Roy Moore yearbook signature faked?

Rory

Senior Member.
that's off topic too. The topic is not whether Moore or Nelson are liars. The topic of this thread is whether the yearbook entry is fake.
Apologies. That was following on from Spectrar Ghost's post, but I forgot to quote it. Fixed now.
 

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
Moore added that he believed the "initials as well as the date under the signature block and the printed name of the restaurant are written in a style inconsistent with the rest of the yearbook inscription."
Well of course it does. Nobody is seriously suggesting that Moore wrote that part, are they? It's different handwriting, as anyone can see. That doesn't invalidate the inscription and the signature.
 

JDW

New Member
I first must point out I'm not trying to prove a "conspiracy theory" as the name of this forum implies. That implies complexity and cooperation of two or more people. My argument is the "Moore" part of the signature is a forgery, and the only thing required to pull that off is a pen with a similair ink color and a media savvy lawyer who won't be very critical of your story. That's fraud not a conspiracy.

You would expect subtle difference over time, many experts in the MSM have stated this. However the absence of subtle differences is suspicious. There are three things that the yearbook signature and the divorce signature have in common that the other six don't (I'm only referring to the "Moore" half of each): 1) the second 'o' is larger than the first AND both o's are slanted right 2) there is a pronounced 'o'-sized gap between the 'r' and 'e' 3) only these have "D.A." after them. These are also the only two we know for sure Beverly had in her possession. I think it's too big of a coincidence, that the second half of the yearbook was forged using the signature from the divorce dismissal as a template.

[off topic and no-click material removed]
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Mr. Rasmusen

New Member
A few bits of input:

(1) Beverly Young (Nelson) did have a high school classmate named Ray Jon. https://www.classfinders.com/people/al/gadsden/ray/jon/

(2) I wish handwriting experts would at least say either (1) The inscription is an obvious forgery, or (2) The inscription is not obviously a forgery, based on the handwriting. They could say that based on a single photo. I would say (2) myself, even though I do think it probably *is* a forgery.

(3) The question is not really whether the "Roy Moore" signature looks like Roy Moore's known signatures. We would expect the "Moore" to look like Roy Moore's known signatures (at least, like the divorce one) if it is a forgery. Rather the question is whether the "Roy" looks less like his real signature than the "Moore" does, since if it is a forger the "Roy" was written by somebody else without intent to deceive and the "Moore" was was written by someone else *with* intent to look like a genuine signature. Similarly, the earlier, long, part of the inscription should not look like Moore's handwriting if the forgery theory is correct. We must, however, keep in mind that all these people are from Gadsden, Alabama, and possibly even had the same second-grade teacher teach them cursive.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
I think it's too big of a coincidence, that the second half of the yearbook was forged using the signature from the divorce dismissal as a template
I agree that that example of "Moore" (the yearbook) is suspiciously similar to the divorce sample. But the rest of the inscription matches his other signatures fairly well, esp the word more. and the "Ray" matches well.

And finally the ink color. In the "chromatic aberration' thread the color transition isn't consistent with the recreation
Mick used one pen. One 'black'. There are many 'blacks', each having different tints (any man liking 'black' cars would be aware of this). I still think the ink looks more like a very dark blue to me. But its hard to really tell true color on a computer. The point of the other thread is to show the phenomenon does happen, Occam's razor.. plus how silly would she need to be to write Moore in a different colored ink?
 

Mr. Rasmusen

New Member
It certainly would be idiotic to go public with a forgery in two colors of ink. But remember how idiotic the Dan Rather 60 Minutes forgery was, with its modern computer fonts on a 1973 document. It's certainly odd. But there is no getting away from the oddity. Suppose it's not a forgery. We still have to wonder why CNN posts two photos side by side that make it look as if one is an obvious fake, and post them without comment to their readers. That makes CNN look as stupid as an obvious forgery does a forger.. Any suggestions?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
It certainly would be idiotic to go public with a forgery in two colors of ink. But remember how idiotic the Dan Rather 60 Minutes forgery was, with its modern computer fonts on a 1973 document. It's certainly odd. But there is no getting away from the oddity. Suppose it's not a forgery. We still have to wonder why CNN posts two photos side by side that make it look as if one is an obvious fake, and post them without comment to their readers. That makes CNN look as stupid as an obvious forgery does a forger.. Any suggestions?
I suspect who ever posted the image simply did not notice.
 

paperview

New Member
Hey all! I'm new here. I have been following this very closely, and I just wish to say thank you to the OP, to Rory and to MikeWest for the all the superb work.
 

paperview

New Member
I posted this last week on another forum I visit, so sharing:

I'm trained in handwriting analysis. I do much work with historical documents, letters and signatures of important historical figures, have spent decades studying and comparing signatures, and any text accompanying it. My profession (which includes work with museums, historical societies and even the Smithsonian Institute) depends on getting it right.

It's always best - and necessary - for solid authentication to hold the original for analysis, and also to get contemporary examples of handwriting, and there are sure to be plenty out there for Moore. I'm on pretty good ground in saying from the image, and comparables -- the prima facie evidence suggests it's Moore's inscription and signature.

It's nearly impossible to get a smooth flow and cadence like that in the cursive, and signature without obvious telltales if someone were forging. And it's not like it's on a clean sheet that can be tossed when those telltales show -- this is a book inscription. Once only chance. Very little chance it's a forgery, IMO.

It's also [hard] to imagine someone would forge something that most assuredly would be highly scrutinized and could be so easily proven if it was forged.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Rory

Senior Member.
I thought I'd have a little go at collating some of the handwriting and signature samples, as it gets a little difficult sometimes flicking back and forth between them, and even more so when trying to refer them to others.

For starters, then, here are all nine verified copies of Roy Moore's signature that I've seen:

all sigs.png

I'm going to break them down and compare them with the signature from the yearbook, but first I thought it might be interesting to look at this document, which has, along with a signature, Roy Moore printing his name twice:

Term Limits Amendment Pledge.png

The reason I find this interesting is that defenders of Moore who believe that the yearbook signature is fake like to point to the slight differences between it and the verified signatures. And yet, here within the same document, presumably written at the same time, there are just as many differences in the two printed versions of his name as in any of the signatures - particularly: one has no middle initial, the "e" is totally different; one "R" has a much bigger loop; one "M" has the first stroke 'doubled'; and so forth.

For those who suspect forgery, differences like these may appear convincing enough to believe these two examples were written by different people. For others, the similarities and Occam's Razor are perhaps more telling.

Here are the nine verified signatures of Roy Moore's first name (and middle initial), with the signature from the yearbook in the centre:

all roys.png

While this isn't a handwriting analysis, there are perhaps a few things I can point out:
  • The yearbook signature is the only one that doesn't contain the middle initial
  • The yearbook signature looks a little like "Ray", as does #9
  • It looks to me like there are similarities and differences across all the signatures, to the extent that no particular variation stands out as being either 'suspect' or 'correct', save the lack of middle initial in the yearbook signature (which, if anything, would throw doubt on the forgery claim)
Likewise with the surname:

all moores.png

  • Some have an extra flourish on the "M" (2,4,5,7,8) and some don't
  • It was claimed above that the yearbook signature and the divorce signature (#5) are the only ones where "the second "o" is larger than the first AND both o's are slanted right". This doesn't appear to be the case. Firstly, the second "o" is actually smaller in both those examples, and not noticeably slanted to the right. Across all ten signatures there is a great variety in the "o's" - but none that stands out in any as being particularly odd.
  • It was also stated that the gap betwen the "r" and the "e" is larger than in others. That does appear to be the case. It may, however, be possible to find many instances where any two signatures have only one or two things in common. The first yearbook "o", for example, doesn't join up, as in #3 and #6, while the 'divorce' "o" does. Only #3 and the yearbook "M" have a 'loop' in the centre, while the second arch of the "M" is only 'pointed' in 3, 4, 9, and the yearbook. And so forth.
  • The similarities across all signatures appear to be far more convincing than the differences.
The other interesting thing about the furore around the Nelson yearbook is how much focus has been put on the signature, the ink color, and the writing that follows "Moore" (which seems very clearly to be in a different hand; I would be surprised if anyone was claiming it wasn't) while little appears to be being said about the inscription itself.

I posted earlier in the thread a few examples of Moore's handwriting - one taken from a book signing in 2009, and the other from a copy of the US constitution Moore signed for Alabama judge Bob Vance in 2002, and I thought it would be interesting to compare letters and words. I've tried not to be biased in this, and rather than select obvious matches, simply select all instances of a letter or word, and let the results speak for themselves.

The comparions are mostly between the yearbook and the constitution, though the first one has samples from the signed biography, as well as a date taken from signature #6:

79TerryM.png


The "b", the "f", and the "l" are not so great in the next one, as they are in different places in the word in each sample - but some may see them as illuminating, nonetheless:

chbfl.png

The word "more" in the yearbook is interesting, given its similarity to "Moore":

orewsty.png

This is every instance of a lower case letter beginning a word across all three samples:

firstletters.png


The last thing I could find to look at was the dot in the letter "i", which was often some distance to the right:

i.png

That's all.
 
Last edited:

Mr. Rasmusen

New Member
Well of course it does. Nobody is seriously suggesting that Moore wrote that part, are they? It's different handwriting, as anyone can see. That doesn't invalidate the inscription and the signature.
Yes, Mrs. Nelson in her press conference said that Moore wrote out the inscription and signed it ""Roy Moore, DA, Olde Hickory House". She didn't mention the date part. See
http://heavy.com/news/2017/11/roy-moore-yearbook-forged-signature-inscription/, time:
second 10:58 CBSN video. She was reading from a prepared statement. Unless she didn't mean to write that in her statement, if you are right that the Olde Hickory House is someone else's handwriting, that invalidates her whole story. I don't know that it's so obvious that "Olde Hickory House" is different handwriting, though, since it's printing. It is odd, though, that Moore would switch to printing at that point.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
that invalidates her whole story.
No it doesn't. It was 40 years ago. I would never now be able to tell my high school handwriting from my friends, as we all wrote very similarly. It's very very possible she just forgot adding that. (IF she did.. in one autograph Moore did write a full date and location).
 

Rory

Senior Member.
Mrs. Nelson in her press conference said that Moore wrote out the inscription and signed it ""Roy Moore, DA, Olde Hickory House". She didn't mention the date part.
This is the video of Nelson where she describes the signing of the yearbook (set to start at 10:25):

Source: www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHPOm6yIy6k

She says:
If you are right that 'Olde Hickory House' is someone else's handwriting, that invalidates her whole story.
I wouldn't go that far. She may have forgotten writing it, or she may be mistaken. Or she may indeed be fabricating some things, and could have written it there on the way to the interview - but it still doesn't mean he didn't write the rest.

It's a strange one, though, which doesn't yet have a satisfactory explanation. Though certainly whoever wrote it has made no effort to match that part to the rest of the inscription.

All I'm really interested in is learning whether Moore wrote the main body of the inscription. Chasing the last little part is something of a red herring, as far as I'm concerned. And while proving that he did write the inscription - if he wrote it - certainly doesn't prove Nelson's story, or mean that everything she says is accurate and true, it would raise the question as to why Moore, when presented with what looks exactly like a copy of his handwriting and signature - though which in itself does nothing to incriminate him - so vehemently denied having written it, and stated so assuredly that it was a forgery:
I don't know that it's so obvious that "Olde Hickory House" is different handwriting, though, since it's printing. It is odd, though, that Moore would switch to printing at that point.
Well, there are the "7s", which are totally different - and different to the verified examples - and the "e's" are very distinctive, and completely different. There's not really anything about that part that matches Moore's handwriting. And, in the post above, we have two examples of Moore printing his name: the corresponding letters printed there don't match either.

Weirdly, an alleged ex of Beverly Nelson has allegedly come forward and allegedly produced an inscription he allegedly says she wrote in his yearbook.

It was first published in Breitbart a couple of days ago. Unfortunately there aren't any printed letters to compare with the 'Olde Hickory' part of the inscription - nor number 7s.
 
Last edited:

deirdre

Senior Member.
Weirdly, an alleged ex of Beverly Nelson has allegedly come forward and allegedly produced an inscription he allegedly says she wrote in his yearbook.
that's weird she put Beverly in quotations.. just like the merry Christmas in the Moore inscription. must have been a 'cultural' thing back then. (like the printed e's being c's with diagonal lines.. all the girls I knew wrote their e's that way in high school* but I haven't seen e's like that in decades). *no, I'm not as old as this lady!!

and interesting that yearbook photo has lines of an inscription crossed out. I always wondered why if she was so traumatized (as to still cry tears 40 years later) she wouldn't scratch his name out or rip that page out of her yearbook.
But women can be weird creatures.. so it could mean nothing.
 

Mr. Rasmusen

New Member
Moore's lawyer has sent an official letter to Nelson which requires her to preserve the yearbook as evidence for a possible court case. He also demands to view the yearbook within 48 hours, but that's pure bluster; she doesn't have to comply. If Moore does sue, though, he will have the right to analyze the yearbook at some point--- many months from now, I expect. http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...lease-yearbook-demands-evidence-be-preserved/

The ex-boyfriend story mention above in #55 is athttp://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/11/20/exclusive-ex-boyfriend-of-roy-moore-accuser-i-dont-believe-her/ . Her stepson also says he doesn't believe her, but neither man's disbelief sounds very important.
 

Rory

Senior Member.
One more Roy Moore handwriting sample and signature:

moore3.jpg
Source: www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10214348593690297

Doesn't really add anything, apart from the lower case "t". As shown above, the lower case "t" was the only letter that was somewhat different in the constitution/biography to the yearbook - though there was only one example. This one, however, is much more similar.
 

Mr. Rasmusen

New Member
I posted this last week on another forum I visit, so sharing:

I'm trained in handwriting analysis. I do much work with historical documents, ....
Thank you for your comments. I find it frustrating that when the press asked handwriting experts, the experts refused to comment, when I know they could make tentative comments like this that would be useful even if they're not up to courtroom levels of care and certainty.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Thank you for your comments. I find it frustrating that when the press asked handwriting experts, the experts refused to comment, when I know they could make tentative comments like this that would be useful even if they're not up to courtroom levels of care and certainty.
Actual Professionals don't speculate in criminal cases. They didn't refuse to comment. Perhaps the 'court of public opinion' should listen to the experts on this matter.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I wouldn't go that far. She may have forgotten writing it, or she may be mistaken. Or she may indeed be fabricating some things, and could have written it there on the way to the interview - but it still doesn't mean he didn't write the rest.

It's a strange one, though, which doesn't yet have a satisfactory explanation. Though certainly whoever wrote it has made no effort to match that part to the rest of the inscription.
Turns out she wrote that part as "notes", but says Moore signed it:

Source: http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/roy-moore-accuser-speaks-election-day-51666091

Breitbart, etc., are framing this as an admission that she forged the whole thing. It's certainly not helpful to her story that it was not made clear from the start, but the claim of the signature (and presumably the "sweetest, more beautiful girl" text) remains.
 

paperview

New Member
http://www.kcci.com/article/roy-moore-accuser-yearbook-entry-notes-handwriting/14390831

I doubt this will be accepted by the Moore crowd.
 

Joe

Senior Member
http://www.kcci.com/article/roy-moore-accuser-yearbook-entry-notes-handwriting/14390831

I doubt this will be accepted by the Moore crowd.
Her first mistake was Gloria Allred .So according to Allred its genuine ? She could be telling the truth but she ruined it by not being 100 percent honest . Tuesday is the election . Im hoping Roy Moore wins . Alabama will decide .
 

NoParty

Senior Member.
Gloria Allred has admitted to being a female...and, well, I think we know what that implies about her credibility.

I never understood the logic behind the Moore fans contesting the lower part of the inscription,
but not challenging the signature itself...which 100% destroys his "I never met her" defense.

It's certainly not helpful to her story that it was not made clear from the start.
I followed this story, but not closely, since his camp already conceded the crucial signature. :rolleyes: But since now some on the right
are trying to paint her as a liar or forger for the "Olde Hickory House" part...did she ever claim that RM wrote that part too?

Politifact notes multiple dishonest headlines in conservative media...Fox went that way, but later walked it back...
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-moore-accuser-didnt-tamper-or-forge-yearboo/
 
Last edited:

deirdre

Senior Member.
She could be telling the truth but she ruined it by not being 100 percent honest .
i disagree. it was 40 years ago. memories get wonky. I knew immediately she wrote the note part, but that doesn't negate Moore signed the yearbook. (it also doesn't prove anything.. it doesn't even prove he "knew" her per se).

Her first mistake was Gloria Allred
big time. and how bizarre Allred showed that drawing of nelson when she was young.. what? a man can't make a move on you unless you're pretty enough? is that what Gloria was trying to say? that was messed up.
 

Joe

Senior Member
i disagree. it was 40 years ago. memories get wonky. I knew immediately she wrote the note part, but that doesn't negate Moore signed the yearbook. (it also doesn't prove anything.. it doesn't even prove he "knew" her per se).


big time. and how bizarre Allred showed that drawing of nelson when she was young.. what? a man can't make a move on you unless you're pretty enough? is that what Gloria was trying to say? that was messed up.
Gloria Allred and her daughter Lisa Bloom are awful . Would be the last person Id use if I were a woman .
 

Joe

Senior Member
Gloria Allred has admitted to being a female...and, well, I think we know what that implies about her credibility.

I never understood the logic behind the Moore fans contesting the lower part of the inscription,
but not challenging the signature itself...which 100% destroys his "I never met her" defense.


I followed this story, but not closely, since his camp already conceded the crucial signature. :rolleyes: But since now some on the right
are trying to paint her as a liar or forger for the "Olde Hickory House" part...did she ever claim that RM wrote that part too?
Was that supposed to be Funny ? Apparently you have no clue who Gloria Allred is ? Its has nothing to do with her being Female .
 

qed

Senior Member
Apparently you have no clue who Gloria Allred is ? Its has nothing to do with her being Female .
We have no clue what your problem with Gloria Allred is because you have not told us nor referenced any evidence.
Her first mistake was Gloria Allred .So according to Allred its genuine ? She could be telling the truth but she ruined it by not being 100 percent honest . Tuesday is the election . Im hoping Roy Moore wins . Alabama will decide .
Gloria Allred and her daughter Lisa Bloom are awful . Would be the last person Id use if I were a woman .
 

paperview

New Member
I have been look for something regarding the expert who analyzed the handwriting...

https://slate.com/news-and-politics...t-says-expert-confirms-rest-isnt-forgery.html

It was stated Allred (gosh I dislike that woman) handed out copies of his report to the journalists at the press conference.

I have been looking all over, and can find no story / release of the actual report Mr. Anthony provided.

I have also been challenged elsewhere to show where it states he had the original yearbook to compare. Logic tells me he did, as any expert knows you need the original for solid verification to pass muster, but here too, I can find no statement saying he did.

Frustrating. If anyone has seen either, it would be much appreciated.
 

paperview

New Member
this document, starting on page 3, explains his experience and training. basically FBI and state crime lab trained. sounds like he would know to look a the actual yearbook. and since Allred hired him and she has the yearbook.. no reason to think he didn't
http://www.swafde.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/trans.pdf
Thank you.

Yes, I already reviewed his credentials when it was first learned.

As I said, it makes solid sense he would necessarily have the original. I'm just having trouble finding verification -- a quote from him, more details -- and perhaps that multi-page report from him that was supposedly handed out at the last press conference.

Alas, it's no where to be found -- in my searchings at least.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Did she say that?
what other plausible explanation could there be for no one printing it?

heres a link to the press conference. the 'report' she hands to reporters is only 3 pages long (plus exhibits).
report.JPG

and so far ive read every article I can find and have only seen 1 line on 1 article that [allegedly]quotes this report directly.



Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bqMmlP1EKU


[edit add: hyperlink to alleged quotation in Newsweek]
 
Last edited:

paperview

New Member
what other plausible explanation could there be for no one printing it?

heres a link to the press conference. the 'report' she hands to reporters is only 3 pages long (plus exhibits).
View attachment 30554

and so far ive read every article I can find and have only seen 1 line on 1 article that [allegedly]quotes this report directly.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bqMmlP1EKU
Wow. Thank you so much for your work in that.

It is very, very curious she hands it to reporters - says they're being transparent -- yet just that one line [allegedly]quoting from the report.

No other mention anywhere. Just weird.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
and.. just another tidbit I found*
*This of course does not mean Anthony was wrong.
and I personally believe it likely Moore signed the yearbook.
 
Last edited:

NoParty

Senior Member.
I have been look for something regarding the expert who analyzed the handwriting...

It was stated Allred (gosh I dislike that woman) handed out copies of his report to the journalists at the press conference.
I'm kind of lost as to the point of all these posts (unless it's just a mysterious grudge re. Allred).

A yearbook inscription was produced, that plainly contradicted Moore's claim to have never met this particular accuser.

The Moore defense has focused on added details, not the signature itself (which matches many others of the time).

So what exactly is the significance of how many lines of a 3 page document
(that merely reinforces that it's Moore's signature) are widely reprinted?
 
Top