The Origins of AAWSAP

[Mendel]

My thought is that this could explain why there is such a mess around AATIP, and such resistance to releasing documents and so on. That it was some real form of program that did things beside UFO stuff, things that has to be kept secret by USG. Things inspired by the UFO theories maybe.

Thanks for explaining that a bit more in depth.

It's an interesting speculation, but I'd like to see more evidence before I'd consider it likely.

 

[MonkeeSage]

I just don't understand why Elizondo would show up suddenly in 2017 and make a scene and call himself director of AATIP. Did he plan it already in 2009, or maybe he didn't know the real name?

As for why he came out in 2017, it's explicitly spelled out in his book Imminent that it was part of an influence campaign to force Congress to act to create a new program (which ended up working and UAP Task Force was created with Jay Stratton leading).

We also discussed a plan I developed to get the issue before Congress and the American people in the event Lue resigned. [...] Once Lue made his fateful decision to resign in protest, we immediately launched a concerted effort to get him and this critical information about UAP to Congress, the press, and the American people.

Source: Chris Mellon, Foreword to Imminent, p. 20.

At work, Jay Stratton and I made a plan that would go against all odds. A plan to bring about disclosure. I would resign and go public with the mission of bringing as much attention and credibility to the issue as possible. Jay would stay with the government and use the momentum gained by the public attention to move the ball forward within the government and brief any and all officials who would no doubt suddenly be interested. They had to learn the truth, and Jay would be positioned to inform them on a classified level. And he'd be positioned to run whatever version of AATIP came next. I'd also help educate Congress and facilitate introducing them to credible military and IC members who'd had UAP encounters. We would continue to work together, from different sides of the fence, to bring about disclosure and look out for the best interest of the American people and, frankly, humanity at large.

Source: Luis Elizondo, Imminent, p. 221.

Mellon has also discussed how that plan played out in a Gizmodo article.

Mellon says that after learning of the extent of UFO sightings by U.S. pilots, he wanted to spread the word about the issue. "I came up with a simple plan to do that, which involved going to the press and going to Congress," said Mellon. [...]

The way Mellon explains it, the pivotal New York Times story that is largely credited with helping legitimize UFOs within the broader culture never would have happened without his direct involvement. "This was not investigative journalism," Mellon tells me. "I handed them the evidence, introduced them to Lue Elizondo, gave them a stack of documents, arranged for them to meet and interview Harry Reid, and made a deal with them. They ran the story, which appeared on December 16 of 2017 on the front page."

Mellon says this was part of a broader plan on his part to spread the word about UFOs and to get Congress to take some sort of action on the matter.

Source: https://gizmodo.com/another-ufo-report-is-a-bust-so-why-do-so-many-people-1851331674

Rereading the Kona Blue document, I notice that they are talking about AATIP, or something similar, in classified documents, never AAWSAP. But in the older documents it is only AAWSAP, and not AATIP. So they weren't using it as a cover. I think it was a real program, or an attempt to a real program, or possibly that AAWSAP was a cover too.

After reviewing Reid's SAP request, DIA wrote in a memo to OUSDI dated November 13, 2009, that Reid was actually referring to AAWSAP as AATIP, and they could not justify a SAP for the program based on the unclassified nature of their deliverables and projected future products.

(U//FOUO) This info memo responds to your request for the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) [redacted] to evaluate a request from Senator Harry Reid (enclosure 1) to establish a restricted special access program (SAP) for the Advanced Aerospace Weapon Systems Application Program Contract, referred to in Senator Reid's letter as the Advanced Aerospace Threat and Identification Program (AATIP). In reviewing the deliverables to date and looking ahead to planned production in fiscal year (FY) 2010, DIA cannot find adequate justification to establish a restricted SAP.

(U//FOUO) All program documents delivered to during FY 2009 (the first year of the program) were unclassified because the contractor had not established a secure facility, and program employees were being vetted for clearances. In FY 2010, most research products will remain at the unclassified level. However, four to six of the original technical reports will be expanded to included classified data. These reports will focus on foreign research in a particular technology area and will likely be derivatively classified at the secret level. Based on classification levels of current and projected program deliverables, there are insufficient grounds to classify this open program, invoke alternative or compensatory control measures (ACCM), or establish a restricted SAP.

Source: https://documents2.theblackvault.co...-Review_of_Special_Access_Program_Request.pdf

In an information packet provided to DepSecDef sometime after November 17, 2009, James Clapper wrote the following summary.

Senator Harry Reid sent a letter to you on June 24, 2009 requesting the Department of Defense put the AAITP [sic] under 'Restricted Special Access Protection'(Tab A). The AAITP [sic] that SEN Reid refers to is officially the Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Application Program (AAWSAP) contract managed by DIA. Its primary purpose is to investigate revolutionary advances in future aerospace technologies with emphasis on research of unconventional and revolutionary technologies. The sole bid for the contract was from Bigelow Aerospace Advance Space Studies located in Las Vegas, NV. The resulting contract was for multiple sub-contractors to perform unclassified research in 11 technical areas and deliver technical reports on those areas by July 31, 2009. [redacted] directed a quality review of the technical reports that DIA completed in October 2009.

In late October 2009, DIA completed the technical review of the program deliverables (Tab B) and provided USD(I) SAPCO the current status of the AAWSAP. The program manager and his leadership advised that they saw no justification for Special Access protections based on the content of the FY09 deliverables or the anticipated FY10 work. This recommendation is formally stated and outlined in the attached memorandum from [redacted] (Tab C).

Senators Reid and Inouye co-sponsored a $10M earmark in the July 2008 supplemental to fund this DIA effort to look at potential future aerospace weapons threats. A $12M earmark has been allocated to support the program in FY2010.

Based on the recommendation from DIA and my staffs review of the technical reports, I recommend against establishing a Special Access Program at this time.

Source: https://documents2.theblackvault.co...09117-Final_Packet_Presented_to_DepSecDef.pdf

 

[boringrealit]

Unredacted bigot-list:

Source: https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/osd/20-F-0163.pdf

 

[boringrealit]

Btw, same source, this is from public affair operations (Gough?):

• Mr. Elizondo had no responsibilities with regard to the AATIP program while he worked in OUSDI, up until the time he resigned effective 10/4/2017

.• He started with OUSD(I) on 28-Sep-08 as an Intelligence Operations Specialist.The Advanced Aviation Threat Identification Program:
• The Advanced Aviation Threat Identification Program ended in 2012. It was determined that there were other, higher priority issues that merited funding and it was in the best interest of the DoD to make a change.

My boldings. The person calls it "Aviation" instead of "Aerospace" and talks about it as a real program with funding. I suspect that it was a real program, if not a SAP, or possibly still used as a cover-name for a real SAP-program.

But everyone, even Elizondo now, try to make us think it was just some silly side project.

 

[MonkeeSage]

Unredacted bigot-list:

View attachment 89903
Source: https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/osd/20-F-0163.pdf

Yeah, that is interesting as a data point, but it has actually been known for a few years.

John Greenwald originally received an almost fully redacted list.
https://documents2.theblackvault.co...090624_Reid_to_DEPSECDEF_ref_AAITP_in_SAP.pdf

George Knapp released a version with Elizondo and Hal Puthoff unredacted.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/ind...eid,_then_US_Senate_Majority_Leader,_2009.pdf

Last year Steven Greenstreet released a copy of the full unredacted list.
x.com/MiddleOfMayhem/status/1943347336278872149

It shows there was some kind of connection between Elizondo and AAWSAP, but really doesn't tell us any more than that. We already knew he was somehow related to AAWSAP from his mentions in Skinwalkers at the Pentagon by James Lacatski, Colm Kelleher and George Knapp, where Stratton was bringing him to dinners and he was telling them about his alleged psychic abilities, and kept in touch with Stratton (p. 63).

Further down the dinner table sat Luis Elizondo, who worked collaboratively with Axelrod and was at the office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence (USDI). Elizondo looked dapper with jet black hair and was considered a brilliant Special Agent and analyst with a lot of expertise on counterintelligence investigations. Little did anyone at that dinner table realize that nine years later Lue Elizondo would become a media star and a household name in global UAP investigations.

As he enjoyed his steak tartare, Elizondo regaled those around him with some war stories, including one hair-raising exploit about how his advanced intuition and remote viewing capabilities had saved his life and the life of his men while on a covert combat mission in war-torn Afghanistan. Lue was one of that rare breed, an astute, detail-oriented analyst with an open mind. After that dinner meeting and the briefing the following day, he kept in close touch with Jonathan Axelrod as the project progressed.

Btw, same source, this is from public affair operations (Gough?):

• Mr. Elizondo had no responsibilities with regard to the AATIP program while he worked in OUSDI, up until the time he resigned effective 10/4/2017

.• He started with OUSD(I) on 28-Sep-08 as an Intelligence Operations Specialist.The Advanced Aviation Threat Identification Program:
• The Advanced Aviation Threat Identification Program ended in 2012. It was determined that there were other, higher priority issues that merited funding and it was in the best interest of the DoD to make a change.

My boldings. The person calls it "Aviation" instead of "Aerospace" and talks about it as a real program with funding. I suspect that it was a real program, if not a SAP, or possibly still used as a cover-name for a real SAP-program.

But everyone, even Elizondo now, try to make us think it was just some silly side project.

The 2019 email you quote from the FOIA document (https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/osd/20-F-0163.pdf) is from pages 83-84 and begins with the statement, "I don't have an accurate accounting of his employment history with AATIP. I have been provided this statement from OUSD(I)." AAWSAP/AATIP was a DIA program so it's understandable that OSD public affairs would not have an accurate picture of the program.

In an email from 2019 on pp. 263-264, Neill Tipton, Elizondo's former boss at OUSDI said:

AATIP - "Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program" - name of the program initially created by Senators Reid and Inouye in 2008.

AAWSAP - "Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Application Program" - name of the contract that DIA executed and managed in accordance with the AATIP legislation.

To the questions that are being asked about Elizondo's purported role in AATIP. As Tara has said for Garry and as 1have said, Elizondo had no assigned responsibilities for this program. Elizondo worked for me from 2010 to early 2012. He worked for Garry for some years prior to his resignation from the government.

Of note and in the interest of absolute clarity:

I have seen one document that associates Elizondo with AATIP. It is a letter from Senator Reid's office, dated 24 June 2009 that requested a security assessment. It had an attachment with a list of names of proposed 'bigoted list of government personnel'. That list included Elizondo. That document was marked by Sen Reid's office as containing information exempt from mandatory disclosure under FOIA citing exemptions 1 and 5.

That letter from Senator Reid's office pre-dates Elizondo being assigned to my office. At the time he was assigned to me, he brought with him no responsibilities for AATIP (and I was unaware of its existence).

That one document is the only written association of Elizondo with AATIP, it has nothing about who is 'in charge' of AATIP, and as we've said he had no responsibilities for the program while under my or Garry Reid's oversight.

This is again a confusion about the relationship of AAWSAP/AATIP, but that is clarified in the much earlier DIA and USD Clapper memos from the time the program was active, cited previously. But it does show his actual bosses had no knowledge of him working for AAWSAP/AATIP.

Per Lacatski in Skinwalkers at the Pentagon, p. 145, AAWSAP/AATIP run for the duration of its contract and was shut down, leading them to look for other funding, leading them to DHS and the Kona Blue proposal.

The Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Applications Program (AAWSAP) ran for just over two years, including a three month no-cost-extension that concluded on December 21, 2010. Even as the program was shut down at DIA, AAWSAP principals began looking for alternative locations at which to house what had become both a highly successful program but also a political hot potato. Several attempts were made by members of AAWSAP in 2011 to secure a place at the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) after the shutdown of the effort at DIA. They are described in this and the next chapter.

This agrees with the DIA memos:

(U//FOUO) In November, 2009, Deputy Secretary of Defense Lynn and I met with Senator Reid to discuss this program. At that time, we determined the reports were of limited value to DIA. However, I did suggest they could be of merit to other organizations and that upon the completion of the DIA contract; the project could be transitioned to another agency or component better suited to oversee the project.

Source: https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/dia/AAWSAP/U-10-2552CE-IM-ATL.pdf

And the DHS memos:

(U) In a December 2009 meeting, LTG Burgess, Director of DIA and former DoD Deputy Sec. William Lynn communicated to Senator Reid that the DIA program could not be conducted by the Intelligence Community due to its potential growth. In addition, per an (undated) Info Memo, Subject: Advanced Aerospace Threat and Identification Program/U-10-2552/CE, from LTG Burgess to OoO U/S for AT&L, it was cited that the initial effort was insufficient to classify the program or establish a special access program and recommended that the program could be better suited for another agency or component.

Source: https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/osd/konablue-release1.pdf (p. 45)

After the Kona Blue PSAP at DHS was rejected in December of 2011 (see pages 50-52 of the above document), the paper trail for AAWSAP/AATIP ends. I have not seen any primary sources that indicate Elizondo had any relationship with the actual AAWSAP program except his inclusion in Reid's proposed bigot list for the rejected AATIP SAP, or that AATIP was a separate program that was ever funded apart from the AAWSAP program. So I am inclined to believe Lacatski when he claims the Elizondo/Stratton "AATIP" was not a real program and was an informal effort they engaged in while keeping the nickname after AAWSAP ended.

Even in Elizondo's version of the story, it sounds like they had no funding for their version of "AATIP" after the AAWSAP contract ended and were just doing it on their own budget and time.

Long story short, Jay ran point on pulling off miracle after miracle and succeeded in getting Senator Reid to give us new funding—$10 million! We rejoiced for all of ten minutes, until we learned that another DoD program had absconded the funds. Jay and I felt kicked in the teeth. This happened because the language on the funding bill was ambiguous enough for someone in a powerful position to justify kicking the money to another line item.
To make matters worse, the world's biggest catch-22 hung over our heads. We knew who had taken the money, and how he expected to use the funds. We just couldn't openly fight for our money. If we did, we would expose the program. If we didn't fight for the money, we would have no other funding source.
Neill Tipton urged me to speak to his boss, John Pede, who was no stranger to black budgets. When I bumped into Pede in the hallway and
explained the situation, he said, "Damn, Lue, wish I had known earlier. I know the money you're asking about; it's being used to pay for some
academic studies. Had I known earlier, I could have helped."
He was right. We had kept our "bigoted" list of AATIP's members and allies small. We were afraid to make some people aware of the effort. I guess we might have been overly protective of the topic, so protective that we lost the money we needed to continue.
"I wish I could tell you what we need it for, but I am not at liberty to discuss the details at this time," I told Pede.
He smiled. "Believe it or not, I think I know what you are working on," he said, winking. Pede always struck me as having a brilliant mind. I suspected maybe he really did know.
Officially, we were on the skids, but we knew we could make it work on a shoestring. I had my own modest budget, and we could probably request other small funding disbursements on a case-by-case basis through a government process called "Overguidance."

Source: Imminent, pp. 112-113.

 

[Mendel]

Btw, same source, this is from public affair operations (Gough?):

• Mr. Elizondo had no responsibilities with regard to the AATIP program while he worked in OUSDI, up until the time he resigned effective 10/4/2017

.• He started with OUSD(I) on 28-Sep-08 as an Intelligence Operations Specialist.The Advanced Aviation Threat Identification Program:
• The Advanced Aviation Threat Identification Program ended in 2012. It was determined that there were other, higher priority issues that merited funding and it was in the best interest of the DoD to make a change.

My boldings. The person calls it "Aviation" instead of "Aerospace" and talks about it as a real program with funding. I suspect that it was a real program, if not a SAP, or possibly still used as a cover-name for a real SAP-program.

But everyone, even Elizondo now, try to make us think it was just some silly side project.

We've talked about this before, it'd be really great if you read up on the links I gave you previously.
There are numerous conflicting sources, and you really need to consider who knew what when, and what the primary sources are. Public Affairs is trying to answer a request years after the fact, and because of all the obfuscation (and because the project had options for 4 years, but was only extended once), their answer is not accurate.

Your first 2 points were probably pulled from an employee database, and they support that Elizondo kept his UFO activities under the radar of his superiors.

But you really cannot cherry-pick your sources; you quote my timeline in your initial post in this thread, and these are really all of the sources you need to consider together to be able to resolve the contradictions. You can't just choose them at your whim.

 

[boringrealit]

Yeah, that is interesting as a data point, but it has actually been known for a few years.

John Greenwald originally received an almost fully redacted list.
https://documents2.theblackvault.co...090624_Reid_to_DEPSECDEF_ref_AAITP_in_SAP.pdf

George Knapp released a version with Elizondo and Hal Puthoff unredacted.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/ind...eid,_then_US_Senate_Majority_Leader,_2009.pdf

Last year Steven Greenstreet released a copy of the full unredacted list.
x.com/MiddleOfMayhem/status/1943347336278872149

It shows there was some kind of connection between Elizondo and AAWSAP, but really doesn't tell us any more than that. We already knew he was somehow related to AAWSAP from his mentions in Skinwalkers at the Pentagon by James Lacatski, Colm Kelleher and George Knapp, where Stratton was bringing him to dinners and he was telling them about his alleged psychic abilities, and kept in touch with Stratton (p. 63).

Further down the dinner table sat Luis Elizondo, who worked collaboratively with Axelrod and was at the office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence (USDI). Elizondo looked dapper with jet black hair and was considered a brilliant Special Agent and analyst with a lot of expertise on counterintelligence investigations. Little did anyone at that dinner table realize that nine years later Lue Elizondo would become a media star and a household name in global UAP investigations.

As he enjoyed his steak tartare, Elizondo regaled those around him with some war stories, including one hair-raising exploit about how his advanced intuition and remote viewing capabilities had saved his life and the life of his men while on a covert combat mission in war-torn Afghanistan. Lue was one of that rare breed, an astute, detail-oriented analyst with an open mind. After that dinner meeting and the briefing the following day, he kept in close touch with Jonathan Axelrod as the project progressed.

The 2019 email you quote from the FOIA document (https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/osd/20-F-0163.pdf) is from pages 83-84 and begins with the statement, "I don't have an accurate accounting of his employment history with AATIP. I have been provided this statement from OUSD(I)." AAWSAP/AATIP was a DIA program so it's understandable that OSD public affairs would not have an accurate picture of the program.

In an email from 2019 on pp. 263-264, Neill Tipton, Elizondo's former boss at OUSDI said:

AATIP - "Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program" - name of the program initially created by Senators Reid and Inouye in 2008.

AAWSAP - "Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Application Program" - name of the contract that DIA executed and managed in accordance with the AATIP legislation.

To the questions that are being asked about Elizondo's purported role in AATIP. As Tara has said for Garry and as 1have said, Elizondo had no assigned responsibilities for this program. Elizondo worked for me from 2010 to early 2012. He worked for Garry for some years prior to his resignation from the government.

Of note and in the interest of absolute clarity:

I have seen one document that associates Elizondo with AATIP. It is a letter from Senator Reid's office, dated 24 June 2009 that requested a security assessment. It had an attachment with a list of names of proposed 'bigoted list of government personnel'. That list included Elizondo. That document was marked by Sen Reid's office as containing information exempt from mandatory disclosure under FOIA citing exemptions 1 and 5.

That letter from Senator Reid's office pre-dates Elizondo being assigned to my office. At the time he was assigned to me, he brought with him no responsibilities for AATIP (and I was unaware of its existence).

That one document is the only written association of Elizondo with AATIP, it has nothing about who is 'in charge' of AATIP, and as we've said he had no responsibilities for the program while under my or Garry Reid's oversight.

This is again a confusion about the relationship of AAWSAP/AATIP, but that is clarified in the much earlier DIA and USD Clapper memos from the time the program was active, cited previously. But it does show his actual bosses had no knowledge of him working for AAWSAP/AATIP.

Per Lacatski in Skinwalkers at the Pentagon, p. 145, AAWSAP/AATIP run for the duration of its contract and was shut down, leading them to look for other funding, leading them to DHS and the Kona Blue proposal.

The Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Applications Program (AAWSAP) ran for just over two years, including a three month no-cost-extension that concluded on December 21, 2010. Even as the program was shut down at DIA, AAWSAP principals began looking for alternative locations at which to house what had become both a highly successful program but also a political hot potato. Several attempts were made by members of AAWSAP in 2011 to secure a place at the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) after the shutdown of the effort at DIA. They are described in this and the next chapter.

This agrees with the DIA memos:

(U//FOUO) In November, 2009, Deputy Secretary of Defense Lynn and I met with Senator Reid to discuss this program. At that time, we determined the reports were of limited value to DIA. However, I did suggest they could be of merit to other organizations and that upon the completion of the DIA contract; the project could be transitioned to another agency or component better suited to oversee the project.

Source: https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/dia/AAWSAP/U-10-2552CE-IM-ATL.pdf

And the DHS memos:

(U) In a December 2009 meeting, LTG Burgess, Director of DIA and former DoD Deputy Sec. William Lynn communicated to Senator Reid that the DIA program could not be conducted by the Intelligence Community due to its potential growth. In addition, per an (undated) Info Memo, Subject: Advanced Aerospace Threat and Identification Program/U-10-2552/CE, from LTG Burgess to OoO U/S for AT&L, it was cited that the initial effort was insufficient to classify the program or establish a special access program and recommended that the program could be better suited for another agency or component.

Source: https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/osd/konablue-release1.pdf (p. 45)

After the Kona Blue PSAP at DHS was rejected in December of 2011 (see pages 50-52 of the above document), the paper trail for AAWSAP/AATIP ends. I have not seen any primary sources that indicate Elizondo had any relationship with the actual AAWSAP program except his inclusion in Reid's proposed bigot list for the rejected AATIP SAP, or that AATIP was a separate program that was ever funded apart from the AAWSAP program. So I am inclined to believe Lacatski when he claims the Elizondo/Stratton "AATIP" was not a real program and was an informal effort they engaged in while keeping the nickname after AAWSAP ended.

Even in Elizondo's version of the story, it sounds like they had no funding for their version of "AATIP" after the AAWSAP contract ended and were just doing it on their own budget and time.

Long story short, Jay ran point on pulling off miracle after miracle and succeeded in getting Senator Reid to give us new funding—$10 million! We rejoiced for all of ten minutes, until we learned that another DoD program had absconded the funds. Jay and I felt kicked in the teeth. This happened because the language on the funding bill was ambiguous enough for someone in a powerful position to justify kicking the money to another line item.
To make matters worse, the world's biggest catch-22 hung over our heads. We knew who had taken the money, and how he expected to use the funds. We just couldn't openly fight for our money. If we did, we would expose the program. If we didn't fight for the money, we would have no other funding source.
Neill Tipton urged me to speak to his boss, John Pede, who was no stranger to black budgets. When I bumped into Pede in the hallway and
explained the situation, he said, "Damn, Lue, wish I had known earlier. I know the money you're asking about; it's being used to pay for some
academic studies. Had I known earlier, I could have helped."
He was right. We had kept our "bigoted" list of AATIP's members and allies small. We were afraid to make some people aware of the effort. I guess we might have been overly protective of the topic, so protective that we lost the money we needed to continue.
"I wish I could tell you what we need it for, but I am not at liberty to discuss the details at this time," I told Pede.
He smiled. "Believe it or not, I think I know what you are working on," he said, winking. Pede always struck me as having a brilliant mind. I suspected maybe he really did know.
Officially, we were on the skids, but we knew we could make it work on a shoestring. I had my own modest budget, and we could probably request other small funding disbursements on a case-by-case basis through a government process called "Overguidance."

Source: Imminent, pp. 112-113.

I was mostly interested in the bit about it (or something under its name) being funded till 2012.

I agree that OSD probably didn't have a clear understanding of who was employed by some program under DIA, besides what Tipton mentioned about the list, but they should be able to find out the funding at least, I think. It might of course been some sloppy research on their part too.

But your mention of Tipton is interesting, because his and Elizondo's story doesn't fit. Elizondo described how Tipton knew what he was doing. On page 38 in the document Tipton writes "Thanks Lue. All good - although, at some point I need to know what this actually "is" ...." That is August 25, 2017.

In Elizondo's book he writes on page 191 that Tipton was briefed and was even going to take over running AATIP after Elizondo (the argument was something about rank and authority, not sure how Tipton ranked against Stratton back then). So either Elizondo or Tipton is lying. Even though Tipton is guarding himself a bit in the text you quoted above "That one document is the only written association of Elizondo with AATIP".

So if Elizondo is the one honest here, then Tipton was briefed in 2017, after that mail. I can't really see why Elizondo would lie about that part. I can see many reason why Tipton would want to lie, but I'm not sure which one is the correct one, if any.

 

[Mendel]

I was mostly interested in the bit about it (or something under its name) being funded till 2012.

Yes. And we learned from Elizondo and Lacatski who directed the project that it only had funding until 2010.
We only have reports from BAASS until 2010.
We have the Kona Blue records that prove the effort to gain new funding.

And we have the 2008 solicitation with 4 one-year extension options, which some PR person glanced at and mentally calculates to span 2008-2012.
We also have a dearth of documentation on AAWSAP overall, and obviously none on AATIP, which precludes the PR office from finding it. (Kinda the same situation as with the USG-held UFOs: can't find what doesn't exist.)

The 2012 number entered the record later, via people who had no direct knowledge, and it is contradicted by better sources. That means it should be discarded in favor of 2010, which is backed up by diverse better sources.

 

[MonkeeSage]

I was mostly interested in the bit about it (or something under its name) being funded till 2012.

I agree that OSD probably didn't have a clear understanding of who was employed by some program under DIA, besides what Tipton mentioned about the list, but they should be able to find out the funding at least, I think. It might of course been some sloppy research on their part too.

But your mention of Tipton is interesting, because his and Elizondo's story does fit. Elizondo described how Tipton knew what he was doing. On page 38 in the document Tipton writes "Thanks Lue. All good - although, at some point I need to know what this actually "is" ...." That is August 25, 2017.

In Elizondo's book he writes on page 191 that Tipton was briefed and was even going to take over running AATIP after Elizondo (the argument was something about rank and authority, not sure how Tipton ranked against Stratton back then). So either Elizondo or Tipton is lying. Even though Tipton is guarding himself a bit in the text you quoted above "That one document is the only written association of Elizondo with AATIP".

So if Elizondo is the one honest here, then Tipton was briefed in 2017, after that mail. I can't really see why Elizondo would lie about that part. I can see many reason why Tipton would want to lie, but I'm not sure which one is the correct one, if any.

Those are good points. The email exchanges between Tipton and Elizondo on pages 37-39 (starting from 39 and reading up, as the replies are all top posted so the bottom is the first email in the chain) and then page 24 (with 24 coming next after 37) are the relevant ones in https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/osd/20-F-0163.pdf.

The emails all took place over a short period between August 22nd and October 3rd. Sorry this is a bit long but I feel it's important to go through them understand the timeline and who knew what, when.

The first email (p. 39) Elizondo requests a "Program Meeting" about "our collective efforts" (Elizondo, with Stratton as the "Navy counterpart" perhaps) and Tipton accommodates.

Then the next email (p. 38) Elizondo is saying he thinks Tipton can "take our effort to the next level". Then we have Elizondo speculating that Tipton had already guessed Elizondo was working on a "nuanced" effort, and had been when he had previously worked under Tipton, seemingly because Elizondo had talked about UFOs and video with Tipton (the Navy videos that Mellon later leaked to the NY Times?). Elizondo talks about his "portfolio" and a "facility" Tipton will be able to use (one of the Bigelow properties mentioned in the Kona Blue proposal?)

Tipton's reply (p. 38) seems cordial for the vote of confidence, but confused by Elizondo's statements.

Then we have Elizondo in a new chain (p. 37 and also 25 is a duplicate page) about an "Update" requesting further discussion and mentions a "friend of the program" Tipton will be speaking to. Tipton appears to confirm he will have a discussion with a person the next day and he gives his availability to discuss further with Elizondo (though the email header is cut off so we don't actually have the date when the reply was sent).

Then a new chain from Elizondo (p. 24) about an unclassified draft letter. Most of Elizondo's email is redacted, but we can recover most of it from email included in a prior FOIA release (https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/navy/DON-NAVY-2021-007793.pdf p. 29). The subject is "DRAFT DepSECDEF letter (UNCLASSIFIED)" and Elizondo mentions creating a draft letter, apparently umprompted ("took the liberty") to help Tipton take over responsibilities for AATIP. So Elizondo does mention AATIP explicitly. Tipton's reply is that he has not read it but will do so and reply with thoughts that day or the next. That's the last email, from October 3rd, 2017.

In another FOIA document we learn from a memo from Garry Reid (Elizondo's boss, no relation to Harry Reid) that Elizondo abruptly resigned on October 3rd (https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/osd/18-F-0324.pdf p. 8).

Elizondo's resignation letter is terse (ibid, p. 6). He provides a longer "memo for record" on the next day (p. 7) stating his resignation is due to "beuacratic challanges and inflexible mindsets" about "further research" on "the phenomena".

I think a plausible reading of this chain of events is that Tipton had no idea what Elizondo was talking about, and after realizing, he wanted no part of it (because he didn't believe, or he thought it was beyond his paygrade or need to know, or whatever other reasons), which caused Elizondo to resign in protest when Tipton did not want to help take their "efforts" and "portfolio" to the "next level".

On this interpretation, I do not see contradiction with Tipton's previous statement about himself and Garry Reid being unaware of any AATIP program while Elizondo worked for them. Tipton could have been using guarded language about exactly when he knew about AATIP, as Elizondo seemingly told him about it in the days leading up to his retirement, but wouldn't change the overall impact of the statement regarding Elizondo's official duties under himself and Reid.

This interpretation also does not require Elizondo to be explicitly lying. In a previous quote from Imminent regarding budget, he presumed that Tipton's old boss, Pede, had figured out what Elizondo was "really" working on, with a knowing wink. He may have sincerely thought Tipton knew about his "nuanced efforts" and was on board because of their passing chit-chat about UFOs.

Another option would be that Elizondo was intentionally leaving a paper trail, having already decided to resign and implement the plan with Mellon and Stratton. Chris Mellon's email (https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/osd/20-F-0163.pdf p. 22) seems to be referring to the Tipton's emails (which are attached to his email) as a sort of leverage to get OSD/DoD not to push back on Elizondo's claims about AATIP.

Whatever the case may be on Elizondo's motives, I don't find anything here convincing that there was a real funded program that Elizondo ran/worked for.

 

[boringrealit]

Yes. And we learned from Elizondo and Lacatski who directed the project that it only had funding until 2010.
We only have reports from BAASS until 2010.
We have the Kona Blue records that prove the effort to gain new funding.

And we have the 2008 solicitation with 4 one-year extension options, which some PR person glanced at and mentally calculates to span 2008-2012.
We also have a dearth of documentation on AAWSAP overall, and obviously none on AATIP, which precludes the PR office from finding it. (Kinda the same situation as with the USG-held UFOs: can't find what doesn't exist.)

The 2012 number entered the record later, via people who had no direct knowledge, and it is contradicted by better sources. That means it should be discarded in favor of 2010, which is backed up by diverse better sources.

You are probably right, but I prefer to not discard anything that contradicts until I am sure it's just a mistake. To me the most interesting data is where there are contradictions, it might give an idea of where the conflict points are and a clue to people's motivations. I like to put the texts side by side to find the faultlines.

I find it interesting that Elizondo and Tipton disagree about what Tipton knew, or how Lacatski and Elizondo disagrees about AATIP, especially since they avoid as much as possible to call each other out, and how Elizondo's story has shifted over time.

My favorite conflict point however is WBers vs Lacatski. They are living in terror, fearing for their lives for what they know and have disclosed. Lacatski, on the other hand, sends his book to DOPSR and is allowed to say all sorts of outlandish things without any fear. That's some really interesting data.

 

[boringrealit]

Those are good points. The email exchanges between Tipton and Elizondo on pages 37-39 (starting from 39 and reading up, as the replies are all top posted so the bottom is the first email in the chain) and then page 24 (with 24 coming next after 37) are the relevant ones in https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/osd/20-F-0163.pdf.

The emails all took place over a short period between August 22nd and October 3rd. Sorry this is a bit long but I feel it's important to go through them understand the timeline and who knew what, when.

The first email (p. 39) Elizondo requests a "Program Meeting" about "our collective efforts" (Elizondo, with Stratton as the "Navy counterpart" perhaps) and Tipton accommodates.
View attachment 89937

Then the next email (p. 38) Elizondo is saying he thinks Tipton can "take our effort to the next level". Then we have Elizondo speculating that Tipton had already guessed Elizondo was working on a "nuanced" effort, and had been when he had previously worked under Tipton, seemingly because Elizondo had talked about UFOs and video with Tipton (the Navy videos that Mellon later leaked to the NY Times?). Elizondo talks about his "portfolio" and a "facility" Tipton will be able to use (one of the Bigelow properties mentioned in the Kona Blue proposal?)
View attachment 89938

Tipton's reply (p. 38) seems cordial for the vote of confidence, but confused by Elizondo's statements.
View attachment 89940

Then we have Elizondo in a new chain (p. 37 and also 25 is a duplicate page) about an "Update" requesting further discussion and mentions a "friend of the program" Tipton will be speaking to. Tipton appears to confirm he will have a discussion with a person the next day and he gives his availability to discuss further with Elizondo (though the email header is cut off so we don't actually have the date when the reply was sent).
View attachment 89941

Then a new chain from Elizondo (p. 24) about an unclassified draft letter. Most of Elizondo's email is redacted, but we can recover most of it from email included in a prior FOIA release (https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/navy/DON-NAVY-2021-007793.pdf p. 29). The subject is "DRAFT DepSECDEF letter (UNCLASSIFIED)" and Elizondo mentions creating a draft letter, apparently umprompted ("took the liberty") to help Tipton take over responsibilities for AATIP. So Elizondo does mention AATIP explicitly. Tipton's reply is that he has not read it but will do so and reply with thoughts that day or the next. That's the last email, from October 3rd, 2017.
View attachment 89942
View attachment 89943

In another FOIA document we learn from a memo from Garry Reid (Elizondo's boss, no relation to Harry Reid) that Elizondo abruptly resigned on October 3rd (https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/osd/18-F-0324.pdf p. 8).
View attachment 89946

Elizondo's resignation letter is terse (ibid, p. 6). He provides a longer "memo for record" on the next day (p. 7) stating his resignation is due to "beuacratic challanges and inflexible mindsets" about "further research" on "the phenomena".
View attachment 89947
View attachment 89948

I think a plausible reading of this chain of events is that Tipton had no idea what Elizondo was talking about, and after realizing, he wanted no part of it (because he didn't believe, or he thought it was beyond his paygrade or need to know, or whatever other reasons), which caused Elizondo to resign in protest when Tipton did not want to help take their "efforts" and "portfolio" to the "next level".

On this interpretation, I do not see contradiction with Tipton's previous statement about himself and Garry Reid being unaware of any AATIP program while Elizondo worked for them. Tipton could have been using guarded language about exactly when he knew about AATIP, as Elizondo seemingly told him about it in the days leading up to his retirement, but wouldn't change the overall impact of the statement regarding Elizondo's official duties under himself and Reid.

This interpretation also does not require Elizondo to be explicitly lying. In a previous quote from Imminent regarding budget, he presumed that Tipton's old boss, Pede, had figured out what Elizondo was "really" working on, with a knowing wink. He may have sincerely thought Tipton knew about his "nuanced efforts" and was on board because of their passing chit-chat about UFOs.

Another option would be that Elizondo was intentionally leaving a paper trail, having already decided to resign and implement the plan with Mellon and Stratton. Chris Mellon's email (https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/osd/20-F-0163.pdf p. 22) seems to be referring to the Tipton's emails (which are attached to his email) as a sort of leverage to get OSD/DoD not to push back on Elizondo's claims about AATIP.
View attachment 89949

Whatever the case may be on Elizondo's motives, I don't find anything here convincing that there was a real funded program that Elizondo ran/worked for.

Wow, nice job. It became much clearer what was going on. But I wish we had the names on who wrote what in the end of this one: https://documents2.theblackvault.com/documents/navy/DON-NAVY-2021-007793.pdf

I got a feeling that Tipton did his best to come up with excuses, but that might just be my imagination, since we have no idea if it was him or Elizondo that had scheduling issues.

I agree that it is possible that Tipton didn't know, or even didn't want to know, for some reason.

In the Imminent this episode is described at page 191-192. The people at the meeting was them plus some people called Shari and Brad. Not sure if those are their real names. Tipton agreed but delayed signing, and then went on some trip. Elizondo reacts very strange after that. As if the UAPs suddenly are an (imminent?) direct threat and not disclosing is"a security failure eclipsing that of 9/11".

This is what I mean with him suddenly jumping off and seeming desperate, but it makes no sense in context, at least not to me. Something is missing here.

There is also the paranoid behavior around the resignation letter. He say he wrote two, one for Garry Reid to give to Mattis, and one he sends directly to Mattis. I can understand if Reid got upset. Even in his own book Elizondo comes off as unhinged at this point.

Another thing. I have a suspicion that Elizondo wrote his book partly based on these emails. It's just a silly detail, mostly intuition, but he used the expression "nuanced" in the book when Tipton ask about what he is up to. Page 89 or maybe 90. Just my speculation.

 

[NorCal Dave]

My boldings. The person calls it "Aviation" instead of "Aerospace" and talks about it as a real program with funding. I suspect that it was a real program, if not a SAP, or possibly still used as a cover-name for a real SAP-program.

But everyone, even Elizondo now, try to make us think it was just some silly side project.

EDIT: Cross posted a bit with @MonkeeSage. My thread wasn't updating for some reason, so maybe a bit redundant

Even those in the UFO world that cling to the notion of Elizondo running an official government UFO program, still think it's just that, a government UFO program. You seem to have a unique take that AATIP and/or AAWSAP and Elizondo are related to some as yet unknown super secret project if I'm understanding you right. I don't see it.

As @MonkeeSage noted above in post #85 and as nearly all the available primary sources attest, the original program, that Reid arranged funding for and Lacatski wrote the RFP for, was called AAWSAP. It was administered by Lacatski from his position at DIA/DWO. The sole bidder was Bigelow's BAASS. I don't think that's in question.

As I noted up-thread, AAWSAP was a bit of a shell game with an RFP that requested papers on future aerospace technology, something Lacatski worked with, while actually providing BAASS with funding for a whole host of other activities, besides some actual technology papers. These other activities included UFOs, paranormal and other nonsense, but importantly it was providing funding to BAASS for things like work at Bigelow's Skinwalker Ranch and possibly funding for Bigelow to SCIF out a facility in Las Vegas. See link below to a thread discussing a questionable report from BAASS.

Exactly what BAASS did with the $22m is unclear, but they were paying staff and importantly paying rent on a facility in Las Vegas, among others. That facility was owned by Bigelow. This is a common tax trick often employed by professionals. A Medical Doctor may set up a professional practice and then a separate holding company that buys a building. The Dr's medical practice then rents the building from the same Dr's holding company. He rents from himself because of the tax advantages. It's a legal shell game

Bigelow was doing the same thing with BAASS, however, he was doing it with taxpayer money. And those taxpayer dollars Bigelow was running a shell game with, were being channeled by his fellow Nevadan, fellow church member and recipient of his campaign donations, Senator Reid. It could look a bit unsavory.

In addition there was the problem with the original RFP that created AAWSAP. It only asked for papers, but Bigelow was able to "read between the lines" of the RFP and provide what Lacatski and Reid really wanted, a UFO program centered around Bigelow's own Skinwalker Ranch. No other potential bidders understood this and as such, no other company bid on AAWSAP. Only Reid's campaign donor, Bigelow knew how to word the bid. Then there were people in the DIA and DoD that started to notice funds were going to things like UFOs. Again, it looks a bit unsavory.

So, Reid makes the request for SAP status, and to hide the name AAWSAP and potentially get even more people digging into what was going on, he and Lacatski come up with the name AATIP for the request. The request is denied and AAWSAP eventually lost funding. This is clear.

The confusing part happened when Elizondo and Stratton continued on looking for UFOs and using the name AATIP. The NYT ran with that and the 2 names became hopelessly intertwined. But even if AAWSAP became AATIP in an official capacity or AATIP was a sub program of AAWSAP, something for which there is little to no evidence, it was still associated with AAWSAP.

The idea that AAWSAP and /or AATIP were all just elaborate cover stories for some other secret programs is sketchy at best. There is some question as to what BAASS did with the $22m, but BAASS did receive it and BAASS received that money via Lacatski and AAWSAP. There is no record of AATIP funding anything, unless it's being confused with AAWSAP.

What do you think AATIP really was or was hiding?

Link to thread about BAASS report:

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/baass-ten-month-report-2009-leaked-document.14241/