Claim BUK launcher trucked out of Ukraine

[Joeybegood]

I am making a value judgement: the western authorities don't have a vested interested in covering up facts, the entities that "reportedly" shot down a civilian aircraft do have a vested interest in covering up facts. If you want to reserve judgement until all the results are released that is fine, but there will be some data that will not be released to the general public as the sources will be classified.

And that's a major part of the problem; being forced to take the word, to any extent, of people who have lied to the world in the past. I beg to differ about Western vested interests however. The West clearly wants Russian influence out of Ukraine, and if this situation helps to achieve that, then I think it's possible, likely even, that they would be economic with the truth.

 

[Joeybegood]

Here are more unsubstantiated claims, although they point to a good solution to the problem; release satellite data or radar records (if they exist as claimed). And as Sgt. Tinfoil already said, the wreckage of the plane would eventually be able to provide strong evidence of what happened, although it would take a while.

"A Ukraine Air Force military jet was detected gaining height, it's distance from the Malaysian Boeing was 3 to 5km," said the head of the Main Operations Directorate of the HQ of Russia's military forces, Lieutenant-General Andrey Kartopolov speaking at a media conference in Moscow on Monday.

"[We] would like to get an explanation as to why the military jet was flying along a civil aviation corridor at almost the same time and at the same level as a passenger plane," he stated. "The SU-25 fighter jet can gain an altitude of 10km, according to its specification," he added. "It's equipped with air-to-air R-60 missiles that can hit a target at a distance up to 12km, up to 5km for sure."

The presence of the Ukrainian military jet can be confirmed by video shots made by the Rostov monitoring center, Kartopolov stated. At the moment of the MH17 crash an American satellite was flying over the area of eastern Ukraine, according to Russia's Defense Ministry. It urged the US to publish the space photos and data captured by it.

 

[Sgt.Tinfoil]

release satellite data or radar records

Here you go

 

[TEEJ]

Text from that image is found here: 0https://www.facebook.com/KNNUK/posts/735639363159197

Google Translated:

In the Ukrainian public servers distributed video where militias allegedly trafficked to the side Russian gunman Beech. But the video Krasnoarmiysk city, visible billboard advertising dealership to Dnipropetrovsk, 34. May 11, and is still under the control of the city junta troops conducting ATO!
On Boquete lacks one rocket. Pictures and videos of the towing vehicle (the same) has a shop STROYDOM. Address: Krasnoarmiysk, Gorky 49. Beech That is the shooter was on the territory controlled by the junta and still there. What issues? All clear as day - Boeing Ukrainian military shot down here it's the most Buck, and now to the network leaked video was not compromising just stupid they are cutting all the blame on others, such as this "militia driven". Remain true to their nature brehlivoy (Odessites themselves burned themselves luganchane blew air conditioning, DNR shoots itself on cities and so on). bastards

Thanks Mick.

The video is highlighted in the following Russian military brief on MH17. No additional evidence is given other than repeating the claim that was on social media of the car dealership in Ukrainian controlled territory.

See from 25:00

 

[Stevan Gvozdenovic]

http://stat.multimedia.mil.ru/multimedia/photo/gallery.htm?id=17402@cmsPhotoGallery

official site of russian army

on the last picture they claim it's from Krasnoarmeysk which is under ukrainian control from 11th May, I don't think they would put it on official site without checking it

the pictures before are also interesting and tend to put the blame on ukrainian army however if I got that right from my bad russian they don't have hard evidence only allegations

 

[Soulfly]

Well the fragments and parts of misle in wreckage would be good hard evidence.

How much of the missile should be left after it blows up? Should we expect to see large pieces of it?

 

[Jason]

How much of the missile should be left after it blows up? Should we expect to see large pieces of it?

We should be able to find the missle tube and motor parts. Each of these parts will have a serial# on it as well, and possibly place of origin

 

[Soulfly]

And that's a major part of the problem; being forced to take the word, to any extent, of people who have lied to the world in the past. I beg to differ about Western vested interests however. The West clearly wants Russian influence out of Ukraine, and if this situation helps to achieve that, then I think it's possible, likely even, that they would be economic with the truth.

Perhaps the bigger problem is you want or expect that they are lying to you. I'm sure you have lied in the past, so no one here should take anything you say seriously.

 

[Soulfly]

We should be able to find the missle tube and motor parts. Each of these parts will have a serial# on it as well, and possibly place of origin

But at the crash site?

 

[Jason]

But at the crash site?

Should be in the vacinity of where the plane came down. It could be anywhere in the 9 miles of debri from the accident.

 

[WeedWhacker]

None of those above have to do with missile launchers in Ukraine. There are actual photos, and eyewitnesses...non-government witnesses.

And...."Libya"???

 

[jonnyH]

Should be in the vacinity of where the plane came down. It could be anywhere in the 9 miles of debri from the accident.

If the missile has a different speed and trajectory to the plane and detonates in proximity to the plane without actually hitting it, surely it could end up some distance from the plane's debris field.

 

[JeffreyNotGeoffrey]

Really? Yellow cake? Saddam's WMDs? 45 seconds to launch an attack on London? Christopher Stevens in Libya? All of these events involved official lies and/or cover ups and or 'economy with the truth' for vested political interests. As for your reference to lies, there is clearly a difference in scope between lies of a insignificant nature and lies that lead to war and the deaths of millions. You should be careful not to 'throw the baby out with the bathwater' in your dislike of "conspiracy theories".

Nor should you throw the baby out with the bath water with government info. Am I to take the weather channel severe weather alerts with a grain of salt and double check because the government has lied before?

 

[Sgt.Tinfoil]

Just found this in the other forum. The picture gives a good argument that BUK was in Torez

The reference picture is from somebodys joyride in Torez city from youtube. You can see the place at 1:01

 

[Jason]

If the missile has a different speed and trajectory to the plane and detonates in proximity to the plane without actually hitting it, surely it could end up some distance from the plane's debris field.

The trajectory could be a factor, whether its approach was from behind or head on. That could possibly factor into its location, and it depends on how long the plane stayed airborne after it was struck. So I stand corrected, sorry soulfly. I retract my answer.

 

[Jason]

Just found this in the other forum. The picture gives a good argument that BUK was in Torez

The reference picture is from somebodys joyride in Torez city from youtube. You can see the place at 1:01

That doesn't look like the same location. First of all in the video the shop with the yellow banner is on the right side of the car as its driving up the street, and that puts the apartment building with the advertisement on the left side. If you're driving up the road with the shop on your right, then that apartment bldg should be behind you, not in front of you.

Also if you go to .59 or 1.00 minute, you will notice there isn't a yellow banner that continues after the shop like in the still video. There are white phone booths and a yellow bldg next to the corner shop but in the still photo the attached bldg looks blueish.

 

[Mick West]

That doesn't look like the same location. First of all in the video the shop with the yellow banner is on the right side of the car as its driving up the street, and that puts the apartment building with the advertisement on the left side. If you're driving up the road with the shop on your right, then that apartment bldg should be behind you, not in front of you.

Also if you go to .59 or 1.00 minute, you will notice there isn't a yellow banner that continues after the shop like in the still video. There are white phone booths and a yellow bldg next to the corner shop but in the still photo the attached bldg looks blueish.

I think you need to look again. It all seems to match exactly to me. It's just viewed from the other side.

 

[Jason]

I think you need to look again. It all seems to match exactly to me. It's just viewed from the other side.

Oh, now I see it, coming up the other street from the opposite direction. I didn't see a street over there with the trees blocking it.

 

[Mick West]

In case any more was needed there, check out the trees and the double headed light-pole.

Flip and overlay:

It's 100% the same place. Torez.

 

[Mick West]

Just found this in the other forum.

Which other forum was that?

 

[jonnyH]

That doesn't look like the same location.

It is, its here:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@48.024025,38.6145549,320m/data=!3m1!1e3

the photo was taken from under the red roofed shelter.

 

[Jason]

In case any more was needed there, check out the trees and the double headed light-pole.

Flip and overlay:

It's 100% the same place. Torez.

So what does this mean then or imply?

 

[Sgt.Tinfoil]

Which other forum was that?

militaryphotos.net There are two massive threads about Ukraine other one gets like one post per minute from different sources which I have found really handy to keep up with the war almost realtime. There are lots of Russian speaking people too so they kinda translates what is going in their media/Ukrainian media and I get some idea where, when and some backround about youtube videos which are in foreign language etc. etc. etc.

 

[Pete Tar]

So where's Torez, where is it claimed to be taken?

 

[Mick West]

So where's Torez, where is it claimed to be taken?

Six miles south of the crash zone.

 

[Jason]

Six miles south of the crash zone.

Is this location controlled by the Separatist, Ukranians because it seems Donestk Oblast is "supposed" to be controlled by the proRussian groups. Also the photo of Sniznhe has the buk on a flatbed truck and its not on one in Torez. Is it likely we are looking at separate buk systems here.

 

[Mick West]

Is this location controlled by the Separatist, Ukranians because it seems Donestk Oblast is "supposed" to be controlled by the proRussian groups. Also the photo of Sniznhe has the buk on a flatbed truck and its not on one in Torez. Is it likely we are looking at separate buk systems here.

Yes, that's separatist territory. Right in the DPR
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk_People's_Republic

The Torez photo is of a Buk on a flatbed truck.

 

[Pete Tar]

I'm a little confused because I though Sgt. Tinfoil was using that as evidence the rebels didn't have possession of it. What was the original claim of it's location, or was that never made?

 

[Mick West]

I'm a little confused because I though Sgt. Tinfoil was using that as evidence the rebels didn't have possession of it. What was the original claim of it's location, or was that never made?

There seem to be a few different things here. But a key point is that there was one in Torez, close enough to shoot down the plane. Then there are various accounts of Buks moving towards Russia, or in Russia.

 

[Sgt.Tinfoil]

I'm a little confused because I though Sgt. Tinfoil was using that as evidence the rebels didn't have possession of it.

Sgt.Tinfoil likes facts and evidence. Sgt.Tinfoil did not know where the picture was taken or when thus he was not sure was it even separatists, Russian, Ukranian or even Romanian BUK. And for the record Sgt.Tinfoil made a claim that Donetsk Republic denied having a BUK but the Lugansk Republic did made a claim to have posession of that weaponry.

What was the original claim of it's location, or was that never made?

From the original article I believe it is this:

He showed a photograph which he said was a BUK-M1 system identified on the streets of Donetsk city - near the crash site - on July 17.

 

[TEEJ]

http://stat.multimedia.mil.ru/multimedia/photo/gallery.htm?id=17402@cmsPhotoGallery

official site of russian army

on the last picture they claim it's from Krasnoarmeysk which is under ukrainian control from 11th May, I don't think they would put it on official site without checking it

I actually don't think that they have checked it. I think that the Russian military have simply taken the claim on social media as fact. The bill board apparently shows advertising for a car dealership with showrooms across Ukraine. Surely if it is in Krasnoarmeysk then it should be fairly easy for that person in social media making the claim to visit the exact spot and provide photographic proof?

Google translation of Arsen Avakovs' Facebook page where the claim was made. Later in the comments he corrects the location as Lugansk.

Arsen Avakov is Minster of Internal Affairs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsen_Avakov_(politician)

https://www.facebook.com/arsen.avakov.1/posts/670837696339673

Claims in some comments that overhead trolley lines can be seen in the video. Claimed that Krasnoarmeysk does not have trolley buses.

In the video you can see cables that are claimed to be the trolley lines.

 

[TEEJ]

Thanks for posting the larger images of the Buk in Torez. You can clearly see it loaded on the back of the trailer. Previous to that I had thought it was sitting on its own.

Is that the same stencil/graphics strip on the truck of the trailer? I've marked them with arrows.

 

[Jason]

Boolmberg Business week discusses the system used to take down MH 17, and how the Buk system typically comprises of 3 vehicles. The SA-11 Glady uses a target-acquisition radar used to identify aerial objectives, a command post housing control systems and data displays, and a launcher armed with four radar-guided missiles. But you don't need all 3 vehicles to operate the buk launcher and by operating it alone without the other assets is a sure way to make a mistake in target acquisition. The Buk Launcher has a built in radar which is used to acquire and track targets, but doesn't have the ability to distinguish whether the target is a "friend or foe". http://www.businessweek.com/news/20...-flight-mh17-will-have-left-widespread-traces

Proximity Fuse
Missiles fired from a mobile Buk surface-to-air launcher system are equipped with a proximity fuse that emits radio waves which are reflected back by the target, detonating the warhead at the point when it is closest to its quarry. Coverage extends up to 72,000 feet with a 32 kilometer (20 mile) range.

The firing battery for the Buk system, known as the SA-11 Gadfly under NATO naming protocols, comprises three vehicles -- a target-acquisition radar used to identify aerial objectives, a command post housing control systems and data displays, and a launcher armed with four radar-guided missiles.

While all three vehicles usually operate together, the Buk launcher can also work alone, acquiring targets via a built-in radar normally used just for tracking.

The risk of hitting the wrong target is then increased because the launcher's "identification friend or foe" system cannot tell if an unrecognized plane is actually a jetliner, according to Richardson, himself a former missile engineer.

The U.S. has indicated it believes that Russia supplied the missile that downed MH17, though Russian Ambassador to Malaysia Lyudmila Vorobyeva said at a news conference in Kuala Lumpur that it played no role and that Ukrainian separatists don't have the required long-range anti-aircraft weapons.

 

[Mick West]

Posted on Twitter

Source: http://std3.ru/de/2e/1406044749-de2e48df022def402617c93cb666333f.jpeg

Presumably this indicates where the video was taken, but I can't read the Russian place names.

 

[Master Yoda]

This appears to be in Luhansk, separatist territory.

 

[Mick West]

This appears to be in Luhansk, separatist territory.

Here, about 40 miles to the North East of the crash site
https://www.google.com/maps/@48.5447808,39.2651895,659m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

[Hevach]

So those "trolley wires" aren't trolley wires after all (in case the absence of trolley tracks in the original pictures wasn't enough). In the bottom left image, the thing hanging over the road suspended by three wires (supposedly a trolley wire) appears to be visible in the overhead shot as a white object near the top-left corner of the portall.tv billboard.

I can't tell if it's a street light or just a 3-way junction between the poles beside the road, but it's obvious from the big picture it's just part of the road lighting system.

 

[Pete Tar]

That's a car.
(top left or top right?)

 

[Mick West]

So those "trolley wires" aren't trolley wires after all (in case the absence of trolley tracks in the original pictures wasn't enough). In the bottom left image, the thing hanging over the road suspended by three wires (supposedly a trolley wire) appears to be visible in the overhead shot as a white object near the top-left corner of the portall.tv billboard.

I can't tell if it's a street light or just a 3-way junction between the poles beside the road, but it's obvious from the big picture it's just part of the road lighting system.

Not too important, but they do actually appear to be trolley bus lines. This is down the road a bit:
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/53027972

 

[Hama Neggs]

Electric bus.

http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-10750996/stock-photo-trolley-bus-in-ostrava-czech-republic.html