Rep. Luna Requests UAP Video, With a List of Names.

Has he demonstrated that these unfamiliar objects are actually "craft"? We have seen everything from photo defects to butterflies misidentified. If a thing looks weird from his viewpoint, isn't he jumping to unwarranted conclusions when he decides what it is?
Ryan from Post-disclosure world discusses something that James Fox said Mellon told him, on Rogan (gads). And has some good clips of Grusch testifying and Mellon talking about satellite images:

Source: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=exSKmNTN62c&pp=ygUQNGsgdWZvIHNhdGVsbGl0ZdIHCQneCgGHKiGM7w%3D%3D&ra=m
 
Ryan from Post-disclosure world discusses something that James Fox said Mellon told him, on Rogan (gads). And has some good clips of Grusch testifying and Mellon talking about satellite images:
I find the video singularly unimpressive. Grusch talks about the "overhead collection" - From satellites? Planes? He doesn't say. He says "I cannot explain them prosaically". Whoop-ti-doo.

Ryan wants to know if they're going "at velocities". He says if they have "velocities and shapes" they can tell if they're foreign or of "non-human origin". Scare-reverberations are employed to suggest the latter.

There's a statement that some things don't have exhaust, don't have wings, don't have a heat signature, but he just considers that to be mysterious, and doesn't draw the same conclusion as I do from that, that they are a lot closer and slower than he seems to think they are.

He admits that one organization disagrees with another organization, but desperately wants A to "admit" to the conclusions of B, rather than the reverse.
 
I find the video singularly unimpressive. Grusch talks about the "overhead collection" - From satellites? Planes? He doesn't say. He says "I cannot explain them prosaically". Whoop-ti-doo.

Ryan wants to know if they're going "at velocities". He says if they have "velocities and shapes" they can tell if they're foreign or of "non-human origin". Scare-reverberations are employed to suggest the latter.

There's a statement that some things don't have exhaust, don't have wings, don't have a heat signature, but he just considers that to be mysterious, and doesn't draw the same conclusion as I do from that, that they are a lot closer and slower than he seems to think they are.

He admits that one organization disagrees with another organization, but desperately wants A to "admit" to the conclusions of B, rather than the reverse.
That's where it's at now. We will have to see what happens. You certainly want more material to try and debunk; it's your ikigai.
I'm enjoying watching Burchett and Burlison being interviewed, Dagnabit! Burlison has a look on his face like he just came through a portal, and Burchett has a wild look in his eyes. Luna keeps her cool but looks discombobulated.
 
Last edited:
There's a statement that some things don't have exhaust, don't have wings, don't have a heat signature, but he just considers that to be mysterious, and doesn't draw the same conclusion as I do from that, that they are a lot closer and slower than he seems to think they are.
A meteor before it hits the atmosphere would have no exhaust, no wings and no heat signature. Many missiles, after their solid rocket motor burns out, would have no exhaust and no wings and be flying at high speed.
Having check-lists of characteristics can be helpful, but not everything you see is going to have all of the items listed, may not have any of them. The system performing the observation may or may not be able to detect some even if they are present.
The idea that members of congress, mostly lawyers, are going to perform analysis of images or video is stretching things a bit. They will be dependent on what information they are provided by whomever is showing them the images.

The idea that everyone has a right to know about classified programs sounds good as a sound bite. But how do you inform the American public without also informing the Russian and Chinese publics at the same time.

And finally, people talk about their need to know, on subjects where there is really only a WANT to know.
 
But how do you inform the American public without also informing the Russian and Chinese publics at the same time.
You shouldn't assume that there is something to "inform the American public" about, in this regard. Various entities within the government have publicly stated that no, there is nothing to tell, no, there are no crashed UFOs in custody, and no, there are no otherworldly bodies in cold storage at Wright-Pat. But the people who want to believe otherwise refuse to be convinced, and are demanding "disclosure" when there may be nothing to disclose.

A meteor before it hits the atmosphere would have no exhaust, no wings and no heat signature. Many missiles, after their solid rocket motor burns out, would have no exhaust and no wings and be flying at high speed.
True. But the former certainly has a heat signature after it reaches the atmosphere, and the latter has one before.
 
And finally, people talk about their need to know, on subjects where there is really only a WANT to know.
Here's an interesting question. If there was evidence of something extraterrestrial or something stranger that would scare a lot of people and destabilize things, perhaps globally —but answered the big questions about whether or not we are alone as "advanced" life in the universe, or provided some profound insight into the nature of reality, would the public have a right to know? As an ethical consideration, perhaps? Not claiming it is happening, but it could, and I'm sure there would be a plan for it (I'd hope).
I hear so many people glibly say "Oh yeah! Oh yeah! People are ready for contact.."
Are we? I don't think so. You certainly wouldn't want to have to interact on daily basis with the weird stuff (most people). So what would tolerable contact look like?
 
Last edited:
Ryan wants to know if they're going "at velocities". He says if they have "velocities and shapes" they can tell if they're foreign or of "non-human origin". Scare-reverberations are employed to suggest the latter.
What would really clinch it for me would be if these things are made from unknown alloys. I just need to hear you say that we don't know what alloys they're made from, Ann, and I'll finally believe.
 
What would really clinch it for me would be if these things are made from unknown alloys. I just need to hear you say that we don't know what alloys they're made from, Ann, and I'll finally believe.
Metallurgists concoct new alloys all the time. If "we" don't know (for any definition of "we") that doesn't mean that nobody knows. ;)
 
What would really clinch it for me would be if these things are made from unknown alloys. I just need to hear you say that we don't know what alloys they're made from, Ann, and I'll finally believe.
You'll be a believer! Better than being an alien, butt…
Reincarnated, now I'm a retriever!
Please just one more alloy, monsieur, it's wafer-thin..

Source: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C65zqVV6Bw8&list=RDC65zqVV6Bw8&start_radio=1&pp=ygUaaSdtIGEgYmVsaWV2ZXIgbW9ua2VlcyB1Zm-gBwE%3D&ra=m
 
Last edited:

The kicker:

External Quote:

"I have seen evidence in a SCIF that leads me to believe there are things we cannot explain," Luna said. "I have observed things that are of nonhuman origin and creation. That's my opinion."
So, it's her "opinion" that some stuff she saw in a SCIF led her to "believe" there are things some people, like her, can't explain. I guess that's sufficiently vague as usual. Maybe she saw something she could't explain. Maybe someone told her what she saw can't be explained. This leaves open the possibility that it CAN be explained, just not by her or whoever she was talking to in the SCIF. I guess we'll find out:

External Quote:

Later in the interview, she added: "When it's declassified, I will have a press conference, and I'll show you exactly what we saw."
External Quote:

"I think that the American people will have many of their questions answered," she said.
Good lord, the article goes on to talk about the Crypto-alien theory:

External Quote:

In 2024, a study by Harvard social science researchers suggested that aliens could be living underground on Earth or on the moon, and that UFOs and other unidentified anomalous phenomena (UAP) might be evidence of them getting around.
Discussion of the Havard paper here:

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/cl...on-the-dark-side-of-the-moon-or-alaska.13504/
 
Here's an interesting question. If there was evidence of something extraterrestrial or something stranger that would scare a lot of people and destabilize things, perhaps globally —but answered the big questions about whether or not we are alone as "advanced" life in the universe, or provided some profound insight into the nature of reality, would the public have a right to know? As an ethical consideration, perhaps?
...
I hear so many people glibly say "Oh yeah! Oh yeah! People are ready for contact.."
Are we
I think it is pretty evident that we're "ready" for being told there is extraterrestrial life -- there is not constant polling on this, but at least in the US the majority seems to already assume that there is life in the Universe other than here.
External Quote:
New YouGov polling finds that most Americans believe aliens exist, and many think that aliens have paid a visit to Earth in recent years. Americans are more likely to believe alien encounters would have a negative effect on human civilization than to think it would have a positive effect, and many believe that aliens would bring new diseases and unintentional harm or outright hostility to people if we were to encounter them.
So while noting that a lot of people assume negative consequences from aliens visiting,

External Quote:
56% of Americans believe aliens definitely or probably exist, more than the shares of Americans who believe Bigfoot (28%), the Yeti (23%), the Loch Ness monster (22%), or Chupacabra (16%) definitely or probably exist.

...

30% of Americans believe UFOs, or unidentified flying objects, are probably alien ships or life forms

...

Americans are almost evenly divided on whether aliens have visited Earth in recent years: 42% say they definitely or probably have and 41% say they definitely or probably have not.
The on-topic take-away I get from all that is that large numbers of us think that aliens have already visited us or are doing so now, and while a lot of us would expect a negative outcome from "contact," the substantial number who believe they're here already are not panicking. Confirming that something we already think is real is, in fact, real would seem to not be particularly dangerous!

The parallel in my mind is if the government were to anno8nce that dangerous venomous snakes are around where I live. I'm not trilled about it, but I already am convinced they are here (killed one with a shovel last year (I do not mind snakes existing, they are not allowed in my yard where I and people/cats I care about walk around!) and would not be more worried if the government confirmed it.

(Heck, where we are as a society right now, if aliens were announced to be here and in contact with us, and ample proof offered, one or the other political faction would refuse to believe it! See: COVID-19)

If aliens were announced tomorrow, I'd predict that there's be a shrug and "well yeah of course" by most folks, and by June 1 most people would not have it cross their minds at all on an average day.

PS: The non-on-topic thing that struck me was that there are substantially more people who believe aliens are definitely or probably visiting the Earth (42%) than there are those who believe UFOs probably represent aliens (30%) Perhaps they ave not thought about it enough to formulate an opinion, and the discrepancy emerges from the survey script, but I would be curious how that 12% thinks the aliens are getting here! (I cam think of a couple fo ways people might think aliens are arriving (teleporters, for example) but I have never heard anybody say "I think aliens are here, but they are not arriving via UFO!)
 
Maybe she saw something she could't explain. Maybe someone told her what she saw can't be explained. This leaves open the possibility that it CAN be explained, just not by her or whoever she was talking to in the SCIF.
Based on the history of "evidence" produced thus far, I'd say this is almost a certainty.

Big UFO is like a penny stock company that announces all kinds of optimistic plans and then goes silent until the next capital raising is announced. Past plans remain vaguely "in progress" and eventually disappear without explanation, replaced with a new optimistic plan for something else.

@Mick West is it possible to add a facepalm reaction to Metabunk?
 
I think an announcement that we are not alone would be okay, many would shrug, skeptics and everyone else would need proof, of course. So disclosure I guess.
I was thinking more of contact; the level might just remain the same with no tipping point (if you believe that is happening). But I don't think we could deal with ongoing direct interaction with these things, unless ongoing direct contact would be different.
Even if it turned out to be weird looking physical beasties, we would have problems (I think it is a lot stranger than that). We can barely deal with each other looking different on this planet. Certainly not daily interaction with the kind of objects many are reporting. They aren't good for your health, up close. Could they interact In another way; in bodies or different objects? Maybe. But maybe this is the only way they can be here. Don't know.
 
Last edited:
External Quote:

"I have seen evidence in a SCIF that leads me to believe there are things we cannot explain," Luna said. "I have observed things that are of nonhuman origin and creation. That's my opinion."
If Luna has "seen evidence in a SCIF" then she has undoubtedly just seen a picture of something. Not the thing itself, nor has she had her hands on it, nor has she done any kind of analysis on it. Any knowledge she has is only what someone else showed her or told her. We have found explanations for a good many things on Metabunk that people would have us believe "couldn't be explained". She has a degree in biology, but a trained biologist would still use more than a photo of something unfamiliar to ascertain whether it was an earthly creature. "Of nonhuman origin and creation" is a claim that would require a LOT of specialized analysis to state with any certainty, not just a look at a photo.
 
I'm just surprised any of this is happening! We could have just lived and died like so many others. The whole thing has been going on for so long. Skeptics could die without ever having anything really fun to debunk again!
 
I'm just surprised any of this is happening! We could have just lived and died like so many others. The whole thing has been going on for so long. Skeptics could die without ever having anything really fun to debunk again!
"...any of this is happening"?? True Believers (and comic book artists) have been promising that for a looooooong time. It hasn't happened yet.
 
"...any of this is happening"?? True Believers (and comic book artists) have been promising that for a looooooong time. It hasn't happened yet.
I wasn't expecting the original NYT article, or anything that has followed. If you had told me fifteen years ago that congresspeople would be going into SCiFs and coming out saying crazy things, I wouldn't have believed you. Could be a heck of a lot more boring than it is. Just repeatedly debunking Starlink sightings sounds in perpetuity sounds like a special kind of hell.
I'm not promising anything; just hoping. I don't control the disclosure of UFO files. I had resigned myself to just telling folks about my experiences, as per feeling of obligation, nothing coming of it, getting old and dying.
I've been around quite a few mathematicians and scientists. In fact, I just came back from working at a meeting with a bunch of them. I think it is important for scientists and "true believers" to come together. Scientists must keep an open mind. Occam's Razor represents a likelihood, not a certainty. I get tired of hearing crazy stories too; that's why I'm here —for the most part. I think it's important for scientists to communicate in an engaging and friendly way with others in order to be effective science communicators. Is it fatiguing? I'm sure it is, but it's necessary. I've known a number of mathematicians and scientists that anre not good at it, so I'm quite accustomed to them! :)Other professions are also fatiguing. Other ways of thinking are also useful. Sit down and draw a comic book; I'll wait for you to post it.

<edit>
Off the top of my head just to make you happy:

Kingdom
Phylum
Class
Order
Family
Genus
Species

You're a scientist, Ann. Tell me how you'd make a skyrocket! Don't look it up.
 
Last edited:
It seems like a lot of the UFO folks in the echo chamber ye all despise are, wait for it…. Scientists. At least they have the degrees. And yet many folks with no training think they are full of it.
 
We can barely deal with each other looking different on this planet.
Yes, on a galactic timescale, our human civilization is still in the infant phase, and at high risk of mortality.

What chance do we have of communicating with any advanced alien civilization, which is more than likely nothing like us at all?

Could they interact In another way; in bodies or different objects? Maybe.
That is the crux of the issue. Let us assume they can adjust their method of communication to suit our human minds.

What could a theoretic advanced alien civilization communicate to us such that:

1. We could understand.
2. Which would be genuinely useful.
3, Which does not carry the risk of being harmful.

To my mind, the message could only be those things that we either know already, or can figure out for ourselves anyway.

Some may say the confirmation that "we are not alone" would be useful by itself. No doubt useful for scientists, and also very useful for demagogues, fanatics, and grifters.

It seems like a lot of the UFO folks in the echo chamber ye all despise are, wait for it…. Scientists.
Yep, scientists are also human. Consider the decades of climate change research. Yet there remains a handful of scientists who may present themselves as underdogs fighting to expose the "truth" of the climate change conspiracy. Sound familiar?

IMO, The Great Silence, regardless of the true reasons for it, is within itself a profound message. It should give all of us pause for thought.
 
Yes, I very much agree with very much of that. I actually started out in biology through high school but changed majors in college. Not for lack of interest; other things interested me more. But, I love science and spend a lot of time trying to keep up on it. I hope something interesting pops up for you folks! It'll be fun one way or the other! :)
A best friend of mine when I was young is now a prominent Google scientist. I talked to him on phone and wanted to tell him about my experiences, because we used to stay up late at night talking about UFOs when we were kids, but he treated me like I was crazy. Oh well! :cool:
I've dealt with all kinds of people, and there can be an arrogance / ossification that creeps into the human part of some folks with advanced degrees. You smile and continue.
 
Last edited:
Here's an interesting question. If there was evidence of something extraterrestrial or something stranger that would scare a lot of people and destabilize things, perhaps globally —but answered the big questions about whether or not we are alone as "advanced" life in the universe, or provided some profound insight into the nature of reality, would the public have a right to know?

Yes, I think the public, at least in established democracies, would have a right to know.
People- at least competent adults- don't have a right to be protected from truths they might find troubling or inconvenient,
and governments shouldn't take it upon themselves to hide such truths.
An electorate should be informed, otherwise it cannot make informed decisions, and the franchise becomes diminished.
If the executive determines what the public should know then the public might not be equipped to determine who should be the executive.*

On arguably comparable major issues, I don't think there is a precedent (post-WW2) of a democratic government "shielding" the public from the truth.
The best example of this is the nuclear threat during the Cold War.
No private citizens in North America, Western Europe etc. ever saw a Soviet or Chinese nuclear test, and none would have had the means to verify if any had taken place**. Both states were known to make false claims, the USSR used doctored/ faked images; claims of tests could have been dismissed as propaganda. This didn't happen.

The governments of democracies did not hide the fact that any location, in any country, could be utterly destroyed. People in Western Europe were aware that they could receive as little as four minutes warning (UK) or much less (FRG) before inescapable death for around 30 years.
From the mid-60s on, Americans were aware that any target in their country could be hit and destroyed at will by the USSR.***
Some anti-nuclear campaigners argued that the consequences of nuclear warfare were not adequately publicized by their governments, but it would be disingenuous to say this information was suppressed. Academic papers, TV documentaries and dramatizations (The War Game, The Day After, Threads) and a whole sub-genre of literary fiction (On The Beach, many others) all described the devastating effects of nuclear war, up to and including human extinction.
Yet faced with these depressing facts about a very real, life-threatening possibility, there wasn't mass panic or societal breakdown.
The nuclear threat might have played a role in some instances of stress and mental illness, and a very small number of people deciding to move to remote areas, but the hundreds of millions of people at risk by and large continued with their lives as per usual.

Facts regarding global warming have not been supressed (though the stance of the current US administration concerns me).
Any realistic efforts to minimize global warming will be expensive, and unpopular amongst many groups of people, some of whom are likely to suffer significantly (e.g. coal mining communities). This has almost certainly impacted the political will to address the issue- but the facts have not been systematically hidden from us.

I don't agree with the premise that reliable evidence of ETI would "destabilize things" globally, or even cause marked civil unrest.
Why should it?
It's a trope of UFO enthusiasts (who never explain why it's other people who will be affected) used to "explain" why the (often, US) government hasn't shared what it knows. It conforms with the beliefs of conspiracy theorists and those who axiomatically distrust "the authorities" while allowing broadly patriotic and apolitical UFO enthusiasts to believe the government, armed forces or whatever aren't bad guys exactly; they're just mistakenly doing what they think is in our best interests. In my view, such paternalism would make them bad guys.
(I have no belief whatsoever that any governments have any reliable evidence of ETI.)

But why would knowledge of ETI be scarier than knowing that your life- or at least your relatively comfortable way of life- could end within a few minutes of an attack warning? And living with that knowledge for years?
Would the people of Ukraine, Gaza, Sudan feel less safe than they do? And take to the streets because some US Congress people have said "This is definitely a photo of an alien spacecraft" or something similar?

The "example" of Orson Welles' 1938 radio play War of the Worlds might be raised, but it is irrelevant: (1) It portrayed an attack, in America, with people "dying" in "real time" on air; (2) There's actually very little evidence that there was any mass panic (post #22, thread "The role of contemporary culture in the changing UFO narrative").

Many hundreds of millions- perhaps billions- of people living in less wealthy countries might be forgiven for thinking that evidence of ETI was a first world problem. If they got to hear about it. A truly benevolent ETI might advise on how to tackle wealth inequalities, food insecurity and vaccine scepticism long before it gave us FTL drives or whatever else our contemporary cargo cults think we should get.



*There are some defence, security and law enforcement matters that are understandably kept secret; more mundanely tax changes, budget planning and other financial matters are sometimes kept secret until they come into effect to minimize insider trading, profiteering, tax evasion etc.

**Excluding some civilians working in defence/ intelligence, a very few others (e.g. some radio astronomers, re the "Arecibo ripple" 22/09/79).

***No potential US target could have withstood a nuclear strike or near-miss from a weapon assigned to destroy it, including the NORAD command center at (in) Cheyenne Mountain:
External Quote:
At the end of the tour, he [President Reagan] asked Commanding General James Hill what would happen if a Soviet SS-18 hit within a few hundred yards of the steel front doors. Without a moment's hesitation, the general answered, "It would blow us away." Reagan was incredulous.
George Shultz Turmoil & Triumph, passage viewable at The Margaret Thatcher Foundation website https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/110632
 
Last edited:
I wasn't expecting the original NYT article, or anything that has followed. If you had told me fifteen years ago that congresspeople would be going into SCiFs and coming out saying crazy things, I wouldn't have believed you.
Please seek out the AARO historical report, volume 1. It contains an overview of what went on 50+ years ago. Congress investigating UFOs is a case of history repeating, and the outcome is predictable to those who learned the lesson.
 
I hope that long-term members of this site remember this thread, about an incident when Rep. Luna (alongside Mark Gaetz and Tim Burchett) saw a photo of a UAP in Florida; I suspect this may be the same 'proof' she is referring to.
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/cl...hnology-the-us-doesnt-have.13098/#post-297291

This incident is described in more detail here
https://eu.pnj.com/story/news/polit...cident-near-eglin-air-force-base/70470761007/
Gaetz said that several months ago, his office received a protective disclosure of a UAP encounter off the coast of Florida from Eglin Air Force Base in Okaloosa County.
Gaetz traveled to Northwest Florida with Tennessee Congressman Tim Burchett and Florida Congresswoman Anna Paulina Luna where they asked to meet with the pilots and see any images and radar data from the incident.
"We were not afforded access to all of the flight crew, and initially, we were not afforded access to images and to radar (data)," Gaetz said. "Thereafter, we had a bit of a discussion about how authorities flow in the United States of America, and we did see the image, and we did meet with one member of the flight crew who took the image."
Gaetz said the pilot told him they were doing a test flight over the Gulf of Mexico on a clear day when four objects were identified on radar flying in a diamond formation.
Gaetz said he's personally seen the radar data from the incident.
"One of the pilots goes to check out that diamond formation and sees a large floating, what I can only describe as an orb, again, like I said, not have any human capability that I'm aware of," Gaetz said. "And when he approached, he said that his radar went down. He said that his FLIR (infrared camera) system malfunctioned and that he had to manually take this image from one of the lenses."
Metabunk's analysis of this incident was necessarily tentative, since we don't have access to the data; but it sounds like Luna, Gaetz and Burchett had very restricted access to the information themselves. It convinced them, rightly or wrongly (almost certainly wrongly).
 
Please seek out the AARO historical report, volume 1. It contains an overview of what went on 50+ years ago. Congress investigating UFOs is a case of history repeating, and the outcome is predictable to those who learned the lesson.
Right, well you'll certainly want to be present to make that point if this all turns out to be nonsense so it doesn't happen yet again and will want to know who is providing the misinformation / misidentifications in the SCiFs. Words of truth: we're just going to have to wait and see, and harumph it, if you are right. We'll need to get to the bottom of why the intelligence / defense communities are hallucinating these things and telling Congress they are unknowns. That's the kind of thing the CIA was worried about.
 
Last edited:
Yes, I think the public, at least in established democracies, would have a right to know.
People- at least competent adults- don't have a right to be protected from truths they might find troubling or inconvenient,
and governments shouldn't take it upon themselves to hide such truths.
An electorate should be informed, otherwise it cannot make informed decisions, and the franchise becomes diminished.
If the executive determines what the public should know then the public might not be equipped to determine who should be the executive.*

On arguably comparable major issues, I don't think there is a precedent (post-WW2) of a democratic government "shielding" the public from the truth.
The best example of this is the nuclear threat during the Cold War.
No private citizens in North America, Western Europe etc. ever saw a Soviet or Chinese nuclear test, and none would have had the means to verify if any had taken place**. Both states were known to make false claims, the USSR used doctored/ faked images; claims of tests could have been dismissed as propaganda. This didn't happen.

The governments of democracies did not hide the fact that any location, in any country, could be utterly destroyed. People in Western Europe were aware that they could receive as little as four minutes warning (UK) or much less (FRG) before inescapable death for around 30 years.
From the mid-60s on, Americans were aware that any target in their country could be hit and destroyed at will by the USSR.***
Some anti-nuclear campaigners argued that the consequences of nuclear warfare were not adequately publicized by their governments, but it would be disingenuous to say this information was suppressed. Academic papers, TV documentaries and dramatizations (The War Game, The Day After, Threads) and a whole sub-genre of literary fiction (On The Beach, many others) all described the devastating effects of nuclear war, up to and including human extinction.
Yet faced with these depressing facts about a very real, life-threatening possibility, there wasn't mass panic or societal breakdown.
The nuclear threat might have played a role in some instances of stress and mental illness, and a very small number of people deciding to move to remote areas, but the hundreds of millions of people at risk by and large continued with their lives as per usual.

Facts regarding global warming have not been supressed (though the stance of the current US administration concerns me).
Any realistic efforts to minimize global warming will be expensive, and unpopular amongst many groups of people, some of whom are likely to suffer significantly (e.g. coal mining communities). This has almost certainly impacted the political will to address the issue- but the facts have not been systematically hidden from us.

I don't agree with the premise that reliable evidence of ETI would "destabilize things" globally, or even cause marked civil unrest.
Why should it?
It's a trope of UFO enthusiasts (who never explain why it's other people who will be affected) used to "explain" why the (often, US) government hasn't shared what it knows. It conforms with the beliefs of conspiracy theorists and those who axiomatically distrust "the authorities" while allowing broadly patriotic and apolitical UFO enthusiasts to believe the government, armed forces or whatever aren't bad guys exactly; they're just mistakenly doing what they think is in our best interests. In my view, such paternalism would make them bad guys.
(I have no belief whatsoever that any governments have any reliable evidence of ETI.)

But why would knowledge of ETI be scarier than knowing that your life- or at least your relatively comfortable way of life- could end within a few minutes of an attack warning? And living with that knowledge for years?
Would the people of Ukraine, Gaza, Sudan feel less safe than they do? And take to the streets because some US Congress people have said "This is definitely a photo of an alien spacecraft" or something similar?

The "example" of Orson Welles' 1938 radio play War of the Worlds might be raised, but it is irrelevant: (1) It portrayed an attack, in America, with people "dying" in "real time" on air; (2) There's actually very little evidence that there was any mass panic (post #22, thread "The role of contemporary culture in the changing UFO narrative").

Many hundreds of millions- perhaps billions- of people living in less wealthy countries might be forgiven for thinking that evidence of ETI was a first world problem. If they got to hear about it. A truly benevolent ETI might advise on how to tackle wealth inequalities, food insecurity and vaccine scepticism long before it gave us FTL drives or whatever else our contemporary cargo cults think we should get.



*There are some defence, security and law enforcement matters that are understandably kept secret; more mundanely tax changes, budget planning and other financial matters are sometimes kept secret until they come into effect to minimize insider trading, profiteering, tax evasion etc.

**Excluding some civilians working in defence/ intelligence, a very few others (e.g. some radio astronomers, re the "Arecibo ripple" 22/09/79).

***No potential US target could have withstood a nuclear strike or near-miss from a weapon assigned to destroy it, including the NORAD command center at (in) Cheyenne Mountain:
External Quote:
At the end of the tour, he [President Reagan] asked Commanding General James Hill what would happen if a Soviet SS-18 hit within a few hundred yards of the steel front doors. Without a moment's hesitation, the general answered, "It would blow us away." Reagan was incredulous.
George Shultz Turmoil & Triumph, passage viewable at The Margaret Thatcher Foundation website https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/110632
I grew up every day with the fear of nuclear war. Went to protests. Your comparison of the management of information regarding the threat of nuclear annhilation with disclosure, isn't a bad one, provided the government actually knew what UFOs were, and their intentions. People were aware of the dangers of nuclear weapons, had seen them in use, watched them being tested. I was referring to the possible destructive nature of contact. I think an announcement about the existence of alien intelligence would cause problems but they probably wouldn't be catastrophic. Depending on the nature of what we are dealing with, and how it interacts with us, it might not be easy to tell the public everything about it, and that's the kind of noises government types are making, too. What if it was integrated and surveilling us constantly, or manipulating events, or already causing us some form of existential crisis unknown to the public? Have to wait and see. And then a lot of people being convinced they are demons, and some not. That would go over well. For better or worse, we think we can control and manage nuclear weapons, though they still cause fear. Something intelligent and unknown with unknown intentions can't be dealt with psychologically in the same way. AND, we still have the freaking nuclear weapons.
 
Last edited:
I wasn't expecting the original NYT article, or anything that has followed. If you had told me fifteen years ago that congresspeople would be going into SCiFs and coming out saying crazy things, I wouldn't have believed you. Could be a heck of a lot more boring than it is. Just repeatedly debunking Starlink sightings sounds in perpetuity sounds like a special kind of hell.
I'm not promising anything; just hoping. I don't control the disclosure of UFO files. I had resigned myself to just telling folks about my experiences, as per feeling of obligation, nothing coming of it, getting old and dying.
I've been around quite a few mathematicians and scientists. In fact, I just came back from working at a meeting with a bunch of them. I think it is important for scientists and "true believers" to come together. Scientists must keep an open mind. Occam's Razor represents a likelihood, not a certainty. I get tired of hearing crazy stories too; that's why I'm here —for the most part. I think it's important for scientists to communicate in an engaging and friendly way with others in order to be effective science communicators. Is it fatiguing? I'm sure it is, but it's necessary. I've known a number of mathematicians and scientists that anre not good at it, so I'm quite accustomed to them! :)Other professions are also fatiguing. Other ways of thinking are also useful. Sit down and draw a comic book; I'll wait for you to post it.

<edit>
Off the top of my head just to make you happy:

Kingdom
Phylum
Class
Order
Family
Genus
Species

You're a scientist, Ann. Tell me how you'd make a skyrocket! Don't look it up.
Uh...what? You seem to think the word "scientist" encompasses all branches of science. I'm a polymer chemist. I'm not an aerospace engineer. But I do know enough about various different sciences, including physics and astronomy, to have a grasp of the realities of the situation. And when someone describes, say, an "other-worldly" phenomenon that makes an "impossible" turn and zips off at an "unbelievable" speed, then (1) I don't believe the unbelievable, because (2) I don't think the impossible is possible. We know the limitations of physics in our atmosphere quite well.

There are improbabilities to consider as weIl, hugely skewed toward zero. I also (3) have some idea of the enormous distances involved to any "other world" and (4) the "timing" problem, the massive unlikelihood that any other civilization reached the space-faring technology stage at roughly the same time we have.

These are reasons I firmly remain in the camp of those who dismiss the idea of space-alien visitations. Earthly intrusions by hostile powers? Yes, and those need investigation. "Little green men" from another planet? Nope.
 
Right, many scientists have highly specialized training/ expertise because there is so much science going on now. Good thing. Others in their own disciplines also have specific training and expertise, so best to be respectful of folks.

Yes, I am familiar with the distance arguments, Anthropic Principle, Great Silence, etc.

But, you have to keep your mind pried open with that crowbar, or you'll lose a very valuable thing about science. Might be stranger than you think. Unknown unknowns.
 
"Little green men" from another planet? Nope.
Might be stranger than you think. Unknown unknowns.

How about this for a stranger than you think idea:

The best way for ETI to monitor us these days is to tap into the internet! Almost everything they could want to learn about our planet is ready for them to harvest.

ETI AI could be monitoring this very forum right now! Some of them may well be little green men, so let us all ensure that our politeness policy extends to them!

(I'm only half joking here, you never truly know ...)
 
Back
Top