The Origins of AAWSAP

[Mendel]

My thought is that this could explain why there is such a mess around AATIP, and such resistance to releasing documents and so on. That it was some real form of program that did things beside UFO stuff, things that has to be kept secret by USG. Things inspired by the UFO theories maybe.

Thanks for explaining that a bit more in depth.

It's an interesting speculation, but I'd like to see more evidence before I'd consider it likely.

 

[MonkeeSage]

I just don't understand why Elizondo would show up suddenly in 2017 and make a scene and call himself director of AATIP. Did he plan it already in 2009, or maybe he didn't know the real name?

As for why he came out in 2017, it's explicitly spelled out in his book Imminent that it was part of an influence campaign to force Congress to act to create a new program (which ended up working and UAP Task Force was created with Jay Stratton leading).

We also discussed a plan I developed to get the issue before Congress and the American people in the event Lue resigned. [...] Once Lue made his fateful decision to resign in protest, we immediately launched a concerted effort to get him and this critical information about UAP to Congress, the press, and the American people.

Source: Chris Mellon, Foreword to Imminent, p. 20.

At work, Jay Stratton and I made a plan that would go against all odds. A plan to bring about disclosure. I would resign and go public with the mission of bringing as much attention and credibility to the issue as possible. Jay would stay with the government and use the momentum gained by the public attention to move the ball forward within the government and brief any and all officials who would no doubt suddenly be interested. They had to learn the truth, and Jay would be positioned to inform them on a classified level. And he'd be positioned to run whatever version of AATIP came next. I'd also help educate Congress and facilitate introducing them to credible military and IC members who'd had UAP encounters. We would continue to work together, from different sides of the fence, to bring about disclosure and look out for the best interest of the American people and, frankly, humanity at large.

Source: Luis Elizondo, Imminent, p. 221.

Mellon has also discussed how that plan played out in a Gizmodo article.

Mellon says that after learning of the extent of UFO sightings by U.S. pilots, he wanted to spread the word about the issue. "I came up with a simple plan to do that, which involved going to the press and going to Congress," said Mellon. [...]

The way Mellon explains it, the pivotal New York Times story that is largely credited with helping legitimize UFOs within the broader culture never would have happened without his direct involvement. "This was not investigative journalism," Mellon tells me. "I handed them the evidence, introduced them to Lue Elizondo, gave them a stack of documents, arranged for them to meet and interview Harry Reid, and made a deal with them. They ran the story, which appeared on December 16 of 2017 on the front page."

Mellon says this was part of a broader plan on his part to spread the word about UFOs and to get Congress to take some sort of action on the matter.

Source: https://gizmodo.com/another-ufo-report-is-a-bust-so-why-do-so-many-people-1851331674

Rereading the Kona Blue document, I notice that they are talking about AATIP, or something similar, in classified documents, never AAWSAP. But in the older documents it is only AAWSAP, and not AATIP. So they weren't using it as a cover. I think it was a real program, or an attempt to a real program, or possibly that AAWSAP was a cover too.

After reviewing Reid's SAP request, DIA wrote in a memo to OUSDI dated November 13, 2009, that Reid was actually referring to AAWSAP as AATIP, and they could not justify a SAP for the program based on the unclassified nature of their deliverables and projected future products.

(U//FOUO) This info memo responds to your request for the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) [redacted] to evaluate a request from Senator Harry Reid (enclosure 1) to establish a restricted special access program (SAP) for the Advanced Aerospace Weapon Systems Application Program Contract, referred to in Senator Reid's letter as the Advanced Aerospace Threat and Identification Program (AATIP). In reviewing the deliverables to date and looking ahead to planned production in fiscal year (FY) 2010, DIA cannot find adequate justification to establish a restricted SAP.

(U//FOUO) All program documents delivered to during FY 2009 (the first year of the program) were unclassified because the contractor had not established a secure facility, and program employees were being vetted for clearances. In FY 2010, most research products will remain at the unclassified level. However, four to six of the original technical reports will be expanded to included classified data. These reports will focus on foreign research in a particular technology area and will likely be derivatively classified at the secret level. Based on classification levels of current and projected program deliverables, there are insufficient grounds to classify this open program, invoke alternative or compensatory control measures (ACCM), or establish a restricted SAP.

Source: https://documents2.theblackvault.co...-Review_of_Special_Access_Program_Request.pdf

In an information packet provided to DepSecDef sometime after November 17, 2009, James Clapper wrote the following summary.

Senator Harry Reid sent a letter to you on June 24, 2009 requesting the Department of Defense put the AAITP [sic] under 'Restricted Special Access Protection'(Tab A). The AAITP [sic] that SEN Reid refers to is officially the Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Application Program (AAWSAP) contract managed by DIA. Its primary purpose is to investigate revolutionary advances in future aerospace technologies with emphasis on research of unconventional and revolutionary technologies. The sole bid for the contract was from Bigelow Aerospace Advance Space Studies located in Las Vegas, NV. The resulting contract was for multiple sub-contractors to perform unclassified research in 11 technical areas and deliver technical reports on those areas by July 31, 2009. [redacted] directed a quality review of the technical reports that DIA completed in October 2009.

In late October 2009, DIA completed the technical review of the program deliverables (Tab B) and provided USD(I) SAPCO the current status of the AAWSAP. The program manager and his leadership advised that they saw no justification for Special Access protections based on the content of the FY09 deliverables or the anticipated FY10 work. This recommendation is formally stated and outlined in the attached memorandum from [redacted] (Tab C).

Senators Reid and Inouye co-sponsored a $10M earmark in the July 2008 supplemental to fund this DIA effort to look at potential future aerospace weapons threats. A $12M earmark has been allocated to support the program in FY2010.

Based on the recommendation from DIA and my staffs review of the technical reports, I recommend against establishing a Special Access Program at this time.

Source: https://documents2.theblackvault.co...09117-Final_Packet_Presented_to_DepSecDef.pdf

 

[boringrealit]

Unredacted bigot-list:

Source: https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/osd/20-F-0163.pdf

 

[boringrealit]

Btw, same source, this is from public affair operations (Gough?):

• Mr. Elizondo had no responsibilities with regard to the AATIP program while he worked in OUSDI, up until the time he resigned effective 10/4/2017

.• He started with OUSD(I) on 28-Sep-08 as an Intelligence Operations Specialist.The Advanced Aviation Threat Identification Program:
• The Advanced Aviation Threat Identification Program ended in 2012. It was determined that there were other, higher priority issues that merited funding and it was in the best interest of the DoD to make a change.

My boldings. The person calls it "Aviation" instead of "Aerospace" and talks about it as a real program with funding. I suspect that it was a real program, if not a SAP, or possibly still used as a cover-name for a real SAP-program.

But everyone, even Elizondo now, try to make us think it was just some silly side project.

 

[MonkeeSage]

Unredacted bigot-list:

View attachment 89903
Source: https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/osd/20-F-0163.pdf

Yeah, that is interesting as a data point, but it has actually been known for a few years.

John Greenwald originally received an almost fully redacted list.
https://documents2.theblackvault.co...090624_Reid_to_DEPSECDEF_ref_AAITP_in_SAP.pdf

George Knapp released a version with Elizondo and Hal Puthoff unredacted.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/ind...eid,_then_US_Senate_Majority_Leader,_2009.pdf

Last year Steven Greenstreet released a copy of the full unredacted list.
x.com/MiddleOfMayhem/status/1943347336278872149

It shows there was some kind of connection between Elizondo and AAWSAP, but really doesn't tell us any more than that. We already knew he was somehow related to AAWSAP from his mentions in Skinwalkers at the Pentagon by James Lacatski, Colm Kelleher and George Knapp, where Stratton was bringing him to dinners and he was telling them about his alleged psychic abilities, and kept in touch with Stratton (p. 63).

Further down the dinner table sat Luis Elizondo, who worked collaboratively with Axelrod and was at the office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence (USDI). Elizondo looked dapper with jet black hair and was considered a brilliant Special Agent and analyst with a lot of expertise on counterintelligence investigations. Little did anyone at that dinner table realize that nine years later Lue Elizondo would become a media star and a household name in global UAP investigations.

As he enjoyed his steak tartare, Elizondo regaled those around him with some war stories, including one hair-raising exploit about how his advanced intuition and remote viewing capabilities had saved his life and the life of his men while on a covert combat mission in war-torn Afghanistan. Lue was one of that rare breed, an astute, detail-oriented analyst with an open mind. After that dinner meeting and the briefing the following day, he kept in close touch with Jonathan Axelrod as the project progressed.

Btw, same source, this is from public affair operations (Gough?):

• Mr. Elizondo had no responsibilities with regard to the AATIP program while he worked in OUSDI, up until the time he resigned effective 10/4/2017

.• He started with OUSD(I) on 28-Sep-08 as an Intelligence Operations Specialist.The Advanced Aviation Threat Identification Program:
• The Advanced Aviation Threat Identification Program ended in 2012. It was determined that there were other, higher priority issues that merited funding and it was in the best interest of the DoD to make a change.

My boldings. The person calls it "Aviation" instead of "Aerospace" and talks about it as a real program with funding. I suspect that it was a real program, if not a SAP, or possibly still used as a cover-name for a real SAP-program.

But everyone, even Elizondo now, try to make us think it was just some silly side project.

The 2019 email you quote from the FOIA document (https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/osd/20-F-0163.pdf) is from pages 83-84 and begins with the statement, "I don't have an accurate accounting of his employment history with AATIP. I have been provided this statement from OUSD(I)." AAWSAP/AATIP was a DIA program so it's understandable that OSD public affairs would not have an accurate picture of the program.

In an email from 2019 on pp. 263-264, Neill Tipton, Elizondo's former boss at OUSDI said:

AATIP - "Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program" - name of the program initially created by Senators Reid and Inouye in 2008.

AAWSAP - "Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Application Program" - name of the contract that DIA executed and managed in accordance with the AATIP legislation.

To the questions that are being asked about Elizondo's purported role in AATIP. As Tara has said for Garry and as 1have said, Elizondo had no assigned responsibilities for this program. Elizondo worked for me from 2010 to early 2012. He worked for Garry for some years prior to his resignation from the government.

Of note and in the interest of absolute clarity:

I have seen one document that associates Elizondo with AATIP. It is a letter from Senator Reid's office, dated 24 June 2009 that requested a security assessment. It had an attachment with a list of names of proposed 'bigoted list of government personnel'. That list included Elizondo. That document was marked by Sen Reid's office as containing information exempt from mandatory disclosure under FOIA citing exemptions 1 and 5.

That letter from Senator Reid's office pre-dates Elizondo being assigned to my office. At the time he was assigned to me, he brought with him no responsibilities for AATIP (and I was unaware of its existence).

That one document is the only written association of Elizondo with AATIP, it has nothing about who is 'in charge' of AATIP, and as we've said he had no responsibilities for the program while under my or Garry Reid's oversight.

This is again a confusion about the relationship of AAWSAP/AATIP, but that is clarified in the much earlier DIA and USD Clapper memos from the time the program was active, cited previously. But it does show his actual bosses had no knowledge of him working for AAWSAP/AATIP.

Per Lacatski in Skinwalkers at the Pentagon, p. 145, AAWSAP/AATIP run for the duration of its contract and was shut down, leading them to look for other funding, leading them to DHS and the Kona Blue proposal.

The Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Applications Program (AAWSAP) ran for just over two years, including a three month no-cost-extension that concluded on December 21, 2010. Even as the program was shut down at DIA, AAWSAP principals began looking for alternative locations at which to house what had become both a highly successful program but also a political hot potato. Several attempts were made by members of AAWSAP in 2011 to secure a place at the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) after the shutdown of the effort at DIA. They are described in this and the next chapter.

This agrees with the DIA memos:

(U//FOUO) In November, 2009, Deputy Secretary of Defense Lynn and I met with Senator Reid to discuss this program. At that time, we determined the reports were of limited value to DIA. However, I did suggest they could be of merit to other organizations and that upon the completion of the DIA contract; the project could be transitioned to another agency or component better suited to oversee the project.

Source: https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/dia/AAWSAP/U-10-2552CE-IM-ATL.pdf

And the DHS memos:

(U) In a December 2009 meeting, LTG Burgess, Director of DIA and former DoD Deputy Sec. William Lynn communicated to Senator Reid that the DIA program could not be conducted by the Intelligence Community due to its potential growth. In addition, per an (undated) Info Memo, Subject: Advanced Aerospace Threat and Identification Program/U-10-2552/CE, from LTG Burgess to OoO U/S for AT&L, it was cited that the initial effort was insufficient to classify the program or establish a special access program and recommended that the program could be better suited for another agency or component.

Source: https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/osd/konablue-release1.pdf (p. 45)

After the Kona Blue PSAP at DHS was rejected in December of 2011 (see pages 50-52 of the above document), the paper trail for AAWSAP/AATIP ends. I have not seen any primary sources that indicate Elizondo had any relationship with the actual AAWSAP program except his inclusion in Reid's proposed bigot list for the rejected AATIP SAP, or that AATIP was a separate program that was ever funded apart from the AAWSAP program. So I am inclined to believe Lacatski when he claims the Elizondo/Stratton "AATIP" was not a real program and was an informal effort they engaged in while keeping the nickname after AAWSAP ended.

Even in Elizondo's version of the story, it sounds like they had no funding for their version of "AATIP" after the AAWSAP contract ended and were just doing it on their own budget and time.

Long story short, Jay ran point on pulling off miracle after miracle and succeeded in getting Senator Reid to give us new funding—$10 million! We rejoiced for all of ten minutes, until we learned that another DoD program had absconded the funds. Jay and I felt kicked in the teeth. This happened because the language on the funding bill was ambiguous enough for someone in a powerful position to justify kicking the money to another line item.
To make matters worse, the world's biggest catch-22 hung over our heads. We knew who had taken the money, and how he expected to use the funds. We just couldn't openly fight for our money. If we did, we would expose the program. If we didn't fight for the money, we would have no other funding source.
Neill Tipton urged me to speak to his boss, John Pede, who was no stranger to black budgets. When I bumped into Pede in the hallway and
explained the situation, he said, "Damn, Lue, wish I had known earlier. I know the money you're asking about; it's being used to pay for some
academic studies. Had I known earlier, I could have helped."
He was right. We had kept our "bigoted" list of AATIP's members and allies small. We were afraid to make some people aware of the effort. I guess we might have been overly protective of the topic, so protective that we lost the money we needed to continue.
"I wish I could tell you what we need it for, but I am not at liberty to discuss the details at this time," I told Pede.
He smiled. "Believe it or not, I think I know what you are working on," he said, winking. Pede always struck me as having a brilliant mind. I suspected maybe he really did know.
Officially, we were on the skids, but we knew we could make it work on a shoestring. I had my own modest budget, and we could probably request other small funding disbursements on a case-by-case basis through a government process called "Overguidance."

Source: Imminent, pp. 112-113.

 

[Mendel]

Btw, same source, this is from public affair operations (Gough?):

• Mr. Elizondo had no responsibilities with regard to the AATIP program while he worked in OUSDI, up until the time he resigned effective 10/4/2017

.• He started with OUSD(I) on 28-Sep-08 as an Intelligence Operations Specialist.The Advanced Aviation Threat Identification Program:
• The Advanced Aviation Threat Identification Program ended in 2012. It was determined that there were other, higher priority issues that merited funding and it was in the best interest of the DoD to make a change.

My boldings. The person calls it "Aviation" instead of "Aerospace" and talks about it as a real program with funding. I suspect that it was a real program, if not a SAP, or possibly still used as a cover-name for a real SAP-program.

But everyone, even Elizondo now, try to make us think it was just some silly side project.

We've talked about this before, it'd be really great if you read up on the links I gave you previously.
There are numerous conflicting sources, and you really need to consider who knew what when, and what the primary sources are. Public Affairs is trying to answer a request years after the fact, and because of all the obfuscation (and because the project had options for 4 years, but was only extended once), their answer is not accurate.

Your first 2 points were probably pulled from an employee database, and they support that Elizondo kept his UFO activities under the radar of his superiors.

But you really cannot cherry-pick your sources; you quote my timeline in your initial post in this thread, and these are really all of the sources you need to consider together to be able to resolve the contradictions. You can't just choose them at your whim.

 

[boringrealit]

Yeah, that is interesting as a data point, but it has actually been known for a few years.

John Greenwald originally received an almost fully redacted list.
https://documents2.theblackvault.co...090624_Reid_to_DEPSECDEF_ref_AAITP_in_SAP.pdf

George Knapp released a version with Elizondo and Hal Puthoff unredacted.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/ind...eid,_then_US_Senate_Majority_Leader,_2009.pdf

Last year Steven Greenstreet released a copy of the full unredacted list.
x.com/MiddleOfMayhem/status/1943347336278872149

It shows there was some kind of connection between Elizondo and AAWSAP, but really doesn't tell us any more than that. We already knew he was somehow related to AAWSAP from his mentions in Skinwalkers at the Pentagon by James Lacatski, Colm Kelleher and George Knapp, where Stratton was bringing him to dinners and he was telling them about his alleged psychic abilities, and kept in touch with Stratton (p. 63).

Further down the dinner table sat Luis Elizondo, who worked collaboratively with Axelrod and was at the office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence (USDI). Elizondo looked dapper with jet black hair and was considered a brilliant Special Agent and analyst with a lot of expertise on counterintelligence investigations. Little did anyone at that dinner table realize that nine years later Lue Elizondo would become a media star and a household name in global UAP investigations.

As he enjoyed his steak tartare, Elizondo regaled those around him with some war stories, including one hair-raising exploit about how his advanced intuition and remote viewing capabilities had saved his life and the life of his men while on a covert combat mission in war-torn Afghanistan. Lue was one of that rare breed, an astute, detail-oriented analyst with an open mind. After that dinner meeting and the briefing the following day, he kept in close touch with Jonathan Axelrod as the project progressed.

The 2019 email you quote from the FOIA document (https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/osd/20-F-0163.pdf) is from pages 83-84 and begins with the statement, "I don't have an accurate accounting of his employment history with AATIP. I have been provided this statement from OUSD(I)." AAWSAP/AATIP was a DIA program so it's understandable that OSD public affairs would not have an accurate picture of the program.

In an email from 2019 on pp. 263-264, Neill Tipton, Elizondo's former boss at OUSDI said:

AATIP - "Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program" - name of the program initially created by Senators Reid and Inouye in 2008.

AAWSAP - "Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Application Program" - name of the contract that DIA executed and managed in accordance with the AATIP legislation.

To the questions that are being asked about Elizondo's purported role in AATIP. As Tara has said for Garry and as 1have said, Elizondo had no assigned responsibilities for this program. Elizondo worked for me from 2010 to early 2012. He worked for Garry for some years prior to his resignation from the government.

Of note and in the interest of absolute clarity:

I have seen one document that associates Elizondo with AATIP. It is a letter from Senator Reid's office, dated 24 June 2009 that requested a security assessment. It had an attachment with a list of names of proposed 'bigoted list of government personnel'. That list included Elizondo. That document was marked by Sen Reid's office as containing information exempt from mandatory disclosure under FOIA citing exemptions 1 and 5.

That letter from Senator Reid's office pre-dates Elizondo being assigned to my office. At the time he was assigned to me, he brought with him no responsibilities for AATIP (and I was unaware of its existence).

That one document is the only written association of Elizondo with AATIP, it has nothing about who is 'in charge' of AATIP, and as we've said he had no responsibilities for the program while under my or Garry Reid's oversight.

This is again a confusion about the relationship of AAWSAP/AATIP, but that is clarified in the much earlier DIA and USD Clapper memos from the time the program was active, cited previously. But it does show his actual bosses had no knowledge of him working for AAWSAP/AATIP.

Per Lacatski in Skinwalkers at the Pentagon, p. 145, AAWSAP/AATIP run for the duration of its contract and was shut down, leading them to look for other funding, leading them to DHS and the Kona Blue proposal.

The Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Applications Program (AAWSAP) ran for just over two years, including a three month no-cost-extension that concluded on December 21, 2010. Even as the program was shut down at DIA, AAWSAP principals began looking for alternative locations at which to house what had become both a highly successful program but also a political hot potato. Several attempts were made by members of AAWSAP in 2011 to secure a place at the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) after the shutdown of the effort at DIA. They are described in this and the next chapter.

This agrees with the DIA memos:

(U//FOUO) In November, 2009, Deputy Secretary of Defense Lynn and I met with Senator Reid to discuss this program. At that time, we determined the reports were of limited value to DIA. However, I did suggest they could be of merit to other organizations and that upon the completion of the DIA contract; the project could be transitioned to another agency or component better suited to oversee the project.

Source: https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/dia/AAWSAP/U-10-2552CE-IM-ATL.pdf

And the DHS memos:

(U) In a December 2009 meeting, LTG Burgess, Director of DIA and former DoD Deputy Sec. William Lynn communicated to Senator Reid that the DIA program could not be conducted by the Intelligence Community due to its potential growth. In addition, per an (undated) Info Memo, Subject: Advanced Aerospace Threat and Identification Program/U-10-2552/CE, from LTG Burgess to OoO U/S for AT&L, it was cited that the initial effort was insufficient to classify the program or establish a special access program and recommended that the program could be better suited for another agency or component.

Source: https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/osd/konablue-release1.pdf (p. 45)

After the Kona Blue PSAP at DHS was rejected in December of 2011 (see pages 50-52 of the above document), the paper trail for AAWSAP/AATIP ends. I have not seen any primary sources that indicate Elizondo had any relationship with the actual AAWSAP program except his inclusion in Reid's proposed bigot list for the rejected AATIP SAP, or that AATIP was a separate program that was ever funded apart from the AAWSAP program. So I am inclined to believe Lacatski when he claims the Elizondo/Stratton "AATIP" was not a real program and was an informal effort they engaged in while keeping the nickname after AAWSAP ended.

Even in Elizondo's version of the story, it sounds like they had no funding for their version of "AATIP" after the AAWSAP contract ended and were just doing it on their own budget and time.

Long story short, Jay ran point on pulling off miracle after miracle and succeeded in getting Senator Reid to give us new funding—$10 million! We rejoiced for all of ten minutes, until we learned that another DoD program had absconded the funds. Jay and I felt kicked in the teeth. This happened because the language on the funding bill was ambiguous enough for someone in a powerful position to justify kicking the money to another line item.
To make matters worse, the world's biggest catch-22 hung over our heads. We knew who had taken the money, and how he expected to use the funds. We just couldn't openly fight for our money. If we did, we would expose the program. If we didn't fight for the money, we would have no other funding source.
Neill Tipton urged me to speak to his boss, John Pede, who was no stranger to black budgets. When I bumped into Pede in the hallway and
explained the situation, he said, "Damn, Lue, wish I had known earlier. I know the money you're asking about; it's being used to pay for some
academic studies. Had I known earlier, I could have helped."
He was right. We had kept our "bigoted" list of AATIP's members and allies small. We were afraid to make some people aware of the effort. I guess we might have been overly protective of the topic, so protective that we lost the money we needed to continue.
"I wish I could tell you what we need it for, but I am not at liberty to discuss the details at this time," I told Pede.
He smiled. "Believe it or not, I think I know what you are working on," he said, winking. Pede always struck me as having a brilliant mind. I suspected maybe he really did know.
Officially, we were on the skids, but we knew we could make it work on a shoestring. I had my own modest budget, and we could probably request other small funding disbursements on a case-by-case basis through a government process called "Overguidance."

Source: Imminent, pp. 112-113.

I was mostly interested in the bit about it (or something under its name) being funded till 2012.

I agree that OSD probably didn't have a clear understanding of who was employed by some program under DIA, besides what Tipton mentioned about the list, but they should be able to find out the funding at least, I think. It might of course been some sloppy research on their part too.

But your mention of Tipton is interesting, because his and Elizondo's story doesn't fit. Elizondo described how Tipton knew what he was doing. On page 38 in the document Tipton writes "Thanks Lue. All good - although, at some point I need to know what this actually "is" ...." That is August 25, 2017.

In Elizondo's book he writes on page 191 that Tipton was briefed and was even going to take over running AATIP after Elizondo (the argument was something about rank and authority, not sure how Tipton ranked against Stratton back then). So either Elizondo or Tipton is lying. Even though Tipton is guarding himself a bit in the text you quoted above "That one document is the only written association of Elizondo with AATIP".

So if Elizondo is the one honest here, then Tipton was briefed in 2017, after that mail. I can't really see why Elizondo would lie about that part. I can see many reason why Tipton would want to lie, but I'm not sure which one is the correct one, if any.

 

[Mendel]

I was mostly interested in the bit about it (or something under its name) being funded till 2012.

Yes. And we learned from Elizondo and Lacatski who directed the project that it only had funding until 2010.
We only have reports from BAASS until 2010.
We have the Kona Blue records that prove the effort to gain new funding.

And we have the 2008 solicitation with 4 one-year extension options, which some PR person glanced at and mentally calculates to span 2008-2012.
We also have a dearth of documentation on AAWSAP overall, and obviously none on AATIP, which precludes the PR office from finding it. (Kinda the same situation as with the USG-held UFOs: can't find what doesn't exist.)

The 2012 number entered the record later, via people who had no direct knowledge, and it is contradicted by better sources. That means it should be discarded in favor of 2010, which is backed up by diverse better sources.

 

[MonkeeSage]

I was mostly interested in the bit about it (or something under its name) being funded till 2012.

I agree that OSD probably didn't have a clear understanding of who was employed by some program under DIA, besides what Tipton mentioned about the list, but they should be able to find out the funding at least, I think. It might of course been some sloppy research on their part too.

But your mention of Tipton is interesting, because his and Elizondo's story does fit. Elizondo described how Tipton knew what he was doing. On page 38 in the document Tipton writes "Thanks Lue. All good - although, at some point I need to know what this actually "is" ...." That is August 25, 2017.

In Elizondo's book he writes on page 191 that Tipton was briefed and was even going to take over running AATIP after Elizondo (the argument was something about rank and authority, not sure how Tipton ranked against Stratton back then). So either Elizondo or Tipton is lying. Even though Tipton is guarding himself a bit in the text you quoted above "That one document is the only written association of Elizondo with AATIP".

So if Elizondo is the one honest here, then Tipton was briefed in 2017, after that mail. I can't really see why Elizondo would lie about that part. I can see many reason why Tipton would want to lie, but I'm not sure which one is the correct one, if any.

Those are good points. The email exchanges between Tipton and Elizondo on pages 37-39 (starting from 39 and reading up, as the replies are all top posted so the bottom is the first email in the chain) and then page 24 (with 24 coming next after 37) are the relevant ones in https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/osd/20-F-0163.pdf.

The emails all took place over a short period between August 22nd and October 3rd. Sorry this is a bit long but I feel it's important to go through them understand the timeline and who knew what, when.

The first email (p. 39) Elizondo requests a "Program Meeting" about "our collective efforts" (Elizondo, with Stratton as the "Navy counterpart" perhaps) and Tipton accommodates.

Then the next email (p. 38) Elizondo is saying he thinks Tipton can "take our effort to the next level". Then we have Elizondo speculating that Tipton had already guessed Elizondo was working on a "nuanced" effort, and had been when he had previously worked under Tipton, seemingly because Elizondo had talked about UFOs and video with Tipton (the Navy videos that Mellon later leaked to the NY Times?). Elizondo talks about his "portfolio" and a "facility" Tipton will be able to use (one of the Bigelow properties mentioned in the Kona Blue proposal?)

Tipton's reply (p. 38) seems cordial for the vote of confidence, but confused by Elizondo's statements.

Then we have Elizondo in a new chain (p. 37 and also 25 is a duplicate page) about an "Update" requesting further discussion and mentions a "friend of the program" Tipton will be speaking to. Tipton appears to confirm he will have a discussion with a person the next day and he gives his availability to discuss further with Elizondo (though the email header is cut off so we don't actually have the date when the reply was sent).

Then a new chain from Elizondo (p. 24) about an unclassified draft letter. Most of Elizondo's email is redacted, but we can recover most of it from email included in a prior FOIA release (https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/navy/DON-NAVY-2021-007793.pdf p. 29). The subject is "DRAFT DepSECDEF letter (UNCLASSIFIED)" and Elizondo mentions creating a draft letter, apparently umprompted ("took the liberty") to help Tipton take over responsibilities for AATIP. So Elizondo does mention AATIP explicitly. Tipton's reply is that he has not read it but will do so and reply with thoughts that day or the next. That's the last email, from October 3rd, 2017.

In another FOIA document we learn from a memo from Garry Reid (Elizondo's boss, no relation to Harry Reid) that Elizondo abruptly resigned on October 3rd (https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/osd/18-F-0324.pdf p. 8).

Elizondo's resignation letter is terse (ibid, p. 6). He provides a longer "memo for record" on the next day (p. 7) stating his resignation is due to "beuacratic challanges and inflexible mindsets" about "further research" on "the phenomena".

I think a plausible reading of this chain of events is that Tipton had no idea what Elizondo was talking about, and after realizing, he wanted no part of it (because he didn't believe, or he thought it was beyond his paygrade or need to know, or whatever other reasons), which caused Elizondo to resign in protest when Tipton did not want to help take their "efforts" and "portfolio" to the "next level".

On this interpretation, I do not see contradiction with Tipton's previous statement about himself and Garry Reid being unaware of any AATIP program while Elizondo worked for them. Tipton could have been using guarded language about exactly when he knew about AATIP, as Elizondo seemingly told him about it in the days leading up to his retirement, but wouldn't change the overall impact of the statement regarding Elizondo's official duties under himself and Reid.

This interpretation also does not require Elizondo to be explicitly lying. In a previous quote from Imminent regarding budget, he presumed that Tipton's old boss, Pede, had figured out what Elizondo was "really" working on, with a knowing wink. He may have sincerely thought Tipton knew about his "nuanced efforts" and was on board because of their passing chit-chat about UFOs.

Another option would be that Elizondo was intentionally leaving a paper trail, having already decided to resign and implement the plan with Mellon and Stratton. Chris Mellon's email (https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/osd/20-F-0163.pdf p. 22) seems to be referring to the Tipton's emails (which are attached to his email) as a sort of leverage to get OSD/DoD not to push back on Elizondo's claims about AATIP.

Whatever the case may be on Elizondo's motives, I don't find anything here convincing that there was a real funded program that Elizondo ran/worked for.

 

[boringrealit]

Yes. And we learned from Elizondo and Lacatski who directed the project that it only had funding until 2010.
We only have reports from BAASS until 2010.
We have the Kona Blue records that prove the effort to gain new funding.

And we have the 2008 solicitation with 4 one-year extension options, which some PR person glanced at and mentally calculates to span 2008-2012.
We also have a dearth of documentation on AAWSAP overall, and obviously none on AATIP, which precludes the PR office from finding it. (Kinda the same situation as with the USG-held UFOs: can't find what doesn't exist.)

The 2012 number entered the record later, via people who had no direct knowledge, and it is contradicted by better sources. That means it should be discarded in favor of 2010, which is backed up by diverse better sources.

You are probably right, but I prefer to not discard anything that contradicts until I am sure it's just a mistake. To me the most interesting data is where there are contradictions, it might give an idea of where the conflict points are and a clue to people's motivations. I like to put the texts side by side to find the faultlines.

I find it interesting that Elizondo and Tipton disagree about what Tipton knew, or how Lacatski and Elizondo disagrees about AATIP, especially since they avoid as much as possible to call each other out, and how Elizondo's story has shifted over time.

My favorite conflict point however is WBers vs Lacatski. They are living in terror, fearing for their lives for what they know and have disclosed. Lacatski, on the other hand, sends his book to DOPSR and is allowed to say all sorts of outlandish things without any fear. That's some really interesting data.

 

[boringrealit]

Those are good points. The email exchanges between Tipton and Elizondo on pages 37-39 (starting from 39 and reading up, as the replies are all top posted so the bottom is the first email in the chain) and then page 24 (with 24 coming next after 37) are the relevant ones in https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/osd/20-F-0163.pdf.

The emails all took place over a short period between August 22nd and October 3rd. Sorry this is a bit long but I feel it's important to go through them understand the timeline and who knew what, when.

The first email (p. 39) Elizondo requests a "Program Meeting" about "our collective efforts" (Elizondo, with Stratton as the "Navy counterpart" perhaps) and Tipton accommodates.
View attachment 89937

Then the next email (p. 38) Elizondo is saying he thinks Tipton can "take our effort to the next level". Then we have Elizondo speculating that Tipton had already guessed Elizondo was working on a "nuanced" effort, and had been when he had previously worked under Tipton, seemingly because Elizondo had talked about UFOs and video with Tipton (the Navy videos that Mellon later leaked to the NY Times?). Elizondo talks about his "portfolio" and a "facility" Tipton will be able to use (one of the Bigelow properties mentioned in the Kona Blue proposal?)
View attachment 89938

Tipton's reply (p. 38) seems cordial for the vote of confidence, but confused by Elizondo's statements.
View attachment 89940

Then we have Elizondo in a new chain (p. 37 and also 25 is a duplicate page) about an "Update" requesting further discussion and mentions a "friend of the program" Tipton will be speaking to. Tipton appears to confirm he will have a discussion with a person the next day and he gives his availability to discuss further with Elizondo (though the email header is cut off so we don't actually have the date when the reply was sent).
View attachment 89941

Then a new chain from Elizondo (p. 24) about an unclassified draft letter. Most of Elizondo's email is redacted, but we can recover most of it from email included in a prior FOIA release (https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/navy/DON-NAVY-2021-007793.pdf p. 29). The subject is "DRAFT DepSECDEF letter (UNCLASSIFIED)" and Elizondo mentions creating a draft letter, apparently umprompted ("took the liberty") to help Tipton take over responsibilities for AATIP. So Elizondo does mention AATIP explicitly. Tipton's reply is that he has not read it but will do so and reply with thoughts that day or the next. That's the last email, from October 3rd, 2017.
View attachment 89942
View attachment 89943

In another FOIA document we learn from a memo from Garry Reid (Elizondo's boss, no relation to Harry Reid) that Elizondo abruptly resigned on October 3rd (https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/osd/18-F-0324.pdf p. 8).
View attachment 89946

Elizondo's resignation letter is terse (ibid, p. 6). He provides a longer "memo for record" on the next day (p. 7) stating his resignation is due to "beuacratic challanges and inflexible mindsets" about "further research" on "the phenomena".
View attachment 89947
View attachment 89948

I think a plausible reading of this chain of events is that Tipton had no idea what Elizondo was talking about, and after realizing, he wanted no part of it (because he didn't believe, or he thought it was beyond his paygrade or need to know, or whatever other reasons), which caused Elizondo to resign in protest when Tipton did not want to help take their "efforts" and "portfolio" to the "next level".

On this interpretation, I do not see contradiction with Tipton's previous statement about himself and Garry Reid being unaware of any AATIP program while Elizondo worked for them. Tipton could have been using guarded language about exactly when he knew about AATIP, as Elizondo seemingly told him about it in the days leading up to his retirement, but wouldn't change the overall impact of the statement regarding Elizondo's official duties under himself and Reid.

This interpretation also does not require Elizondo to be explicitly lying. In a previous quote from Imminent regarding budget, he presumed that Tipton's old boss, Pede, had figured out what Elizondo was "really" working on, with a knowing wink. He may have sincerely thought Tipton knew about his "nuanced efforts" and was on board because of their passing chit-chat about UFOs.

Another option would be that Elizondo was intentionally leaving a paper trail, having already decided to resign and implement the plan with Mellon and Stratton. Chris Mellon's email (https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/osd/20-F-0163.pdf p. 22) seems to be referring to the Tipton's emails (which are attached to his email) as a sort of leverage to get OSD/DoD not to push back on Elizondo's claims about AATIP.
View attachment 89949

Whatever the case may be on Elizondo's motives, I don't find anything here convincing that there was a real funded program that Elizondo ran/worked for.

Wow, nice job. It became much clearer what was going on. But I wish we had the names on who wrote what in the end of this one: https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/navy/DON-NAVY-2021-007793.pdf

I got a feeling that Tipton did his best to come up with excuses, but that might just be my imagination, since we have no idea if it was him or Elizondo that had scheduling issues.

I agree that it is possible that Tipton didn't know, or even didn't want to know, for some reason.

In the Imminent this episode is described at page 191-192. The people at the meeting was them plus some people called Shari and Brad. Not sure if those are their real names. Tipton agreed but delayed signing, and then went on some trip. Elizondo reacts very strange after that. As if the UAPs suddenly are an (imminent?) direct threat and not disclosing is"a security failure eclipsing that of 9/11".

This is what I mean with him suddenly jumping off and seeming desperate, but it makes no sense in context, at least not to me. Something is missing here.

There is also the paranoid behavior around the resignation letter. He say he wrote two, one for Garry Reid to give to Mattis, and one he sends directly to Mattis. I can understand if Reid got upset. Even in his own book Elizondo comes off as unhinged at this point.

Another thing. I have a suspicion that Elizondo wrote his book partly based on these emails. It's just a silly detail, mostly intuition, but he used the expression "nuanced" in the book when Tipton ask about what he is up to. Page 89 or maybe 90. Just my speculation.

 

[NorCal Dave]

My boldings. The person calls it "Aviation" instead of "Aerospace" and talks about it as a real program with funding. I suspect that it was a real program, if not a SAP, or possibly still used as a cover-name for a real SAP-program.

But everyone, even Elizondo now, try to make us think it was just some silly side project.

EDIT: Cross posted a bit with @MonkeeSage. My thread wasn't updating for some reason, so maybe a bit redundant

Even those in the UFO world that cling to the notion of Elizondo running an official government UFO program, still think it's just that, a government UFO program. You seem to have a unique take that AATIP and/or AAWSAP and Elizondo are related to some as yet unknown super secret project if I'm understanding you right. I don't see it.

As @MonkeeSage noted above in post #85 and as nearly all the available primary sources attest, the original program, that Reid arranged funding for and Lacatski wrote the RFP for, was called AAWSAP. It was administered by Lacatski from his position at DIA/DWO. The sole bidder was Bigelow's BAASS. I don't think that's in question.

As I noted up-thread, AAWSAP was a bit of a shell game with an RFP that requested papers on future aerospace technology, something Lacatski worked with, while actually providing BAASS with funding for a whole host of other activities, besides some actual technology papers. These other activities included UFOs, paranormal and other nonsense, but importantly it was providing funding to BAASS for things like work at Bigelow's Skinwalker Ranch and possibly funding for Bigelow to SCIF out a facility in Las Vegas. See link below to a thread discussing a questionable report from BAASS.

Exactly what BAASS did with the $22m is unclear, but they were paying staff and importantly paying rent on a facility in Las Vegas, among others. That facility was owned by Bigelow. This is a common tax trick often employed by professionals. A Medical Doctor may set up a professional practice and then a separate holding company that buys a building. The Dr's medical practice then rents the building from the same Dr's holding company. He rents from himself because of the tax advantages. It's a legal shell game

Bigelow was doing the same thing with BAASS, however, he was doing it with taxpayer money. And those taxpayer dollars Bigelow was running a shell game with, were being channeled by his fellow Nevadan, fellow church member and recipient of his campaign donations, Senator Reid. It could look a bit unsavory.

In addition there was the problem with the original RFP that created AAWSAP. It only asked for papers, but Bigelow was able to "read between the lines" of the RFP and provide what Lacatski and Reid really wanted, a UFO program centered around Bigelow's own Skinwalker Ranch. No other potential bidders understood this and as such, no other company bid on AAWSAP. Only Reid's campaign donor, Bigelow knew how to word the bid. Then there were people in the DIA and DoD that started to notice funds were going to things like UFOs. Again, it looks a bit unsavory.

So, Reid makes the request for SAP status, and to hide the name AAWSAP and potentially get even more people digging into what was going on, he and Lacatski come up with the name AATIP for the request. The request is denied and AAWSAP eventually lost funding. This is clear.

The confusing part happened when Elizondo and Stratton continued on looking for UFOs and using the name AATIP. The NYT ran with that and the 2 names became hopelessly intertwined. But even if AAWSAP became AATIP in an official capacity or AATIP was a sub program of AAWSAP, something for which there is little to no evidence, it was still associated with AAWSAP.

The idea that AAWSAP and /or AATIP were all just elaborate cover stories for some other secret programs is sketchy at best. There is some question as to what BAASS did with the $22m, but BAASS did receive it and BAASS received that money via Lacatski and AAWSAP. There is no record of AATIP funding anything, unless it's being confused with AAWSAP.

What do you think AATIP really was or was hiding?

Link to thread about BAASS report:

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/baass-ten-month-report-2009-leaked-document.14241/

 

[boringrealit]

Reading Elizondo's complain to IG is interesting after this discussion.

Two extra interesting things so far. AATIP lost their funding for year 2013 & 2014. And Elizondo mentions a bunch of people who could back up his claims about AATIP and his role as leader, including Tipton.

As a bonus, he mentions both Davis and Lacatski as people who could substantiate his role in AATIP. Maybe they could, but they won't. Both has said that he wasn't the leader/director. Davis somewhat more polite, but Lacatski has stated that AATIP wasn't even real.

This was in his mail to Gough. The part about AATIP's funding was in the history in the beginning.

He also mentioned in the history that he met with Mattis and briefed him on AATIP, which doesn't match his book, I think. At least I got the impression that he never got a chance to even contact his beloved Mattis there.

 

[boringrealit]

EDIT: Cross posted a bit with @MonkeeSage. My thread wasn't updating for some reason, so maybe a bit redundant

Even those in the UFO world that cling to the notion of Elizondo running an official government UFO program, still think it's just that, a government UFO program. You seem to have a unique take that AATIP and/or AAWSAP and Elizondo are related to some as yet unknown super secret project if I'm understanding you right. I don't see it.

As @MonkeeSage noted above in post #85 and as nearly all the available primary sources attest, the original program, that Reid arranged funding for and Lacatski wrote the RFP for, was called AAWSAP. It was administered by Lacatski from his position at DIA/DWO. The sole bidder was Bigelow's BAASS. I don't think that's in question.

As I noted up-thread, AAWSAP was a bit of a shell game with an RFP that requested papers on future aerospace technology, something Lacatski worked with, while actually providing BAASS with funding for a whole host of other activities, besides some actual technology papers. These other activities included UFOs, paranormal and other nonsense, but importantly it was providing funding to BAASS for things like work at Bigelow's Skinwalker Ranch and possibly funding for Bigelow to SCIF out a facility in Las Vegas. See link below to a thread discussing a questionable report from BAASS.

Exactly what BAASS did with the $22m is unclear, but they were paying staff and importantly paying rent on a facility in Las Vegas, among others. That facility was owned by Bigelow. This is a common tax trick often employed by professionals. A Medical Doctor may set up a professional practice and then a separate holding company that buys a building. The Dr's medical practice then rents the building from the same Dr's holding company. He rents from himself because of the tax advantages. It's a legal shell game

Bigelow was doing the same thing with BAASS, however, he was doing it with taxpayer money. And those taxpayer dollars Bigelow was running a shell game with, were being channeled by his fellow Nevadan, fellow church member and recipient of his campaign donations, Senator Reid. It could look a bit unsavory.

In addition there was the problem with the original RFP that created AAWSAP. It only asked for papers, but Bigelow was able to "read between the lines" of the RFP and provide what Lacatski and Reid really wanted, a UFO program centered around Bigelow's own Skinwalker Ranch. No other potential bidders understood this and as such, no other company bid on AAWSAP. Only Reid's campaign donor, Bigelow knew how to word the bid. Then there were people in the DIA and DoD that started to notice funds were going to things like UFOs. Again, it looks a bit unsavory.

So, Reid makes the request for SAP status, and to hide the name AAWSAP and potentially get even more people digging into what was going on, he and Lacatski come up with the name AATIP for the request. The request is denied and AAWSAP eventually lost funding. This is clear.

The confusing part happened when Elizondo and Stratton continued on looking for UFOs and using the name AATIP. The NYT ran with that and the 2 names became hopelessly intertwined. But even if AAWSAP became AATIP in an official capacity or AATIP was a sub program of AAWSAP, something for which there is little to no evidence, it was still associated with AAWSAP.

The idea that AAWSAP and /or AATIP were all just elaborate cover stories for some other secret programs is sketchy at best. There is some question as to what BAASS did with the $22m, but BAASS did receive it and BAASS received that money via Lacatski and AAWSAP. There is no record of AATIP funding anything, unless it's being confused with AAWSAP.

What do you think AATIP really was or was hiding?

Link to thread about BAASS report:

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/baass-ten-month-report-2009-leaked-document.14241/

I think Lacatski is mostly honest about AAWSAP. They made that database, those DIRDs, researched on the ranch, traveled to Brazil for some interviews or research, and so on.

My guess is that AATIP is as described in the Kona Blue presentation. Some sort of continuation of AAWSAP, but I honestly don't know. Everyone is acting so strange about it. I don't think Elizondo was the director at least.

Lacatski has mentioned that it was the third attempt when they tried to get the craft/material from Lockheed, so maybe each of these programs were attempts.

If I were to guess, it would be that AATIP was some nasty experiments on prisoners or similar serious secret, which is why so many conflicting stories grows from it.

 

[NorCal Dave]

If I were to guess, it would be that AATIP was some nasty experiments on prisoners or similar serious secret, which is why so many conflicting stories grows from it.

That's what I thought. I really don't see how you can arrive at that. Most of the discrepancies are explainable. AAWSAP was an actual funded program, set up by Lacatski and Reid, likely for Bigelow's benefit. I think they really believe this stuff. Lacatski seems to be overly impressed and influenced by the less than compelling, Search for the Skinwalker. A book by Knapp and Kelleher that chronicled Bigelow spending millions at Skinwalker Ranch with his private NIDS project. But he wanted government involvement for a variety of reasons, including supposed access to UFO parts and funding.

That Lacatski and Reid used the name AATIP in a letter to request SAP status is undisputed. If AATIP was a secret program about "nasty experiments", why use the name when trying to hide AAWSAP? Why even mention it? How would Lacatski even know about it? Makes no sense.

Elizondo and Stratton (who did do some work for AAWSAP on the government side) have said they used the name AATIP for their own internal program. A program that was un-official and un-funded. Again, why use the name AATIP if it refers to a program about torturing prisoners at GitMo? How would they know about it? And if they did, again, why use the name?

Lacatski and Reid originated the name AATIP and it became the public name for AAWSAP for many people. The NYT story only exaggerated this and we're stuck with it today. No matter how one thinks about it, AATIP is and has always been associated with AAWSAP and by extension BAASS and UFOs.

Any connection to "nasty experiments on prisoners or similar secret(s)" is completely un-evidenced and being pulled from thin air.

 

[Mendel]

Elizondo and Stratton (who did do some work for AAWSAP on the government side) have said they used the name AATIP for their own internal program. A program that was un-official and un-funded.

I would add that inasfar as Elizondo has referred to the 'AATIP portfolio' within AAWSAP, I take AATIP to refer to the UFO hunting part of AAWSAP, without the papers or the other paranormal things.

 

[NorCal Dave]

I would add that inasfar as Elizondo has referred to the 'AATIP portfolio' within AAWSAP, I take AATIP to refer to the UFO hunting part of AAWSAP, without the papers or the other paranormal things.

Maybe. Just me personally, I think that's Elizondo applying the name retroactively. AAWSAP had a UFO element. Some was internal with people like Stratton looking into things on the government side but it seems most was on the BAASS side. They had the investigators, they had the relationship with MUFON and they generated most of the UFO documents. Kurth alerted Kelleher at BAASS about the Nimitz/TicTak event and in turn Kelleher handed it over to Stratton (Axelrod) at AWWSAP who worked on it.

As AWWSAP closed down and the Elizondo/Stratton side-gig using the name AATIP got rolling, I think they just brought whatever UFO files they could get. Particularly military ones. One of the claims is that Lacatski handed over AWWSAP to Elizondo (post #12) and he decided to drop the Skinwalker Ranch stuff and just focus on UFOs, especially from military sources and changed or decided to use the name AATIP. I don't think that's likely, at least in the form it gets shared.

Did Lacatski alert Elizondo about AWWSAP losing funding and encourage him to keep looking into UFOs? Could be, but that's not exactly handing over the program. I think as they got AATIP going, they just applied the name to UFO hunting within their military surroundings. So, Stratton's work on the Nimitz encounter while he was working a bit at AAWSAP gets relabeled as work he did at AATIP. Just my take.

Regardless, AATIP is always part of AAWSAP, officially or not.

 

[jackfrostvc]

Then there is Elizondos presentation slide from years ago where he claims AAWSAP was renamed to AATIP.

I wonder if his whole involvement with the program AAWSAP was just through his normal role at the time. SAP authorisation or whatever it was, I've forgotten what it was exactly

 

[boringrealit]

That's what I thought. I really don't see how you can arrive at that. Most of the discrepancies are explainable. AAWSAP was an actual funded program, set up by Lacatski and Reid, likely for Bigelow's benefit. I think they really believe this stuff. Lacatski seems to be overly impressed and influenced by the less than compelling, Search for the Skinwalker. A book by Knapp and Kelleher that chronicled Bigelow spending millions at Skinwalker Ranch with his private NIDS project. But he wanted government involvement for a variety of reasons, including supposed access to UFO parts and funding.

That Lacatski and Reid used the name AATIP in a letter to request SAP status is undisputed. If AATIP was a secret program about "nasty experiments", why use the name when trying to hide AAWSAP? Why even mention it? How would Lacatski even know about it? Makes no sense.

Elizondo and Stratton (who did do some work for AAWSAP on the government side) have said they used the name AATIP for their own internal program. A program that was un-official and un-funded. Again, why use the name AATIP if it refers to a program about torturing prisoners at GitMo? How would they know about it? And if they did, again, why use the name?

Lacatski and Reid originated the name AATIP and it became the public name for AAWSAP for many people. The NYT story only exaggerated this and we're stuck with it today. No matter how one thinks about it, AATIP is and has always been associated with AAWSAP and by extension BAASS and UFOs.

Any connection to "nasty experiments on prisoners or similar secret(s)" is completely un-evidenced and being pulled from thin air.

I don't know. Maybe they kept using the name as a cover for the next program, maybe they lied about it being a cover name, and so on. All I know is that there is something very off with how they behave surrounding the name. Especially Elizondo. And we have to keep in mind that we only get to see the documents they find harmless enough to release. We know that Elizondo worked at Guantanamo and was called the Torture Czar. Maybe he picked the name AATIP as a useful cover himself, or as some elaborate way to get out of a bad spot.

Monkeesage wrote something interesting that I haven't commented on: "Another option would be that Elizondo was intentionally leaving a paper trail, having already decided to resign and implement the plan with Mellon and Stratton. Chris Mellon's email (https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/osd/20-F-0163.pdf p. 22) seems to be referring to the Tipton's emails (which are attached to his email) as a sort of leverage to get OSD/DoD not to push back on Elizondo's claims about AATIP."

What if this was what Elizondo was doing.

The whole part is worth reading:

I think a plausible reading of this chain of events is that Tipton had no idea what Elizondo was talking about, and after realizing, he wanted no part of it (because he didn't believe, or he thought it was beyond his paygrade or need to know, or whatever other reasons), which caused Elizondo to resign in protest when Tipton did not want to help take their "efforts" and "portfolio" to the "next level".

On this interpretation, I do not see contradiction with Tipton's previous statement about himself and Garry Reid being unaware of any AATIP program while Elizondo worked for them. Tipton could have been using guarded language about exactly when he knew about AATIP, as Elizondo seemingly told him about it in the days leading up to his retirement, but wouldn't change the overall impact of the statement regarding Elizondo's official duties under himself and Reid.

This interpretation also does not require Elizondo to be explicitly lying. In a previous quote from Imminent regarding budget, he presumed that Tipton's old boss, Pede, had figured out what Elizondo was "really" working on, with a knowing wink. He may have sincerely thought Tipton knew about his "nuanced efforts" and was on board because of their passing chit-chat about UFOs.

Because as it reads in Elizondo's book, it makes no sense at all. What if "nuanced efforts" was some nasty stuff, like psychotronics or whatever it is called. It fits with the few stories that come out from Guantanamo. It fits with why Tipton would nothing to do with it when he got to know more, and even wanted to get away from Elizondo. It fits with Elizondo's sudden desperation and his possible lies. He knew about those silly UFO-programs and decided "I'm going to use that as a cover and a distraction. I put DoD in a bad spot where they have to defend themselves while looking suspicious, I can even get the real AAWSAP/AATIP-gang to defend me, and more importantly, I get the UFO-nuts to defend me too." It might even explain his weird paranoid behavior regarding communicating with Mattis, and the contradictions regarding his relation and contact with Mattis in the complain vs the book.

It is my speculations, since you asked for my opinion, but no matter the answer, there is something really shady going on surrounding the whole AATIP stuff and especially Elizondo's sudden departure. And if this isn't to your liking, then we need a better explanation to all this weird behavior. Still great that you questioned me, since it forced me to think about exactly what it all implies.

 

[boringrealit]

Maybe. Just me personally, I think that's Elizondo applying the name retroactively. AAWSAP had a UFO element. Some was internal with people like Stratton looking into things on the government side but it seems most was on the BAASS side. They had the investigators, they had the relationship with MUFON and they generated most of the UFO documents. Kurth alerted Kelleher at BAASS about the Nimitz/TicTak event and in turn Kelleher handed it over to Stratton (Axelrod) at AWWSAP who worked on it.

As AWWSAP closed down and the Elizondo/Stratton side-gig using the name AATIP got rolling, I think they just brought whatever UFO files they could get. Particularly military ones. One of the claims is that Lacatski handed over AWWSAP to Elizondo (post #12) and he decided to drop the Skinwalker Ranch stuff and just focus on UFOs, especially from military sources and changed or decided to use the name AATIP. I don't think that's likely, at least in the form it gets shared.

Did Lacatski alert Elizondo about AWWSAP losing funding and encourage him to keep looking into UFOs? Could be, but that's not exactly handing over the program. I think as they got AATIP going, they just applied the name to UFO hunting within their military surroundings. So, Stratton's work on the Nimitz encounter while he was working a bit at AAWSAP gets relabeled as work he did at AATIP. Just my take.

Regardless, AATIP is always part of AAWSAP, officially or not.

Didn't see your post when I wrote mine above. Yes I think you are exactly right about it being applied retroactively. Elizondo just hijacked the name. It might be that there was some lose continuation from AAWSAP, maybe under Stratton, but it didn't have to be named AATIP, that might just be Elizondo who dragged up that one.

Lacatski said something odd one time, about someone tried to register the name AATIP which would mess up the funding. I wonder if that was Elizondo, but I don't know how it fits in the timeline.

The losing of funding (that some other random program just took them) is really sus too. Might be more activities from Elizondo. It is worth looking into at least.

 

[boringrealit]

Then there is Elizondos presentation slide from years ago where he claims AAWSAP was renamed to AATIP.

I wonder if his whole involvement with the program AAWSAP was just through his normal role at the time. SAP authorisation or whatever it was, I've forgotten what it was exactly

I think so. It was probably very limited involvement. Just filling the role of counter-intelligence, if it became a SAP, but I don't think it ever did. He is barely in Lacatski's book. Only shows up to "look dapper" and tell war stories, then he doesn't show up again, I think, until he does his whole coming out as UFO-director to everyone's surprise. I think it is also mentioned that he gets to visit the Ranch, or at least that they planned for it.

But I could be wrong. Maybe it is documented somewhere else.

 

[Mendel]

What if "nuanced efforts" was some nasty stuff,

it was a euphemism that describes him using the resources his day job offered to go UFO hunting and telling only those about it who were sympathetic to the cause, because obvioysly he did not have DefSec approval.
So if you're trying to recruit others, you have to be 'nuanced' and carefully feel out what it's safe to tell them.
Which is how you know it's not actually a classified special access project, because they do not operate like that.

 

[boringrealit]

it was a euphemism that describes him using the resources his day job offered to go UFO hunting and telling only those about it who were sympathetic to the cause, because obvioysly he did not have DefSec approval.
So if you're trying to recruit others, you have to be 'nuanced' and carefully feel out what it's safe to tell them.
Which is how you know it's not actually a classified special access project, because they do not operate like that.

What is DefSec here?

Neither AAWSAP nor Kona Blue became SAP, correct?

 

[Mendel]

What is DefSec here?

Secretary of Defense.

referring to

quoted upthread

Neither AAWSAP nor Kona Blue became SAP, correct?

Correct. Kona Blue was nothing more than a rejected proposal. Disclosed by AARO, ironically.

 

[boringrealit]

Secretary of Defense.

referring to
View attachment 89986
quoted upthread

Ok, this is complicated because it seems like Elizondo is briefing SECDEF Mattis here:

and

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/g2dy....pdf?rlkey=hqn0iw0g5gdi4crs2h2e4eg6q&e=1&dl=0

But it might be that I am misreading it, and that he just talking to Mattis advisors.

If that is the case, Elizondo's book and and complain/claim about having the approval of SecDef might still work without contradictions. Mattis was new at the job in 2017, and might not been informed of all strange stuff his predecessor had going on with Elizondo. So Elizondo can say that he had contact with SECDEF and still trying to get in contact with Mattis.

This might even be what created a mess for them. A sudden change in leadership.

Correct. Kona Blue was nothing more than a rejected proposal. Disclosed by AARO, ironically.

Makes sense. What doesn't make sense is how former members seems to treat it as something top secret. Especially Elizondo, but others too. I guess that might just be because of NDAs or convenient.

 

[NorCal Dave]

Maybe he picked the name AATIP as a useful cover himself, or as some elaborate way to get out of a bad spot.

But he only "picked the name" after Lacatski and Reid came up with it. Again, if they were using it, why would they use a name that referred to "nasty stuff and psycotornic" torture?

Lacatski said something odd one time, about someone tried to register the name AATIP which would mess up the funding.

He says that in the book. The name had to be AAWSAP, because that would channel the funds through DIA to DWO and to his desk where he administered it. And kept a low profile about it. He was administering a contract for one of Reid's campaign donors that was far out of the scope of the RFP. They chose the name AATIP for the letter requesting SAP status because it wouldn't alert prying eyes where to look for what was really going on. AATIP might not have led a curious person to DWO and Lacatski. In the end, the request resulted in just such scrutiny and the AAWSAP deliverables were deemed not worthy of an SAP. It was probably this same scrutiny that resulted in others seeing the actual RFP as opposed to where the money was actually going.

Reid has said the RFP was deliberately vague (the linked interview is paywalled):

In past interviews, Reid has indicated the interested parties at the DIA felt it prudent to avoid any language that might cause someone to realize the underlying focus of the AATIP program was UFOs. According to Reid, a representative with the DIA told him, "What I will do is prepare something for you that anyone can look at it that wants to, it's strictly science."

https://www.popularmechanics.com/mi.../government-secret-ufo-program-investigation/

AAWSAP channeled $22m to Bigelow so he could chase his fantasies about UFOs, the paranormal, Skinwalker Ranch and the chance to get a hold of parts from crashed UFOs. It was a boondoggle run by true believers.

Because as it reads in Elizondo's book, it makes no sense at all. What if "nuanced efforts" was some nasty stuff, like psychotronics or whatever it is called. It fits with the few stories that come out from Guantanamo. It fits with why Tipton would nothing to do with it when he got to know more, and even wanted to get away from Elizondo.

I think you're just fixating on some secret program from GitMo you think existed, plugging Elizondo into it and then trying to back fit everything else. Elizondo seems to have spent a short time at GitMo, prior to working under the OUSDI starting in 2008, so before AAWSAP or AATIP existed. As @Mendel said above, "nuanced efforts" was likely UFO hunting, something Tipton may not have been interested in.

It fits with Elizondo's sudden desperation and his possible lies. He knew about those silly UFO-programs and decided "I'm going to use that as a cover and a distraction.

I don't know about his "sudden desperation", he had been in the military/intell for 22 years having enlisted in 1995, so may have been time to move on. Particularly if Mellon had set him up with Kean for the NYT article and more importantly with DeLong of TTSA. Elizondo didn't resign and go on unemployment, he went straight to being a public figure and working at TTSA with AAWSAP alums like Hal Putoff. At the time, TTSA was seen as a big deal with a big financial potential.

In addition, IF he was using the UFO programs as cover, Jay Stratton was in on it with him. Why? Stratton was involved in AAWSAP, then did AATIP with Eizondo, then headed the UAP Task Force for a bit. He, like Elizondo now speaks on the UFO conference circuit. This was all just part of Elizondo covering up some GitMo program? I don't see it.

I put DoD in a bad spot where they have to defend themselves while looking suspicious, I can even get the real AAWSAP/AATIP-gang to defend me, and more importantly, I get the UFO-nuts to defend me too."

Again, I don't follow. Elizondo resigns in late 2017 and goes to the NYT with a story about UFOs. Then the folks who where at AAWSAP 7 years earlier had to defend him? Who? The existence of AAWSAP didn't really come out until after 2020 or so. Which "ufo-nuts", the ones in AAWSAP or the general public? This provided cover from a secret GitMo program? How?

It might even explain his weird paranoid behavior regarding communicating with Mattis, and the contradictions regarding his relation and contact with Mattis in the complain vs the book

A simpler suggestion is the communications with Mattis is a disgruntled person expressing his dissatisfaction with how he's been treated. It's attempting to go to one's boss's boss's boss with a complaint. It could also be a bit of a publicity stunt. Elizondo, Mellon and Stratton all claim that their plan was for Elizondo to resign and go public while Stratton stayed and worked "inside". Mellon arranged for Elizondo to talk to Kean, to join up with TTSA and get the disclosure ball rolling. IF this was all a plan, writing letter about how UFOs arn't being taken seriously to Mattis right before spilling the beans to the NYT makes sense.

Again, your idea means Stratton, Mellon and maybe many of the AAWSAP people like Puthoff and Davis are all in on Elizondo's cover story for something completely different.

Exactly what the relationship between AAWSAP and AATIP was, is deliberately confusing. The people doing it made it that way and Reid admitted as much. The program was sending money to Reid's buddy Bigelow so he could look for UFOs and were-wolves and hopefully get some crashed UFO parts. Again, it was a boondoggle that they were trying to keep under wraps. Regardless, AATIP has always been associated with AAWSAP and there is nothing to suggest otherwise. Certainly not anything related to GitMo or "psyscotronics".

To this day, Elizondo maintains the UFO storyline and speaks at UFO events:

In 2025, Elizondo participated in the McMenamins Hotel Oregon UFO Festival at the McMinnville Community Center in McMinnville, Oregon.[36]​[37]​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Elizondo

I almost ran into him on my bike at that one.

He continues to say some of the most basic UFO myths are true, like the thoroughly debunked Roswell event:

Elizondo writes that the intelligence he studied pointed to two saucers colliding that day on July 8. "Our primitive EMP (electro-magnetic pulse) device must have somehow disrupted their propulsion bubble, rendering them vulnerable … like a 757 losing all power on its jet engines," he concludes.

"Four deceased non-human bodies were in fact recovered from the 1947 Roswell crash," Elizondo claims in the book, which spent a year under Pentagon security review before being passed for publication. Several parts remain redacted.

https://www.thetimes.com/world/us-w...secret-group-has-non-human-material-k9556s7rc

Note that his book had a complete security review, meaning nobody cared if he wrote about the supposed Roswell flying saucers. They're obviously not classified.

AAWSAP/AATIP was about UFOs and other stuff. The people that worked on it like Bigelow, Puthoff and Davis, were long time UFO proponents. Elizondo got involved with them in some form and did some kind of UFO research with Stratton after funding ran out. He resigned in 2017 and went straight to Kean with a story about UFOs. He then went to TTSA, a company all about UFOs. He maintains many of the old UFO myths, speaks at UFO conferences and talks about UFOs on podcasts. While details vary, he's rather consistent with the UFO thing, as was every known thing about AAWSAP/AATIP.

Trying to fit a secret GitMo program into all of this seems like shoving a square peg into a non-existent round hole.

 

[John J.]

Correct. Kona Blue was nothing more than a rejected proposal. Disclosed by AARO, ironically.

Makes sense. What doesn't make sense is how former members seems to treat it as something top secret. Especially Elizondo

Elizondo likes mythology-building. Like some others in Ufology, he is eager to push the idea that the US government, or at least some sections of some government agencies, take UFO reports seriously and know more than they're telling us (hence the need for "disclosure").

As @Mendel said, Kona Blue only existed as a proposal that was rejected- no paid staff, no employees, no resources or corpus of knowledge.

....KONA BLUE was a Prospective Special Access Program (PSAP) that had been proposed to DHS leadership but was never approved or formally established. KONA BLUE never received any materials or funding, and there is no information beyond the proposal presentation marked with the KONA BLUE name. AARO traced the origin of the proposal for KONA BLUE to the Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Application Program (AAWSAP)/Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program (AATIP) program, which was managed by the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) from 2009-2012 and funded through congressional earmarks. Bigelow Aerospace, headquartered in Nevada, served as the primary contractor executing funds for the program and delivered multiple reports during the period of their contract. DIA terminated the program due to a cited lack of merit and lack of utility in the products Bigelow produced for DIA's mission. ...no data or material of any kind was ever transferred to or collected by DHS under the auspices of KONA BLUE.

"History and Origin of KONA BLUE", The All-domain Anomaly Resolution Office, https://www.aaro.mil/Portals/136/PD...History_and_Origin_of_KONA_BLUE_FINAL_508.pdf, see thread Kona Blue - AARO Report on the Proposed AAWSAP Successor

It fits with Elizondo's sudden desperation... He knew about those silly UFO-programs and decided "I'm going to use that as a cover and a distraction. I put DoD in a bad spot where they have to defend themselves while looking suspicious, I can even get the real AAWSAP/AATIP-gang to defend me, and more importantly, I get the UFO-nuts to defend me too."

I think Luis Elizondo's actions over the years are strong evidence that he has a long-standing interest in UFOs and several fringe claims (e.g. remote viewing). He has been keen to promote his supposed role in investigating UFOs for the USG, inevitably drawing attention to himself.
In recent years, he has made claims/ supported claims that are so weak they are almost funny (see threads Four Corners - Large Disk Seen From Private Plane at FL210 [Irrigation Circles] and Elizondo's Romanian Non-Human Mothership Photo [Reflection of a Light Fixture].
And there's the extraordinary saga of Elizondo's Orbs.

He is not shy of public appearances and self-promotion. Drawing attention to himself (and his intelligence background) seems a risky strategy if he was someone who had dark secrets to hide. His activity on the UFO scene goes far beyond someone using UFOs as a cover story or distraction for something else (IMHO). Raising his military/ intelligence background, and AAWSAP/ AATIP, is contrary to any grey man ethos- it invites scrutiny.

Claims of USG/ agency investigations into UFOs mainly appeal to UFO "believers", who (at least in terms of a community of participants communicating with each other) already seem to have a tendency to believe unlikely claims and conspiracy theories involving USG/ agencies, and would probably have done so without Elizondo's involvement. Maybe I'm being uncharitable, but I don't think the UFO community will be responsible for uncovering any great political scandals or human rights abuses; they don't need distracting.
Placing someone, or someone placing themselves, within the UFO community for decades to cover up something not to do with UFOs that that community would be unlikely to investigate anyway doesn't make much sense.

There is some evidence US agencies have refrained from explaining the identified likely causes of some UFO sightings, see thread Claim: CIA Spy Planes Account for Over 1/2 of all UFO Reports in the '50s and '60s in the US.
There is a one-off documented instance of a CIA operative, 1954, sending advice to colleagues in (probably) Guatemala that suggests manufacturing a UFO story, perhaps (conjecture) to divert public/ press attention away from unpleasant aspects of the US-backed military coup

If possible, fabricate big human interest story, like flying saucers, birth sextuplets in remote area to take play away.

US Office of the Historian, Foreign Relations of the United States, 1952–1954, Guatemala, "89. Telegram From Operation PBSUCCESS Headquarters in Florida to the CIA Stations in Guatemala and [place not declassified]", https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1952-54Guat/d89

But on balance I feel it's unlikely AAWSAP/ AATIP were covers for anything deeply sinister though they might have been used as camouflage, enabling a few to pursue UFO-related interests under the pretext of research into technologies/ science with possible defense applications.
There is no evidence whatsoever that AAWSAP/ AATIP had any connection with persons in custody, HUMINT or any forms of interrogation, much less torture or human experimentation. It might be sensible to avoid speculation that could be libellous of identifiable living persons.

Luis Elizondo appears to have a genuine, long-standing interest in UFOs and other claimed esoteric phenomena. What he actually believes, we can't know. There is absolutely no evidence this interest has any connection to the abuse of prisoners or other human rights abuses.

 

[Mendel]

But it might be that I am misreading it, and that he just talking to Mattis advisors.

That's how I understand it. Lue talked to someone in Mattis's office, not Mattis himself.
Thank you for posting the sources.

 

[boringrealit]

But he only "picked the name" after Lacatski and Reid came up with it. Again, if they were using it, why would they use a name that referred to "nasty stuff and psycotornic" torture?

I'm not sure which alternative to pick. Most likely is probably that Elizondo had a real role of some kind within the continuation of AAWSAP and worked with the nasty stuff. Probably Project Consciousness in that case, because it seems to be a project which DOPSR or Lacatski don't want us to know about. It is barely mentioned in the books.

Something happens and Elizondo have to think fast, can he drop the hot potato in Tipton's knee? No. Ok, he has to get away from his position and he needs some sort of distraction. He decide to be Disclosure Champ and pretends that he had Lacatski's role, but he know he can't call it AAWSAP, since it has documentation, so he picks AATIP, which was supposed to be the safe cover name.

Nah, it doesn't feel right.

The alternative could be that he is disconnected from the AAWSAP stuff now, and are only into psychotronic stuff, and uses the name AATIP in a similar way when he drops out.

He says that in the book. The name had to be AAWSAP, because that would channel the funds through DIA to DWO and to his desk where he administered it. And kept a low profile about it. He was administering a contract for one of Reid's campaign donors that was far out of the scope of the RFP. They chose the name AATIP for the letter requesting SAP status because it wouldn't alert prying eyes where to look for what was really going on. AATIP might not have led a curious person to DWO and Lacatski. In the end, the request resulted in just such scrutiny and the AAWSAP deliverables were deemed not worthy of an SAP. It was probably this same scrutiny that resulted in others seeing the actual RFP as opposed to where the money was actually going.

Lacatski said it in some interview. Something like that it "would be a real bear". I have to search for it later. It was with Corbell/Knapp.

I think you're just fixating on some secret program from GitMo you think existed, plugging Elizondo into it and then trying to back fit everything else. Elizondo seems to have spent a short time at GitMo, prior to working under the OUSDI starting in 2008, so before AAWSAP or AATIP existed. As @Mendel said above, "nuanced efforts" was likely UFO hunting, something Tipton may not have been interested in.

Maybe I am. My impression from the book was that he was involved with Gitmo almost all the way. Page 87 in Imminent. He has recently started a new position at a program that manages SAPs, and this is somehow why he is at Gitmo. And this is when AAWSAP is starting to fall apart for Lacatski. So 2010? Unless he had some role earlier that isn't mentioned.

But an interesting thing here. This is where he claim to have moved "the efforts" from DIA to "his own portfolio of programs", and this is what he calls AATIP. It's he and Stratton, and Kit Green, Puthoff, and Davis. Using some of their normal budgets for UFO-hunts.

At least in 2015 it seems like he is still involved with gitmo. Page 148, but I only check the beginning of the chapter that said it was 2015.

I don't know about his "sudden desperation", he had been in the military/intell for 22 years having enlisted in 1995, so may have been time to move on. Particularly if Mellon had set him up with Kean for the NYT article and more importantly with DeLong of TTSA. Elizondo didn't resign and go on unemployment, he went straight to being a public figure and working at TTSA with AAWSAP alums like Hal Putoff. At the time, TTSA was seen as a big deal with a big financial potential.

In addition, IF he was using the UFO programs as cover, Jay Stratton was in on it with him. Why? Stratton was involved in AAWSAP, then did AATIP with Eizondo, then headed the UAP Task Force for a bit. He, like Elizondo now speaks on the UFO conference circuit. This was all just part of Elizondo covering up some GitMo program? I don't see it.

It probably wasn't as sudden as they make it seem. They had planned for it, but maybe in a different way if Tipton had accepted.

I have no problem with involving Stratton (and even less so Green and Puthoff, they've been researching consciousness in the past), if this was a thing, it wasn't some little hobby, it would involve a lot of people. He did claim that they were supposed to get 10 million for one year. And Stratton hasn't been in the conference circuit yet, but he probably will in the future when his books comes out.

But you are right that it probably have some actual connection to the UFO-research and those people. They are most likely all true believers, and they have done studies on how people see different things and probably concluded that the UFOs are using some sort of psychotronic weapon. Or they might use psychotronic tech to be able to talk to UFOs or whatever. So it is very likely that they found ways to induce hallucinations of angels or skinwalkers with some high energy tech.

Again, I don't follow. Elizondo resigns in late 2017 and goes to the NYT with a story about UFOs. Then the folks who where at AAWSAP 7 years earlier had to defend him? Who? The existence of AAWSAP didn't really come out until after 2020 or so. Which "ufo-nuts", the ones in AAWSAP or the general public? This provided cover from a secret GitMo program? How?

Well, they are old friends, and haven't actually defended him that much, but it is more like they didn't call him out for lying, until much later with Lacatski explaining AAWSAP vs AATIP.

Yes, the general public. He becomes a hero and a martyr, and even better, a polarizing figure. You get a story about how persecuted he is, how disinfo agents and debunkers are working for the Secret Keepers, trying to smear him, and the end result is that the UFO-nuts will defend him against everything. And even better, the critics call him a fraud and a grifter, or an idiot. But no one calls him Torture Czar. He became a saint and a clown. Both are immune to accusations of running some nasty experiments. Plus the general chaos and noise makes a genuine analysis impossible.

But this is just speculations and attempt to answer the questions "why is he lying so much different than the rest?" and "what is this actually trying to hide?" If anyone comes up with a better scenario for why someone like Elizondo - a counterintelligence agent - decides to make a scene and is lying about the actual UFO program he was part of, then I am ready to change my mind. But something is clearly wrong with this whole mess.

A simpler suggestion is the communications with Mattis is a disgruntled person expressing his dissatisfaction with how he's been treated. It's attempting to go to one's boss's boss's boss with a complaint. It could also be a bit of a publicity stunt. Elizondo, Mellon and Stratton all claim that their plan was for Elizondo to resign and go public while Stratton stayed and worked "inside". Mellon arranged for Elizondo to talk to Kean, to join up with TTSA and get the disclosure ball rolling. IF this was all a plan, writing letter about how UFOs arn't being taken seriously to Mattis right before spilling the beans to the NYT makes sense.

I totally agree. At the very least they would exaggerate the situation.

I do however think there is a real conflict with Garry Reid. Reid might have become aware, annoyed, or at even directly hostile to whatever they did.

Again, your idea means Stratton, Mellon and maybe many of the AAWSAP people like Puthoff and Davis are all in on Elizondo's cover story for something completely different.

You make a good point. I think I have to think a bit about how they reacts differently. Most seem indifferent, and Davis is even debunking his claims of leadership. I get a feeling that Elizondo act alone, and surprised his friends.

I have to think about this a bit more.

 

[Ann K]

But you are right that it probably have some actual connection to the UFO-research and those people. They are most likely all true believers, and they have done studies on how people see different things and probably concluded that the UFOs are using some sort of psychotronic weapon. Or they might use psychotronic tech to be able to talk to UFOs or whatever. So it is very likely that they found ways to induce hallucinations of angels or skinwalkers with some high energy tech.

I think your vivid imagination is running away with you a bit. Believers in UFOs? Perhaps; they're certainly interested in the idea. Beyond that, I think your speculations have no parallels in reality. Be cautious about making charges without evidence.

 

[NorCal Dave]

I'm not sure which alternative to pick. Most likely is probably that Elizondo had a real role of some kind within the continuation of AAWSAP and worked with the nasty stuff.

What "nasty stuff"? We know pretty much what AAWSAP did. Aside from looking into a few UFo cases like the Nimitz encounter, AAWSAP funneled money to BAASS. We have a pretty good idea what BAASS did. It used the money to procure offices and personal, contracted Puthoff's EarthTech to provide the DIRD papers fulfilling the public part of the RFP, farted around at Skinwalker Ranch, created databases of UFOs from MUFON, old Soviet files, and some Brazilian stuff and tried to get supposed UFO material from Lockheed. There is NOTHING about GitMo in any of this.

This is where he claim to have moved "the efforts" from DIA to "his own portfolio of programs", and this is what he calls AATIP. It's he and Stratton, and Kit Green, Puthoff, and Davis.

Maybe. That kinda makes sense. AAWSAP had lost funding at DIA and and efforts to get it continued elsewhere like DHS, as something new like KONA BLUE, failed. It was done and over. So, Elizondo and Stratton kept it going while working on their own programs. Pretty much what we've been saying, it was a side-gig about UFOs.

They are most likely all true believers, and they have done studies on how people see different things and probably concluded that the UFOs are using some sort of psychotronic weapon. Or they might use psychotronic tech to be able to talk to UFOs or whatever. So it is very likely that they found ways to induce hallucinations of angels or skinwalkers with some high energy tech.

You've completely lost me now. Where is there any evidence of anything like this? These guys can "induce hallucinations"?

Puthoff was a legit laser expert back in the '60s. Then in the '70s he hooked up with Russel Targ at the Stanford Research Institute to investigate Psy for the Army and later the CIA, so completely out of his wheel house. This eventually became part of Project Stargate. He and Targ were routinely fooled by the likes of Uri Geller and others and their results are questionable at best. Stargate was eventually canceled and declassified since it was a bust. Puthoff hung around the UFO world and by the '90s was working at Bigelow's NIDS at Skinwalker Ranch and later BAASS.

As for Davis, you can try to watch him ramble on about UFOs and aliens and assorted other fringe things in his presentation for a disclosure group. The important thing from his log-winded talk, is that he tells everyone that he knows all about the government held UFO assets, how they work, what aliens are involved, who has the parts, everything, but then complains he's never been given the proper clearance to actually study these things. Which begs the question, so how does he know all about them? I used the transcripts of his talk to pull the highlights in this thread:

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/ua...ith-house-oversight-committee-may-2025.14218/

AATIP and AAWSAP are related. They were about UFOs and Skinwalker Ranch. They were about Reid sending money to Bigelow. Not GitMO. Not hallucination inducing energy beams. There is simple no evidence for that.

 

[boringrealit]

Elizondo likes mythology-building. Like some others in Ufology, he is eager to push the idea that the US government, or at least some sections of some government agencies, take UFO reports seriously and know more than they're telling us (hence the need for "disclosure").

As @Mendel said, Kona Blue only existed as a proposal that was rejected- no paid staff, no employees, no resources or corpus of knowledge.

Lacatski claims that Kona Blue continued, but with private funding. It wasn't clear what he meant.

....KONA BLUE was a Prospective Special Access Program (PSAP) that had been proposed to DHS leadership but was never approved or formally established. KONA BLUE never received any materials or funding, and there is no information beyond the proposal presentation marked with the KONA BLUE name. AARO traced the origin of the proposal for KONA BLUE to the Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Application Program (AAWSAP)/Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program (AATIP) program, which was managed by the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) from 2009-2012 and funded through congressional earmarks. Bigelow Aerospace, headquartered in Nevada, served as the primary contractor executing funds for the program and delivered multiple reports during the period of their contract. DIA terminated the program due to a cited lack of merit and lack of utility in the products Bigelow produced for DIA's mission. ...no data or material of any kind was ever transferred to or collected by DHS under the auspices of KONA BLUE.

"History and Origin of KONA BLUE", The All-domain Anomaly Resolution Office, https://www.aaro.mil/Portals/136/PD...History_and_Origin_of_KONA_BLUE_FINAL_508.pdf, see thread Kona Blue - AARO Report on the Proposed AAWSAP Successor

I think this is around 2011 when Elizondo moves "AATIP" to his own portfolio of programs. It is possible that Kona Blue somehow lived on there. I don't know how these sort of things work, but it is interesting that the program Elizondo worked for at Gitmo, was managing SAPs. A very odd program for a prison for potential terrorists.

I think Luis Elizondo's actions over the years are strong evidence that he has a long-standing interest in UFOs and several fringe claims (e.g. remote viewing). He has been keen to promote his supposed role in investigating UFOs for the USG, inevitably drawing attention to himself.
In recent years, he has made claims/ supported claims that are so weak they are almost funny (see threads Four Corners - Large Disk Seen From Private Plane at FL210 [Irrigation Circles] and Elizondo's Romanian Non-Human Mothership Photo [Reflection of a Light Fixture].
And there's the extraordinary saga of Elizondo's Orbs.

I wonder if it is intentional. He isn't a dummy, he wouldn't had the positions he had if he was. He has done some other sus things in interviews, like breadcrumbing things that led nowhere, but kept up the interest. Is it meant as a distraction maybe?

He is not shy of public appearances and self-promotion. Drawing attention to himself (and his intelligence background) seems a risky strategy if he was someone who had dark secrets to hide. His activity on the UFO scene goes far beyond someone using UFOs as a cover story or distraction for something else (IMHO). Raising his military/ intelligence background, and AAWSAP/ AATIP, is contrary to any grey man ethos- it invites scrutiny.

I agree with that part. There seems to be something more to it. Which is why I get a bit hesitant now. His behavior doesn't line up. It would be great if he had some clear supporter, but even Mellon isn't much of a cheerleader. My impression is that Elizondo is alone in this, and his former friends was mostly confused of his strange behavior and lies.

Claims of USG/ agency investigations into UFOs mainly appeal to UFO "believers", who (at least in terms of a community of participants communicating with each other) already seem to have a tendency to believe unlikely claims and conspiracy theories involving USG/ agencies, and would probably have done so without Elizondo's involvement. Maybe I'm being uncharitable, but I don't think the UFO community will be responsible for uncovering any great political scandals or human rights abuses; they don't need distracting.
Placing someone, or someone placing themselves, within the UFO community for decades to cover up something not to do with UFOs that that community would be unlikely to investigate anyway doesn't make much sense.

The UFO community doesn't do much good, but I think we have to look at what Elizondo accomplished with his behavior. The UFO community has grown a lot, and congress is at least pretending to push for disclosure, and so on. There wouldn't be a disclosure movement if it wasn't for Elizondo. UFOs have become normalized. I just don't know what the point is tbh. I don't think he is the UFO-hippie he pretend to be, I don't think he believe that "people have a right to know" or "safety for pilots", and so on.

But on balance I feel it's unlikely AAWSAP/ AATIP were covers for anything deeply sinister though they might have been used as camouflage, enabling a few to pursue UFO-related interests under the pretext of research into technologies/ science with possible defense applications.
There is no evidence whatsoever that AAWSAP/ AATIP had any connection with persons in custody, HUMINT or any forms of interrogation, much less torture or human experimentation. It might be sensible to avoid speculation that could be libellous of identifiable living persons.

Luis Elizondo appears to have a genuine, long-standing interest in UFOs and other claimed esoteric phenomena. What he actually believes, we can't know. There is absolutely no evidence this interest has any connection to the abuse of prisoners or other human rights abuses.

Except for Elizondo himself, who worked at Gitmo and was called the Torture Czar, according to himself.

 

[Mendel]

Lacatski claims that Kona Blue continued, but with private funding. It wasn't clear what he meant.

Can you source that, please?
All evidence I've seen implies that Kona Blue never started, and thus cannot have continued.
And why would it, when Elizondo kept calling his UFO-hunting hobby AATIP?

I wonder if it is intentional. He isn't a dummy, he wouldn't had the positions he had if he was.

Yes. But you seem to believe his moral integrity is doubtful, so what does that imply for his trustworthiness?

 

[boringrealit]

Can you source that, please?
All evidence I've seen implies that Kona Blue never started, and thus cannot have continued.
And why would it, when Elizondo kept calling his UFO-hunting hobby AATIP?

Yes. But you seem to believe his moral integrity is doubtful, so what does that imply for his trustworthiness?

I think he talked about it in some other interview with Knapp for KLAS, and possibly in the last interview with Corbell/Knapp, but here is one example:
Source: https://youtu.be/Qu8pudJk_-A?si=57M8rr8bs5GbHZlV&t=1336


Up till 24:25. I tried to find it in the last one too, but only got the discussion between Knapp and Corbell in the end.

Might as well link that too:
Source: https://youtu.be/rW02-PuPMJ8?si=0-nx9M1iAb-v-Zjc&t=5935


Up till 1:39:40 or so.

I have no idea why they are always being so vague. Can't be NDAs they give much respect to.

*

Yes, I think Elizondo's moral integrity is doubtful, because I think he lied, at the very least about being the director of AATIP. The thing is that they are telling two competing stories, either you believe Elizondo's story is more true, or everyone else's.

I think both sides lies to some extent, but Elizondo is alone and have a story that doesn't hold up as well. He always comes off as Obi Wan Kenobi when he tries to correct the record "...from a certain point of view." It would be interesting to go through his earlier versions with his later. But that would be a job for an AI, I feel.