Ross Coulthart Shows Patch Claimed of "Reverse Engineering Program at Area 51"

[jackfrostvc]

I'm going to add my theory here. As a eBay seller perhaps I can explain why the listing title contained "Michael Jordan Autograph".
When you search "Area 51 patch" you'll get a lot of hits. None are the patch in question.
A seller listed the item FOR someone specific to purchase.
Seller shared the search term "Groom lake patch with Michael Jordan Autograph" to the interested buyer as a way to direct the buyer to the specific listing.

The reason you would add "Michael Jordan" to the listing rather than simply sharing the link-to the listing with the buyer is because you don't want the item to sell to someone else, before your buyer has a chance to purchase it.
I've done this before for a buyer.

The reason a Buyer would want the sale to go through eBay rather than privately (cash app, pay pal) is because eBay offers buyer protection.
Essentially eBay will cover the $ if a buyer gets hosed.

Its possible someone found that old-no longer listed-photo of the patch at that link I posted above.
Reached out to the seller with interest to purchase.
Seller made a new eBay listing for it.
Buyer purchased it for $550

Could this be because the original listing was for a michael jordan autograph, and they edited it later to show the patch instead and also updated the desc ?

Wouldn't that make more sense for a $500 purchase, ie that it was actually a Michael Jordan signature?
$500 for a patch you have no provenance over in a market which I would guess has a lot of novelty patches in it, would seem a stretch to believe someone bought it

 

[Eddie.Pieboldt]

Could this be because the original listing was for a michael jordan autograph, and they edited it later to show the patch instead and also updated the desc ?

Wouldn't that make more sense for a $500 purchase, ie that it was actually a Michael Jordan signature?
$500 for a patch you have no provenance over in a market which I would guess has a lot of novelty patches in it, would seem a stretch to believe someone bought it

I suppose it could be.
These 3 images we have-same patch-different backgrounds.
Leads me to believe the seller marketed it a few different times.
On the one page he mentions $9000000 or something sarcastically.
Assuming he was asking a lot of money for it is a safe bet.
It was likely on the market a while prior to the 2 years were able to look back using Terapeak.

There IS a market in one-off patches.
Often "secret" military type themed.
Its been a while since I have researched this area, but I remember seeing single-one-off patches go for hundreds of dollars.
Many patch manufactures are willing to make them in small batches down to a single patch.
AliExpress is a great place to have patches made. Especially singles.

A Michael Jordan Autograph would have to be certified through Beckett or PSA to get any money for.
Certification is something you would certainly mention in the listing title which we dont see here.

 

[deirdre]

The reason you would add "Michael Jordan" to the listing rather than simply sharing the link-to the listing with the buyer is because you don't want the item to sell to someone else, before your buyer has a chance to purchase it.

that makes no sense, adding michael jordan to it just draws a thousand more eyes. if you didnt want other buyers to look at it you'd put something like "cow print banana peel" and list it under crafting embroidery items.

either way you'd still send a link to the buyer.

 

[Eddie.Pieboldt]

that makes no sense, adding michael jordan to it just draws a thousand more eyes. if you didnt want other buyers to look at it you'd put something like "cow print banana peel" and list it under crafting embroidery items.

either way you'd still send a link to the buyer.

It makes sense to me. The only photo we see in the listing is of the patch. Not an autograph. I see no mention of PSA or Certification in the title.
Autograph collectors wouldn't drop $500 on such a listing. Sharing a link with the buyer is fine, it still does not offer protection from a random buyer making the purchase before your buyer has an opportunity to see the link and make the purchase.
Although my theory is not airtight-I see no other reason to put Michael Jordan in the title of a listing for the patch.

 

[Eddie.Pieboldt]

I suppose the "Michael Jordan Autograph" could have been added(edited in) to an existing listing for the patch by request of a potential buyer as well. Possibly in a failed attempt to hide the sold listing from people like us in the future.

 

[deirdre]

Autograph collectors wouldn't drop $500 on such a listing

no but that is just the type of audience who would [buy] a cool area 51 patch. and who has 500$ lying around.

 

[Mendel]

I found one here as well.
Website is sketch and old.
http://soviet-awards.com/vintage/Ar...-Military-Super-Rare-Patch-_185790380709.html

Area 51 Groom Lake EG&G Engineering UFO Military Super Rare Patch :
$900000.00​

Do you want to own the ultimate Area 51 item? Then look no further!
This patch was given to the members of a small EG&G engineering group inside Area 51 in the year 2000. I was part of that group. 100% original and authentic. I have never seen this patch offered anywhere else before. Excellent condition. Been stored inside a plastic sleeve.
MAKE YOUR BEST OFFER! Keep in mind that I will not let this go for nothing. This isn't some reproduction. It was specifically designed and handed out to engineers INSIDE Area 51. ObviouslyI'm not really asking $900,000. I justwanted it to be seen more. Don't hesitate if you have questions.

Content from External Source

Suddenly we have a new narrative...

 

[eleggua]

I suppose the "Michael Jordan Autograph" could have been added(edited in) to an existing listing for the patch by request of a potential buyer as well. Possibly in a failed attempt to hide the sold listing from people like us in the future.

No, that doesn't make sense. Searching ended listings for either term will turn up the patch/autograph listing for at least 90 days after the listing ended.
As deidre said, "Michael Jordan Autograph" draws more views, not less. Anyone that has a saved search for "Area 51 Patch" set up for email alerts of new listings will get an email for it, regardless of the Jordan bit in the listing title. Same with saved searches for Jordan autograph; no matter the Patch bit in the listing title, Jordan searchers will get an alert.


Without another photo of the listing to view, one cannot be certain there was a Jordan autograph attached to the sale however a Jordan autograph isn't necessarily a high ticket item.
This one recently sold for 5 bucks: https://www.ebay.com/itm/314663309967

A possible explanation for the listing title's inclusion of the patch and the autograph, the seller had a double-baited hook. They figured one or the other search term would hook and land a $550 buyer.

Using eBay’s Terrapeak, I was able to look at sold listings up to two years old.
It looks like one sold in March 2023 for $550.
Unfortunately “details” of the listing are not available beyond 90 days.

The correct spelling is Terapeak. One "r", not two.

eBay offers a seller tool called terrapeak. It is only available to those who have a “eBay store subscription.(I have one).

That is not correct. One does not have to have a Store Subscription to be able to view Terapeak.
https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/selling-tools/terapeak-research?id=4853

If one is registered with a regular Seller account, one can view Terapeak.

Try the instructions below:

Sign into ebay.
Go to the top of the page, hover over 'My ebay', click 'Selling' in the dropdown menu.
On that page, locate the 'Selling Tools' box, click the 'Seller Hub Reports' link.
At the top of that page, locate 'Research', hover of it and then click 'Terapeak product research'.

From there, it's all fairly obvious. Enter "Area 51 patch" into the search field.

edit: Actually, the correct search term needed to find the patch in question should only close quote "Area 51".
"Area 51" patch

To the right of the search field, set the time parameter to 'Last 2 years', and click 'Research'.
All of the "Area 51" patch listings will be shown below a graph of the last 2 years' sales gross totals.
Reorder the listings according to highest-to-lowest sale price by clicking 'Avg sold price'.

That patch is the highest priced sale with "Area 51" patch in the listing title in the past 2 years.
Since it's been over 90 days since sale, the actual listing page is no longer available to view.
Number 2 on the list is still available to view, and it maybe of some interest.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/391908472840

It's not that hard to have a patch made:
https://www.aviatorgear.com/

Disinfo is another possibility. Patch created and sold for express purpose of adding to the noise around the hearings, etc. The UFO nonsense of the past couple of months has been awfully distracting and full of nothing of value: all noise, no signal, and getting louder by the day. IMO, of course.

 

[eleggua]

I found one here as well.
Website is sketch and old.
http://soviet-awards.com/vintage/Ar...-Military-Super-Rare-Patch-_185790380709.html

That isn't (or wasn't) being sold on that site. It was an ebay listing that the site hosted, as can be seen in the text below the image and by clicking the Buy button on that page. Clicking Buy takes one to the regular ebay page, not that listing, as that listing is no longer live and is too old to find in the Completed items search. It didn't sell, thus doesn't show in Terapeak.

More noise.

 

[Charlie Wiser]

The patch in all three photos (Coulthart's, and 2x ebay listings) are the same physical item IMO. Every stitch and loop and flaw matches. Here are a couple of comparison images.
(1) bald spot in the center of the bolt and the two "mountains"; uneven stitching in the top-right "0".
(2) line thru the "M"; loop under the "E".

 

[jarlrmai]

That appears to just be reposting the Ebay listing. It's got a good quality photo


Close examination of the stitching shows that it is the same physical object. However it is NOT the same photo. The position of the patch in the sleeve is different.

I am not so sure it was created after the presentation now, wayback may just not have archived it

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/185790380709?var=0&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5337743334&toolid=10001&customid=newlinks

The link contains ids that might mean something to ebay experts

 

[jarlrmai]

The image is hosted on the site but it came from eBay as per this JPEG comment, I assume some sort of automated processing ebay does when you upload an image, using the ImageMagick library.

 

[jarlrmai]

The pinterest pin with the ebay auction

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/918945498937357379/

":{"verified":true}},"createdAt":"Sun, 05 Dec 2021 17:33:05 +0000","domain":"ebay.com"

 

[jarlrmai]

The pinterest ebay link item id is different to the soviet awards link

https://www.ebay.com/itm/185200658435?hash=item2b1ed1c803%3Ag%3A9jUAAOSwXZVhRl79&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&siteid=0&campid=5338771237&customid&toolid=10001&mkevt=1

 

[jarlrmai]

DuckDuckGo has a result for the ebay number for the soviet awards item

Feb 24 2023 is the listed date (index date?)

 

[jackfrostvc]

I think I found the missing link that explains that March 2023 ebay listing, and why it had the michael jordan ref.
I think I may, and I emphasise may have found the person who contacted Ross. It's all tied together

Will have a review of it, before posting about it

 

[jarlrmai]

Bing also has End date Feb 24 2023 for the soviet awards link item id

 

[jarlrmai]

Okay searching soviet awards there 4 postings with 4 different photos.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=AREA+51+Groom+Lake+EG\u0026G+Ultra+Rare+Patch+site:soviet-awards.com&t=h_&ia=web

https://soviet-awards.com/vintage/A...ring-Group-Ultra-Rare-Patch_185793097822.html
https://soviet-awards.com/vintage/A...Group-Patch-Coin-Ultra-Rare_185782594127.html
http://soviet-awards.com/vintage/Ar...-Military-Super-Rare-Patch-_185790380709.html
https://soviet-awards.com/vintage/U...nly-Engineering-Group-Patch_185747391075.html

 

[jarlrmai]

also this with a broken image link
https://soviet-awards.com/vintage/a...hentic-and-super-rare-patch_184961050008.html

 

[jarlrmai]

The ebay item id for the photo that matches Coulthard's presentation is 185793097822

So that is from this listing with Feb 27 2023 as the date

 

[jarlrmai]

 

[jarlrmai]

Hallelujah its in the bing cache

https://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=1...lang=en-US&w=4w6ZoXBCvzQyeKRPL2aD3RduVCfe75pI

 

[jarlrmai]

 

[JMartJr]

It's the same one. i.e. the same patch (not just another copy of the patch)

Might not mean much. Ebay lets you use a picture of the same item that somebody already sold one of -- presumably a holdover from the days when some of us reactionaries were refusing to "go digital" with our cameras and getting a picture of your item ready for posting on eBay might be more of a big hairy deal. Or of course somebody could download an image to re-upload. So the pic of the same patch showing up repeatedly MIGHT not mean there is only the one patch involved.

 

[jarlrmai]

Might not mean much. Ebay lets you use a picture of the same item that somebody already sold one of -- presumably a holdover from the days when some of us reactionaries were refusing to "go digital" with our cameras and getting a picture of your item ready for posting on eBay might be more of a big hairy deal. Or of course somebody could download an image to re-upload. So the pic of the same patch showing up repeatedly MIGHT not mean there is only the one patch involved.

So far I've found 4 different photos of what seems to be the same patch in different photos. Now I am starting to suspect that the embroidery flaws might not be so unique, because it seems odd.

 

[Charlie Wiser]

So far I've found 4 different photos of what seems to be the same patch in different photos. Now I am starting to suspect that the embroidery flaws might not be so unique, because it seems odd.

What if only one patch was made? Maybe a sample piece. That would explain why there's only one floating around, or being passed around, or perhaps one person trying a few different ways to offload it with its fake backstory. It's hard for me to believe that several patches all have the same minute flaws down to a fraction of a millimeter.

 

[jarlrmai]

What if only one patch was made? Maybe a sample piece. That would explain why there's only one floating around, or being passed around, or perhaps one person trying a few different ways to offload it with its fake backstory. It's hard for me to believe that several patches all have the same minute flaws down to a fraction of a millimeter.

Yeah looking again the sleeve seems to be the same with some crinkles on the bottom matching, so the same patch in the same sleeves but 4 different photos for different auctions.

 

[jarlrmai]

We could contact the original seller but I am loathe to spam people.

 

[Charlie Wiser]

As an example, here are two patches on the same photo (i.e. two different physical items) likely from the same "batch" - there are differences between them, such as different eyelash shapes, different individual stitches on various areas if you zoom in. Apologies in advance if you're not into closely examining Twilight Sparkle but it's the first suitable one I found.

 

[MyMatesBrainwashed]

Patch design day is always the best day of any super secret program I've been involved in.

I'm really struggling on the slogan for an alien tech reverse engineering team.

What are they measuring?

Analysing, ok, that's definitely part of reverse engineering.

Protect? Presumably we're talking the human race here? That's kinda difficult when dealing with the unknown and is incredibly dependant on the success of analysis. Pretty big oops when your analysis determines that there is no known protection.

It wouldn't even be the reverse engineers' jobs to protect (the human race).

we developed methods for large-scale monitoring and real-time analysis of Wi-Fi network traffic to identify attacks on the network.

Now that's very measurable, analysable, and protectable!

 

[jarlrmai]

Patch design day is always the best day of any super secret program I've been involved in.

I'm really struggling on the slogan for an alien tech reverse engineering team.

What are they measuring?

Analysing, ok, that's definitely part of reverse engineering.

Protect? Presumably we're talking the human race here? That's kinda difficult when dealing with the unknown and is incredibly dependant on the success of analysis. Pretty big oops when your analysis determines that there is no known protection.

It wouldn't even be the reverse engineers' jobs to protect (the human race).


Now that's very measurable, analysable, and protectable!

There was someone on reddit saying "measure analyze protect" was common network terminology so it was not for sure from the Homeland Security project but if you google:

"measure analyze protect"

You only get a few pages of results.

Quite a few of them relate to wireless network security papers published by the members of the group detailed in:

https://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~dfk/research/project/map/index.html

 

[jackfrostvc]

1) The March 2023 ebay listing for the patch has an odd mention of a Michael Jordan signature. Just remember this.

2) Someone who claimed to be the person who sent the pic of the patch to Ross posted on twitter. This person, allegedly had only 4 followers, one was Ross. When someone asked them a question , they deleted their twitter account.
I obtained the persons twitter username though from the person who tried to ask them a question.

3) When I googled the username sans the last letter. The first result of not that many, came back with a youtube channel. It had one video , in the video was this person who was showing off his collectables, namely american football cards. They made mention of having signed stuff. In the background was a Joe Rogan T-shirt and also what seemed to be signed Rogan memorabilia.

4) The tiktoc account with a similar username to the above which I also found on google, had videos of the same kind of collectables, including basketball cards.

I don't really want to put the persons username here, in case it's not them - I'm not 100%. Make of all that what you will

 

[Charlie Wiser]

Patch design day is always the best day of any super secret program I've been involved in.

I'm really struggling on the slogan for an alien tech reverse engineering team.

What are they measuring?

Analysing, ok, that's definitely part of reverse engineering.

Protect? Presumably we're talking the human race here? That's kinda difficult when dealing with the unknown and is incredibly dependant on the success of analysis. Pretty big oops when your analysis determines that there is no known protection.

It wouldn't even be the reverse engineers' jobs to protect (the human race).


Now that's very measurable, analysable, and protectable!

lol I just tweeted all this. Skeptics are so predictable. Measure & protect makes no sense.

 

[cptreynolds]

lol I just tweeted all this. Skeptics are so predictable. Measure & protect makes no sense.

Surely if you don't measure the egg you can't analyze it. And protect means crystal clear that nobody must know about it!

There, figured it out

 

[deirdre]

So far I've found 4 different photos of what seems to be the same patch in different photos. Now I am starting to suspect that the embroidery flaws might not be so unique, because it seems odd.

theres a thread pull on the last T. that would be unique. i'm 99% sure all 4 are the same patch. (it is billed as really rare)

 

[Mendel]

Measure & protect makes no sense.

But did they measure the egg?
Size: about the size of an SUV
Weight: Two men could lift it

I mean, there's a trope going around about USAnians using anything to measure except established scales, but this is ridiculous!

 

[deirdre]

We could contact the original seller but I am loathe to spam people.

coultharts story has too many holes anyway. it doesnt sound like the great uncle was an engineer anyway..just that he got the story from a different engineer when he first started working there.

although i could imagine if i built a hawkeyenighthawk 117 i might hire a separate crew to see how easy it would be for the russians to reverse engineer my tech if the plane went down in russian territory. i guess an office worker could have gotten a patch too if he went to the same dinner. ??

following quote not related, but an indication of how coins and maybe patches were given out. (like goody bags)

Article:

This was given to attendees at the unit's 2015 dining out. A dining out is a formal Air Force banquet for unit members and guests.

Source: https://www.dreamlandresort.com/forum/messages/54321.html

 

[NorCal Dave]

Am I understanding this correctly? The seller on eBay was "lockheedskunk117"? Interesting name, he works in the Lockheed Skunkworks from Burbank CA, which built the U2, the A12 and later the F117. They were tested at Area 51. The site was obtained and constructed for the U2.

He claims the patch is in Palmdale which is near Edwards AFB in the Mojave Desert and where companies like Northrup-Grumman build the B2.

He's still active, selling gold coins and has sold 76 items in 15 years:




His reviews are very positive, but most of them involve "private listings" though from reading the reviews it sounds like more coins and collectable cards. He also has over 200 reviews as a buyer, again mostly coins and cards. I'll keep looking.

The USAF and CIA acquired the site in 1955, primarily for flight testing the Lockheed U-2 aircraft.[4]

Content from External Source

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_51

I don't really want to put the persons username here, in case it's not them - I'm not 100%. Make of all that what you will

Any relation to the eBay seller above?

 

[jackfrostvc]

@NorCal Dave

No, the one mentioned in post# 65. That has the brown carpet behind the patch

 

[jarlrmai]

Am I understanding this correctly? The seller on eBay was "lockheedskunk117"? Interesting name, he works in the Lockheed Skunkworks from Burbank CA, which built the U2, the A12 and later the F117. They were tested at Area 51. The site was obtained and constructed for the U2.

He claims the patch is in Palmdale which is near Edwards AFB in the Mojave Desert and where companies like Northrup-Grumman build the B2.

He's still active, selling gold coins and has sold 76 items in 15 years:




His reviews are very positive, but most of them involve "private listings" though from reading the reviews it sounds like more coins and collectable cards. He also has over 270 reviews as a buyer, again mostly coins and cards. I'll keep looking.

The USAF and CIA acquired the site in 1955, primarily for flight testing the Lockheed U-2 aircraft.[4]

Content from External Source

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_51



Any relation to the eBay seller above?

A breakdown would be

There was an ebay listing that ended in 27th Feb 2023, this ebay listing was linked to / posted on the soviet-awards.com website, and whatever tool/method they used grabbed an image from the ebay auction listing (because the metadata of that image contains a field that contains text added by an automated process performed by ebay.)

This posting was one of 5 such ebay auctions on the soviet-awards.com website, 4 of which still have photos (all of which appear to be the same physical object) however the photos are not identical.

One of the ebay auction photos matches exactly (based on the crinkles and folds in the background cloth and plastic sheath) the image used by Ross Coultart's presentation. The angle and colours/contrast look different because the presentation image is a photo of the photo being projected.



Luckily the specific ebay auction that used the Coultart photo is in Bing's cache so we can see the seller.

So at some point the patch itself or photo of the patch that was provided to Coultart was in the possession of this ebay seller, who also likely posted the other listings all of which contain different photos of the same patch which makes it more likely that they had the actual patch.