Scientific paper stating airborne barium releases 'responsible' for human illness

Woody

Member
I have this report in pdf but don't recall where it is online, but its one of the most honest reports I have read. "Results from human and animal studies suggest that the respiratory tract, particularly the lung, is a sensitive target of airborne aluminum toxicity; human studies also suggest that the nervous system may also be a target of [FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]16 ALUMINUM [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]2. RELEVANCE TO PUBLIC HEALTH
[/FONT]
[/FONT]inhaled aluminum. Interpretation of the human data is complicated by the lack of exposure assessment and the potential for concomitant exposure to other toxic compounds. Numerous studies have found impaired lung function in a variety of aluminum workers (Abbate et al. 2003; Al-Masalkhi and Walton 1994; Bast-Pettersen et al. 1994; Bost and Newman 1993; Burge et al. 2000; Chan-Yeung et al. 1983; Herbert et al. 1982; Hull and Abraham 2002; Jederlinic et al. 1990; Korogiannos et al. 1998; Miller et al. 1984b; Radon et al. 1999; Simonsson et al. 1985; Vandenplas et al. 1998). Other effects that have been observed include occupational asthma (Abramson et al. 1989; Burge et al. 2000; Kilburn 1998; Vandenplas et al. 1998) and pulmonary fibrosis (Al-Masalkhi and Walton 1994; De Vuyst et al. 1986; Edling 1961; Gaffuri et al. 1985; Gilks and Churg 1987; Jederlinic et al. 1990; Jephcott 1948; McLaughlin et al. 1962; Mitchell et al. 1961; Musk et al. 1980; Riddell 1948; Shaver 1948; Shaver and Riddell 1947; Ueda et al. 1958; Vallyathan et al. 1982). "
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
Maybe, but this doesn't take away from one fact, if you have low levels of aluminum in your system, you will not be subjected to Alzheimer's when you get older.

What utter nonsense. Have you the evidence to show a direct correlation between aluminium and alzheimers. In the 80's when I trained as a nurse there were countless Alzheimers patients on the ward all of whom would have had limited aluminium from dietary sources due to been committed for most of their life.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
I have this report in pdf but don't recall where it is online, ....

Post or search for the title.



Results from human and animal studies suggest that the respiratory tract, particularly the lung, is a sensitive target of airborne aluminum toxicity; human studies also suggest that the nervous system may also be a target of inhaled aluminum....

so still no direct link then - suggestions are a good place to start more finely targeted research.

Edit: Found it on the CDC site......which means it can't possibly be true of course - the CDC lies about everything.....;)

It also says:

Emphasis is mine of course - and as anyone with an ounce of common sense should know CHRONIC exposure to anything is usually bad for health - anyone working with any dust will tell you that you don't want to inhale it - whether it be aluminium or anything from pollen to walnut shell bead blasting!!
 

Woody

Member
http://www.academicjournals.org/ajb/PDF/pdf2010/29Dec Special Review/Chen et al.pdf

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp22.pdf

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp24.pdf

When looking to our upper most limits, we are limited to the children, or the pediatricians perspective. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2011/11/30/peds.2010-3481.full.pdf

Like a canary in a mine shaft, so are the conifers to us on the surface, they are apparently the first to react with a noticeable impact.
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
"About 20 years ago, scientists noticed that the brains of people with Alzheimer's disease had high levels of aluminum" http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/26/health/26real.html?_r=0

A possible link between Aluminium and memory issues was first theorised way back in 1921 http://www.scopus.com/record/displa...D8A586587BE629F98A4A74.CnvicAmOODVwpVrjSeqQ:2 and it has been researched ever since (a main been Klatzo in 1965??). The concensus is there is no causal link between Alzheimers and aluminium but more the fact of any aluminium accumulation may to impaired metabolism especially on plaques in the neurones.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
Across Minnesota and much of the nation we are seeing some plant species die unexpectedly and rapidly.
Where is your evidence for this?

Woody said:
Attached are a series of pictures of two species dying so rapidly that their needles are still intact. There is a lake over the ridge and these trees have plenty of water available, sapling show good rooting in areas where these species are dying. Invasive species generally takes time to invade an area, this is throughout the state of the past year.
What species, exactly?
What invasive species?
Of what relevance to your claim are invasive species?

Woody said:
The DNR and others are looking into it, but according to my water samples and visual discoveries, I believe it is acidic soils caused from an abundance of magnesium and other elements, possible aluminum as well. It is vital, no matter what the cause, that we find the source before we see the great northern woods die. The species being affected the most is a juniper and long needled pine. The colors look like fall but that's because of their rapid death and the needles still intact.

How many water samples do you have? You only showed one so far.
What "visual discoveries"?
magnesium levels haven't risen in Minnesota:
woody.JPG

By the way, Woody. None of your attached images are showing......
 

Belfrey

Senior Member.
Across Minnesota and much of the nation we are seeing some plant species die unexpectedly and rapidly. Attached are a series of pictures of two species dying so rapidly that their needles are still intact.

Woody, I'm also interested in your statements regarding tree mortality, because I'm a biologist who specializes in such issues. As Jay said, your pictures aren't showing up, but's normal for conifers to retain brown foliage for a while after they die. I'm interested in your claim that it's due to acidic soils - how acidic? The juniper and pine species in your area generally do well in acidic soils. Also, I'd note that it runs contrary to the WITWATS claim that the "spray" increases soil pH.

There are some issues (such as heterobasidion/annosum root disease) that are known to affect both pines and junipers on the same sites.
 

Woody

Member
Where is your evidence for this?


What species, exactly?
What invasive species?
Of what relevance to your claim are invasive species?



How many water samples do you have? You only showed one so far.
What "visual discoveries"?
magnesium levels haven't risen in Minnesota:
View attachment 3281

By the way, Woody. None of your attached images are showing......
Evidence is, there dead, visual observation and I am leaving it up to the experts to explore the cause and species involved.
 

Woody

Member
Woody, I'm also interested in your statements regarding tree mortality, because I'm a biologist who specializes in such issues. As Jay said, your pictures aren't showing up, but's normal for conifers to retain brown foliage for a while after they die. I'm interested in your claim that it's due to acidic soils - how acidic? The juniper and pine species in your area generally do well in acidic soils. Also, I'd note that it runs contrary to the WITWATS claim that the "spray" increases soil pH.

There are some issues (such as heterobasidion/annosum root disease) that are known to affect both pines and junipers on the same sites.

I will attach one at a time, it is very apparent in the pictures, one is a juniper, the other I believe is the Eastern White Pine, they have the long needles. My concern is fire potential now. They are dying fast by the thousands. This looks more like a fall picture, but they are dead and dying pines with a lake over the crest of the hill. 2013-06-21 13.29.44.jpg
 

Woody

Member
Here is how the pines are infected, within weeks they will all be dead and it literally bleeds the green right out. The branches are brittle, dead, and dry, but they die so quick they keep their needles. View attachment 3286
 

Woody

Member
Evidence is, there dead, visual observation and I am leaving it up to the experts to explore the cause and species involved.
Until the 2012 statistics come out, the graph is irrelative although Fort Ripley was showing the beginnings of a rise, as this graph does also in 2011, I am only interested after this period when they began, not prior.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
Needle colour change does not mean the trees are dead, nor do needles drop rapidly off dead trees - eg see http://byf.unl.edu/web/byf/EverNeedleDrop :

 

Belfrey

Senior Member.
Here is how the pines are infected, within weeks they will all be dead and it literally bleeds the green right out. The branches are brittle, dead, and dry, but they die so quick they keep their needles. View attachment 3286

That's a quite normal pattern for a dying conifer. Frequently, they will become stressed (due to disease, injury, drought, or whatever) up to a certain point, and then become infested by insects (particularly bark beetles) which are attracted to the odors emitted by a tree that is in decline. Many of those insects carry fungi that colonize the sapwood, causing the tree to wilt very rapidly.
 

Woody

Member
I'll get the answers tomorrow, I am going out to visit a Christmas Tree Farm as they are being hit hard, I am sure they have some answers by now.
 

Woody

Member
Needle colour change does not mean the trees are dead, nor do needles drop rapidly off dead trees - eg see http://byf.unl.edu/web/byf/EverNeedleDrop :

Mike, when you go up to one of these trees and the needles and branches snap and they are dry, they are dead. I can tell the difference, i have seen them living and dying for years here, they are dead.
 

Woody

Member
That's a quite normal pattern for a dying conifer. Frequently, they will become stressed (due to disease, injury, drought, or whatever) up to a certain point, and then become infested by insects (particularly bark beetles) which are attracted to the odors emitted by a tree that is in decline. Many of those insects carry fungi that colonize the sapwood, causing the tree to wilt very rapidly.
Could be, but the size and speed of infestation makes this questionable. Usually when Dutch Elm, Oak wilt hits it gradually moves across the state, this is rapid and wide spread, but I am sure the Christmas Tree farmers will have some answers.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
Mike, when you go up to one of these trees and the needles and branches snap and they are dry, they are dead. I can tell the difference, i have seen them living and dying for years here, they are dead.

Fair enough - but the fact that the needles are still on them is still not an indication of anything.
 

Woody

Member
Fair enough - but the fact that the needles are still on them is still not an indication of anything.
Dead pine trees litter the state, they die over time and gradually loose all their needles, I can take a picture of a naturally dead or dying pine tree for you if you would like to see what a typical and normal pine looks like when they die. When they die with their needles are intact, they will fall off in time but indicates a rapid death.
 

Woody

Member
I find a lot of links to disease issues in Christmas trees, but ALL them seem to refer to know pathogens, not your aluminum or barium theory.

http://news.cals.wisc.edu/environment/2010/04/22/circles-of-death-spread-through-wisconsin-pines/
I am not claiming anything as you claim I am so please avoid putting words where they do not apply, I am leaning towards this direction due to many factors, but invasive species is possible still....like our asian beetle that is now here. This is not having anything to do with Christmas trees, just one species that is used during Christmas, until the species are identified no one can determine the cause, the other is a juniper, a non-Christmas Tree. My step daughter is a Wildlife Biologist and specializes in Minnesota natural species, including invasive species, I am waiting the hear back from her as she was giving a seminar at the wolf exhibit this last week in Ely.
 

Belfrey

Senior Member.
I find a lot of links to disease issues in Christmas trees, but ALL them seem to refer to know pathogens, not your aluminum or barium theory.

http://news.cals.wisc.edu/environment/2010/04/22/circles-of-death-spread-through-wisconsin-pines/

Right, that article refers to the heterobasidion root disease I mentioned (formerly annosum root disease, before that annosus - the taxonomists keep changing the name of the fungus). It's mostly regarded as a pine issue, but junipers are very susceptible. When I see a pine stand with patchy mortality about 2-5 years after a thinning, and junipers on the site are croaking too, I start digging up root samples.
 

Woody

Member
Right, that article refers to the heterobasidion root disease I mentioned (formerly annosum root disease, before that annosus - the taxonomists keep changing the name of the fungus). It's mostly regarded as a pine issue, but junipers are very susceptible. When I see a pine stand with patchy mortality about 2-5 years after a thinning, and junipers on the site are croaking too, I start digging up root samples.

I agree, its time to dig but will leave that up to the DNR, they would probably give me a ticket if I tried.
 

Belfrey

Senior Member.
Dead pine trees litter the state, they die over time and gradually loose all their needles, I can take a picture of a naturally dead or dying pine tree for you if you would like to see what a typical and normal pine looks like when they die. When they die with their needles are intact, they will fall off in time but indicates a rapid death.

It's entirely common and typical for pines to die rapidly without gradually losing their needles first. The pine bark beetles I was talking about are native species that are common and ubiquitous - they seek out and infest stressed and declining trees, and finish them off.
 

Woody

Member
Why does it say "Attachment ####" every time I upload a pic and not show up, they are in jpg. Pictures are worth a thousand words.
 

Woody

Member
It's entirely common and typical for pines to die rapidly without gradually losing their needles first. The pine bark beetles I was talking about are native species that are common and ubiquitous - they seek out and infest stressed and declining trees, and finish them off.
These are all young and healthy trees dying, they were very full and green at one time. I will get some pics from this tree farm today where they are cared for and watered, and all dying within that species. The size of the area I have traveled and noticed so far encompasses an estimated 7,200 square miles in one year...and this is ONLY the areas I have traveled. If it is a beetle, it will also fly to spread this fast.
 

Belfrey

Senior Member.
These are all young and healthy trees dying, they were very full and green at one time. I will get some pics from this tree farm today where they are cared for and watered, and all dying within that species. The size of the area I have traveled and noticed so far encompasses an estimated 7,200 square miles in one year...and this is ONLY the areas I have traveled. If it is a beetle, it will also fly to spread this fast.

Again, the beetles I'm talking about don't have to spread - they're native and pretty much everywhere already. You can't always tell whether a pine is stressed from looking at it.
 

Woody

Member
It's entirely common and typical for pines to die rapidly without gradually losing their needles first. The pine bark beetles I was talking about are native species that are common and ubiquitous - they seek out and infest stressed and declining trees, and finish them off.
There is also another possibility, as this drought continues there is a battle for survival going on. We have possums and coyotes, and insects will be new here as well. We haven't had a good winter kill since 1996 to kill off any invasive species, something we used to get at least a few times every decade. In this struggle to survive, down to critter and bacteria form, they may cross over to another food source for survival if the competition grows to great, many possibilities. By using flightware we have confirmed now that 100% of these identifiable trails left by planes are coming from unidentified aircraft out of 23 identified so far. Flightware picks up about 70% of the flights meaning out of 23, at least 16 should be identified...none are. My partner is down in Houston right now and he stated that he may have seen one plane spraying the other day but was unsure, therefor we disregard them as contrails. But then he said, "Its nothing like what we are seeing up there!" Currently I have also seen an unidentifiable aircraft laying a trail from the US side of International Falls across the Canadian border. To add credence I have reported that none of these trails are identified over Jordan, but they have been seen over Israel and Iraq. Current wikileaks documents support this, although the term "Seeding" is rather ambiguous and can lead one to speculation. I believe the key word is "Climate Change" in this document. So one year after noticing this, then finding high concentrations of Magnesium in the rain water that would alter the soils. A change in calcium or magnesium can create an acidic soil that can impact certain species. Either way I agree with you, have to dig some up to find out and get to the truth.
 

Woody

Member
Again, the beetles I'm talking about don't have to spread - they're native and pretty much everywhere already. You can't always tell whether a pine is stressed from looking at it.
But, all the young ones are dead, there is NONE left! The species will be extinct from this area soon at this speed, you should come up here, then you would realize the urgency. Its time to stop speculating.
 

Belfrey

Senior Member.
But, all the young ones are dead, there is NONE left! The species will be extinct from this area soon at this speed, you should come up here, then you would realize the urgency. Its time to stop speculating.

Does your daughter-in-law share the opinion that pines are going extinct? No offense intended, but just like most people think they are an expert in what the sky looks like, many people think that they are experts in what is normal for trees, because they see them all the time. I'm working on a situation where there actually are tree species going extinct - and few people other than specialists notice. I've seen other times where someone suddenly notices a fairly common and mundane tree issue, starts seeing it everywhere, and thinks that the world is ending.
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
Again, the beetles I'm talking about don't have to spread - they're native and pretty much everywhere already. You can't always tell whether a pine is stressed from looking at it.

Are these the beetles you are refering to? According to the article there has been some drought stress as well.
 

Belfrey

Senior Member.
Are these the beetles you are refering to? According to the article there has been some drought stress as well.

Did you mean to link to something? Here's what I'm talking about: Minnesota DNR: Pine Bark Beetles (I see that it says there has been a lot of drought-related activity.)

I believe that MN does have one well-established exotic pine bark beetle species, Tomicus piniperda, which also bores into the shoots of healthy trees (and thus is called "pine shoot beetle"). But the state also has a few species of native bark beetles which are common and economically important.
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
Did you mean to link to something? Here's what I'm talking about: Minnesota DNR: Pine Bark Beetles (I see that it says there has been a lot of drought-related activity.)

I believe that MN does have one well-established exotic pine bark beetle species, Tomicus piniperda, which also bores into the shoots of healthy trees (and thus is called "pine shoot beetle"). But the state also has a few species of native bark beetles which are common and economically important.

Yeah. That's the link. Sorry, for some reason I forgot to paste it in. Must be all this aluminium affecting my memory.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
Evidence is, there dead, visual observation and I am leaving it up to the experts to explore the cause and species involved.

Woody, you are not being responsive, as usual. You claimed DNR was looking into it. I asked WHO at DNR.

What ou describe sound like white pine blister rust. It affects young trees most because it first attacks needle bearing wood.

Most likely what you are seeing is not something wrong with soil, as that would manifest in most all plants, not just a couple of species.
Try to stay calm. Remember that your water sample was found to have been taken under unacceptable conditions likely to have been contaminated,
and you have refused to re-test. Reproducibility is the hallmark of a scientific inquiry, and if you aren't willing to show repeatability, you aren't doing science.
 
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