Ross Coulthart Shows Patch Claimed of "Reverse Engineering Program at Area 51"

[Mendel]

I wonder if a photo was staged, as a joke, by photographing one of these spheres to look bigger ("two SUVs"). Sticking it on the wall - even in a secure room - just seems a bit blatant.

Leaning Tower of Pisa tourist photo style, two people farther from the camera miming to pick it up. The calibration sphere is certainly seamless and shows nothing on an x-ray!

 

[Mendel]

(Coulthart said he also provided a photo of the super secret reverse engineering team.)

Not quite.

[10:47]He also took a smartphone image of his great-uncle's EG&G engineering group and their insignia patch.

Content from External Source

Remember, the great-uncle talked to the engineer on the alleged reverse engineering team, he never worked on the "egg" himself. And we don't have the image of the team, it might just be a public image off the web.

Source: https://youtu.be/0oVa3xU34Dk?t=647

 

[Charlie Wiser]

Not quite.

[10:47]He also took a smartphone image of his great-uncle's EG&G engineering group and their insignia patch.

Content from External Source

Remember, the great-uncle talked to the engineer on the alleged reverse engineering team, he never worked on the "egg" himself. And we don't have the image of the team, it might just be a public image off the web.

Source: https://youtu.be/0oVa3xU34Dk?t=647

We don't have the photo of the team, but Coulthart says the source has one. Coulthart has supposedly seen that photo and recognized some faces which is why he gave the guy credence. And yes it's no doubt off the web but I don't think Coulthart knows how to do a reverse image search.

 

[Charlie Wiser]

Leaning Tower of Pisa tourist photo style, two people farther from the camera miming to pick it up. The calibration sphere is certainly seamless and shows nothing on an x-ray!

It would be odd if the gt uncle did work on the EG&G radar team yet didn't recognize the sphere in the photo (assuming that part of the story is true). I don't know if his leg was being pulled or if he was pulling his gt nephew's leg. Or of the nephew just bought the patch off ebay himself and made up the whole thing.

 

[deirdre]

It would be odd if the gt uncle did work on the EG&G radar team yet didn't recognize the sphere in the photo (assuming that part of the story is true). I don't know if his leg was being pulled or if he was pulling his gt nephew's leg. Or of the nephew just bought the patch off ebay himself and made up the whole thing.

it depends on what he did. he started off (according to coulthart video above) in the airforce

Article:

It’s critical that Air Force buildings and structures are not only maintained, but remain combat ready. Responsible for coming up with and implementing solutions to complex problems, Civil Engineers keep our facilities and utilities running effectively. From drafting, surveying and planning to explosive ordnance disposal and disaster preparedness, these highly trained engineers provide necessary problem skills and a wide range of expertise to thousands of structures around the world.

Source: https://www.airforce.com/careers/maintenance-and-repair/civil-engineer

then went to work for EG&G (a subcontractor btw i found out of Sandia National Laboratories..who seemed the big radar guys to me

Article:

SANDIA REPORT SAND2014-0882 Unlimited Release Printed February 2014
Supersedes SAND2008-0396 dated January 2008
Reflectors for SAR Performance Testing – second edition
...

Source: https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1204079

and retired as JT4 which is a subsidiary of AECOM who took over EG&G/URS in 2014.

Article:

Our name says it all––we provide joint test, tactics, training and technology (JT4) support to our U.S. Air Force, Space Force and Navy customers at multiple test ranges across the Western United States. Under the Joint Range Technical Services Contract (J-Tech II), our customers entrust us to operate, maintain and sustain the critical range infrastructure necessary to test weapon systems, develop effective tactics and train tomorrow’s Warfighters.

Source: https://www.jt4llc.com/what-we-do/

Article:

The J-Tech II contract provides engineering and technical services to support research, development, test and evaluation, training missions, and related support activities for the 412th Test Wing Edwards, Nevada Test and Training Range (NTTR), Utah Test and Training Range, and China Lake Ranges. We provide expert technical knowledge of flight and ground test and training systems, equipment and facilities to support pre-mission, mission and post-mission requirements in areas including Telemetry Systems, Telecommunication Systems, Signal Collect/Monitoring Analysis, Threat Systems, Computer Systems, Instrumentation Systems, Mission Control/Coordination, Data Analysis/Reports, Time-Space Position Information (TSPI)/Scoring Systems, Test/Training Management, and Sustainment Engineering.

Source: https://www.amentum.com/project/range-support-contracts-cttr-j-tech-ii-rss-ii/

so maybe he just maintained the building stuff? or built things like this


and didnt really know much about the techy techy bits.

looking up Sandia Labs on ebay i find some digital 101001001001 typestuff (and lots of reward coins).


add

 

[jbbaehr]

the military "communications squadrons" do seem to like their lightning bolts

https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_United_States_Air_Force_communications_squadrons

i imagine someone could email on of the MAP guys and see if one of the young workers made one up.

The 69th (iirc) was the original signals squadron - which later became the 318th amongst others.

I’ve pointed out on Twitter (along with Jeff Knox) that the star on the radar background is the symbol of 318th Cyber Operations Group Det 2 and the lightning bolt on a binary background is Det 1

If you read the paper on the MAP group it is all about fingerprinting Wi-Fi signals for Cyber intrusion.

My guess has been that the COG took the HSecurity work and utilise it as part of their arsenal of Cyber warfare. The original MAP group might know nothing of this but it would date the patch 2008-> to present day somewhere.

But it may just be coincidence

The funny thing is David Grusch claimed to work for 318 COG Det 3 … which doesn’t exist. (It was the guess about the patch based on connections to Ross) So if nothing else it highlighted another inconsistency in the story

 

[jbbaehr]

The 69th (iirc) was the original signals squadron - which later became the 318th amongst others.

I’ve pointed out on Twitter (along with Jeff Knox) that the star on the radar background is the symbol of 318th Cyber Operations Group Det 2 and the lightning bolt on a binary background is Det 1

If you read the paper on the MAP group it is all about fingerprinting Wi-Fi signals for Cyber intrusion.

My guess has been that the COG took the HSecurity work and utilise it as part of their arsenal of Cyber warfare. The original MAP group might know nothing of this but it would date the patch 2008-> to present day somewhere.

But it may just be coincidence

The funny thing is David Grusch claimed to work for 318 COG Det 3 … which doesn’t exist. (It was the guess about the patch based on connections to Ross) So if nothing else it highlighted another inconsistency in the story

One other thing I know the EGG guys say the silver ball looks like a radar reflector - to me it looks like a fingerprint - which was the additional link to the MAP project paper which talks about fingerprinting signals

I see the EGG also talk about doing work in Nevada - the 318 do a cyber warfare exercise at Nellis annually so there is probably a big crossover between the groups anyway. I also speculated the patch might be related to the success or otherwise of those exercises

 

[NorCal Dave]

they did relace the calibration sphere though. just in case you didnt notice.

(i cant believe, btw, it took 7 pages for someone...thanks @NorCal Dave ..to tell me about calibration spheres! )

I found out about them from Duke's source a couple of days ago but had to wait. If you look back, I did keep suggesting the patch could be real and could be related to radar, among other things . I was hoping others might start looking into EG&G and their radar operations at Area 51. But Duke worked it out.

I will say, I'll take Duke's word for Merlin's character and knowledge but as this guy said:



"Trust but verify". I'd sure like to see another example of the patch, especially from someone that actually had one officially.

Nevertheless, the whole affair shows that Coulthart isn't much of a journalist when it comes to UFO stories. As I've said on other threads, he already believes in crashed UFOs and aliens, he's just looking for anything that will corroborate that belief.

Does "EG&G radar patch from the test site" (i.e., Groom Lake) have anything to do with reverse engineering (even if not alien tech)?

There are things that happened at Area 51 that can be construed as "reverse engineering" though the term I usually saw was "exploitation". This included a growing fleet of captured Soviet MiG aircraft.

There is a section on Roadrunners International's website about the EG&G Special Projects team at Area 51 that ran the radar installation. @Duke mention the Roadrunners as former Area 51 employees of the government and various contractors. Without getting into their whole history, here is the description of their involvement with projects like HAVE DOUGHNU, HAVE DRILL and others that involved the capture MiGs and the EG&G Special Projects radar team (bold by me):

It was the "other" projects such as the MiG Have Doughnut, Have Drill, and Have Ferry projects that kept the special projects team sequestered from the rest of the Oxcart teams. Project HAVE DOUGHNUT was the exploitation of a Soviet-built MiG-21F-13 (FISHBED E) fighter-interceptor conducted from 23 January to 8 April 1968, the final months of Project OXCART. Projects HAVE DRILL and HAVE FERRY were two Soviet-built MiG-17F (FRESCO Q fighter-interceptors exploited from 27 January to 30 June 1969. The exploitation was performed under the direction of Foreign Technology Division by a team of specialists drawn from throughout the USAF and USN, including the Laboratories at Wright-Patterson AFB, the Air Force Flight Test Center, the Naval Air Test Center, Naval Weapons Center, the Air Tactical Command, and the Special Projects team at Area 51. In addition to tracking the dog fights staged between the various MiG models against virtually every fighter in U.S. service, and against SAC's B-52 Stratofortress and B-58 Hustlers to judge the ability of the bombers' countermeasures systems, they performed radar cross-section and propulsion tests that contributed greatly to improvements in U.S. aerial performance in Vietnam.

Content from External Source

https://roadrunnersinternationale.com/egg.html

In addition, there were captured and mocked up Soviet style radar systems at Area 51 and nearby Tonopah. I saw in an online book that I'll try to find again, that EG&G ran these:

Area 51 also hosted another foreign materiel evaluation program called HAVE GLIB. This involved testing Soviet tracking and missile control radar systems. A complex of actual and replica Soviet-type threat systems began to grow around "Slater Lake", a mile northwest of the main base, along with an acquired Soviet "Barlock" search radar placed at Tonopah Air Force Station. They were arranged to simulate a Soviet-style air defense complex.[36]Area 51 also hosted another foreign materiel evaluation program called HAVE GLIB. This involved testing Soviet tracking and missile control radar systems. A complex of actual and replica Soviet-type threat systems began to grow around "Slater Lake", a mile northwest of the main base, along with an acquired Soviet "Barlock" search radar placed at Tonopah Air Force Station. They were arranged to simulate a Soviet-style air defense complex.[36]

Content from External Source

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_51

Does this constitute "reverse engineering"? Maybe, and I have seen that term used when talking about the Soviet aircraft. The problem in relation to the current patch story is this all happened back in the '60s to early '80s, so up to 40 years before the patch being handed out as claimed in 2000.

That's if we take BillMafia's story at face value, which I see no reason to do. As is often the case though, there may be bits of truth behind the story or bits that were used to concoct the current version.

 

[NorCal Dave]

Something else that might be fun to track down is the coins that lockheedskunk117 also sold to 9***1. From @deirdre post that showed the patch being sold:



The same buyer purchased 5 AREA 51 challenge coins. It would be interesting to see what they looked like.

A challenge coin is a small coin or medallion, bearing an organization's insignia or emblem and carried by the organization's members. Traditionally, they might be given to prove membership when asked and to enhance morale. They are also collected by service members and law enforcement personnel. Historically, challenge coins were presented by unit commanders in recognition of special achievement by a member of the unit. They could also be exchanged in recognition of visits to an organization.[1]

Modern day challenge coins may feature popular culture attributes[2] or organizational values.[3] Modern challenge coins are made in a variety of sizes and are often made using popular culture references, including superheroes and other well-known characters in a way that creates a parody.

Content from External Source

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenge_coin

 

[deirdre]

There is a section on Roadrunners International's website about the EG&G Special Projects team at Area 51 that ran the radar installation.

been looking at Sandia's radar programs..on Wayback machine.. now these are listed as they become unclassified, so not sure the time frame would match up but i assume the projects are/were ongoing.

basically 3-d mapping was the new hot thing. im wondering if those grey cones represent that?

Feb 2002

Article:

Rapid Terrain Visualization (RTV) NEW -- Designed and developed by Sandia National Laboratories for for the Joint Precision Demonstration Project Office of the United States Army (Intelligence, Electronic Warfare & Sensors). This radar provides the ability to generate highly accurate map products in real-time, including digital elevation models (DEMs), orthorectified SAR images, as well as a measure of the data quality. The DEMs can be produced according to the draft standards for DTED Level III or DTED Level IV, though RTV's accuracies exceed those standards. The system is capable of an absolute height accuracy of 1-meter LE90 (90% of the data within the map is within 3 feet of its true position), and the absolute ground position accuracy is 2-meters CE90 (90% of the data within the map are within a 6-foot radius circle in north/east of their true position).

Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20020202231133/http://www.sandia.gov/RADAR/programs.html

a pic linked (this pic is linked under the above 2002 page but it only opens on wayback in 2004.)



went on because they have their own little newspaper and news releases, but i cant figure out which section might have employee stuff. like military and cop sites usually have pics of employee dinners etc. or awards handed out etc. and theres so many links on their wayback pages anyway i like the 3-d mapping idea .

 

[deirdre]

Something else that might be fun to track down is the coins that lockheedskunk117 also sold to 9***1. From @deirdre post that showed the patch being sold:

i just put in fake info and ebay let me in. i can see the full 2 years of sales..just like piebold did.
gonna go look for the MJ autograph now.

no way someone paid 450$ for these things this memorabilia world is crazy!








add i only see 1 coin





edit add: all 5 shown here https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/area-51-groom-lake-black-ops-special-4619621862

the above one has a very similar thing that says its a golf marker??
https://funmarkers.com/products/compass-ball-marker


edit to shrink obnoxiously large photo

 

[deirdre]

hhmmm... these are "last sold" dates





same ticket does have differnt background

 

[Duke]

In response to @NorCal Dave post #285 above:

I agree, and as I alluded to in a previous response to @Charlie Wiser , there is a difference between between "reverse engineering" and "exploitation." The best example of true reverse engineering I'm aware of was that of the interned WW2 US B-29s the Soviets copied to produce their Tu-4 bomber. They manufactured and operated several hundred Tu-4s, and even provided a small number of them to the PRC.

Stalin ordered the Tupolev Design Bureau to reverse engineer the Superfortress in a fashion that made them easier to build for the metric measurement-minded Soviet engineers to comprehend. Imperial measurements used by Boeing were gradually converted into metric units. In the end, it's said the Tu-4 was only 1% heavier overall than a genuine Superfortress. Not bad, considering the Soviet doctrine of simplifying and adding weight.

Content from External Source

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...pycat-that-made-nato-s-blood-boil-181689.html

I remember reading the Tuploev Bureau was so paranoid about following Stalin's order to copy the B-29 they literally reproduced the Boeing logo as used throughout the aircraft!

The exploitation of the Soviet aircraft you mentioned was later undertaken by 4477th Test and Evaluation (T&E) Squadron under the code name "Constant Reg."

Brig. Gen. Hawk Carlisle [1], commander of the 3rd Wing at Elmendorf Air Force Base, Alaska, is a former member of the 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron who remembers the valuable training the unit provided.

"Constant Peg afforded pilots an opportunity to learn how to fight enemy aircraft in a controlled, safe environment, without having to endure the risks of actual air combat," Carlisle said. "Typically a pilot would start with a basic familiarization flight to observe the enemy airplane and study its characteristics, practising one-on-one defensive and offensive maneuvers against it, and finally, experience multi-bogey engagements high over the desert scrubland of the Nellis Air Force Base ranges.

Content from External Source

http://www.4477reaa.com/

Exploration of Russian aircraft at A51 has apparently continued, and includes a well documented case of an Su-27 (Flanker) being test flown against a USAF F-16 back in 2016. (Yes, the "Daily Mirror" isn't the most credible source, but I chose it because of number and quantity of photos in the article.)

The Flanker is rumoured to have been flying from Groom Lake for nearly 20 years, but no-one has ever managed a definitive photograph to prove it does exist. This sequence of photos is the first proof that the Americans are flying this aircraft, which is the premier Air Defence Fighter in use with the Russian and Chinese Air Forces.'

Content from External Source

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4127690/US-Russian-fighter-jets-mock-dogfight-Area-51.html

Just from where/how the US obtained their various Soviet/Russian aircraft over the years is a story in itself. Some were captured by the US and/or its allies, others "gifted" by defectors who flew their aircraft to political asylum, some bought outright from former Soviet client states, and still others obtained in more imaginative ways that are, as I understand it, still classified.

 

[NorCal Dave]

These are the challenge coins that lockheedskunk117 sold to the same guy that bought the patch as found by deirdre. A bit off topic, but goes to credibility I think.

Anything Area51 about them?





As well as the description that likely went with them on eBay:

(5 total) Area 51 Special Programs challenge coins. Very rare. All 100% original and authentic. One of a kind items. Sleep When You're Dead, Quality Is Priceless, See No Hear No, Actual Spinning Compass!!!All 5 coins have been stored inside of plastic sleeves, and are in like-new condition.UPS shipping fully insured and signature required is included with your purchase. Shipping within U.S only. No returns.I have 100% positive Ebay feedback. Buy with complete confidence.

Content from External Source

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/area-51-groom-lake-black-ops-special-4619621862

From Google translate I got:

For the Northrup-Grumman coin:


For the OS and skull coin:


For the last black one behind the bars:


So, a little different than in the description, but I don't speak Latin and the translations may be to litteral. Not sure what the "OS" means, I thought maybe Latin for "Special Operations" if the syntax is reversed like a lot of Spanish, a Latin language.



Or the MO.I.D

 

[deirdre]

Or the MO.I.D

MOTD - Military and Government​

Acronym Finder

Rank Abbr. Meaning. MOTD, Maryland Office of Tourism Development (Baltimore, MD). showing only Military and Government definitions (show ...

Content from External Source

doesnt really go with the pic though, so probably means something else

One of a kind items.

Either he doesnt actually mean what this says, or he had them custom made.
add: not the Northrup-Grumman one. i saw that a few times from other dealers when looking for the patch.

 

[NorCal Dave]

Either he doesnt actually mean what this says, or he had them custom made.

Agreed, they're not going to be one of a kind. The whole point is to give them to people in your group. The name comes from "challenging" someone to produce the coin proving they're in the group or calling out your buddies you know is in the group, but doesn't have his coin with him.

 

[deirdre]

Agreed, they're not going to be one of a kind. The whole point is to give them to people in your group. The name comes from "challenging" someone to produce the coin proving they're in the group or calling out your buddies you know is in the group, but doesn't have his coin with him.

ah. i was wondering about that. thanks

 

[FatPhil]

Emphasising the quoted point in @Duke's prior post about shared symbolism. I particularly like how your example combines the Mogen David and the Schutzstaffel bolts! The Brits must been very confused back then. (Note to readers unfamiliar with my tone - that was pure irony, I'm reinforcing the point that there's a lot of repetition of simple motifs. I'm sure eagles, skulls, and shields or weaponry historical and new are practically innumerable.)

The only thing I think was missing from the list of things that get recycled and mixed in regularly is popular culture references. I'm putting my money on Buggs Bunny being findable on quite a range of patches, for example. The 11001001 totally ticks that box.

 

[John J.]

At this momentous time, I think it only fair to offer you all a patch to commemorate the hearings in Congress.

 

[Mendel]

At this momentous time, I think it only fair to offer you all a patch to commemorate the hearings in Congress.

WTF?
ROFL

Content from External Source

I like the idea that Grusch is impervious to X-rays.

 

[deirdre]

@Charlie Wiser @NorCal Dave

check this

Article:

Since 1997, Sandia radars continue to address critical military problems in all geographic Unified Combatant Commands (COCOMs). Sandia delivers complete solutions, including mission planning and Concept of Operations (CONOPS) development, hardware development, algorithm development, platform integration and Processing, Exploitation and Dissemination (PED). Sandia’s high impact, multimode Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) and Ground Moving Target Indicator (GMTI) systems are reconfigurable for multiple missions and designed for newer "plug and play" systems. As a Federally Funded Research and Development Center (FFRDC), Sandia

...

Source: https://www.sandia.gov/radar/

was googling: "EG&G" The Facility for Antenna and Radar Cross Section (RCS) Measurements (under "featured capabilities" above link) and indeed EGG involved in project. and found revised 2001 DOD certification doc

then another known object was measured and the uncertainty analysis applied [13]

Content from External Source

(just sticking here as it ties everybody and location together in the period)

now im thinking the cones aren't modern [late 90s early 2000] "3-d mapping" capabilities (although that was accomplished round time patch allegedly distributed) but perhaps representing something called an anecoic chamber. Basically an indoor radar cross section testing facility, no calibration spheres required.



My theory still remains that the foreground circles represent "old tech" and the backgrounds on patch represent "modern, new hip tech.

 

[NorCal Dave]

My theory still remains that the foreground circles represent "old tech" and the backgrounds on patch represent "modern, new hip tech.

Hmmmm. Will look into it a bit more tomorrow. That would fit with the guy "Not Telling" on the Dreamland site claiming to have one of the patches and that they are fairly recent.

 

[deirdre]

That would fit with the guy "Not Telling" on the Dreamland site claiming to have one of the patches and that they are fairly recent.

when i say modern im assuming the patch was given in 2000. the chambers were around then.
the uncle allegedly retired in 2014.

 

[Charlie Wiser]

now im thinking the cones aren't modern [late 90s early 2000] "3-d mapping" capabilities (although that was accomplished round time patch allegedly distributed) but perhaps representing something called an anecoic chamber. Basically an indoor radar cross section testing facility, no calibration spheres required.

So they may have had an old one in storage then, to plant in the desert for the money shot.

Coulthart has been describing it as egg-shaped, but in this interview (timestamped) with an Aussie podcaster he calls it bubble-shaped:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsLjB90XFiA&t=6840s

 

[Charlie Wiser]

It occurs to me that if Coulthart's source (whom I've called Bill from his Twitter handle) believes what he's saying is true, maybe his uncle told him at some point that his job was looking for UFOs, and that set Bill's imagination aflame (given the uncle couldn't really say much about his job). Because wasn't the uncle sort of looking for UFOs, in a manner of speaking? Cataloguing radar profiles of various enemy craft is done for the purpose of identifying "UFOs", right?

Having said that, Coulthart said the uncle only worked on human tech, not NHI. This creates a logical inconsistency in the uncle's story - if that patch was for a non-human reverse engineering program, it didn't belong to the uncle because he wasn't working on that program.

 

[deirdre]

with an Aussie podcaster he calls it bubble-shaped:

which is why 4th hand stories cant be trusted. it's the "telephone" effect.

off topic but: when looking up if eg&g worked with anecoic chambers..they actually BUILT flying saucers (EG&G and lockheed etc) when trying to figure out best shapes the russians wouldnt be able to see on radar! (maybe lazar really did see flying saucers in those garages lol! the things you learn smh

but maybe they also had built a suv size sphereish thing.

Article:

the Advanced
Development Projects Division (ADP) of Lockheed Aircraft Corporation
(known more widely as the Skunk Works) in reducing the radar cross
section of various aircraft designs during the period 1956 to 1974.
The work was sponsored by the U. S. Government under the
cognizance of Mr. R. M. BisselL
The ADP activities were supervised by the writer. A number of
consulting groups played important parts in the overall program - such as
Lincoln Laboratories, Scientific Engineering Company, L"lc. (SEI), Pratt
& Whitney Aircraft Corporation, Edgerton, Germeshausen and Grier, Inc.
(EG&G), Westinghouse, General Electric and a number of individuals
from universities and industry.
..
During the perd 1956 through 1960, ADP t.:ndertook many studies
of various aircraft des1gns intended to reduce the radar cross section as
well as to improve the cruising speed, altitude, and range of reconnaissance aircraft. Shape factors lead to consideration of all forms of aircraft
including flying saucers, which fundamentally have a low radar reflection
from low viewing angles.
....


Figures 11 through 18 show a few of the
models tested during this early evaluation at ADP. The net result of our
tests on aircraft shapes leads the writer to conclude that the most desirable
shape for an advanced, high altitude reconnaissance aircraft should have the
following characteristics:
a. A wing of very low thickness......

Source: https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB443/docs/area51_11.PDF

add oh @NorCal Dave ^^^ from the above i guess the chambers werent all that modern in 2000.

 

[deirdre]

if that patch was for a non-human reverse engineering program

maybe Coulthart screwed up that part of the story too?

I find this ufo thing so silly, a bunch of people telling stories. If i told people my grandmother went into woods and found a house with 3 bowls of porridge... etc, would 50% of the world believe me? or believe my grandmother?

 

[Mendel]

maybe Coulthart screwed up that part of the story too?

Can you quote Coulthart saying the patch is for the reverse-engineering unit? Because I don't think he says that on the podcast I linked earlier.

 

[Ann K]

from the above i guess the chambers werent all that modern in 2000.

The Murray Hill anechoic chamber, built in 1947, is the world's oldest wedge-based anechoic chamber. The interior room measures approximately 30 feet high by 28 feet wide by 32 feet deep. The exterior cement and brick walls are about 3 feet thick to reduce outside noise.

Content from External Source

https://www.bell-labs.com/about/history/innovation-stories/anechoic-chamber/

 

[Charlie Wiser]

Can you quote Coulthart saying the patch is for the reverse-engineering unit? Because I don't think he says that on the podcast I linked earlier.

From his talk last weekend:

“There's a really interesting story there and it's quite hilarious. It goes to what this person - very very convincingly on the basis of information he's provided me privately - convinces me this is a patch for a team at Area 51 that are involved in reverse engineering.”

Source (timestamped)

Combine this with his Need To Know podcast description from the senior engineer who told the great uncle about the program - it was for NHI craft including the egg from another planet:

"EG&G group was tasked with trying to reverse engineer an object that was recovered and brought to Area 51 in the 1980s by some CIA folk... The great uncle stated it was absolute proof of a non-human craft... They finally came to the conclusion it was a probe craft sent here from another planet."

Source (timestamped)

If you scroll down on my blog post, I've transcribed everything I've found him saying so far about this egg craft & the patch:
https://threedollarkit.weebly.com/blog/coultharts-egg-shaped-ufo-from-outer-space

 

[Mendel]

From his talk last weekend:

Source (timestamped)

Oh good, it's up!

Source: https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=315&v=JClRunq-NdI&feature=youtu.be

This is a patch for a team at area 51 that are involved in reverse engineering. [...] He was part of a group of ten individuals who worked on terrestrial technology.

Content from External Source

So, Coulthart still doesn't say that this is the UFO reverse engineering team's patch!

The great-uncle's team is measuring and analysing foreign hardware (Russian, Chinese, etc.) to protect the US from their threat. And we know via @Duke that the team with the patch measured the radar cross-sections of that hardware to support electronic warfare. It fits.

Coulthart's phrasing is "involved in reverse engineering", which may just mean they contributed to it as part of their regular duties, which is also something @Duke said:

Reverse engineering would not typically be an effort a dedicated test team would undertake. I suppose in this case it would be possible such a group might be called upon to test the RCS of some adversary systems, but that data would be transferred to the design guys.

Combine this with his Need To Know podcast description from the senior engineer who told the great uncle about the program - it was for NHI craft including the egg from another planet:
Source (timestamped)

Yes—however, that senior engineer wasn't on the great-uncle's team, but all we know is that it's the great-uncle's patch. There's an explicit link missing that Coulthart is goading the UFO into assuming it does, but he himself observes the distinction, placing the great-uncle (and his patch) outside the UFO team.

The narrative goes like this:
senior engineer(sees UFO)

> great-uncle(sees photo, has patch)​

> > lockheedskunk117 aka BillsMafia716(has picture of patch, picture of uncle's EG&G team)​

> > > Ross Coulthart​

It's quite a chain of hearsay, but the patch is never linked to the senior engineer who claimed to be reverse-engineering UFOs.

If you scroll down on my blog post, I've transcribed everything I've found him saying so far about this egg craft & the patch:
https://threedollarkit.weebly.com/blog/coultharts-egg-shaped-ufo-from-outer-space

Useful, thank you!

 

[Mendel]

Source: https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB443/docs/area51_11.PDF

See attached. Excerpts:

Content from External Source

So, some flying saucer mock-ups lying around the base would be expected. They'd be light, as they would in fact not have internals (no propulsion system!) and no openings, and be made to reflect radiation.

 

[cptreynolds]

Nice one! I wonder how quickly

"we have a program that determines radar signatures of flying saucer shapes, even though humans can't make them fly at this time"

turns into someone testifying to congress

"I know of people working on a flying saucer which can only be built by non-human intelligence but is still in US possession".

 

[Mendel]

@Charlie Wiser nice graphic!

Article:

Infographic explaining the symbols on the patch

Source: https://threedollarkit.weebly.com/blog/coultharts-egg-shaped-ufo-from-outer-space

I'm having trouble following the UTF-8 thing.

11001001 If binary, it’s the number 201. If decimal, its UTF-8 translation is a “?” in a black rhombus, indicating an output error.

Content from External Source

If decimal, the number is "11 million 1 thousand and 1", hexadecimal 0xA7DCA9, and does not correspond to a UTF-8 sequence.

Article:

U+FFFD � REPLACEMENT CHARACTER used to replace an unknown, unrecognised, or unrepresentable character

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specials_(Unicode_block)

Hexadecimal FFFD = decimal 65533 = binary 11111111 11111101

 

[MilesCrow]

Binary is not a black rhombus, or to be more clear, it shows as such because it is invalid character so it shows up as a black rhombus. Any number of binary numbers would show a black rhombus if you tried to use them in the same way.

201 is much more logical solution. Maybe it is a number of the unit.

Btw in the forum that was shared here by Duke (Dreamland resort) one of the posters says he has the same patch.

"I have one of those. While I cannot reveal what it really is, I can say with 110% confidence it has nothing to do with "a classified UFO retrieval/reverse engineering program run by EG&G out of A51"

He also says it is about 4-6 years old:
"4-6 years old. Don't recall exactly"


Given that someone from that forum has one, it is likely there is some connection to Area 51 but probably a mundane explanation - like a stealth or radar testing unit.

 

[deirdre]

I'm having trouble following the UTF-8 thing.

i don't think the binary order means anything. i think it is just random. i found a bunch of other binary patches and they all have different number layouts. i'm thinking now it is just random from the patch makers. ???

Spoiler

 

[deirdre]

I'm also wondering if the patch isnt EG&G but rather JT4. JT3. That would have been 2001 (company founded), but they have a position named "COnfiguration Mangement Specialist"

Coulthart mentioned JT4 in the original podcast: "whatever that is"
Coulthart said, reading he email: 5:55 "working as a data configuration specialist"

Source:
Source: https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=315&v=JClRunq-NdI&feature=youtu.be

dont want to link her linked in for privacy:


https://www.jt4llc.com/careers/




edit: hmmm. actually the site history says:
(the story in podcast was he retired in 2014, but great uncle could have mixed up dates. or great nephew forgot dates. He also allegedly said he was poor in april so sold th epathc (but it sold in March and was on the market for quite a while))

Article:

In 2000, the Department of Defense streamlined support for test and training customers by merging the engineering and technical support for several western test and training ranges into one fifteen-year contract, known as the Joint Range Technical Services (J-Tech) Contract. In 2001, JT3, LLC (Joint Test, Tactics and Training) competed for and won the J-Tech Contract.

In 2015, the J-Tech Contract was restructured and re-competed as J-Tech II. Adding a fourth T of technology, JT3 updated and reinvented itself as JT4.

Source: https://www.jt4llc.com/who-we-are/history/

 

[jarlrmai]

I'm also wondering if the patch isnt EG&G but rather JT4. That would have been 2001 (company founded), but they have a position named "COnfiguration Mangement Specialist"

Coulthart mentioned JT4 in the original podcast: "whatever that is"
Coulthart said, reading he email: 5:55 "working as a data configuration specialist"

dont want to link her linked in for privacy:


https://www.jt4llc.com/careers/

This sounds like the roles under the ITIL framework

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITIL

ITIL describes processes, procedures, tasks, and checklists which are neither organization-specific nor technology-specific but can be applied by an organization toward strategy, delivering value, and maintaining a minimum level of competency.

Content from External Source

https://wiki.en.it-processmaps.com/...onfiguration_Management#Configuration_Manager

The Configuration Manager is responsible for maintaining information about Configuration Items required to deliver IT service

Content from External Source

 

[Ichabod]

@Charlie Wiser nice graphic!

Article:

Infographic explaining the symbols on the patch

Source: https://threedollarkit.weebly.com/blog/coultharts-egg-shaped-ufo-from-outer-space

I'm having trouble following the UTF-8 thing.

11001001 If binary, it’s the number 201. If decimal, its UTF-8 translation is a “?” in a black rhombus, indicating an output error.

Content from External Source

If decimal, the number is "11 million 1 thousand and 1", hexadecimal 0xA7DCA9, and does not correspond to a UTF-8 sequence.

Article:

U+FFFD � REPLACEMENT CHARACTER used to replace an unknown, unrecognised, or unrepresentable character

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specials_(Unicode_block)

Hexadecimal FFFD = decimal 65533 = binary 11111111 11111101

The glyph with a question mark is just a generic error symbol. You'd get the same thing, depending on what font you were using, from any invalid UTF sequence. It's a placeholder, which just means 11001001 is not a simple binary->text conversion (at least encoded in UTF-8/16). Unlikely to be binary to ASCII either, as it converts to 201 which is in the extended Latin1 range, an accented capitol E.

It's likely the designer of the patch wanted to include binary as a representation of the data this group collected (Duke's source said it was a radar cross section testing group.) They were probably a Star Trek fan and included the 11001001 sequence as a nod to one of their favorite TV shows. These kind of morale patches often have all kinds of goofy stuff on them.

Most of the rest of this analysis looks good, although it looks like a good deal of the analysis of Ross Coulthart's source material was yoinked from a Reddit post from yesterday without attribution:


Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/15tto5f/starting_from_the_beginning_with_ross_coultharts/

 

[deirdre]

This sounds like the roles under the ITIL framework

and jt4 has other positions on that page https://www.jt4llc.com/careers/ that sound like they could put together a good "10 man team" for whatever radar stuff area 51 needed at that time ???