Phillip Marshall, 9/11 Conspiracy Theorist, Apparent Suicide? Or What?

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JRBids

Senior Member.
Hi Mick.

1. Evidence already destroyed is the crime scene. That's been verified by several sources.

2. The paraffin test can't be done if the bodies themselves have been buried, cremated, or whatever they may have done. This could detect if the dad had fired any gun at all -- which would be part of the defense for the accused (Amendment 6, US Const). He's dead, but on top of that the media is assassinating his character. His kids can't clear his name so it's up to us to try to assure the deceased at least gets a fair media trial. It's a travesty any way you look at it but he deserves to be remembered for what he was, whether a murderer or a victim.

3. There was a box of bullets at the crime scene, not part of an official revelation, but leaked to the press and to Madsen. The kids are to be cremated, according to the mom. Lead does not burn, but it does melt. If the bullets were removed from all of the victims (which we don't know because the coroner is acting as brain dead as the sheriffs) they should still be in the evidence despite their apparent desire for their hearsay to be the only evidence anywhere. But even if the lead melts in the cremation residue, the mass of the lead could tell us if it's even the RIGHT CALIBER. (I'm not shouting at you, I just want to highlight that for anyone passing by. There's no indication the fatal shots were from a 9mm glock -- because this investigation is such a HACK JOB. ;-)

4. Bedding if any. There has been zero mention of bedding or anything else to indicate how the sheriffs came to the conclusion that the kids were alseep when they were shot, point blank, in the temples.

There might be other stuff, but that's the kind of 'evidence' I was talking about.


Amazing how it is only the conspiracy theorists who are not "brain dead". They are the only ones who don't "lie any time their lips move." The authorities are only capable of a "HACK JOB". Clearly conspiracy theorists are all mensa members, it's remarkable that what they are, in reality, are simply armchair quarterbacks.
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
“I was working with the television on in the background when I heard an
unusual noise,” Woods said. “I stopped working and went upstairs, turned
the lights on and looked around. I didn’t hear anything else, so I went
back downstairs. Not too long after that, I heard another strange noise. I
muted the television and listened for a second without hearing anything
else.” http://www.calaverasenterprise.com/n...a4bcf887a.html

>>>>Did anyone think to ask Jeff Woods what time "Late Friday" is?

Are you serious?
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
I think rainbowsally's questions are relatively rational ones for someone who knew him and is therefore experiencing disbelief at someone they knew apparently committing a shocking crime, as most of us would. The questions are not incredibly speculative or inventing wild scenarios, just generally suspicious and needing confirmation.

I don't know to what extent the sheriff is obliged to go out of his way to make sure those questions are answered though, at least at this early stage.
She may be mistaken about the level of incompetence she's claiming, as she's not really privy to the inside details of the investigation, unless I've missed something.
In the long run hopefully enough details will come out to convince her it wasn't a hack job.

There are a lot of conspiracy political agendas hanging on proving this case suspicious, so I can understand your irritation, but she was a friend of the family so it's a little different.
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
I think rainbowsally's questions are relatively rational ones for someone who knew him and is therefore experiencing disbelief at someone they knew apparently committing a shocking crime, as most of us would. The questions are not incredibly speculative or inventing wild scenarios, just generally suspicious and needing confirmation.

I don't know to what extent the sheriff is obliged to go out of his way to make sure those questions are answered though, at least at this early stage.
She may be mistaken about the level of incompetence she's claiming, as she's not really privy to the inside details of the investigation, unless I've missed something.
In the long run hopefully enough details will come out to convince her it wasn't a hack job.

There are a lot of conspiracy political agendas hanging on proving this case suspicious, so I can understand your irritation, but she was a friend of the family so it's a little different.

If she has information she thinks should be useful, then she should go to the appropriate authorities. I understand the frustration when something happens to someone close to you, I have had people close to me die and had unanswered questions about the causes, not being there when they passed, however I did not assume total incompetence on the part of the investigators. As someone else said, they are specifically trained to decode the events that have happened from the evidence. I understand that denial and anger is part of the grief process, but this is a debunking forum, not a mental help forum. I can only point out the same as you, that there are a lot of questions outsiders would like answered in cases like this, but the police are not going to share everything just because you want it to be so (look at the Sandy Hook questions "where are the videos of the BODIES, if we can have one closed circuit video of Lanza SHOOTING CHILDREN we'll believe it!"). The questions asked seem to fit in very well with CT phrasing.
 

xenon

Active Member
I have to confess that I had not heard about Phillip Marshall before reading this thread. I went looking for some information on this subject and found this link to Daniel Hopsicker, who wrote the book "Barry and the Boys". In the article he lays out his views on the suicide of Phillip Marshall.

http://www.madcowprod.com/2013/02/26/dad-kills-kids-and-self-the-philip-marshall-story/

He comes down on the side of it being a murder/suicide.

Some things about Hopsickers "theory":

He starts out assuming that, if Marshall was murdered, it must have been because of his 911 books already released.

"There are 27,386 books about the 9/11 attack currently being sold on Amazon.
The authors of 27,385 of them are still alive, or dead from natural causes..."


It goes downhill from there, and it's too bad, I would have expected more from Hopsicker

"But those selling the notion that Marshall was murdered ignore his book, so embarrassingly obscure that few knew of its existence before his death...

Is Hopsicker trying to associate facts with popularity? Because that would be funny, coming from him.

Here's where Hopsicker lost me:

At last, a real eyewitness

But someone who knew Marshall at this time, his ex-wife, Ann Kallauner, a nurse in Louisiana, offered some clarity. Kallauner was wed to Marshall in 1985 (exactly the time frame when Marshall knew Seal.)

(>>Hopsicker goes on and on for the next TEN "paragraphs" quoting and imagining things about Marshall's ex wife<<)


The rest of this mish mash of conjecture and selective reporting goes on to bring up other *unrelated* questionable events.

But interestingly, while Hopsicker went on for ELEVEN PARAGRAPHS about Marshall's ex- whom he hadn't seen in years (apparently)- he left out the following quotes from the Union Democrat article he linked:

Kallauner said Marshall could be “mean” to her and “had a temper” but she did not see him as violent.

Kallauner said the news reports of how Marshall died and what he did to his own children came as a shock.

“It is (surprising) that he would kill his children,” she said. “I don’t see him doing that without being in an altered state … I pray for him and his children.”


Now why would Hopsicker go on for 11 paragraphs about his ex wife and leave that out, especially when he had plenty of time to write about 3 unrelated other deaths?

Maybe Hopsicker is right. All I want are the facts. Have the gunshot residue reports been released yet? It doesn't seem from reading Hopsickrs piece that he did any digging or googling at all. Readers of this thread know much MUCH more than him about this case.

The least this Hopsicker guy could have done is read beyond a Union Democrat "report" and ask for some hard evidence before making up his mind. He's forever tarnished his reputation with this, if he had one at all.
 

xenon

Active Member
Sheriff's Update: Marshall Investiation (highlighting by poster)
PDF:http://sheriff.co.calaveras.ca.us/Portals/sheriff/Press/2013/Update_Marshall_Investigation.pdf

********************************

Looks like Hopsicker was right. He still could have waited for the evidence. And he still tarnished his "reputation"- again, if he had one.

Anti depressants routinely cause this kind of violence. Every school shooter (except one in KY) has been either on or withdrawing from prescription SSRI antidepressants. They come with a federally mandated warning:
This behavior is fully documented at the US NIH-
US National Institutes of Health:Antidepressants and Violence-problems at the Interface of Medicine & Law
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1564177/

The US Media used to think this might be a problem. Then a few years ago they (*all* of the national media) Stopped talking about it. Why is that?



************************************

The fact that Phillip Marshall was taking antidepressants that apparently caused him to shoot himself and his kids and dog doesn't (or shouldn't) mean his research was worthless.

Hopefully he will be remembered as someone who tried to find the truth. And took some bad drugs along the way. His first wife theorized that he must have been in an "altered state" to do this, and if we are to believe the Sheriff's press release, he was.
RIP Phillip Alex, & Macaila Marshall and the dog
Some of us will still keep trying to find the truth of 911
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
However, he was ALREADY mentally ill, that is why he was being medicated for it. He had been treated for it since 2006.

If you are on medication, you have the warnings. It is UP to you to not mix drugs. I will also tell you this, bupropion does NOT cause this in most patients. I have been on it for at least 10 years and NO suicidal tendencies.

You are ignoring the fact that it appears that he had been actively seeking more pain relievers. That is NOT the action of a totally sane person.

His 'research and opinions' had been clouded by his mental illness and by pain and drugs.
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
Anti depressants routinely cause this kind of violence. Every school shooter (except one in KY) has been either on or withdrawing from prescription SSRI antidepressants.

No they don't ROUTINELY cause this kind of violence. Stop that.
 

JonJson

Active Member
Anti depressants routinely cause this kind of violence. Every school shooter (except one in KY) has been either on or withdrawing from prescription SSRI antidepressants.

Thanks for the additional information. I just wanted to point out that he was not taking an SSRI.
Medically, bupropion serves as a non-tricyclic antidepressant fundamentally different to most commonly prescribed antidepressants such as SSRIs.

You are correct though that antidepressants come with a whole host of risks and that increased rate of suicide is chief among those risks. I am satisfied with the investigation proving no other individuals were involved but remain saddened at the death of his children and himself. Clear evidence to me that altering the chemistry of the brain is very risky indeed.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
Every school shooter had a gun, every one had mental illness, everyone was male. Ten to 20 percent of Americans take antidepressants, so why are school shootings rare? About 20% of women take antidepressants, why aren't they shooting up schools, or churches or the shoe store at the mall?
 
Regarding the recent article: Sheriff details investigation of Marshall murder-suicide found here.
http://www.uniondemocrat.com/News/L...ails-investigation-of-Marshall-murder-suicide

And the sheriff's press release found here.
http://sheriff.co.calaveras.ca.us/Portals/sheriff/Press/2013/Update_Marshall_Investigation.pdf


There are still a couple of problems with the investigation.

1. No bullets for the gun according to a witness posting at the calaveras enterprise.
Find 'tarquin' here (feb 5, 2013).
http://www.calaverasenterprise.com/news/article_71f9b8da-6e27-11e2-99e8-001a4bcf887a.html
Phil was NOT depressed. He did NOT take his life. He did NOT murder his kids. Only a few days ago he said that "I have a gun, but it would be useless if I needed it because I got no bullets for it", (then he laughed!). I knew Phil, and he had everything to live for and he doted over his two beautiful kids.

The sheriff's report says that Marshall bought the handgun and ammo at a Big 5 store, as seen in security video. Has anyone else seen the video? Is this the ONLY photographic evidence the sheriffs have of anything to do with this investigation? (Photos not taken by themselves?)

Has anyone besides the sheriffs seen that video? Has anyone asked to see it?


2. The sheriffs themselves said they would NOT release information regarding his mental health status. They changed their minds. Why?


3. There are (as far as anyone knows) NO photos of the crime scene or any indication how they determined that the Marshall children had been asleep when shot.


4. The crime scene was sanitized twice (destruction of evidence). Does the store footage still exist? Can it still be viewed? If not, why not.


5. How did they determine Marshall had shot any gun at all. Was a paraffin test done on the weapon OR on his hands? (Lack of due dilligence.)

6. Where did he get the oxycodone and morphine? Those aren't lightweight drugs. Were they prescribed or black-market drugs. Did he have a history of narcotics abuse? (Sean, his current wife did. Phillip's history of substance abuse was with alcohol.)

Where are the bullet's that were fired? Was he or was he not shot in the left temple (though he was right handed)? Are you sure you ever vigilant watchdogs of this free country really finished already?

The G forces required to hit the Pentagon at the angles reported would be 11.2. A pilot will pass out at around 11. It took Philip (with 20,000 hours flying time in that kind if aircraft) 4 attempts in a flight simulator to hit the Pentagon -- presumably while not flying high on oxycodone and morphine.

Excerpt from an independent analysis:
----
So lets take an avg speed throughout the dive of 430 knots (7 miles/min). We know a standard rate turn is 2 mins for 360 degrees. So lets say he completed the turn in just under 2 minutes. Since we dont know bank angles or speed. That means he was descending at better than 2500 fpm dropping almost 5000 feet only gaining 30 knots. No problem for guys like you and me, but for Hani? We'll get to him later...

Once this maneuver was completed, without going into a graveyard spiral, he started to pull out of the descent at 2200 feet and accelerated only 30 knots more at full power to 460 knots in a descent from 2200 feet to the pentagon in about a minute (Whats Vmo at sea level for a 757? Flap speed? Since it looks like he may have found the flap handle only accelerating 60 knots from 7000 feet, the from 2200 feet at full power). AA77 crossed the highways, knocking down light poles, entered ground effect, didnt touch the lawn and got a 44 foot high target (Tail height of 757) into a 77 foot target completely, without overshooting or bouncing off the lawn, or spreading any wreckage at 460 knots. With a 33 foot margin for error. Wow, impressive. Takes a real steady hand to pull that off. I know it would take me a few tries to get it so precise, especially entering ground effect at those speeds. Any slight movement will put you off 50 feet very quickly. Im sure we all would agree.
----
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pentagon.html down the page about 75%

The 11.2 G's force was calculated by others. (Find "pentagon 11.2 Gs" on the net)

Or maybe we all need to take a bit of oxycodone and morphine, just to get into gear with the "news" we're being fed.

I don't know any of the Marshall family members. I don't know anyone that does. What I do know is that there are way too many anomalies in this so called investigation and it makes me suspicious of the whole thing, including the oxycodone/morphine cocktail that sounds like a serious enough drug problem to have been evident to his friends, including the county supervisor who lived four doors down.

She had many conversations over the years with him over a cup of coffee. Her name is Merita Callaway. (Mentioned in an article at
http://www.calaverasenterprise.com/news/article_71f9b8da-6e27-11e2-99e8-001a4bcf887a.html down about 15% of the page)

Here's Marshall's twitter page. The lights went out on Jan 31 (though times of death were not even established in the investigation reports and remain confused as to whether it was Thurs night as is suggested by when they quit texting and when they missed school or Sat afternoon when the bodies were discovered, as had been previously preported would be the "official times of death" by the union democrat).

https://twitter.com/thebigbamboozle

I would ask that skeptics keep an equally closed mind to all sides of this issue. Something, in fact a lot of somethings don't add up here.

And to the watchdogs of this free country,

Thanks for trying (I guess),
Rainbow Sally
 

JonJson

Active Member
There are still a couple of problems with the investigation.

1. No bullets for the gun according to a witness posting at the calaveras enterprise.
Find 'tarquin' here (feb 5, 2013).
http://www.calaverasenterprise.com/news/article_71f9b8da-6e27-11e2-99e8-001a4bcf887a.html
Phil was NOT depressed. He did NOT take his life. He did NOT murder his kids. Only a few days ago he said that "I have a gun, but it would be useless if I needed it because I got no bullets for it", (then he laughed!). I knew Phil, and he had everything to live for and he doted over his two beautiful kids.

The sheriff's report says that Marshall bought the handgun and ammo at a Big 5 store, as seen in security video. Has anyone else seen the video? Is this the ONLY photographic evidence the sheriffs have of anything to do with this investigation? (Photos not taken by themselves?)

Has anyone besides the sheriffs seen that video? Has anyone asked to see it?


2. The sheriffs themselves said they would NOT release information regarding his mental health status. They changed their minds. Why?


3. There are (as far as anyone knows) NO photos of the crime scene or any indication how they determined that the Marshall children had been asleep when shot.


4. The crime scene was sanitized twice (destruction of evidence). Does the store footage still exist? Can it still be viewed? If not, why not.


5. How did they determine Marshall had shot any gun at all. Was a paraffin test done on the weapon OR on his hands? (Lack of due dilligence.)

6. Where did he get the oxycodone and morphine? Those aren't lightweight drugs. Were they prescribed or black-market drugs. Did he have a history of narcotics abuse? (Sean, his current wife did. Phillip's history of substance abuse was with alcohol.)

Where are the bullet's that were fired? Was he or was he not shot in the left temple (though he was right handed)? Are you sure you ever vigilant watchdogs of this free country really finished already?

Thanks for trying (I guess),
Rainbow Sally

You are cross posting here so I will focus on your comments about Phillip Marshall.

1. The report says that the gun was purchased in 2011, only the ammunition was purchased at the Big 5 on January 27, 2013. When was the conversation supposed to have taken place where he said he had no bullets? It is possible that this conversation could be true and the report true if the conversation took place before January 27. Do you have some reason to believe that he didn't purchase the ammunition?

2. Is the complaint that they shouldn't have released the information that helps explain the contributing factors to this tragedy or is the complaint that they did this when they said that they wouldn't? Why would more information be a bad thing?

3. No photos of the crime scene are likely to be released at this point, if at any point. They family would rightly object to any sort of release to the general public of any photos of the victims. So what exactly are you hoping to see in the photos?

4. You should contact the store about the video it is the only way you can get an answer to this question.

5. I can't say that the paraffin test was done and you can't say that it wasn't done. I will say that it appears that a fourth person being present was ruled out by the blood splatter analysis. If there is evidence that rules out any one else being there at the time of the shooting why would they perform this test?

6. The drugs were prescription drugs and the investigation said that. He was apparently taking them for chronic back pain.

Two of the bullets were recovered from the pillow and couch cushion beneath the kids the bullets are most likely in an evidence locker. Marshall was shot on the right temple not the left temple.
 
[Edited to correct some formatting probs. -rs]

No they don't ROUTINELY cause this kind of violence. Stop that.

I never knew the guy. It just seemed like the initial investigation was a hack. And the follow up invesitigaion patches some old holes but creates new ones.

First though, one of the old holes not patched in the initial hasty investigation by the expanded investigation that was after questions were raised, is how the kids slept through getting shot.

Using a dB meter they determined that the noise level of firing a similar weapon and round indoors was 5 dB higher than the noise of a refrigerator.

Excerpt from the 'update' around 70% down the page. ----
The neighbor's house sat approximately 50 feet from the Marshall house. Throughout the test, while inside the neighbor's home, the detectives received an average decibel reading of 50 decibels. They also received an average decibel reading of 50 decibels at various points of measurement outside the Marshall home.

A prior control test inside of a closed room with a running refrigerator compressor registered 45 decibels on the decibel meter. At the conclusion of the test the detectives interviewed residents surrounding the Marshall home to inquire whether or not they had heard the gunshots. None of the residents spoken to said that they had heard the shots, nor were they aware that the experiment was taking place.
----

The difference between the sound of a refrigerator and a glock 9 is supposed to be only different by a factor of 5 dB.

For reference 3dB is double the power, and with the inverse square law, 6 db is the difference in sound power level over distances related by a factor of 2. That is, any sound at 20 feet will be 6 db louder at 10 feet.

The report goes on to say that
---- on page 5, near the top
In the test they positioned targets in the exact positions and distance as how Alex and Macaila lay on the couch. During the multiple tests the detectives found that it took an average of a total of two seconds to shoot each victim, demonstrating that it was possible to shoot both children prior to one of them waking up.
----

The two pieces of evidence make sense out of how the kids slept through a refrigerator running, but does this sound like a responsible investigation or a rationalization for the hasty conclusion that Phillip was the shooter?

Other old holes not filled in include the time of death.

There's a discrepency between when the kids quit responding to text messages AND when they missed school (Friday) and the 'official time of death', according to the union democrat was to be Saterday afternoon, when the bodies were found.

How did the Union Democrat learn that the official time of death was to be Saturday?

How did Madsen learn that Phillip was shot in the left temple?

The sheriffs' report says he was shot in the right temple, and the even determined the position the pistol was being held in when the gun was fired.

---- page 3, halfway down
Autopsy results showed that he had a single contact gunshot entry wound to right side of his head, with a muzzle impression on his skin. The impression left by the Glock 9mm gun barrel muzzle established that when he shot himself he held the gun rotated in an inverted (upside down) position. The inverted positioning of the handgun is a natural body/arm posture of someone shooting themselves, and is consistent with him having shot himself.
----

How many people here knew that the correct way to shoot yourself is with the gun inverted?

Well, now we know.

As to the mental illness issue. I know a couple people with bipolar disorder and one who was suicidal. The condition was not hard to detect by her friends. Yet here we see Phillip's twitter page progressing with no changes, even up to the time of their likely deaths.

https://twitter.com/thebigbamboozle


And so it's unfortunate that another old hole in the investigation remains, the sheriffs have been able to determine the way the gun was held when Phillip was shot (by the drug crazed madman himself), they still have been unable to determine the times of death.

Saturday afternoon is when the bodies were found, though they missed school Friday and the kids dropped communication with their friends on Thursday night... the day of Phillips last post at his own twitter page (linked above).

Now here's a big question. Who fed Madsen the story that Phillip was shot in the 'left temple' story, and why.
 
Mick, I was planning to join anyway. This is a great forum.

To All: Are you aware that antidepressants are often prescribed for pain management? More problems with the sheriffs report. Where did he get the oxycodone and morphine that was allegedly found Philip Marshall's blood.

Were they prescription drugs? Did the sheriffs look into his medical records? They said they would investigate this but they also said they would not release the results in the initial press relesases... now they have determined that he was mentally ill and they have released the information, but how do they know?

[Stay tuned for part 3 of the analysis of the sheriffs' report point by point]

All of this investigating has been done after the initial hasty conclusion that 'ruled out someone from outside' having committed all three murders. The evidence is damning, sure enough. Marshall looks like he was loaded to the gills on pain killers and antidepressants.

But wait... Why did the mom trust him with the kids? And why did Ann report that the airline crew had been instructed not to talk to the mom at all on her flight back from Turkey?

Adding to the frustration of getting to the truth of the matter, Ann's comment is no longer available because SantaBarbaraView.com has pulled all of their articles and comments on this matter. Ann's comment used to be here.

http://www.santabarbaraview.com/phillip-marshall-wrote-about-a-conspiracy-was-he-victim-of-one4254252/


--- excerpt about 80% down the page
Ann February 19, 2013 at 4:31 pm # I know the crew who flew his wife home — they were called by the airline and ordered not to speak to her. Why? Very unusual.
--- end excerpt

Ann posted a couple of days before the union democrat interviewed the mom. The interview remains in which the mom also points out Phillip Marshall's mental instability (but doesn't mention drug dependence -- that was the mom's problem, Phillip had an alcohol abuse problem).

But Ann's comment is now gone. But it doesn't matter, as we shall see, if I'm allowed to continue to post here. Because so far we are only looking at the OLD holes in the official theory that remain. We have only barely touched on the new ones (such as a refrigerator making almost as much noise as a glock 9 fired indoors as measured by a dB meter).
 
You are cross posting here so I will focus on your comments about Phillip Marshall.

1. The report says that the gun was purchased in 2011, only the ammunition was purchased at the Big 5 on January 27, 2013. When was the conversation supposed to have taken place where he said he had no bullets? It is possible that this conversation could be true and the report true if the conversation took place before January 27. Do you have some reason to believe that he didn't purchase the ammunition?

2. Is the complaint that they shouldn't have released the information that helps explain the contributing factors to this tragedy or is the complaint that they did this when they said that they wouldn't? Why would more information be a bad thing?

3. No photos of the crime scene are likely to be released at this point, if at any point. They family would rightly object to any sort of release to the general public of any photos of the victims. So what exactly are you hoping to see in the photos?

4. You should contact the store about the video it is the only way you can get an answer to this question.

5. I can't say that the paraffin test was done and you can't say that it wasn't done. I will say that it appears that a fourth person being present was ruled out by the blood splatter analysis. If there is evidence that rules out any one else being there at the time of the shooting why would they perform this test?

6. The drugs were prescription drugs and the investigation said that. He was apparently taking them for chronic back pain.

Two of the bullets were recovered from the pillow and couch cushion beneath the kids the bullets are most likely in an evidence locker. Marshall was shot on the right temple not the left temple.

Good catch, JonJson.

I read it somewhat hastily as I was looking for some specific answers to my own questions.

1. The conversation took place about a week before the incident, so it could have been a coupld of days before he bought the ammo.

re. 2,3,4.

re. or is the complaint that they did this when they said that they wouldn't?

The complaint is about how the hasty conclusion is supported by the evidence after the fact and that the so called 'evidence' is still hearsay and some of it is still utterly unbelievable, and the bodies are no doubt no longer available for evidence.

Discounting the likelihood of fabrication of records if the CIA is actually involved in this, just going by the evidence available, there are still serious questions about the integrity of this investigation.

Why was Phillip Marshall hired back if he had been suspended for bipolar disorder, for example. (Why was custody of the kids even a question and why did the mom leave the kids in his care? What was his reputation around town and is a bipolar disorder EASY to conceal?)

The wording of the sheriff's report suggests that they obtained the records, but does not say where they obtained them. The clinic they got the warrant and records from only stated he had been treated for chronic back pain, for example.

The problem here, is that this flaky wording and ambiguous/prejudicial mental imagery this kind of reporting generates is characteristic of the entire investigation, from times of death to whether or not the fatal gunshot to Marshall himself was in the left or right temple.

Where did Madsen get his feed, and isn't that NSA veteran aware of these kinds of 'forked tongue' tricks, dual conflicting reports designed to generate easily debunked conspiracy theories? I'd think he must be very well aware of this trick indeed.

The sheriffs apparently do have the bullets that were fired AND the box of ammo allegedly used in the shootings. How long will that evidence continue to exist?

Does the ammo missing from the box even match the bullets that were retrieved? I'd also like to hear from a firearms expert as to an opinion regarding the likelihood of that type of ammo penetrating the skull even if fired at point blank, directly into the soft temple area.

In fact this damned investigation has been so flaky practically every piece of hearsay NEEDS to be verified. The conclusion preceeded the investigation. We might forget that as time passes, but the sheriffs have taken almost two months to fine tune their theory with cherry picked details. Details that don't include his time spent as a commercial airline pilot or why his wife was held incommunicado while travelling back from Turkey. (See the switch to fb.me links at marshall's twitter page.)

And I'm very sorry if the family of the victims would be offended by photos of the crime scene. They wouldn't have to be published, but SOMEONE needs to provide checks and balances in this republic.

And the dead guy deserves a defense.

re. 5. We can be very sure that *IF* a paraffin test was done it shows Phillip was NOT the shooter. Follow me here?

re. 6. Antidepressants are also prescribed for back pain. If you have back pain NEVER take antidepressants or you may be accused of being a wack-job if anything ever goes screwy and lazy cops need to pin it on someone quick.
 
PS. And I forgot to mention that though both wives had been interviewed, the first mention of a bipolar disorder is in the sheriff's report. So, unfortunately, EVERYTHING they say needs to be independently verified.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
PS. And I forgot to mention that though both wives had been interviewed, the first mention of a bipolar disorder is in the sheriff's report. So, unfortunately, EVERYTHING they say needs to be independently verified.

But who would you trust to do this, and how would they do it?

You seem to be starting with the assumption that the establishment is covering thing up here. This would mean at the very least that several people in the Sheriff's department are aware that it's being covered up, as well as various people up the chain of command.

So what would you suggest be done?
 
The latest sheriff's report, point by point.

re. Alex's last documented communication was by instant messaging (cell phone) on January 31, 2013 at 10:40 PM. Macaila's last documented communication, via cellular phone, was on January 31,2013 at 10:10 PM. She took a cell phone self-portrait at 10:55 PM. Phillip Marshall and his children were found deceased on February 2,2013 at approximately 3:10 PM.

* Time of death, jan 31 vs. feb 2. Earlier media releases suggested that the time of death was still being determined. Why couldn't they tell by blood settling and rigormortis how long they'd been dead? Was the coroner unable to tell? How competent is the fellow?

re. Parag at the bottom of page 1

*This hearsay balanced by other hearsay stating that Marshall was friendly, had a good sense of humor, and actively involved with the kids and their interests.

re. December 5,2008: Phillip has physical altercation with Erin Chamberlain and is arrested. [* the dispute was over child custody, charges were dropped.] An emergency protection order is issued. [* which anyone can do and for any reason if they cough up the bucks.]

re. Top of page 2.

*All of the events reported are prior to early Jan 2009. That's more than four years before this incident.

re. The Glock handgun was sent to the California Department of Justice crime lab for fingerprint analysis, and is scheduled for DNA and ballistics examination (results pending on the DNA and ballistics).

* Good. But why didn't they report that these tests were going to be done in the initial press releases? Why had they concluded who the shooter was before doing the test? Why are they NOT including a GSR (paraffin) test to determine if Marshall was the shooter? And what exactly do they expect to find from a DNA test, for goodness sakes?? But at least they're being thorough... uh... yeah, at least they're being thorough.

re. Subject Phillip Randolph Marshall could not be eliminated as the source of these two patent impressions

* A minor point to be sure, but if the prints were messed up enough nobody could be elimintated, including Phillip Randolph Marshall, but that does not prove that it was even his finger prints, which is consistent with the faulty investigation from the beginning. Ok. So it might have been him. But how did they determine that it definitively WAS him, even before doing the fingerprint analysis? Remember now, who did the fingerprint analysis. And remember also that the bodies were found on Jan 2, and the first report was issued on Jan 3. http://sheriff.co.calaveras.ca.us/Po...er-Suicide.pdf

re: A handwritten note was found inside of a spiral binder noting the debt amount and a handwritten comment stating, "Debt Kill." The binder was found lying next to a laptop computer that was identified as belonging to Phillip Marshall.

* What page was this found on... We don't know. We might need to know what other stuff was on that page, and if the dates of the context is consistent with the time of deaths. Were the words aligned left to right, up and down, were they close to each other, were the letters the same size? May we see a photo of at least that much?

re: confiscated computers

* Why was the confiscation of the computers not mentioned in the initial reports. Or any of their famously inaccurate 'leakes', either for that matter. Why wasn't the planned ballistics test mentioned either. In fact when were these tests ordered. Were the tests even requested at the DoJ before the conclusion drawn about Marshall being the shooter?

[We'll take a break after this next one. -rs]


re: Autopsy results showed that he had a single contact gunshot entry wound to right side of his head, with a muzzle impression on his skin.

* And now we see the extraordinary competence of the coroner noticing the "muzzle impression on his skin", which we'll see again shortly, though he was unable to determine the time of death as being any time before the bodies were found.

THAT'S THE FIRST HALF OF IT!

Stay tuned for more. - Rainbow Sally
 
Hi Mick.

But who would you trust to do this, and how would they do it?

You seem to be starting with the assumption that the establishment is covering thing up here. This would mean at the very least that several people in the Sheriff's department are aware that it's being covered up, as well as various people up the chain of command.

So what would you suggest be done?

For starters, we should not accept 'official explanations' without some kind of review. Checks and balances is what this country is about. Secondly, the guy, even though he's dead has a constitutional right to a defense. I'm currently posting some of the problems with the accusations by the sheriffs department, and as to possible motives for fabricating this frame up, one need only look as far as Marshall's previous involvement in the CIA drug smuggling.

I think that's common knowledge, so I won't belabor that particular point.

So we have a possible motive for the sheriffs to lie and we have an investigation that stinks to high heaven and we have the 'accused' Phillip Marshal who is denied his defense on account of being dead.

:)

Does that work?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
* And now we see the extraordinary competence of the coroner noticing the "muzzle impression on his skin", which we'll see again shortly, though he was unable to determine the time of death as being any time before the bodies were found.

I think you are going off into entirely unfounded speculative territory. You need to back up your implied claims with some evidence.

A) Why is a muzzle impression hard to notice?
B) With what accuracy would you expect the coroner be able to determine the time of death, and why?

Please provide references to back up your answers.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Hi Mick.



For starters, we should not accept 'official explanations' without some kind of review. Checks and balances is what this country is about. Secondly, the guy, even though he's dead has a constitutional right to a defense. I'm currently posting some of the problems with the accusations by the sheriffs department, and as to possible motives for fabricating this frame up, one need only look as far as Marshall's previous involvement in the CIA drug smuggling.

I think that's common knowledge, so I won't belabor that particular point.

So we have a possible motive for the sheriffs to lie and we have an investigation that stinks to high heaven and we have the 'accused' Phillip Marshal who is denied his defense on account of being dead.

:)

Does that work?

So the Sheriff's department is covering up for a CIA assasination? How does that even work?

And you want an official review body to review all official explanations?
 
You must be naive if you don't know that the cops do cover for the CIA. This is really old news, going back to Iran-Contra, so there's ample reason to wonder.

But we're getting off track here. The point is that the investigation is unbelievably stupid, it's an attempt to rationalize, to retroactively validate those who concluded that Marshall was definitively the murderer before the tests which have been done in the two months since the incident and with the most important of the tests (the paraffin test) not even being done... well.

Just try to keep an equally closed mind to all sides of the issue. :) If Marshall was a drug crazed madman, what's wrong with the cops?

The question is now to you. What's wrong with the cops.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Why would you do a paraffin test if "The manner of the contact gunshot combined with the lack of voids and blood disruptions confirmed that a fourth person was not present as the shooter."?
 
Why would you do a paraffin test if "The manner of the contact gunshot combined with the lack of voids and blood disruptions confirmed that a fourth person was not present as the shooter."?

I noticed that I missed a couple questions from you and you missed one from me. I'll take this one first, then it's probably your turn soon. Ok? :)

The blood spatter would be in the direction the gun was fired. That's incredibly inane. Even folks not familiar with fire arms would not point the gun back toward themselves and fire at a target between themselves and the gun.

And so we're back to my one question to you. If Phillip Marshall was a drug crazed madman, what's the cops' excuse?

[I'll try to pick up the stragglers next]
 
I think you are going off into entirely unfounded speculative territory. You need to back up your implied claims with some evidence.

A) Why is a muzzle impression hard to notice?
B) With what accuracy would you expect the coroner be able to determine the time of death, and why?

Please provide references to back up your answers.

I am not a forensics expert. I'm a mere citizen without a great deal of knowledge about guns, dead bodies or anything like that, but even I can detect an error such as this one. Assuming you know that the kids hadn't been heard from since around 10 pm Thursday night and they missed school on Friday... what do you make of this?

On Feb 6 the Union Democrat reports:
---- excerpts
The time of the discovery, 3 p.m. Saturday, will be listed as the official time of death.
---- end excerpts
http://www.uniondemocrat.com/News/Local-News/More-murder-suicide-details


So the "official" time of death is 3. pm the following Saturday (specified as Feb 2, which is not clear from the sheriffs' report was a Saturday afternoon when friends of the kids came to check on them.)

Now a second question to you. What do you make of that?
 

RolandD

Active Member
The blood spatter would be in the direction the gun was fired. That's incredibly inane.

I'm afraid you will need to provide evidence of this fact. Blood splatter, from gun shot wounds, travels in all directions from the point of impact and from the point of exit, if there is one.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I noticed that I missed a couple questions from you and you missed one from me. I'll take this one first, then it's probably your turn soon. Ok? :)

The blood spatter would be in the direction the gun was fired. That's incredibly inane. Even folks not familiar with fire arms would not point the gun back toward themselves and fire at a target between themselves and the gun.

Blood spatter from the entry wound is in the opposite direction. It's called back spatter. It's generally smaller than the forward spatter.
http://www.crimescene-forensics.com/Blood_Stains.html

And so we're back to my one question to you. If Phillip Marshall was a drug crazed madman, what's the cops' excuse?

I don't understand the question. Excuse for what?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I am not a forensics expert. I'm a mere citizen without a great deal of knowledge about guns, dead bodies or anything like that, but even I can detect an error such as this one. Assuming you know that the kids hadn't been heard from since around 10 pm Thursday night and they missed school on Friday... what do you make of this?

On Feb 6 the Union Democrat reports:
---- excerpts
The time of the discovery, 3 p.m. Saturday, will be listed as the official time of death.
---- end excerpts
http://www.uniondemocrat.com/News/Local-News/More-murder-suicide-details


So the "official" time of death is 3. pm the following Saturday (specified as Feb 2, which is not clear from the sheriffs' report was a Saturday afternoon when friends of the kids came to check on them.)

Now a second question to you. What do you make of that?

I make that legally an official time of death has to be listed. Since they don't know exactly when it was, they put down the time of the discovery of the body. This is for legal purposes - i.e. what date to list on the death certificate. Quite obviously everyone involved knows it happened some time before that. But you can't put a range on a death certificate.

What is the error?
 
I'm afraid you will need to provide evidence of this fact. Blood splatter, from gun shot wounds, travels in all directions from the point of impact and from the point of exit, if there is one.

I'm afraid you'll need to provide common sense that could indicate whether or not another person was present from the splatter coming back from the direction of the target.

I'll play counsel for the defense. My client is Phillip Marshall. My client has the presumption of innocence until proven guilty and has compulsory process to obtain witnesses for his defense, which witnesses will include a reasonably performed investigation.
 
I make that legally an official time of death has to be listed. Since they don't know exactly when it was, they put down the time of the discovery of the body. This is for legal purposes - i.e. what date to list on the death certificate. Quite obviously everyone involved knows it happened some time before that. But you can't put a range on a death certificate.

What is the error?

The error is that it's a very sloppy investigation. The "official" time of death is (according to other evidence) off by two whole days.

And NO, the time of death doesn't need to be listed before it's been determined. Yet there are two takes on the time of death. One is "being evaluated" according to the two first press releases and the other "is official", which was printed up before the time had been determined.

Again, what do you make of that?
 
Ready for part 2? We only got halfway through the the sheriffs' report so far and nobody has raised questions about my comments on:

* The hearsay included in the Sheriff's report none of which was excupatory and none of which was more recent than 4 years before the incident,

* The attack on Sean's sister Erin that didn't mention that the charges were dropped.

* The conclusion that was reached before the rest of the tests have been obtained from the DoJ, or the conclusion that was drawn before ANY tests were done, including the finger print tests which have been returned -- inconclusive.

* The delay in mentioning that the computers were confiscated by the sheriffs.

The arguments were based on

A time of death (which was absurd) and

B blood spatter (back spatter that was used to determine there was no other shooter -- also absurd), and

C assumption that a muzzle impression should be evident two days later if the weapon was not pushed HARD into the head of the victim -- which is potentially believable, but very unlikely)

And we can assume you've taken your best shot at my arguments so far.

May I proceed to the second half of my analysis of the sheriff's report?
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
.... a reasonably performed investigation.

What was not reasonably performed? It seems you are unreasonably debating every single thing they say, more than that there are any gaping holes in the investigation.
You are determined to assume they are lying about everything. That's not reasonable. There was a lot of information in that report to support the story as it's been presented. What is your evidence for assuming they are just fabricating everything?
He was not shot in the left temple, so why don't you just assume the left temple thing, from one person, was wrong in the first place, rather than multiple people fabricated the right temple evidence?
They determined that the kids could have been shot within two seconds of each other. The kids had alcohol and anti-histamines in their blood. They were shot on the couch from the blood and bullets evidence. So the idea they could have been shot before waking up is reasonable, saying it's impossible is not.
I thought your questions prior to the report were fair enough, but now I can't see that your suspicions are supported by anything other than ideology.
Can you give a good case for the need of a second body to investigate the findings of the first? Why not asssume they did their job?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I'm afraid you'll need to provide common sense that could indicate whether or not another person was present from the splatter coming back from the direction of the target.

I'll play counsel for the defense. My client is Phillip Marshall. My client has the presumption of innocence until proven guilty and has compulsory process to obtain witnesses for his defense, which witnesses will include a reasonably performed investigation.

A "void" in blood spatter analysis is a region that has no blood. If someone is present, and shot him with an upside down gun held to his temple, then there would be a void where the blood hit him and not the floor. No void = no person. Common sense.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
The arguments were based on

A time of death (which was absurd) and

B blood spatter (back spatter that was used to determine there was no other shooter -- also absurd), and

C assumption that a muzzle impression should be evident two days later if the weapon was not pushed HARD into the head of the victim -- which is potentially believable, but very unlikely)

And we can assume you've taken your best shot at my arguments so far.

May I proceed to the second half of my analysis of the sheriff's report?

If there's proof that there was no other shooter in the room, then there's no real need to get into the hearsay. He shot himself.

A - what is absurd about the time of death?

B - what is absurd about the blood spatter?

C - Muzzle impressions are cause by the violet impression of the skin back against the barrel by the expanding gases before and after the bullet impacts, the skin is broken, powder is infused, no pressure is needed. The impression lasts after death. See here (warning, contains actual gunshot photos):
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0379073802001172

Close up image (Warning: gore)
https://www.metabunk.org/sk/skitched-20130401-143507.jpg

Hence it would absolutely still be there 2 days later, and provide proof that the gun was against his head, hence the necessary proximity of another shooter, and hence voids.
 
Last edited:

JeffreyNotGeoffrey

Active Member
This rumor mongering against the police there is shameful. Unless you have real hard evidence instead of speculation leave this whole thing alone. Crimes and especially crimes of passion seem senseless to the survivors. The professionals are doing their work and it simply boggles the mind to think of the breadth and scope of a conspiracy to make this happen. Additionally are there not far easier and less messy and convoluted ways to silence someone...

Also it seems like there is no way to convince these deniers. Additionally why again do the police have to report every detail of an ongoing investigation to Joe Blow. Perhaps (playing Devil's Advocate) if there was a murderer on the loose why would the police be advertising that they are on to him/her/them... Would that not make the suspect flee or go to ground?

I only post this because I nearly got in trouble with the law and lost my job because of a person with an overactive imagination tried to frame me for a nonexistent crime. She had no proof and only her scared misperceptions. Thankfully the LVMPD (who are not the greatest law agency and were under investigation by the DoJ for overzealous use of lethal force) and my employer's employer's employer (that is not a typo) saw her as the hysterical security mom she is.
 
A "void" in blood spatter analysis is a region that has no blood. If someone is present, and shot him with an upside down gun held to his temple, then there would be a void where the blood hit him and not the floor. No void = no person. Common sense.

So you are implying that there must be enough splatter to cast a statistically significant void.

Let me conceded the point for the moment. Let's move along to part 2.
 
The sheriff's report point by point (part 2).

re. The impression left by the Glock 9mm gun barrel muzzle established that when he shot himself he held the gun rotated in an inverted (upside down) position.

* That's quite a bit of detail determined from a round barrel pushed into the head. The barrel of most hand guns is round. The barrel of a Glock Model 19 is round.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ogygunglock.jpg/220px-Criminologygunglock.jpg

Behind the round barrel is the assymetric top and bottom sections. What would make a man push the gun so hard into his own head to leave an impression of that part of the weapon?

re. The inverted positioning of the handgun is a natural body/arm posture of someone shooting themselves, and is consistent with him having shot himself.

* Most people don't know that. Most would hold it handle down. Most movies show it handle down.

re. Marshall was found lying on his back in the living room behind the sectional couch. The gun was located under his right side midsection.

* Questions as to how the gun could have ended up behind his back have been raised, but if he had large fingers and the finger was caught in the trigger guard, it's possible it could have gotten flung down before he himself hit the floor.

re. The manner of the contact gunshot combined with the lack of voids and blood disruptions confirmed that a fourth person was not present as the shooter.

* No, it confirmed only that nobody else was in the line of fire. Assuming the back splatter is the low velocity spatter, there would not be enough blood to 'cast an image' of another person, even if someone else were present. But even more problematic is the apparent fact that there is no photo evidence to even support this claim. It's 'hearsay'.

re. They found 43 unfired cartridges in the box. One unfired cartridge was found lying on the laundry room floor. A total of four rounds were fired during the murder-suicide. One live round was found loaded in the chamber of the gun. The gun magazine was empty.

* The Glock holds 17 rounds, max. 7 were missing from the box, 4 were fired, and one was found in the laundry room. Two bullets are unaccounted for. The crime scene has essentially been destroyed. What were the other two rounds fired at, and when.

re. A handwritten note was [inside the safe] left on the marijuana medical recommendation card that read "Hi Sean!"

* He kept his gun and ammo in the safe, why? (He had kids.) He left a note to Sean on the marijuana. Why? (He had caught her stealing drugs before, and took video of her doing it, after which she was arrested for burglary, breaking and entering, and possession of a controlled substance.)

re. Witnesses stated that it was common practice for Macaila and Alex to sleep on the couch rather than in their beds.

* Was it common on week nights? That's the significance of the time of death issue which the sheriffs have/have not (take your pick) determined.

re. The results showed that Macaila had a .05 % blood alcohol content and .32 mg/L of diphenhydramine (an over the counter antihistamine/sleep aid). Alex had a blood alcohol content of .03 %.

* Had Macaila and Alex been drinking? No alcohol was found in Philip's blood.

re. Phillip Marshal's blood sample contained .08 mg/L hydrocodone (pain reliever/narcotic), .02 mg/L morphine (pain reliever/narcotic), and .80 mg/L hydroxybupropion (anti-depressant).

* All of the above were legal prescription drugs, which he evidently had obtained legally, according to the medical records the sheriffs obtained.

Note: There was no alcohol in his blood stream. Phillip had had a drinking problem which he evidently kicked. But the kids may have had a drinking problem. More below.

re. Alcoholic beverages, including a bottle of whiskey and an open l2-pack of beer, were found inside the Marshall home.

* WHERE were they "in the Marshall home?" Whose booze was it? The kids, not Phillip had alcohol in their toxicology results.

Well... now we're about 2/3rds of the way through analysis of the sheriffs' report.

Let's take a break and then we can try to cover a bit more.
 
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