Claim BUK launcher trucked out of Ukraine

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The Russian Ministry of Defence has weighed in on this photo in their July 21, 2014 Briefing:


This is a transcript started at 17:20 on the Russion Defence Briefing. Sorry for the really crappy spellings of the Russian cities:

"We can clearly see the facts juggled. This picture Svodan in the City of Krasnoarmeysk, that is confirmed by a banner which is situated close to the road. This banner has an address of Nierpreproska 34. But the Krasnoarmeysk City, since the 11 of May, has been under the control of the Ukrainian armed forces. That is why we have some questions:
- What kind of launching system is it?
- To where was it being transported?
- Where is it now?
- Why is it loaded with shot missile munition?
- When is the last time it launched missiles?"

That's a new twist.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
The Russian Ministry of Defence has weighed in on this photo in their July 21, 2014 Briefing:


This is a transcript started at 17:20 on the Russion Defence Briefing. Sorry for the really crappy spellings of the Russian cities:
.
.
.
"We can clearly see the facts juggled. This picture Svodan in the City of Krasnoarmeysk, that is confirmed by a banner which is situated close to the road. This banner has an address of Nierpreproska 34. But the Krasnoarmeysk City, since the 11 of May, has been under the control of the Ukrainian armed forces. That is why we have some questions:
- What kind of launching system is it?
- To where was it being transported?
- Where is it now?
- Why is it loaded with shot missile munition?
- When is the last time it launched missiles?"

That's a new twist.

See post 116 in this thread
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Perhaps the last few pages can be turned into a separate debunk of the claim the footage wasn't taken in rebel territory, as it's making the rounds -
Today, Mish debunked one of the main pieces of video “evidence” claimed by the mainstream media to prove that Russia was behind the shootdown of the Malaysian plane over Ukraine:
-
However, going by the billboard and other features of the scenery, Russian bloggers and news sources claim to have identified the road in the video as having been taken in or near the town of Krasnoarmeisk (“Krasnoarmiysk” in Ukrainian), which has been under Kiev’s control since May.
-
In fact, the billboard is supposedly advertising a Krasnoarmeisk car dealership. Also, one of the structures in the background is said to be a construction materials store on Gorkii Street, Krasnoarmeisk.
-
Please note that this town is (very roughly) 120 kilometers from the Russian border and 80 kilometers from where the Malaysian 777 went down. And again, it has been under Kiev’s control since May.http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com.au/2014/07/video-of-rebel-buk-launchers-headed.html
Content from External Source
 

TEEJ

Senior Member.
The Russian Ministry of Defence has weighed in on this photo in their July 21, 2014 Briefing:

That's a new twist.

The new twist is that Putin won't be happy with his military intelligence! There are going to be some red-faced Generals on Putin's carpet with hats on after this! What they didn't do is double check the claim that was on social media of it being in Krasnoarmeisk. Obviously the ground mapping images are old and don't show the current Bogdan Autos dealership billboard. The blue one in the foreground is now the Bogdan Autos one. See recent one from 9th July 2014 showing the area. Note the Bogdan Autos billboard.



 

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David Coulter

Senior Member.
That helps sort out the orientation and topology of the BUK photo/video. It is now clear that the photo/video was done from a distance with a high zoom - this explains the foreshortening of the sign and the intersection.
 

David Coulter

Senior Member.
The new twist is that Putin won't be happy with his military intelligence!

I doubt he cares what is proven outside his propaganda machine. All of the Russian PR blitz is for internal consumption. The radar showing a fighter jet mysteriously floating in mid air, stories based on old photography, etc - easily refuted by crowdsourcing, but The Truth to people watching RT. Anyway, as the self proclaimed Russian prime minister of the Donetsk republic said: almost everything on the Internet is lies.
 

Jason

Senior Member
I doubt he cares what is proven outside his propaganda machine. All of the Russian PR blitz is for internal consumption. The radar showing a fighter jet mysteriously floating in mid air, stories based on old photography, etc - easily refuted by crowdsourcing, but The Truth to people watching RT. Anyway, as the self proclaimed Russian prime minister of the Donetsk republic said: almost everything on the Internet is lies.
OT: so the people inside of Russia can't get news from outside of its borders like CNN or BBC. Even if you're a US citizen and you travel to Russia on vacation, are you still limited to what you can view on Russian Internet...
 

David Coulter

Senior Member.
OT: so the people inside of Russia can't get news from outside of its borders like CNN or BBC. Even if you're a US citizen and you travel to Russia on vacation, are you still limited to what you can view on Russian Internet...

Agree, went OT.
 

TEEJ

Senior Member.
I've not seen this one posted. Apologies if I have missed it? Video footage of a Buk movement claimed to be on 17/7/14 at 11:40.

Filmed in Zuhres travelling on H21 towards Torez. Zuhres is between Donetsk and Snizhne.


48.016970 38.301823

Map Link

https://goo.gl/maps/B5Q4Z

Video upload from You Tube link.

 

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2 SU25 aircraft downed today, one from 5200m altitude which would imply BUK (or another vehicle driven) SAM system.

However maybe not the same BUK that downed MH17 so I can't conclude if it's stayed in Ukraine or has been driven out.
 

David Coulter

Senior Member.
Probably needs to go in the news thread but.... Not necessarily a BUK. The Ukraine authorities raised the no fly zone to over 30k ft before the BUK threat was recognized because anti aircraft capabilities to that altitude were thought to be in the hands of the rebels.
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
2 SU25 aircraft downed today, one from 5200m altitude which would imply BUK (or another vehicle driven) SAM system.

However maybe not the same BUK that downed MH17 so I can't conclude if it's stayed in Ukraine or has been driven out.

Who is flying those things and don't they know how to use the countermeasures??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-25#Overview

The aircraft's self-defence suite includes various measures, such as flare and chaff dispensers capable of launching up to 250 flares and dipole chaff. Hostile radar uses are guarded against via an SPO-15 radar warning receiver.
Content from External Source
 

Jason

Senior Member
Who is flying those things and don't they know how to use the countermeasures??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-25#Overview

The aircraft's self-defence suite includes various measures, such as flare and chaff dispensers capable of launching up to 250 flares and dipole chaff. Hostile radar uses are guarded against via an SPO-15 radar warning receiver.
Content from External Source
So either the pilots are very inexperienced, or they don't have the funding to equip their jets with counter measures, or who ever is shooting them down is technologically more advanced (this is where the russians come into play). I don't know which one makes more sense
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
So either the pilots are very inexperienced, or they don't have the funding to equip their jets with counter measures, or who ever is shooting them down is technologically more advanced (this is where the russians come into play). I don't know which one makes more sense
It may be neither. During Gulf War 1 plenty of allied aircraft got shot down by AA fire. Don't forget about handheld systems. Technology and experience does not necessarily mean superiority.
 

Jason

Senior Member
It may be neither. During Gulf War 1 plenty of allied aircraft got shot down by AA fire. Don't forget about handheld systems. Technology and experience does not necessarily mean superiority.
Good point David, but most of the allied aircraft that was shot down was flying at a much lower altitude than what commercial jets fly at. If I recall correctly, at the beginning of that war we so many lost planes because we had them flowing low to the ground to avoid radar which they realized was a mistake...
 

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
chaffs and flares are not guaranteed to work every time(far from that), actually against missiles like BUK majority of time they won't work

Irrelevant, since NO commercial airline is equipped with chaff or flares.

EDIT: Except FLARE pistols are in the life-rafts....but again....irrelevant to this situation.
 

Jason

Senior Member
Irrelevant, since NO commercial airline is equipped with chaff or flares.

EDIT: Except FLARE pistols are in the life-rafts....but again....irrelevant to this situation.
I think they were refering to why the SU-25 pilots keep getting shot down.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
The Russians found the BUK missile system a bit of a handful in Georgia/South Osetia in 2008 - apparently the Russians themselves could not counter it very effectively!!

It seems to be a very capable system that isn't too bothered by a bit of chaff (and of course being semi-active radar guided flares are irrelevant) - see also Global Security site

Irrelevant, since NO commercial airline is equipped with chaff or flares.

Actually El Al's system does use flares - but of course they are no use vs a radar guided missile like Buk.
 

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
OK...well....El Al excepted....

But, well....I can see their "point".


EDIT: I can predict the next: "El Al causes all of the chemtrails!!"

Oh, 'happy day'........
 

mennie

New Member
"We can clearly see the facts juggled. This picture Svodan in the City of Krasnoarmeysk, that is confirmed by a banner which is situated close to the road. This banner has an address of Nierpreproska 34. But the Krasnoarmeysk City, since the 11 of May,
I have no doubt that this car dealer is located at Nierpreproska 34, Krasnoarmeysk.
But the owner would be very stupid if he put an advertisement next to his shop.
Of course he will advertise in the surrounding cities!
 

Master Yoda

New Member
Why are you so sure about that?
The adress "Днепропетровская, 34" is from a car dealer, no doubt. But not from the one on the banner.
This adress is used by this car dealer here: Донецкая автомобильная компания which is not the same as on the banner.
Here you can check the Homepage of this car dealer: http://dak.dn.ua/ Same russian letters used.
Here you can verify the adress: http://avtosale.ua/avtosalon/Donetsk_automobile_company-1121/
At the lower left side u find this "Днепропетровская, 34" adress again

Now to the adress on the banner:
This is Bogdan Auto
Here is it's Homepage :http://lg.bogdanauto.com.ua/contacts/contacts-map/

1. As you can see, the sign on the banner is the one from Bogdan Auto. Dak has a different one, not shown on the banner in the video.
2. As you can see on it's Homepage, Bogdan Auto has no Office in Krasnoarmeysk. But it has one in Luhansk. While the dak car dealer has a Office in Krasnoarmeysk, but not in Luhansk.
3. The russian Military briefing was wrong at least in this point. Deliberately or by accident, I don't know. Everyone should draw his own conclusions from this info.


Cheers,
Yoda
 

TEEJ

Senior Member.
1. As you can see, the sign on the banner is the one from Bogdan Auto. Dak has a different one, not shown on the banner in the video.
2. As you can see on it's Homepage, Bogdan Auto has no Office in Krasnoarmeysk. But it has one in Luhansk. While the dak car dealer has a Office in Krasnoarmeysk, but not in Luhansk.
3. The russian Military briefing was wrong at least in this point. Deliberately or by accident, I don't know. Everyone should draw his own conclusions from this info.


Cheers,
Yoda

Nice work. Which leads me to the claimed address on the banner. Is it really there? From the Russian Brief they have it circled but never present any graphics where you can read what they are highlighting. If it does say 'Днепропетровская, 34' then this would be further proof that the video is from Luhansk, IMHO. Dak Car dealer has no office in Luhansk but advertises their official dealer link with Bodgan on a billboard in Luhansk? Does that make sense?

From Google translation

In addition to selling cars, our company offers repair services, maintenance of vehicles, for which there is a service station, which employs experts with extensive experience in
the field of spare parts sales and repair of cars, different brands, including foreign production. We are official dealers Car: Geely, SsangYong, Jac, Uz-Daewoo, Saipa, Graet Wall, Lifan, Skods, Hyundai, GAZ, VAZ, Bogdan.
Content from External Source
http://avtosale.ua/avtosalon/Donetsk_automobile_company-1121/
 

Master Yoda

New Member
I cant find this 'Днепропетровская, 34' on the billboard at all. The full ad posted (see #123) shows something different imho.
 

TEEJ

Senior Member.
Mick found the Facebook page and posted a translation earlier in the thread. The following is a translation snapshot of that page.

Original at following link.

https://www.facebook.com/KNNUK/posts/735639363159197

upload_2014-7-24_18-39-8.png



The following from the transcript of the brief. This appears to be what is presented on the right of the graphic?

The good example of such fact is that some mass media showed transportation of the Buk-M1 missile system from Ukrainian to Russian territory.We can clearly see that its frame-up. These pictures were made in the city of Krasnoarmeisk that is confirmed by a banner situated close to the road. This banner has an address of the car shop situated at the Dnepropetrovskaya, 34. Since May 11 the Krasnoarmeysk city is under control of the Ukrainian Armed Forces.
Content from External Source
Russia Today has the following which reads more clearly and has the address as 34 Dnepropetrovsk Street.

For example, media circulated a video supposedly showing a Buk system being moved from Ukraine to Russia. This is clearly a fabrication. This video was made in the town of Krasnoarmeisk, as evidenced by the billboard you see in the background, advertising a car dealership at 34 Dnepropetrovsk Street. Krasnoarmeysk has been controlled by the Ukrainian military since May 11.”
Content from External Source
http://rt.com/news/174496-malaysia-crash-russia-questions/



upload_2014-7-24_19-45-56.png

http://avtosale.ua/avtosalon/Donetsk_automobile_company-1121/

The advert is clearly for Bogdan Autos and the only car dealership at 34 Dnepropetrovsk Street, Krasnoarmeysk is the Donetsk Automobile Company who are official dealers for Bogdan.

We are official dealers Car: Geely, SsangYong, Jac, Uz-Daewoo, Saipa, Graet Wall, Lifan, Skods, Hyundai, GAZ, VAZ, Bogdan.
Content from External Source
http://avtosale.ua/avtosalon/Donetsk_automobile_company-1121/



It appears to me that the Russians have simply lifted the claim straight off the Facebook post and likely that the billboard doesn't have that address. If it does it certainly isn't clear and they don't provide a good enough graphic. Could it just be the wording that is seen on the above Bogdan Autos advert?
 
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Master Yoda

New Member
Well my wife speaks Russian as she originates from a Baltic country but the ad is in Ukrainian so she doesnt know what it exactly says, but the first of the 2 words above the Bogdan logo means "national" and the second something with "Auto"=car. Maybe it says National Cardealer, although not absolutely sure about that. The small printed text directly below the car is hard to read, but i couldn't see anything similar to a "34" there when I zoomed it in a bit.

But from my point of view this is secondary, as the pictures clearly show it was in Luhansk and not in Krasnoarmeysk.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Well my wife speaks Russian as she originates from a Baltic country but the ad is in Ukrainian so she doesnt know what it exactly says, but the first of the 2 words above the Bogdan logo means "national" and the second something with "Auto"=car. Maybe it says National Cardealer, although not absolutely sure about that. The small printed text directly below the car is hard to read, but i couldn't see anything similar to a "34" there when I zoomed it in a bit.

But from my point of view this is secondary, as the pictures clearly show it was in Luhansk and not in Krasnoarmeysk.

Национальный Автодилер = National Auto Dealer (дилер = dyler = phonetic "dealer"). English loan word.

Bogdan had a dealership in Luhansk.
http://lg.bogdanauto.com.ua/
str Lineva (Andriya Lyn'ova St), 64, Luhans'k, Luhans'ka oblast, Ukraine

This address is about one mile to the North of where the sign is.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
The Paris Match article seems to claim the truck was stolen, but I'm not sure on this translation.
http://www.parismatch.com/Actu/Inte...-transporter-le-systeme-lance-missiles-577289

Les rebelles pro-russes du Donbass ont dérobé un camion pour transporter le système lance-missile BUK photographié dans la ville de Snijne quelques heures avant le crash du vol MH17, a indiqué à Paris Match le propriétaire du véhicule.

«Ce camion, les combattants me l’ont embarqué au début du mois, avec une dizaine d’autres», a affirmé le propriétaire, Vassili, joint par téléphone. «Je l’ai effectivement reconnu sur les photos. Mais comme on me l’a volé, je ne sais ni où il est, ni à quoi il sert. Je ne le contrôle pas du tout», a insisté Vassili, directeur de l’entreprise Stroy-Bud Montage, basée à Donetsk, la capitale des séparatistes pro-russes dans l’extrême Est de l’Ukraine.


Rebel pro-Russian Donbass stole a truck to transport the missile launcher system BUK photographed in the city of Snijne few hours before the crash of flight MH17, told Paris Match the vehicle owner.

"This truck fighters have shipped me earlier this month, with a dozen others," said the owner, Vassili, reached by telephone. "I actually recognized in the photos. But as I stole it, I do not know where he is or what it does. I do not control it at all, "insisted Vasily company director Stroy-Bud Montage, based in Donetsk, the capital of the pro-Russian separatists in the far eastern Ukraine.
Content from External Source
 

reenolith

New Member
The Paris Match article seems to claim the truck was stolen, but I'm not sure on this translation.
http://www.parismatch.com/Actu/Inte...-transporter-le-systeme-lance-missiles-577289

Les rebelles pro-russes du Donbass ont dérobé un camion pour transporter le système lance-missile BUK photographié dans la ville de Snijne quelques heures avant le crash du vol MH17, a indiqué à Paris Match le propriétaire du véhicule.

«Ce camion, les combattants me l’ont embarqué au début du mois, avec une dizaine d’autres», a affirmé le propriétaire, Vassili, joint par téléphone. «Je l’ai effectivement reconnu sur les photos. Mais comme on me l’a volé, je ne sais ni où il est, ni à quoi il sert. Je ne le contrôle pas du tout», a insisté Vassili, directeur de l’entreprise Stroy-Bud Montage, basée à Donetsk, la capitale des séparatistes pro-russes dans l’extrême Est de l’Ukraine.


Rebel pro-Russian Donbass stole a truck to transport the missile launcher system BUK photographed in the city of Snijne few hours before the crash of flight MH17, told Paris Match the vehicle owner.

"This truck fighters have shipped me earlier this month, with a dozen others," said the owner, Vassili, reached by telephone. "I actually recognized in the photos. But as I stole it, I do not know where he is or what it does. I do not control it at all, "insisted Vasily company director Stroy-Bud Montage, based in Donetsk, the capital of the pro-Russian separatists in the far eastern Ukraine.
Content from External Source

I've corrected the translation, as there were two crucial mistakes in it:

"This truck, fighters have stolen from me earlier this month, with a dozen others," said the owner, Vassili, reached by telephone. "I actually recognized in the photos. But as it was stolen from me, I do not know where it is or what it does. I do not control it at all, "insisted Vasily company director Stroy-Bud Montage, based in Donetsk, the capital of the pro-Russian separatists in the far eastern Ukraine.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
The location is claimed to be in Donetsk. Needs clarification. Any thoughts?

Location appears to match exactly. That photo is in Donetsk. But the caption is:

Un sytème lance-missile BUK est photopgraphie par l'équipe de Paris-Match en train d'arriver dans la ville de Snijne le matin du 17 juillet, quelques heures avant le crash du vol Malaysia Airlines MH17.

A sytem BUK missile launcher is photopgraphie by team Paris-Match happening in the city of Snijne the morning of July 17, just hours before the crash of Flight Malaysia Airlines MH17.
Content from External Source
Possibly something lost in translation at some point. The truck is on the highway pointing towards Snizhne, 70km down the road.


But it certainly seems like a misleading caption.
 

David Coulter

Senior Member.
Possibly something lost in translation at some point.

I think so. Another translation reads as: "by train to arrive in the city Snijne ". Note the future tense, "to arrive". I assume that train in French is similar to the Australian term for a big semi truck, a "road train". I would put the translation as, <a photograph by Paris Match> of a transporter truck moving in the direction of Snijne on the morning of July 17, four hours before the crash...
 

Master Yoda

New Member
Some guy in a german Forum has put a lot of work into a chain of evidence regarding the downing of MH17, and split it into two parts. First part shows the western "evidence", second part shows the (pro)russian one. All the "evidences" are linked to their original source.

http://www.slinfo.de/forum/showthread.php?t=34509

I will try to translate this properly although I don't have the time for it today or tomorrow. But I think it'll be worth the work, as it's the most detailed (regarding timeline on July 17th) post I've seen so far regarding this topic.
 

TEEJ

Senior Member.
Possible further evidence of the separatists use of the Donetsk construction company equipment? Looks like a PT-76 light tank on the trailer?

According to Paris-Match, the proprietor of this establishment claimed “rebels” had stolen a number of his vehicles earlier in the month.
Content from External Source
http://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2014/07/28/why-is-paris-match-on-the-location-of-a-buk/

Construction Company in Donetsk.

http://www.cm.ua/contacts.html

It is taken from opposite the Vostochno-evroppeyskiy restaurant & lounge “Atrium” in Makiivka on the H-21.
Content from External Source
upload_2014-8-7_12-38-13.png

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Remont kompyuterov v Makeevke - Pro-TEST servis/@48.0403831,37.9667404,17z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0xa40fd1ee3ebfdf07

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Makiivka, Donetsk Oblast, Ukraine/@48.04073,37.967479,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m5!1e2!3m3!1s78165143!2e1!3e10!4m2!3m1!1s0x40e08e984a0db9a9:0xe4e52efde2e0641c

http://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2014/08/07/new-sighting-of-volvo-linked-to-buk/
 
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