Claim: The CIA Blocked the Transfer of Meta-materials From Crashed UFOs

[NorCal Dave]

I'll open this thread with a quote from @MonkeeSage in the thread on the November 2024 Congressional UAP hearings:

Rep. Burchett entered a document into the hearing record. The first page repeats a conspiracy theory about the CIA blocking transfer of UAP materials from Lockheed Martin to AAWSAP, followed by several old memos from the 1950's that appear (to me at least) to be unrelated.

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/november-13-2024-congress-hearings.13753/page-3

This conspiracy theory seems to have been floating around enough to end up in the documents for the recent hearings. Note, in this thread I'll just use the typical UFOlogy term "meta-materials" for supposed materials collected from crashed UFOs. It's not the proper use of the term, but is very common in UFO world

While in the thread on the hearings there were a few posts with information that made it appeared the claim was dubious at best, I looked into it a bit more. What's interesting is the way these stories and claims circulate and take on a life of their own. Here is the documents entered into the hearings by Rep. Burkett and provided by MonkeeSage:

https://docs.house.gov/meetings/GO/GO12/20241113/117721/HHRG-118-GO12-20241113-SD004.pdf

While hard to read, there is some sourcing and then the claim, which I've typed out below to make it easier to read, because it's quite the claim:

The $22M allocated for DIA AAWSAP, after speaking to multiple individuals on the program, was originally intended to SCIF-out Bigelow Aerospace Facilities in Las Vegas due to a UAP material divestment plan proposed to AAWSAP leadership by Lockheed Martin Space Systems Vice President Dr. James Ryder (now deceased).

A specific facility known to me was described as having crash retrieval material from the 1950s and other historical operations. They proposed a technology transfer agreement (TTR) into the proposed Waived PSAP Sen Reid was championing (See DIA FOIA release). Unfortunately, due to the sensitive nature of the TTA, UDI and OSD leadership were not specifically briefed on this proposal.

That is why, in "Skinwalkers at the Pentagon", they approached DHS S&T, Tara O'Toole to set up a PSAP. Ultimately the original government custodian, CIA DS&T, disapproved that transfer during a meeting with Glenn Gaffney while he was in that position. Instead, much of the money was used to produce Defense Intelligence Reference Documents (DIRDs) to possibly show value to the Legacy Program.

Where this actual wording comes from though is unclear. The references appear to be a New Yorker article that we've discussed before, a FOIA document and the book about AAWSAP, Skinwalkers at the Pentagon by Lacatski, Kelleher and Knapp, specifically page 152-153

Note the phrases "after speaking to multiple individuals on the program" and "A specific facility known to me". This claim seems to be coming from someone that spoke to several people involved with AAWSAP and has knowledge of Lockheed-Martian facilities or maybe government facilities run by Lockheed-Martin.

There are multiple claims in this to unpack, starting with the nature of AAWSAP. According to this person, the $22M that AWWSAP got for FY 2009-2010 was simply to construct a SCIF or secure facility at Bigelow Aerospace in Las Vegas. And that when this didn't happen, the money was spent on producing DIRDs. This would be completely counter to most of the public knowledge about AAWSAP, much of which is backed up by FOIA documents.

According to James Lacatski, the person that supposedly helped create AAWSAP and oversaw it from his office at DIA, the program was 2-fold. First it was to solicit proposals for papers and studies on possible future tech, things like warp drives and vacuum energy. The Request For Proposal (RFP) that Lacatski claims to have written is available through FOIA and supports this:

3. REQUIREMENTS: a) The contractor shall complete advanced aerospace weapon system technical studies in the following areas: 1. lift; 2. propulsion; 3. control; 4. power generation; 5. spatial temporal translation; 6. materials; 7. configuration, structure; 8. signature reduction (optical, infrared, radiofrequency, acoustic); 9. human interface; 10. human effects; 11. armament (RF and DEW); 12. other peripheral areas in support of (1-11); b) It is expected that numerous experts with extensive experience (minimum of 10 years) in breakthrough aerospace research and development will be required. c) A technical plan for conducting the advanced aerospace weapon system studies must be submitted by the contractor.

Kelleher, Colm A.. Skinwalkers at the Pentagon: An Insiders' Account of the Secret Government UFO Program. RTMA, LLC. Kindle Edition. PG. 21-22

Second, AAWSAP was about UFOs, the paranormal and Skinwalker Ranch, none of which was in the RFP. I'll not get into a lot of detail here as we covered a lot of this in the thread on the origins of AAWSAP, linked at the end. Importantly, Lacatski claimed that despite what the RFP said, those in the know would understand what was "really" being asked for and Robert Bigelow, a Reid campaign doner, appeared to be in the know. He formed a new company, Bigelow Advanced AeroSpace Services (BAASS) and it was the sole bidder for the AAWSAP RFP. BAASS's bid included lots of stuff, including working at Skinwalker Ranch which Bigelow owned and Lacatski claimed to have had a vision at while visiting, that had little to do with the original RFP:

"This was a UFO program period. That was its perfect purpose from the start," says Lacatski. "And furthermore, this was about how UFOs might fit into the realm of what we might consider the paranormal." Lacatski believed then, as now, that a study focused solely on UFOs—on various unknown, nuts-and-bolts-type craft flitting around in the skies over military bases and facilities—would never get to the heart of a much larger and complicated mystery. "You're going to be hunting for aliens cruising by from now until doomsday and you are never going to solve anything."

Kelleher, Colm A.. Skinwalkers at the Pentagon: An Insiders' Account of the Secret Government UFO Program. RTMA, LLC. Kindle Edition. pg. 25

While it's not known where nearly all of the $22M went, there is at least $350,000 that ended up at MUFON, who showed it in their tax filings. That is consistent with what's in the book. So, besides the FOIA documents, there is at least some outside evidence supporting the books' account:

I guess the argument would be everything in the book is all AFTER the attempt to create a SCIF at Bigelow's shop in Las Vegas fell through. That does make for an interesting take on AAWSAP. While we think of that program as a boondoggle that transferred 22$M to Bigelow's BAASS because Lacatski wanted to look for weird stuff at Skinwalker Ranch and used the DIRDs as sort of a cover story, maybe AAWSAP is a cover up of a boondoggle.

IF there is any truth to the claim of the $22M being originally sourced to build a SCIF for Reid's doner, Bigelow, regardless of if it was for meta-materials or anything else, that's the real boondoggle. When that fell through, Reid enlisted Lacatski to create a different program to funnel the money to Bigelow. The problem is, the claim about the SCIF says the money was shifted to create the DIRDs, which BAASS contracted with Hal Puthoff's EarthTech to handle. IF, the entire or most of the $22M went towards the DIRDs, then that's an average of ~$600,000 per paper, which seems a bit steep. And it would mean all the other stuff at Skinwalker Ranch and the UFO hunting that the book claims either didn't happen or happened, but more like AATIP, it's a bunch of guys running around doing a side gig. However, that would mean people like Lacatski, Stratton, Kelleher and others are in on the deception I would think. Just doesn't make sense.

As for the book and the claim, Lacatski, Puthoff and others met with O'Toole of DHS, but there is no mention of them doing this because of a possible meta-material transfer, rather this is when Reid and Lacatski were shopping AAWSAP around so they could move it out of the DoD, hopefully as an SAP. The meeting described what might be the origins of KONA BLUE.

Lacatski had supposedly met with Sacha Mover and Jim Bell of DHS previous to the O'Toole meeting. In a SCIF he claims he told these two every weird thing about AAWSAP/BAASS and Skinwalker Ranch, werewolves and all:

Lacatski sat down at the conference table in the SCIF with the DHS's Jim Bell and Sacha Mover and began the briefing with the history of AAWSAP and BAASS,

Then, about an hour into the briefing, technically when the meeting should have ended, Lacatski abandoned all caution and the flood gates opened. What followed was arguably one of the most astounding and riveting briefings of "nuts and bolts" UAPs, paranormal phenomena, poltergeist activity, and more ever heard in a United States Government SCIF. The bizarre creatures that were encountered on and around Skinwalker Ranch were described in excruciating detail, and Lacatski recounted cases involving multiple encounters with blue orbs as well as other details of UAP investigations that were extracted from the detailed monthly reports that BAASS had submitted to DIA for the two-year duration of the AAWSAP.

Kelleher, Colm A.. Skinwalkers at the Pentagon: An Insiders' Account of the Secret Government UFO Program (p. 143). RTMA, LLC. Kindle Edition.

But nothing about meta-materials. According to the book, Lacatski, Puthoff and Kelleher make no mention of UFOs, meta-materials or other weirdshitology at Skinwalker Ranch, when they met with O'Toole, rather they supposedly impress O'Toole with their tech and sensor arrays, though they did apparently mention the "blue orbs" that Elizondo would later talk about:

Bell had set up the meeting to brief Secretary O'Toole on the top level BAASS program mission goals. Lacatski, Kelleher, Puthoff, and Black were there to answer any technical questions before exploring any areas of commonality that might lead to a BAASS-like program under the auspices of the Science and Technology umbrella at DHS. Specifically, the briefing would focus on the commonality of sensor technology applied to both a BAASS-like program and a collaborative Science & Technology program under the roof of the DHS.

Then Kelleher quickly briefed her on the sensor driven strategies utilized on Skinwalker Ranch. Black and Kelleher then focused the rest of the discussion with Dr. O'Toole on some of the medical investigations that BAASS had initiated. O'Toole listened with great interest as Black and Kelleher recounted the 2005 case of the Ron Becker encounter with blue orbs that had culminated in a host of biological and medical issues.

Kelleher, Colm A.. Skinwalkers at the Pentagon: An Insiders' Account of the Secret Government UFO Program (p. 149-150). RTMA, LLC. Kindle Edition

There is no mention of meta-materials, a TTA or Lockheed-Martin, even at the meeting with Mover and Bell where Lacatski supposedly spilled the beans about AAWSAP/BAASS. The claim in the book is that O'Toole, Sacha Mover, Jim Bell and others at DHS wanted to move forward with BAASS and a new program. It was later squashed by a higher up in DHS.

Recall that KONA BLUE was a proposed SAP at DHS that never happened and that according to ARRO, several people had inserted UFO/UAP/HUI sections into the proposed program. KONA BLUE thread linked at the end.

Just speculating here, but that sounds like this meeting could have been part of that. It was presented as a project about sensors and technology and started the approval process, only to be canceled later, maybe after the SWR crew started to be more forthcoming or what they had been claiming made it further up the chain.

According to the book, after the O'Toole meeting, Sacha Mover of DHS shared with the AAWSAP/BAASS guys a UFO story involving the MiBs. Again, speculating a bit here, but maybe this is where the AAWSAP/BAASS guys share the idea of meta-materials being held somewhere. Puthoff in particular has a history of making this claim. Next thing after the meeting Mover and Bell pull an AATIP and go looking for meta-materials, though there is no real reason giving for this little adventure:

Shortly after the successful meeting with O'Toole at DHS, Sacha Mover and Jim Bell began knocking on doors beyond DHS to connect with the "keepers of the secrets" in at least two other agencies. In these meetings, which took place in June-July 2011, Sacha, Jim, and colleagues were treated rudely and harshly. Bell and Mover were repeatedly told "no, and hell no." This left Mover and Bell convinced that advanced technology was sequestered under government supervision at aerospace contractors' facilities. As a result, the DHS officials became very hesitant and even fearful of moving forward. Perhaps Mover and Bell only belatedly realized the unique, game changing, and earth-shattering nature of the biggest secret ever kept by the United States.

Kelleher, Colm A.. Skinwalkers at the Pentagon: An Insiders' Account of the Secret Government UFO Program (p. 152). RTMA, LLC. Kindle Edition.

The only other mention of what might be called meta-materials and defense contractors is in the recommendations part of the book. How the government or a private group should follow up on AAWSAP includes a heading of Advanced Technology Department with this description (bold by me):

The Advanced Technology Department (ATC) would focus on gathering (a) reports and (b) physical samples of very advanced technologies which, according to the public record, are in the custody of certain aerospace and government contractors as well as other government sources. Another major objective of the ATC is to extend the analysis of this putative technology beyond the present limits as a means of developing novel countermeasures to future technological threats. Many of these concepts have been discussed with multiple private sector companies and civilian sector leadership.

Since much of the analysis previously conducted by aerospace corporations is decades old, a re-analysis with more modern equipment and technology will be necessary under the auspices of the Advanced Technology Department.

Kelleher, Colm A.. Skinwalkers at the Pentagon: An Insiders' Account of the Secret Government UFO Program (pp. 202-203). RTMA, LLC. Kindle Edition.

Even here it's giving as "public record" and not a secret.

So, that's along winded way of saying that using pages 150-152 from Skinwalker at the Pentagon as a source for the claim about a SCIF and TTA with DHS is misleading at best. The book describes a meeting with O'Toole of DHS with no mention of materials or a TTA. Sometime after that meeting, Mover and Bell of DHS take it upon themselves to go looking for meta-materials and after being told "no" they decide the materials are held by contractors. There's really nothing in the book to support the claim of meta-materials or TTA of said materials.

The other source is an article from the New Yorker, which I've quoted often. It's a long history of UFOs, including a hagiography of Lesli Kean, a mention of Mick West's debunking being "demoralizing" for people that take "solace" in the idea of aliens and this one little blurb about the AAWSAP/BAASS guys:

Bigelow's researchers, convinced that crash debris was being hidden in some remote hangar, wanted access to the government's classified data on U.F.O.s. In June, 2009, Senator Reid filed a request that the program be awarded "restricted special access program," or SAP, status.

https://web.archive.org/web/2021043...ow-the-pentagon-started-taking-ufos-seriously

There's no real evidence of anything, just that Bigelow's people thought there were meta-materials stashed somewhere. Again, this is something Puthoff, a Bigelow researcher, has been saying for decades.

While I still can't figure out who made the original statement in the Burchett document, here is how the story appears in Chris Sharp's Liberation Times:

Gold's former boss, Robert Bigelow, played a key role in efforts to transfer materials of advanced, non-human origin from Lockheed Martin to a program within the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) known as the Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Applications Program (AAWSAP).

When efforts failed, those involved in AAWSAP helped establish a Prospective Special Access Program (PSAP) within the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) as an alternative means to accomplish the transfer. That effort also failed.

Speaking to Liberation Times, multiple sources claimed that these material transfer efforts were blocked by former CIA Director of Science and Technology, Glenn Gaffney, when he held the position.

Gaffney's alleged interference in the material transfer left those involved—including the now-deceased James Ryder, former Vice President of Lockheed Martin Space Systems, who is said to have led efforts within Lockheed Martin—feeling threatened due to the harshness of exchanges with CIA officials.

Ultimately, Liberation Times understands that the transfer was blocked by Gaffney, as the CIA's Directorate of Technology remains the original custodian of the alleged non-human materials, which Lockheed Martin may still possess to this day.

https://www.liberationtimes.com/home/witnesses-announced-for-landmark-ufo-congressional-hearing

As is common with Mr. Sharp's writings, there is no sourcing at all. Somebody, possibly the same person that is quoted in Burchett's documents seems to have told him this story.

@MonkeeSage shared this section from ARRO addressing the claim:

And ARRO's investigation:

https://www.aaro.mil/Portals/136/PD...t_Vol_1_2024.pdf?ver=WwWcCg5XNKBtz9PnBXMI8A== pgs 28-31

However, the first part is missing the last line, and it should read:

An interviewee86 claimed that an organization87 was in possession of off-world material in 2009 and 2010. A separate interviewee stated they participated in negotiations to return the material to the USG. The same interviewee stated that a former named senior CIA official quashed the proposal to remove the material from the corporation.

We have one interviewee claiming that the meta-material was in possession of an organization (Lockheed-Martin?) exactly at the time AASWAP was funded and running. It's a separate interviewee that claims to have been in on the negotiations AND names a senior CIA official, Glenn Gaffney, who quashed the efforts. I would think these "interviewees" are our prime source for this claim but unfortunately ARRO keeps all the names private. There is of course speculation about who some of these people are and I've had some private chats with others trying to work out some of the claims with potential and known interviewees using ARROs cluse. As expected, it leads to lots of speculation.

So, it seems to be one of those UFO stories that many people tell and retell, but has no real source that can be pinned down. We know at least one person made this claim to ARRO and I would argue, is likely the same person that is quoted in Burchett's documents and the Liberation Times article.

In the Burchett document it's presented with what appears to be proper sourcing, however none of the listed sources really confirm the central claim. Yes, Harry Ried tried to get AAWSAP made into an SAP, but that could be for any number of reasons. From getting Bigelow a SCIF at taxpayers' expense to hiding that AAWSAP was using the $22M to look for 7' bipedal wolves at SWR. It's not clear. And yes, Reis tried to get an SAP version of AAWSAP launched DHS, possibly as KONA BLUE, but that never happened.

If we want to have a little fun, we can look at Michael Shellenberger's supposed "UFO Timeline" that he presented to congress in the first UAP hearings. We've discussed that it's just a collection of rumors, hearsay and dubious sources. However, several of the claims in the timeline come from Jaques Vallee's memoirs, Forbidding Science. Unfortunately, it's 5 volumes and even the Kindel editions are $10 a pop, so I'll just do what Shellenberger did and share some stuff 2nd hand.

As noted, Hal Puthoff was present in the AAWSAP/BAASS meeting with O'Toole and the claim is that this supposed piece of meta-material was help by Lockheed-Martin. According to Vallee:

- 28 March 2004 — Jacques Vallee writes that while at a meal with Kit Green, Hal Puthoff, Eric Davis and Kristin B Zimmerman, the group speculates that the four USG contractors who touch the "real" UAP project(s) are Lockheed Martin, the Aerospace Corporation, Raytheon which now owns Hughes, and Northrop-Grumman which now owns TRW.

25 April 2002 — CMDR Will Miller writes to Eric Davis and Hal Puthoff and offers them his contractual services into research of UAP crash retrievals and entities within the government and outside of government that are "involved in that business."

- 6 March 2004 — Former NIDS consultant James Westwood tells Jacques Vallee there are four secret "iron post" sources that Hal Puthoff and Eric Davis deem to be unimpeachable and connected to the IC. They confirm the existence of one hidden project reverse engineering "alien" hardware.

5 Jan 2007 — Hal Puthoff tells Jacques Vallee that he and Eric Davis are pursuing a Lockheed Martin technology for a jet hovercraft tested in the 1960s that looks like a flying disc.

4 August 2007 — Hal Puthoff tells Jacques Vallee he thinks he knows where "the right people" hide with respect to the secret UFO hardware structure. Puthoff says he believes the government still provides a funding path and a security umbrella, but control of the technical items are in the private sector and the contractors can "trump" government requests. Hal says the contractors tell the relevant USG oversight it's their way or the highway.

And finaly that Bigelow was hoping to get access to contractors with UAP:

2 October 2008 — Bob Bigelow tells Jacques Vallee that the AAWSAP project has officially kicked off, but the sponsor (DIA) hasn't delivered any access that was promised. Opening certain doors, intros to potentially key personnel at contractors that may have worked on UAP in the past, etc. None of that happened as of that time.

Above quotes are from Vallee's Forbidding Science, Pacific Heights Vol. 5 2000-2009 and pulled from Shellenberger's UAP Timeline: https://pdfhost.io/v/gR8lAdgVd_Uap_Timeline_Prepared_By_Another

So, according to Vallee, Puthoff and Davis were often going on about secret UFO crash programs and the contractors that might hold the material. We also know that according to Chris Mellon, he sent Puthoff and Davis, along with Elizondo to testify before ARRO:

I introduced Dr. Kirkpatrick to the former Director of the AATIP program, Lue Elizondo, as well as Dr. Eric Davis and Dr. Hal Putoff. Each of these prominent voices associated with the AATIP program spent hours briefing Dr. Kirkpatrick in a classified setting. None have received any feedback.

Source: https://twitter.com/ChrisKMellon/status/1750294265597428216


Two guys that are convinced the US government has crashed UFOs. Two guys that were involved in AAWSAP and with Bigelow's NIDS prior. Two guys that thought Lockheed-Martin was a likely place for the crash material to be kept. Two guys that testified to ARRO. One of whom was involved in meeting with O'Toole. If they're not the source, I think they know who is.

Still, if I put on my tin foil hat, I find something intriguing about Bigelow and Reid trying to get federal money for Bigelow's personal SCIF for meta-materials, that Puthoff and others had convinced them existed and when that failed, they concocted AAWSAP to still get the money to Bigelow and via BAASS onto Puthoff's EarthTech.

Discussion of AAWSAP:

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/the-origins-of-aawsap.12484/

Discussion of KONA BLUE:

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/kona-blue-aaro-report-on-the-proposed-aawsap-successor.13434/

 

[Mendel]

It sounds to me much like an operation where the conspirators think that the government has UFO materials, and they try to position themselves such that the people in charge of these materials will want to share these with them: by building a SCIF at BAASS ("Build An Alien Space Ship"?) and by establishing a classified SAP. But they are really only going off rumors and wishful thinking.

(They're also so bad at security and science that even if there was a secret UFO program, I'm sure they'd pass on involving these guys.)

It's wishful thinking, based on rumors. And most of the narrative has been debunked, starting with the claim of 1930s Italian UFO in US posession.

 

[MapperGuy]

It sounds to me much like an operation where the conspirators think that the government has UFO materials, and they try to position themselves such that the people in charge of these materials will want to share these with them: by building a SCIF at BAASS ("Build An Alien Space Ship"?) and by establishing a classified SAP. But they are really only going off rumors and wishful thinking.

(They're also so bad at security and science that even if there was a secret UFO program, I'm sure they'd pass on involving these guys.)

It's wishful thinking, based on rumors. And most of the narrative has been debunked, starting with the claim of 1930s Italian UFO in US posession.

I think your analysis is on the mark.

Certain people wanted to gain access to crashed UFOs; probably from the first time they read about Roswell. So over time they have repeatedly tried to position themselves to become "the people who should have custody of all of the governments UFO material". Then the unknown organizations who DID have the UFO material would be obliged to turn it all over to this group.

But it has never worked. The real reason being the fact the government does not actually have any UFO's. But the true believers will not accept this simple truth. So there must be a vast conspiracy to hide the UFOs away... And here we are today.

The military and the intelligence community have studiously ignored the whole UFO business for decades because there are real secrets to protect and real work that needs to be done to protect the nation. If they had ever actually found a flying saucer that fact would have leaked out in minutes, and every budget request to Congress since would have been built around that fact.

EDIT: I think the term meta-materials has been pretty much all along just a code term for flying saucers.

 

[NorCal Dave]

I think the term meta-materials has been pretty much all along just a code term for flying saucers.

There is a proper scientific use of the word in chemistry and materials science, but in the UFO world it is often used to refer to pieces and parts from recovered crashed UFOs. That's why I used it here. I did a deep dive into some of the more famous supposed bits of UFO meta-materials in this thread:

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/meta-materials-from-ufos.12995/

 

[MonkeeSage]

I think Burchett's document is confusing because it is conflating parts of AAWSAP history with parts of Kona Blue history with regard to budget and stated purpose and deliverables, and conflating Reid's DIA SAP request letter for "AATIP" in 2009 with the Kona Blue Prospective SAP under DHS in 2011.

KB documents: https://www.aaro.mil/Portals/136/PDFs/UAP_RECORDS_RESEARCH/AARO_DHS_Kona_Blue.pdf

On page 36 of the KB documents is the memo from O'Toole approving KB as a PSAP under DHS and requesting final approval from SAPCO/SAPOC. Pages 37-38 have the minutes of the SAPOC meeting where O'Toole was requesting approval. Pages 39-45 have the informational document that was provided to SAPOC. Pages 46-47 have the memo from O'Toole to DHS Deputy Secretary Lute requesting approval of the PSAP as an actual SAP.

Pages 48-49 are a memo with notes from a meeting with Lute and SAPCO where Lute rejects the SAP request and shuts down the PSAP.

Page 50 has a memo for record from SAPCO that reiterates the same.

Lacatscki essentially agrees with this info in Skinwalkers at the Pentagon (though he interprets the motivation for the rejection as being "too fringe" rather than lacking merit to warrant a SAP), p. 154.

From July to December 2011, the Science & Technology (S&T) group at DHS worked with BAASS to firm up the details of the proposed new BAASS-like organization that might be integrated into S&T. Multiple proposals were submitted, edited, discussed, and fine-tuned with Jim Lacatski acting as intermediary with DHS. The BAASS group were told that O'Toole was a positive proponent of this initiative, and by late 2011, the initiative had reached a point where a meeting of the leadership was to take place.

The primary decision maker at DHS regarding integration of the BAASS-like program into DHS was Deputy Secretary Jane Holl Lute, who was second in command at the Department. Lute has since retired from DHS. In addition to Lute, there were three other main decision makers in upper DHS management. They were the Undersecretary of Management and the DHS General Counsel. A third very important participant in the decision-making process was then Under Secretary for Intelligence and Analysis Phyllis Green, who had a reputation as a consummate intelligence professional and a "no nonsense" senior decision maker at DHS.

In November 2011, Jane Holl Lute was convinced that the proposed BAASS-like program "was a go." But Phyllis Green was skeptical of the
data that had been obtained by BAASS, and in particular she was concerned that the controversial BAASS subject matter, if it were ever made public, would bring disrepute to the DHS as a fledgling organization trying to be taken seriously by other government departments. Ultimately,
Undersecretary Phyllis Green proved to be a powerful, logical voice in the small select group of DHS leadership, and the consensus decision emerged not to proceed with the BAASS-like program at DHS. BAASS was seen as too fringe.

I think the document from Burchett is misattributing the funding of AAWSAP/BAAS to the KB PSAP, which was never funded, and conflating the KB PSAP program description and deliverables with the AAWSAP ones, which on paper were the DIRD reports and a threat assessment report (cf. "Deliverables" pp. 6-7 in AAWSAP Statement of Objectives from 2008).

In the KB documents, the actual SAP proposal form (pp. 17-33) does reference technology transfer from private sector companies without naming names or providing details, and vaguely implies that such materials do exist.

p. 17

p. 18

p.19

p. 22

p. 23

DHS leadership didn't think the "justifications...were adequate" to establish a SAP, which I can only think was at least partly based on lack of credible evidence to support this idea of recovered materials (in addition to the "too fringe" stuff like remote viewing, teleportation, time travel and telepathy [cf. "Consciousness Center" pp. 28-29]).

The CIA interference part is not corroborated by Lacatski and feels to me like a story someone made up after to the fact to explain why no materials were ever received from Lockheed and/or why the KB proposal was rejected.

Regarding Bigelow (mis)spending AAWSAP money to "SCIF-out" facilities as Butchett's document puts it, I think the KB SAP proposal form lends credence to that idea. The names are redacted, but they are the same length and the third paragraph is obviously referring to Skinwalker Ranch, which would make the redacted name Robert Bigelow.

p. 32

So I suspect some chunk of the $22M went towards creating the new, never occupied, five building complex with two SCIF accredited rooms and big lab in the 2009-2010 time frame before DIA dropped AAWSAP.

 

[Mendel]

EDIT: I think the term meta-materials has been pretty much all along just a code term for flying saucers.

it's a 'scientifical' word, for sure.

in UFOlogy, an "unidentified anomalous phenomenon" stands for "this is something we can't explain, therefore it's aliens non-human intelligence" without establishing that that's what it is (it helps if you don't try too hard, or explicitly say it's not what it looks like it is).

and "metamaterial" stands for "this is an object we can't explain, therefore it's from an alien craft", without establishing that that's where it came from (it helps if you send high voltage through it). one of these metamaterials has been identified as a windmill part, and then the narrative changed to "the aliens made it to look like that" even though it was just a bit someone picked off the ground outside. Avi Loeb dredging up 'spherules' off the ocean floor because a meteorite had passed overhead and claiming they're interstellar works the same way.

so "metamaterial" actually means "piece of junk we can claim came from a flying saucer" without them having to produce the flying saucer it came from, or even knowing which part of the saucer it's supposed to be. TTSA had one such piece of junk tested by the army after they claimed it had anti-grav properties (it didn't); AARO had Oak Ridge Labs have a look at it, and they debunked it. (see https://www.aaro.mil/UAP-Records/ )

in UFO lore, military crash teams retrieve the flying saucers, store them safely, and take them apart, and then give the unknown materials to civilian scientists for analysis without telling them what it is. that's how it makes sense to have UFO parts but no UFOs. Having their hands on some genuine 'meta-materials' would help UFOlogists mitigate the fact that there've been no tangible UFOs ever. (This is a failure of the same order as Flat Earthers not having a working map.)

 

[NorCal Dave]

I think the document from Burchett is misattributing the funding of AAWSAP/BAAS to the KB PSAP, which was never funded, and conflating the KB PSAP program description and deliverables with the AAWSAP ones, which on paper were the DIRD reports and a threat assessment report (cf. "Deliverables" pp. 6-7 in AAWSAP Statement of Objectives from 2008).

Indeed sir! That makes a lot of sense when these documents you found are added to the story. I still had one sticking point, that may just be a minor mix-up in the telling of these stories and that's this:

The $22M allocated for DIA AAWSAP, after speaking to multiple individuals on the program, was originally intended to SCIF-out Bigelow Aerospace Facilities in Las Vegas due to a UAP material divestment plan proposed to AAWSAP leadership by Lockheed Martin Space Systems Vice President Dr. James Ryder (now deceased).

Whoever is making this claim, is saying AAWSAP was an afterthought to spend the $22M when the material transfer failed to occur. I'm thinking this line from the quote is really saying this is 2nd hand information being passed on:

after speaking to multiple individuals on the program

This person is making the mistake you're talking about and conflating AAWSAP with what was supposed to be KONA BLUE. That makes sense. It would be fun to see the full transcript, if there is one, of the interviews with the 2 witnesses that talked to ARRO about this. Now I'm thinking this claim about the money being for a SCIF at first, is likely not in those claims. Our witness in the Burkett document likely spoke to one or both of these ARRO witnesses and confabulated or confused a bit of what the heard.

There is also this little tidbit from Vallee's memoirs more or less confirming Lacatski's claims of how AASWAP came about:

21 October 2007 — Bob Bigelow tells Jacques Vallee he received a letter from the DIA expressed interest in UAP research at Skinwalker Ranch. The letter says one of their personnel went to the ranch and saw something unexplained. The man who runs the project is a GS15 reporting to managers who are eager to move; Bob says any time he mentions a case the DIA contacts already have all the details and say it's their job to look 20 to 30 years into the future.

Vallee's Forbidding Science, Pacific Heights Vol. 5 2000-2009 and pulled from Shellenberger's UAP Timeline: https://pdfhost.io/v/gR8lAdgVd_Uap_Timeline_Prepared_By_Another

If true, this is Vallee hearing about what created AAWSAP long before AAWSAP was around.

Lastly, much of the proposal language for KONA BLUE, like the Advanced Technology Department made it into Skinwalkers at the Pentagon as recommendation for a future private UAP program. Round and round it goes.