audience may take?

I think that most of us whether conspiracist or skeptic are all so used to Alex Jones rhetoric that we really don't think much of it. But if you can suspend your disbelief for a moment and realise the frightening world that we live in and the horrifying future that he foretells of which will arrive at any moment; would it really be that hard to believe that somebody (perhaps with not much to lose) would do whatever they think they could do to stop it?

 

[JRBids]

That's why people don't usually like fascism coming to their country, because they know what it could lead to.

DO you think facism is coming to the USA and it will lead to filing naked to pits to be shot? Who is bringing fascism in, exactly?

 

[Mick West]

So you don't think there's anything out of the ordinary with all the bullets and rifles and armored vehicles and such? If that isn't "ramping up" what is it and why are they doing it? This can't all be in response to AJ ranting, so what do you think it is about?

Just logistics, and changes in priorities. Not planning for anything.

 

[Bemused to Death]

Just logistics, and changes in priorities. Not planning for anything.

If they aren't planning for anything, why would they change their logistics and priorities? That doesn't follow at all.

And now they have a requirement for armed Protective Security Officer (PSO) services at various locations throughout the states of Minnesota and Wisconsin. With a Top Secret clearance requirement to boot.

https://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=99fcfaba67468c42e81a0edc0df7e5b5&tab=core&_cview=0

Seems like AJ isn't the only one being paranoid if there is no plan for anything.

 

[AluminumTheory]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/lax-suspect-remains-heavily-sedated-guard-20781553

Federal agents are investigating the possible ties of a suspect in the fatal shooting at Los Angeles International Airport to a widely circulated conspiracy theory that the U.S. government is preparing to establish a totalitarian state.

The FBI got a warrant Monday to search the cellphone of alleged gunman Paul Ciancia for materials reflecting his "views on the legitimacy or activities of the United States government, including the existence of a plot to impose a New World Order," according to court documents.

Ciancia, a 23-year-old unemployed motorcycle mechanic, got a ride to LAX on Friday morning with a roommate, walked into the airport and began targeting Transportation Security Administration officers, authorities said.

By the time LAX police officers subdued him with several gunshots, one TSA officer had been killed and two others injured.

Ciancia's family has offered sympathy to the family of slain TSA screener Gerardo I. Hernandez. In a brief statement read by a family attorney in Ciancia's hometown of in Pennsville, N.J., family members also expressed shock at the rampage and hope for the recovery of the surviving victims.

One of those officers, Tony Grigsby, spoke for the first time publicly, saying he was trying to help an elderly man get to safety when the gunman shot him in the right foot. He hobbled with a cane outside his South Los Angeles home, where he fought back tears recalling Hernandez as a wonderful person who will be missed.

"Only now it has hit me that I will never see him again," Grigsby said.

Co-workers, friends and others gathered Monday night for a tribute to Hernandez at a beach near the airport.

"He was loved," Jose Araujo, one of hundreds of people who gathered at Dockweiler State Beach, told KNBC-TV. "He's going to be missed and he's never going to be forgotten."

The other wounded TSA officer has been released from the hospital, the agency said, and the condition of high school teacher Brian Ludmer, who was shot in the calf, was upgraded from fair to good.

Why airport security officers apparently came to personify oppression remained unclear.

The assault rifle used in the attack and a handwritten note found in a bag had TSA inspection stickers on them, according to a law enforcement official briefed on the investigation who wasn't authorized to speak publicly and requested anonymity.

The rant spoke of how TSA searches were a violation of constitutional rights and a vulgar term was used to refer to Janet Napolitano, the former secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, which oversees TSA.

The screed also mentioned the "NWO," an apparent reference to the new world order belief that holds an international cabal of elites is planning to take away the guns and personal freedoms of Americans. Perceived masterminds behind the conspiracy have shifted over several generations, among them bankers, communists and the government itself.

The TSA does not regularly feature as a target of the theory's ire, according to Mark Potok, who has studied extremist groups for the Southern Poverty Law Center. More typically, believers focus on another homeland security agency, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, which according to the theory plans to build camps to detain resisters to the new order, Potok said.

Potok said he has seen no evidence that Ciancia was personally involved in hate groups.

Ciancia remained in critical condition and any court appearance on charges of first-degree murder of a federal officer and committing violence at an international airport will depend on when his doctors say he's ready, FBI spokeswoman Laura Eimiller said.

———

Associated Press writers Greg Risling in Los Angeles and Geoff Mulvihill in Pennsville, N.J., and researcher Rhonda Shafner in New York contributed to this report.

 

[AluminumTheory]

I still don't see much of anything new in the conspiracy world except for the usual crisis actors and drills nonsense. Probably due to the fact that the details surrounding the attack are still limited.
FWIW, I could see this conspiracy going a couple of different ways.
Given that it's been several days and there has been no visual of a single person who is related or acquainted with Ciancia in anyway, I would presume that theories suggesting Paul Ciancia never existed and was just a name they threw in at the last minute to blame the attack on patriots when it was actually a TSA worker who went postal. The fact that it took this long for someone to show their face would give the idea that the government had to find actors to play various roles in the life of a man who doesn't exist. I would expect this theory to emerge if Ciancia doesn't survive his injuries.

If Ciancia survives, I wouldn't be surprised that given his knowledge of conspiracy culture that he might try to play into that by claiming that the NSA/DHS had been monitoring him and that his status as a loner fit their profile for a 'patsy' in a staged attack. He could claim that someone else committed the shooting, but the police arrested him and planted the anti government propaganda on him.

 

[Mick West]

If they aren't planning for anything, why would they change their logistics and priorities? That doesn't follow at all.

And now they have a requirement for armed Protective Security Officer (PSO) services at various locations throughout the states of Minnesota and Wisconsin. With a Top Secret clearance requirement to boot.

https://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=99fcfaba67468c42e81a0edc0df7e5b5&tab=core&_cview=0

Seems like AJ isn't the only one being paranoid if there is no plan for anything.

DHS is a relatively young agency, so there's little past history go on. And times change. I see no indication of planning for a specific known event, just normal contingency planning, and the evolution of a large organization.

It is quite possible that there will be a dirty bomb attack, or a big earthquake, or pandemic. They should plan for it.

AJ is being paranoid.

What do YOU think is going on?

 

[AluminumTheory]

One would assume that a department named "Department of Homeland Security" would be concerned with providing security to American citizens by planning for potential disasters.

 

[AluminumTheory]

Very subtle.......

I wonder why ABC chose to air a clip of that man out of so many other prominent figures in the patriot movement.

Although to be fair, up until this point, I think it's wise for media outlets to leave Alex Jones out of it until they have absolute proof. It could be disastrous in the off chance that they are wrong as it could galvanize his followers.

 

[Steve Funk]

It's always possible that Ciancia had a really bad experience with TSA. I can tell you about one. Family was at a small airport, but they were very understaffed, and security line was more than 45 minutes. We were at risk of missing our flight. There must have been some metallic trim threads in my daughter's sweater that tripped the sensor. A 300 lb. black female agent got rather abusive and bullying toward her when my daughter expressed concern about missing the plane. We made it. Barely. Of course one would have to be really nuts to decide to shoot them.

 

[Representative Press]

Clearly their intent was not just slightly more annoying security procedures. They want to stop US involvement in muslim countries.

If we want conspiracists to understand reality then don't you think we should be as clear as possible as far as the motives for the attacks? using the word "involvement" for what is in fact horrible crimes, atrocities in many cases, doesn't help clarify what this is about, and neglecting to mention the main motive of the motives undermines efforts to set the record straight. I have written about the motives, including the main motive, at length and have documented a dramatic pattern of suppression of the main motive, please see my blog post "focus on the atrocities that America is committing":
This is from the 1997 interview:

REPORTER: Mr. Bin Ladin, you've declared a jihad against the United States. Can you tell us why? And is the jihad directed against the US government or the United States' troops in Arabia? What about US civilians in Arabia or the people of the United States?

BIN LADIN: We declared jihad against the US government, because the US government is unjust, criminal and tyrannical. It has committed acts that are extremely unjust, hideous and criminal whether directly or through its support of the Israeli occupation of the Prophet's Night Travel Land (Palestine). And we believe the US is directly responsible for those who were killed in Palestine, Lebanon and Iraq. The mention of the US reminds us before everything else of those innocent children who were dismembered, their heads and arms cut off in the recent explosion that took place in Qana (in Lebanon). This US government abandoned even humanitarian feelings by these hideous crimes. It transgressed all bounds and behaved in a way not witnessed before by any power or any imperialist power in the world.

"Sheikh Mohammed said that the purpose of the attack on the Twin Towers was to "wake the American people up." Sheikh Mohammed said that if the target would have been strictly military or government, the American people would not focus on the atrocities that America is committing by supporting Israel against the Palestinian people and America's self-serving foreign policy that corrupts Arab governments and leads to further exploitation of the Arab/Muslim peoples."

And this main motive is stated over and over again. Here is what the mastermind of the 1993 attack on the WTC said: "Yousef said he took no thrill from killing American citizens and felt guilty about the civilian deaths he had caused. But his conscience was overridden by his desire to stop the killing of Arabs by Israeli troops." "Yousef said he "would like it to be different," but only terrible violence could force this kind of abrupt political change. He said that he truly believed his actions had been rational and logical in pursuit of a change in U.S. policy toward Israel. He mentioned no other motivation during the flight and no other issue in American foreign policy that concerned him.
http://representativepress.blogspot.com/2013/10/focus-on-atrocities-that-america-is.html

I do think if we hope to get conspiracists grounded in reality, then we need to come clean about the dominating agendas which have pushed discussions of the motives, especially the main motive, out to the margins or excluded it in many cases.

 

[Oxymoron]

DO you think facism is coming to the USA

Everything is a matter of degree or scale. In many peoples view the U.S is already a fascist police state run by banksters, corporations and and some very dodgy government people.

Who is bringing fascism in, exactly?

You know full well who is responsible.... Bush, Cheyne, Obama, banksters, corporations et al.

It is evident in the wars being fought, massive military industrial complex, NSA spying, Banking frauds, market manipulations, draconian measures against free speech and personal liberties

and it will lead to filing naked to pits to be shot?

Who knows but it is possible and is a historical association.

 

[Bemused to Death]

DHS is a relatively young agency, so there's little past history go on. And times change. I see no indication of planning for a specific known event, just normal contingency planning, and the evolution of a large organization.

It is quite possible that there will be a dirty bomb attack, or a big earthquake, or pandemic. They should plan for it.

They should plan for it but aren't? What would you call the myriad contingent plans in all those drills they have been doing if not planning for a specific event of some sort?

AJ is being paranoid.

What do YOU think is going on?

All I know is that there is much evidence of increasing militarization of the police along with increasing surveillance and loss of privacy. Like I said, if AJ is paranoid, he is not alone as the DHS is seemingly just as paranoid. The only difference is they have the superior firepower and means of backing their play.

 

[JRBids]

Everything is a matter of degree or scale. In many peoples view the U.S is already a fascist police state run by banksters, corporations and and some very dodgy government people.

You know full well who is responsible.... Bush, Cheyne, Obama, banksters, corporations et al.

It is evident in the wars being fought, massive military industrial complex, NSA spying, Banking frauds, market manipulations, draconian measures against free speech and personal liberties



Who knows but it is possible and is a historical association.

Sounds like a lot of people with first world problems need to take a reality check. Would suggest those "many people" move to a real fascist police state and see how much bull they can toss around on a public forum before they're locked up.

 

[Oxymoron]

Sounds like a lot of people with first world problems need to take a reality check. Would suggest those "many people" move to a real fascist police state and see how much bull they can toss around on a public forum before they're locked up.

So that's your answer is it?

'If you don't like losing your civil rights and object to illegal wars being fought, massive military industrial complex, NSA spying, Banking frauds, market manipulations, draconian measures against free speech and personal liberties and cavity searches, f... off'.

Or what?

 

[Bemused to Death]

Sounds like a lot of people with first world problems need to take a reality check. Would suggest those "many people" move to a real fascist police state and see how much bull they can toss around on a public forum before they're locked up.

Your point is taken, but all the same, the folks being labeled as extremists and conspiracy nuts are against such a police state devolving here in the US. Rome wasn't built in a day and a nation ostensibly founded on individual liberty cannot be dismantled in a day.

The trends with the ever ramping up of security measures and military hardware doesn't seem to indicate a desire to protect the people as much as protect the government from the people.

 

[dunbar]

What do you think about militarization of law enforcement? Happening? Deliberate? With a purpose? Or just an organic drift, an offshoot legacy of the war on drugs?

Who cares why? It's probably a little of all of the above. And btw, the militarization of the police is not exactly a "conspiracy theory", it's not debunkable. The problem, regardless of why it's happening, is that it is happening and, as history shows, if it is allowed to keep happening it will in all probability, sooner or later, get away from us and take on a life of its own... and then we all got big problems, conspiracy theorist and debunker alike.

 

[Bemused to Death]

So that's your answer is it?

'If you don't like losing your civil rights and object to illegal wars being fought, massive military industrial complex, NSA spying, Banking frauds, market manipulations, draconian measures against free speech and personal liberties and cavity searches, f... off'.

Or what?

Move to North Korea, seemingly.

 

[Oxymoron]

Move to North Korea, seemingly.

Sounds like JR would be better suited there. More to JR's 'taste' apparently.

 

[JRBids]

Sounds like JR would be better suited there. More to JR's 'taste' apparently.

Since you seem to reside in Fantasyland, I'm not surprised it looks that way to you. I also suggest YOU move to North Korea, so you can see that the US is in no way similar.
I think you are doing "soft" trolling, Oxy.

 

[dunbar]

Alex Jone's rhetoric has broader implication in that it distorts the political process by essentially removing people (voters and activists) from having an ability to deal with the real issues of campaign finance and corruption, by making them think there are these vastly more pressing issues of FEMA incarceration, or chemtrails, or some kind of DHS cull in the offering.

I wish Alex Jones did remove his listeners from the political process, they're all free marketeers who believe "income tax is theft" and crack should be legal. Unfortunately not only does AJ get out the vote but he raises significant monies for the Paulbot revolution and others.

 

[Oxymoron]

Since you seem to reside in Fantasyland, I'm not surprised it looks that way to you. I also suggest YOU move to North Korea, so you can see that the US is in no way similar.
I think you are doing "soft" trolling, Oxy.

So

"illegal wars being fought, massive military industrial complex, NSA spying, Banking frauds, market manipulations, draconian measures against free speech and personal liberties"

is all 'fantasy' is it?

No JR, the place for you is North Korea, you'll fit in great there.

I'll stay here and fight for freedom.... 'A friction against the machine'.

Oh, and BTW, it is a complete strawman to suggest that 'the U.S is not a fascist police state because N Korea and some other places are even worse'.

 

[Bemused to Death]

Who cares why? It's probably a little of all of the above. And btw, the militarization of the police is not exactly a "conspiracy theory", it's not debunkable. The problem, regardless of why it's happening, is that it is happening and, as history shows, if it is allowed to keep happening it will in all probability, sooner or later, get away from us and take on a life of its own... and then we all got big problems, conspiracy theorist and debunker alike.

It used to be that the claims towards the ramping up of the militarization were dismissed as paranoid hokum and that it wasn't really happening. Now, with so many verified examples coming to light, it seems to have morphed into, ok, so even if it is happening, it is still nothing to be concerned about.

 

[Mick West]

Oh, and BTW, it is a complete strawman to suggest that 'the U.S is not a fascist police state because N Korea and some other places are even worse'.

That's not a straw man. It's the "not as bad as" fallacy, or the "fallacy of relative privation". But the question here is if some people promote an extreme view of the degree of fascism in the US, which contributes to the paranoid mindset of people like Ciancia.

This extreme view is typified by Alex Jones.

Oxy and BtD lean towards agreeing with Jones on many points. Other people less so. Oxy has agreed AJ is hyperbolic in some points.

Oxy's world view is summed up with "'... losing your civil rights and object to illegal wars being fought, massive military industrial complex, NSA spying, Banking frauds, market manipulations, draconian measures against free speech and personal liberties and cavity searches, ...."

However those are issues that pretty much everyone agrees are issues. Ranting on about those issues is not really helpful, and in most cases is just a straw man argument.

So what's the actual disagreement here? Oxy, where do we disagree exactly?

 

[Bemused to Death]

Come again?

Did I say that somewhere?
Where did you come up with this fantasy? Is that what you actually believe I think? Maybe I can create a topic and debunk that.

I would like to see you or anyone else debunk it. It's put forth as an outlandish idea to be scoffed at out of hand, but it would interesting to see someone demonstrate why it is so off base as opposed to just smearing it with tin-foil.

When placed within the context of the present escalation of surveillance and the militarization of security agencies against the impending economic situation and stoking of divisive factors in society, what is so outlandish about fearing the devolution into a two-tier society backed by state muscle?

 

[Mick West]

what is so outlandish about fearing the devolution into a two-tier society backed by state muscle?

When you put it like that, nothing.

But it's the degree of immediacy of that fear. Like, fearing it's going to happen tomorrow. Fearing every little purchase order from the DHS is a sign of some kind of takeover. Fearing FEMA camps are being set up to house dissidents based on nothing more than Alex Jones saying so. Fearing a manufactured dirty bomb false flag attack. Fearing stranger things, like artificial weather created to control the food supply, or diseases from nano-bots made to reduce the population.

What do you fear will happen, and when?

 

[Bemused to Death]

When you put it like that, nothing.

But it's the degree of immediacy of that fear. Like, fearing it's going to happen tomorrow. Fearing every little purchase order from the DHS is a sign of some kind of takeover. Fearing FEMA camps are being set up to house dissidents based on nothing more than Alex Jones saying so. Fearing a manufactured dirty bomb false flag attack. Fearing stranger things, like artificial weather created to control the food supply, or diseases from nano-bots made to reduce the population.

What do you fear will happen, and when?

I haven't said word one about FEMA camps, so I'd prefer you stop tagging me to AJ and just deal with what I actually do say.

You can minimize things as "every little DHS purchase," but those purchases are happening and they are not being made to deal with terrorists, as that makes no sense tactically or strategically, so the motives behind such purchases are in line with a different scenario altogether.

Your stance appears to be a blanket "nothing to see here" denunciation, yet you don't offer anything substantial to support it. Given the documented ramp up of hardware and surveillance and other draconian measures what is it that you see that those of us who are seemingly concerned about vapors are missing? What can you specifically point to that supports your view that there isn't anything to worry about?

 

[Mick West]

I don't say there's nothing to worry about. One should always worry about creeping fascism.

I just don't see evidence that it's right round the corner. I don't have evidence that it's not, just a lack of evidence that it is.

Although I suppose you could point at things like the recent supreme court decision enshrining the right to right to own a gun, and the legalization of gay marriage and marijuana as evidence that liberties are increasing, not decreasing.

The DHS purchases do not seem at all suspicious to me.

 

[Oxymoron]

That's not a straw man. It's the "not as bad as" fallacy, or the "fallacy of relative privation".

Ok. That does it for me. So long as everyone understands what I was saying.

But the question here is if some people promote an extreme view of the degree of fascism in the US, which contributes to the paranoid mindset of people like Ciancia. This extreme view is typified by Alex Jones.

I have already made myself clear on what I think about this. I think Jones is a reflection of his audience, rather than the other way around. I also think it wrong to blame people like AJ, or who think like AJ, for the actions of someone else. Particularly if the main cause of these beliefs and actions are likely to be found elsewhere... i.e. the fascist actions, (irrespective of exactly how fascist on relative scale they are) of the American Govt or even directly related to the guys personal interactions with the TSA/police.

Oxy and BtD lean towards agreeing with Jones on many points.

I agree with Jones that the wars are illegal and immoral and that we have been lied to about the 'reasons' for going to war and about the way the war is conducted. I strongly disagree with the wars and the way they were conducted but the latter becomes somewhat redundant in certain context.

I also agree that the U.S is 'some way' down the slippery slope of being a police state or that it already qualifies but obviously different people will have different views on that in the same way that everyone has different morals. But the core qualifiers are there in my opinion.

Oxy has agreed AJ is hyperbolic in some points.

Yes, that is my opinion but I do not equate that as a reason to 'blame him for someone else's actions'.

Oxy's world view is summed up with "'... losing your civil rights and object to illegal wars being fought, massive military industrial complex, NSA spying, Banking frauds, market manipulations, draconian measures against free speech and personal liberties and cavity searches, ...."

Pretty much.

However those are issues that pretty much everyone agrees are issues. Ranting on about those issues is not really helpful, and in most cases is just a straw man argument.

They cannot be issues that everyone agrees are wrong or they would not be. People agree with these things and have worked hard to bring them about. Some people on here are even advocating more curtailments and invasions of privacy and person.

So what's the actual disagreement here? Oxy, where do we disagree exactly?

As I see it, we disagree on:

You apparently feel it ok to blame someone else, (AJ (and even me)), for someone else's actions, (Ciancia) but steadfastly refuse to accept the much more likely option that fascistic Govt policy and or personal interactions with an organisation which is largely loathed and ridiculed for it's excesses and violations, could have had anything to do with it. All this based on supposition and 'Oh, he uses the same words as Oxy and AJ, ergo Oxy must have brain washed him to do what he did'.

So yes I take exception to your, (and others), blatant bias. I take your continued avoidance of crediting any blame to the Govt as being an 'apologistic' at best and endorsement at worst, for their actions.

As RP said, when you use words like 'the U.S's involvement in the M.E', that is outright inaccurate and an obfuscation of what they are doing. Say it like it is and stop sanitising it whilst at the same time being hyperbolic about others who criticise it.

I refer again to the Woolwich incident and the statements made as to why they did what they did. It was nothing to do with 'being brainwashed by me or AJ... it was a reaction to western foreign policy.

Why can you not even consider that Ciancia, did what he did as a reaction to U.S internal policy of imposing a militarised police state which he hated... all by himself.

So do you accept that the U.S is either a police state or 'well down that road and getting worse' or do you think... 'oh there is a few excesses but nothing to worry about... they have their reasons and are keeping us safe from the baddies'?

Perhaps it would be good to do a poll similar to 'where are you on the political scale' but changed to 'where is the U.S in terms of fascism and where is it headed and has it overstepped the mark'?

 

[Mick West]

I'm not blaming Jones. I'm saying that his type of rhetoric likely contributed to Ciancia's choice of target.

Sure he might have come up with the idea all by himself after getting an uncomfortable pat-down on his flight to LA. But it just seems vastly more likely that he's a consumer of rhetoric, and the rhetoric shapes his opinion a little bit. Just like RT shapes your opinions a little bit.

 

[Oxymoron]

I'm not blaming Jones. I'm saying that his type of rhetoric likely contributed to Ciancia's choice of target.

Sure he might have come up with the idea all by himself after getting an uncomfortable pat-down on his flight to LA. But it just seems vastly more likely that he's a consumer of rhetoric, and the rhetoric shapes his opinion a little bit. Just like RT shapes your opinions a little bit.

Nobody forms their views in a bubble. We are all exposed to various types of rhetoric and or propaganda. We all evaluate it and come to our own decisions, whatever they may be. There is no wrong or right on such things.

Everyone is exposed to far more Govt propaganda than any other type and social conditioning affects everyone.

 

[Bemused to Death]

I don't say there's nothing to worry about. One should always worry about creeping fascism.

I just don't see evidence that it's right round the corner. I don't have evidence that it's not, just a lack of evidence that it is.

Although I suppose you could point at things like the recent supreme court decision enshrining the right to right to own a gun, and the legalization of gay marriage and marijuana as evidence that liberties are increasing, not decreasing.

The DHS purchases do not seem at all suspicious to me.

One wonders what it would take to see the evidence. Also how can you say it's always good to worry about creeping fascism on the one hand and then dismiss evidence of that creep because it hasn't arrived full-blown or is right around the corner?

If the ever-growing list of riot prep purchases isn't at all suspicious, what would suspicious purchases look like?

Terrorists don't come in waves; angry mobs do. This stuff is decidedly meant for the latter:

http://www.gsnmagazine.com/node/30005?c=law_enforcement_first_responders

Included in that equipment roster, which had to be "Brand Name or Equal," were:

• 111 Centurion CPX2500 Soft Shell Riot Control System upper body and shoulder protection, which must "effectively protect the torso and shoulders from blunt force trauma," the solicitation said.
• 123 Centurion TPX200 thigh/groin protection systems "designed for blunt trauma protection during riot control situations," said the solicitation. The gear "protects the thigh area and has an adjustable and removable groin protector."
• 110 Hatch TS70 Centurion hard shell shin guards, which must provide "substantial protection from flying debris. Non-ballistic weapons, and blows to the leg."
• 189 MaxPro-Police riot helmets, which have a "high impact molded half shell helmet with integral visor and neck protector."

Part of the concern that goes along with this is the greatly under reported story of the food stamp cuts that went into effect on 11/1. With 50 million people depending on them and state food banks already slashed to the bone and unable to make up the difference, it is not a minor issue.

I have no idea when the tipping point will be reached, but what troubles me is that the indicators seem heading in one way far more than another, especially with the endless fomenting the culture wars.

Interesting that you would cite the SC affirmation of the right to own a gun as an increase in liberty.

 

[Cairenn]

Let's look at this from a slightly different perspective. There is a rapist loose in a city. Women take precations to protect theirselves, they buy new door locks, get an alarm system, get a large dog, some may buy a gun, the smart ones that do that will go to the range and learn to use it. These are prudent actions.

When the web is full of folks calling for an armed revolt, it would seem to me that some preperations are reasonable. I believe that some of the purchases on a local level are done with federal grants to 'improve safety'. Dallas used one to buy a fancy helicopter and after having it for 2 or more years and seeing the costs of upkeep and training and the very small chance of really needing it, they sold it and used the money for additions to the swift water rescue locally.

The real problem is FEAR, both from citizens, afraid of others, be it terrorists, gangbangers, mentally ill, the government, immigrants and such and the FEAR that the government has of terrorists, foreign or homegrown, of gangs, of crime rings and of mentally ill folks. It is feeding each other now.

I see a big difference in AJ and a video game. A game announces that it is a GAME, that it is entertainment, just like a movie is. There are some that get sort of confused, like the folks that ask Air Force folks where the 'Stargate' is at Cheyenne Mountain.

On the other hand, AJ claims to be reporting on reality and what is being planned NOW. He does not claim or imply it is fake or entertainment.