Claim BUK launcher trucked out of Ukraine

MikeC

Closed Account
A Sydney Morning Herald story reproduced on a NZ website repeats claims from the Govt of Ukraine that a BUK missile system was moved out of Ukraine shortly after the shoot-down - the top image here is supposedly that happening:



Moreover it points out that the BUK system captured by he rebels in a Ukrainian arsenal was inoperative and had no missiles - and that several missiles were subsequently shipped in from Russia, and are presumed to have been accompanied by Russian operators:

If true this would be a serious escalation!
 

Jason

Senior Member
A Sydney Morning Herald story reproduced on a NZ website repeats claims from the Govt of Ukraine that a BUK missile system was moved out of Ukraine shortly after the shoot-down - the top image here is supposedly that happening:



Moreover it points out that the BUK system captured by he rebels in a Ukrainian arsenal was inoperative and had no missiles - and that several missiles were subsequently shipped in from Russia, and are presumed to have been accompanied by Russian operators:

If true this would be a serious escalation!
I found additional photos of the supposed Buk used in the attack here; http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tists-shot-missile-McCain-warns-Hell-pay.html




They also portray the location of the launch site on this map
 

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
So, if I am following the logic here...there are some residents of Ukraine who wish to remain part of Russia, and others are fighting for independence.

This is the basis....a civil war:

The 'theory' then boils down to ....what? Moscow intervening by supplying those loyalists, and targeting as much of Ukraine's arsenal as possible?

Thus, the tragic misidentification of a civilian airliner for a Ukrainian war-effort supply airplane?

Probably even more complicated than that, though......
 

jonnyH

Senior Member.
the BUK system captured by he rebels in a Ukrainian arsenal was inoperative
I wonder what sort of access control systems a BUK has?

As an absolute minimum I would expect some kind of PIN or password would be required before you can operate the weapon. The last thing you want when your military hardware falls into enemy hands is for it to be used against you.

Pretty much every doomsday device in the movies has a "self destruct" button ;)
 

Jason

Senior Member
I wonder what sort of access control systems a BUK has?

As an absolute minimum I would expect some kind of PIN or password would be required before you can operate the weapon. The last thing you want when your military hardware falls into enemy hands is for it to be used against you.

Pretty much every doomsday device in the movies has a "self destruct" button ;)
The buk missile system seems to be pretty complicated for a layman such as myself with a lot of moving components involved. Here take a look;
http://defensetech.org/2014/07/17/4...tems-that-could-shoot-down-the-malaysian-jet/

Added; I think the next question is can you use the Buk missile system with only the errector launcher vehicle, or do you need the other components as well for a successful launch.

There is another outdated but still functional unit which I could see the Russians giving to the rebels but its purely speculation at this point.

2K12Kub (NATO designation: SA-6 GAINFUL)

 
Last edited:

Libertarian

Banned
Banned
Try telling that to the US with regards to Libya, and precisely why we didn't arm Syrian Rebels.
Ummm.....on what planet was it that you heard the US didn't arm the Syrian rebels? The heavy weapons and Manpads we gave them in Syria are all over Iraq right now. The MSM is busy telling everyone that the US military just "left them in Iraq", as if the US Military makes a point of just leaving heavy machine guns and shoulder fired surface to air missiles lying about. I suppose the MSM thinks we are fools.

Sorry if this sounds ignorant, but do we have any proof that BUK missiles were even used? I've seen it thrown around a lot, but I have seen NO PROOF AT ALL that a BUK was used.

Please do not link to the POTUS saying that one was used as proof. Because this is just as sufficient as proof as providing something that Putin says. Both leaders issue propaganda.
 
Last edited:

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
There's no proof yet, what there is lots of evidence pointing to it being the most likely. Obama's intel such as satellite footage of the missile signature is not generally available to us.
The facts are it's the piece of military hardware capable of hitting the plane, the rebels were bragging about having possession of one several days previously, of having shot down a transport using one, a convoy with one in tow was seen entering then leaving the country.
To ignore all that would be stupid.
 

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
Sigh.......

http://www.hindustantimes.com/world...eparatists-by-russia-us/article1-1242506.aspx

US intelligence suggests Moscow provided MH 17 missile

You are aware (I would hope) that the United States possess quite a few very sophisticated satellites, capable of monitoring in ways that usually are kept classified, right?

(Did you see the film "Zero Dark Thirty"?)
 

Libertarian

Banned
Banned
Zero Dark Thirty was a horrible film. I don't like seeing fiction dressed up as facts.

If the US has had a very sophisticated look at the Ukraine and said nothing about it that raises suspicion that the Ukraine had something to do with it.

I was searching for AA deployments in Ukraine and Russia and trying to figure out whether something other than a BUK could have downed the plane and it seems the answer is "yes".

Evidently there are multiple batteries of S-200 rockets in Ukraine. This is born out by Ukraine admitting to having accidentally shot down an airliner in 2001 with an S-200. How was the S-200 ruled out and why is everyone focused exclusively on the BUK?

According to Wikipedia, there are 1,950 launchers at 130 sites through the former Soviet Union. How many are in the Ukraine I wonder?

EDIT: I found the answer to my question in some Russion "Propaganda" here:
 
Last edited:

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
Wiki:


Hang on.....that page was "last modified" 19 July (UTC).
 
Last edited:

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
If the US has had a very sophisticated look at the Ukraine and said nothing about it that raises suspicion that the Ukraine had something to do with it.

What are you talking about, they HAVE said something about it.

Or do you think as soon as they were aware of the equipment movements they should have informed you (the world) of that?
How does the US knowing about it raise suspicion that Ukraine had something to do with it?
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
How was the S-200 ruled out and why is everyone focused exclusively on the BUK?

Because of the established pattern - rebel territory, previous attacks on planes, boasts of acquiring and using the system, system seen entering and leaving region.
The s-200 has not necessarily been ruled out, the investigation will determine what was used in due time.
 

Libertarian

Banned
Banned
What are you talking about, they HAVE said something about it.
Or do you think as soon as they were aware of the equipment movements they should have informed you (the world) of that?
If they know what happened they should come out with it. But since they haven't done that, it lends suspicion to the notion that their ally did it, and they are issuing propaganda to cover it up.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
it lends suspicion to the notion that their ally did it, and they are issuing propaganda to cover it up.
To your thinking process perhaps.
Because they have some intel about the incident, but don't have outright proof of exactly who did it, they must be covering up?
That is in no way a rational conclusion.
 

Libertarian

Banned
Banned
Because they have some intel about the incident, but don't have outright proof of exactly who did it, they must be covering up?
We don't know if they have outright proof of exactly who did it.

The reason I suspect them of covering up is because NATO and the Military Industrial Complex stand to gain if the outcome currently being floated by them is agreed to be the case.

That and Russia had nothing to gain by blowing up a passenger jet.

Oh, and as a last note, the US published a plan to declare war by framing Cuba of shooting down one of their own passenger airliners in Operation Northwoods. So doing something like this is certainly not beyond their contemplation.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
But 'who gains' has nothing to do with 'who actually did it'.
SOMETIMES the party who gains will have done it, but to say that the party who gains must be responsible is weak CT logic. Sometimes who gains is the legitimate victim and deserves it.
And the definition of 'gain' is highly subjective here and could be anything. Maybe someone gets a huge insurance payout from this, does that mean they must be behind it? Russia also 'gains' in this because it increases hostility against America, therefore they must have done it? The Dutch 'gain' because they get sympathy for their loss, therefore they did it? AIDS research 'gains' in this because it brings the researchers work into the spotlight, therefore they did it? Israel 'gains' because it takes attention off Gaza, therefore they did it?
It's useless to go that route.

That and Russia had nothing to gain by blowing up a passenger jet.


Russia didn't deliberately blow up a passenger jet, the working theory (and it really does look hard to deny at this point) is that the rebels ACCIDENTLY shot down an airliner using equipment supplied by Russia who were trying to help them overthrow the Ukranian government, and now they are both doing everything to deny it and throw suspicion and doubt on the evidence, something you seem only to happy to help them with because 'obama' or something.

The thing that really should be asked is, was this system being transported out of the Ukraine, by who, and where is it now? Aren't you interested in those questions?
 

David Coulter

Senior Member.
There seems to be 4 lines of evidence released so far:
1. A Tweat from someone bragging about hitting the plane that was deleted when it was recognized as a civilian aircraft
2. A (apparent) phone cam video that appears to have been taken by the shooters (also deleted)
3. Intercepted communication wherein one of the rebels says that the plane was shot down by "Cossacks" at a checkpoint near "the mine"
4. Limited radar tracking by the US (probably much more but classified)

Without Putin's cooperation it will likely never be known with any certainty whether the shooters were Russian military or rebels. The photos and descriptions of the BUK by Janes (http://www.janes.com/article/40907/missile-profile-9k37-buk) show a separate radar for the stand alone launcher. So you don't just park it and push a button to start shooting - the system has to be set up. Seems unlikely you could do this by reading a manual.

The bigger question is how did they mistake a civilian airliner for a transport? The BUK system should have been able to read the squawk code. (If you saw the Aircrash Investigation covering the Iran Air incident, the Navy had that capability but the cursor on the IFF system was was not moved to double check the transponder until seconds before shooting. The system had picked up an F14 that was taking off at the same time.) It doesn't seem likely that someone at the rank of the system operator (probably the equivalent of a Sargent) would purposefully start an international incident. It is more likely they were just trigger happy and didn't follow procedures.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
There seems to be 4 lines of evidence released so far:
1. A Tweat from someone bragging about hitting the plane that was deleted when it was recognized as a civilian aircraft
2. A (apparent) phone cam video that appears to have been taken by the shooters (also deleted)
3. Intercepted communication wherein one of the rebels says that the plane was shot down by "Cossacks" at a checkpoint near "the mine"
4. Limited radar tracking by the US (probably much more but classified)

A 5th would be the presence of a Buk system in the area recently arrived from Russian territory, as per the Ukrainian information in the OP

The bigger question is how did they mistake a civilian airliner for a transport? The BUK system should have been able to read the squawk code.

Perhaps it can - but there has to be a question of whether or not were they looking for IFF/squawk.
 

David Coulter

Senior Member.
Perhaps it can - but there has to be a question of whether or not were they looking for IFF/squawk.

They would be crazy not to have and follow IFF procedures. Even in a self proclaimed war zone you run the risk of shooting down a friendly.
 

David Coulter

Senior Member.
The thing that really should be asked is, was this system being transported out of the Ukraine, by who, and where is it now? Aren't you interested in those questions?

I am about 100% sure that NRO assets have been watching the area, that was the motivation for the latest sanctions - evidence of heavy military equipment being deployed by Russia. There is also the reality that not everyone in the area is pro-Russian. Loyal Ukrainians have probably shot a lot more photos than have appeared on social media (pretty crazy to do that without "cleaning" the photos so your identity can not be found by Russian intel) and have been reporting activities to Kiev. I suspect of of the field intel is making its way to Langley.

The strange thing is the Dr Strangelove aspect. If they wanted to protect their airspace to 70,000ft with new capabilities, why didn't they announce it? A simple communication to all aviation authorities that any aircraft overflying the region will be considered hostile and be subject to attack is part of the rules of warfare. The fact that they didn't puts them in the war criminal class.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
They would be crazy not to have and follow IFF procedures. Even in a self proclaimed war zone you run the risk of shooting down a friendly.
I think not being a regulated military force with concerns of protocols and so on but being 'rebels' (I imagine it's more a 'run and gun' and hit where and when you can mentality), following procedures and such is not really a concern. Evidence for that is the way they've handled the crash scene and threatened official investigators. That's got to be against some basic rules of conflict.


If they wanted to protect their airspace to 70,000ft with new capabilities, why didn't they announce it?
There's the reported deleted 'we warned you not to fly in our airspace', but I don't know if anyone's found the initial warning that refers to.
 

Gridlock

Senior Member.
The 'photo' from the daily mail (no capitalisation because even that is too much for me..) is a grab from this video:


Note that the source is listed as "The Ukrainian interior ministry". I'm not sure why it fades to black where it does.

There are also things like this popping up on YouTube:


Nice datestamp, eh? "Seems legit..."
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
The advice on airspace was revised, probably over concerns of the rebels changing offensive capabilities.
(Actually the wiki timeline is very interesting...)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17#Timeline
 

Sgt.Tinfoil

Member
So, if I am following the logic here...there are some residents of Ukraine who wish to remain part of Russia, and others are fighting for independence.

This is the basis....a civil war
Eventhought in Ukraine there might be people who want to join to the Russia the fighting is going on between Ukraine against Donetsk Republic and Luhansk Republic who have been declared independency after voting for it. They are not fighting for joining Russia. Ukraine is looking to get IMF austerity progam which demands that Ukraine needs to control those now independent declared areas. Thats the base for the civil war
 

Bill

Senior Member.
Zero Dark Thirty was a horrible film. I don't like seeing fiction dressed up as facts.

If the US has had a very sophisticated look at the Ukraine and said nothing about it that raises suspicion that the Ukraine had something to do with it.

I was searching for AA deployments in Ukraine and Russia and trying to figure out whether something other than a BUK could have downed the plane and it seems the answer is "yes".

Evidently there are multiple batteries of S-200 rockets in Ukraine. This is born out by Ukraine admitting to having accidentally shot down an airliner in 2001 with an S-200. How was the S-200 ruled out and why is everyone focused exclusively on the BUK?

According to Wikipedia, there are 1,950 launchers at 130 sites through the former Soviet Union. How many are in the Ukraine I wonder?

EDIT: I found the answer to my question in some Russion "Propaganda" here:

The Ukraine also admitted their mistake and did not interfere with the recovery efforts. Citing an accident from 2001 looks like a desperate attempt to cover up the truth by distracting peoples attention from what is known about the current incident with irrelevant information. This morning I watched Al Jazeera condemning the separatist for removing evidence before it can be examined and saying everything points to the separatist. The overwhelming opinion in the world seems to be that the evidence points to a missile launch from separatist held territory. The claims that the Ukrainian government is behind it seem to be coming from the separatist, the Russian government and people who seem to believe that if the US or the west make the claim it must automatically be a lie.
 

Gridlock

Senior Member.
Lighting looks about right for 8:45pm this time of year.

The video was filmed near Belgorod, Russia, according to various signs along the route Probably the 'M2' road. I'm unable to locate historic cloud cover imagery for this region but I'm sure someone can.

Worth noting this is near the Ukrainian border, but this would be under Ukrainian government control (Kharkiv area). I doubt they'd be amenable to a border crossing... If it came from Donetsk then it's a very weird route to take.

And ultimately of course, it could be a milk float for all we know. Military vehicles moving near the Ukrainian border - totally expected.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Another transcript...
more...
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukr...irlines-flight-video-transcript-2-356778.html

Possible smoke trail...

http://www.bild.de/news/ausland/flu...de-die-rakete-abgeschossen-36901896.bild.html
 

Elfenlied

Member
Sigh.......

http://www.hindustantimes.com/world...eparatists-by-russia-us/article1-1242506.aspx

US intelligence suggests Moscow provided MH 17 missile

You are aware (I would hope) that the United States possess quite a few very sophisticated satellites, capable of monitoring in ways that usually are kept classified, right?

(Did you see the film "Zero Dark Thirty"?)
The Pentagon statement is somewhat different:

http://www.kmbz.com/Pentagon-It-Strains-Credulity-That-Separatists-Did/19448840

They did say that rebels received training to operate the system, training given inside Russia:
The BUK has one serious design flaw, according to Business Insider: when used in stand-alone mode the system cannot discriminate between military and civilian targets.
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-flaw-in-the-buk-missile-system-2014-7

The same (type of) system was likely responsible for the downing of the AN-26 on monday, that aircraft was flying at 21,000 feet. Which for the Wall Street Journal raises the question why Ukraine failed to close its airspace.
http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukra...defense-capabilities-say-officials-1405781508
 

VNe

New Member
Does there need to be any conspiracy concerning this??
Have the separatists shot down any aircraft prior to MH17 being shot down?
Yes several.
Now because they shot an airliner down to the detriment of their cause, does it seem more plausible it really was this simple?
if it had of been an IL76 or an AN24 at the same height at the same time at the same location with the same result, it would have featured on local news and probably not have even made an article in western news papers.
 

jonnyH

Senior Member.
The transporter caught on the dashcam in the video in post 24 (see attached screen grab) has a Russian Military registration plate like this:


Which is distinct from the Ukranian Military registration plate that looks like this:


The registration on the transporter is XP 4682 50. The format is consistent with that used on trailers and the XP 50 elements should indicate the branch of the armed forces to which it belongs:
 

Attachments

  • registration.tiff
    207 KB · Views: 803

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
The same (type of) system was likely responsible for the downing of the AN-26 on monday, that aircraft was flying at 21,000 feet. Which for the Wall Street Journal raises the question why Ukraine failed to close its airspace.
Well that's the day they revised the recommended flight height, up from 26000 feet.
14 July 2014: Ukrainian officials advised pilots to not fly below 32,000 feet (9,800 m) over eastern Ukraine.[56]

They obviously tried, just not good enough.
 

JeffreyNotGeoffrey

Active Member
The very fact that the rebels are hiding things and hindering the investigation just looks simply bad. If others had done this, I would think the rebels would be jumping through hoops to prove their innocence, not throwing up roadblocks (literally too) for investigators.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Please keep on topic. The topic is the evidence of a Buk launcher being used to bring down the plane, and then removed from the area.
 

Libertarian

Banned
Banned
The bigger question is how did they mistake a civilian airliner for a transport? The BUK system should have been able to read the squawk code.
Perhaps it can - but there has to be a question of whether or not were they looking for IFF/squawk.
Can the IFF/squawk be spoofed or changed? IE could someone have sent the aircraft to its' doom?

Currently the evidence does look better and better for a BUK attack by separatists. If so they should be admitting it. Very embarrasing... but it's better to eat crow while it is hot.
 
Thread starter Related Articles Forum Replies Date
P Claim: Men in black "Threatened a hotel manager" in 2009 UFOs, Aliens, Monsters, and the Paranormal 14
P "Deleted Votes" Claim, 2020 Election, Erie County, New York Election 2020 16
T Claim: Thousands of fraudulent votes in Georgia cast by felons, dead, underage voters Election 2020 6
Rory Claim: Li Hongzhi (founder of Falun Gong) was made an honorary citizen of Houston, Atlanta and Georgia People Debunked 1
P Claim: "Dogman" spotted on a Facebook livestream UFOs, Aliens, Monsters, and the Paranormal 31
Mick West Debunked: Claim that the Electoral College Count On Jan 6 will Change the Election Election 2020 136
P Claim: Biden campaign short code '30330' is veiled message Election 2020 29
Mick West Debunked: Trump's Claim of "1,126,940 votes created out of thin air" in PA Election 2020 8
P Claim: UFO Black Knight Satellite spotted over Philippines UFO Videos and Reports from the US Navy 3
Mick West Explained: Trump's Claim of Suspicious Early Morning Michigan Bump [It's Detroit] Election 2020 1
Mick West Claim: R-Squared Coefficient of Determination as a Election Fraud Signal Election 2020 5
Akton Claim: Ballots in Wayne County were run through the tabulator and counted as many as 4-5 times Election 2020 16
Mick West Trump's Claim that "THE OBSERVERS WERE NOT ALLOWED INTO THE COUNTING ROOMS." Election 2020 6
P Claim: Authorities supressed alleged UFO findings of a reporter of the 1965 Kecksburg crash UFOs, Aliens, Monsters, and the Paranormal 7
M Claim: Hints of life on Venus: Scientists detect phosphine molecules in high cloud decks UFOs, Aliens, Monsters, and the Paranormal 20
Shade sitter Claim: Covid vaccine gives you "Serpent" DNA/marks you 666 Coronavirus COVID-19 9
P Claim: Ronald Reagan warned the world of aliens/alien invasion UFOs, Aliens, Monsters, and the Paranormal 4
P Claim: Man took photo of an alien spacecraft in 2016 UFOs, Aliens, Monsters, and the Paranormal 21
Arugula Claim: Only 6% of COVID deaths are "real" - the rest died due to comorbidities Coronavirus COVID-19 11
P Claim: Finding of potentially chemiluminescent compound in soil proves aliens landed UFOs, Aliens, Monsters, and the Paranormal 11
M Claim: UFO performs sharp maneuver after laser pointer directly hits craft UFOs, Aliens, Monsters, and the Paranormal 20
Critical Thinker Claim: Correlations Between Media Preference and Coronavirus Infection Rates Coronavirus COVID-19 11
L Claim: NASA is doctoring an image [Scanner Dirt] UFOs, Aliens, Monsters, and the Paranormal 7
Z.W. Wolf Claim: Martin Gugino Was Using a "Police Tracker." Conspiracy Theories 42
Rory Claim: A dog in Manchester could sense its owner's return by unknown means UFOs, Aliens, Monsters, and the Paranormal 21
jarlrmai Claim: UFO following jet into landing at JFK on 11/11/19 UFOs, Aliens, Monsters, and the Paranormal 15
Dingo Claim: U.S. Covid-19 Deaths are being Artificially Inflated Coronavirus COVID-19 38
W Claim: The Heart Is Not A Pump Health and Quackery 6
J Another sun path claim Flat Earth 4
J Claim sun paths prove flat earth Flat Earth 41
R Claim: Apollo 15-17 Live TV Feed - Antenna signal would be interrupted from all the violent shaking when Astronauts touch the buggy General Discussion 26
Rory Claim: Spanish flu caused by radio waves Coronavirus COVID-19 3
J [False] Claim that Scale Model of 2017 Eclipse Disproves the Heliocentric Model Flat Earth 29
Rory Claim: UK Coronavirus Bill (HC Bill 122) means "bad things" Coronavirus COVID-19 9
Mick West Claim: China Mobile loses 8.116 Million subscribers because of Coronavirus Coronavirus COVID-19 2
Agent K Claim: Harvey Weinstein has coronavirus Coronavirus COVID-19 9
Mick West Claim: Julian Assange offered pardon to "Lie" for Trump Current Events 20
Jesse3959 FE Claim Debunked: JTolan Epic Gravity Experiment - Flat earther disproves Perspective! (or his instruments.) Flat Earth 0
Wiggles Claim: Distant Objects Being Obscured Is Due To the "Mirror Blocking" Effect of Inferior Mirages Flat Earth 7
Mick West Claim: Section 13.1 on Vaccine Inserts Removed to Hide that Vaccines not Tested to Cause Cancer Conspiracy Theories 7
Rory Claim: footage of Great South Bay Bridge supports flat earth Flat Earth 11
mudr0 Claim: Australia was not visible from the moon for Apollo 11 Broadcasts Conspiracy Theories 7
Z.W. Wolf Claim: Moon Passing The Meridian Disproves Globe Earth Flat Earth 0
Z.W. Wolf Claim: Seeing The Same Stars All Year Disproves Globe Earth Flat Earth 20
Mick West Claim: Fertility Clinics are a new thing (David Icke) Conspiracy Theories 12
Rory Claim: Nasa' in Hebrew means "to deceive" Flat Earth 11
Leifer Claim: magnetic dust on cars proves chemtrail fallout Contrails and Chemtrails 11
Neil Obstat Claim: zooming in on setting sun proves flat earth Flat Earth 23
Marin B Claim: Passenger luggage limited to make room for chemical tanks Contrails and Chemtrails 15
MikeG Claim: DC officials are "flocking" to "Doomsday Camps" Conspiracy Theories 4
Related Articles


















































Election 2020

Related Articles

Top