Preview of Luis Elizondo's UFO book: "Imminent"

[RTM]

Oh, no doubt.

But it's a ballsy move to name your book something that's gonna mock your readers as time goes on.

The memory hole is deep in UFOlogy.

 

[Duke]

The memory hole is deep in UFOlogy.

Ufology and politics are the only two careers where someone can be totally discredited, yet comeback and reestablish themselves like nothing ever happened.

 

[taurusclover21]

(The first lie is on the cover: AATIP was never an official, funded Department of Defense program.)

Would you elaborate, please?

 

[Mendel]

Oh, no doubt.

But it's a ballsy move to name your book something that's gonna mock your readers as time goes on.

It's a timeless title.

 

[Mendel]

Would you elaborate, please?

From the AARO Historical Report:

"AATIP was never an official DoD program."

 

[Mendel]

@Mick West's video, apparently using Elizondo's audiobook?

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6Pc48yXWyI

Mick has made a new thread on the book, starting from this video (with transcript), at https://www.metabunk.org/threads/errors-in-luis-elizondos-ufo-book-imminent.13613/ .

 

[taurusclover21]

From the AARO Historical Report:
View attachment 70956
"AATIP was never an official DoD program."

Thank you! I read the DIA INFO MEMO of DEC 01 2010 which said almost as much, so I assumed your comment was along those lines.

 

[Mendel]

Thank you! I read the DIA INFO MEMO of DEC 01 2010 which said almost as much, so I assumed your comment was along those lines.

You are referring to https://www.dia.mil/FOIA/FOIA-Electronic-Reading-Room/ , INFO_MEMO_U-10-2552-CE.pdf (attached), which describes the activities also known as AAWSAP, but not the later UFO-hunting effort that Elizondo was the center of.

 

[taurusclover21]

You are referring to https://www.dia.mil/FOIA/FOIA-Electronic-Reading-Room/ , INFO_MEMO_U-10-2552-CE.pdf (attached), which describes the activities also known as AAWSAP, but not the later UFO-hunting effort that Elizondo was the center of.

Thank you for the clarification. The subject of that memo is Advanced Aerospace Threat and Identification Program (AATIP), which got my attention.

 

[Duke]

You are referring to https://www.dia.mil/FOIA/FOIA-Electronic-Reading-Room/ , INFO_MEMO_U-10-2552-CE.pdf (attached), which describes the activities also known as AAWSAP, but not the later UFO-hunting effort that Elizondo was the center of.

Doesn't the DIA memo of 1 Dec 2010 you included here say ATTIP was funded with Reid's $10M plus-up money in 2008, and an additional $12M plus-up in 2010? Also, no mention of AAWSAP at all in that memo.

 

[CasualDebunk]

Oh, no doubt.

But it's a ballsy move to name your book something that's gonna mock your readers as time goes on.

His readers don't seem the type that would hold him accountable regardless.

 

[Mendel]

Doesn't the DIA memo of 1 Dec 2010 you included here say ATTIP was funded with Reid's $10M plus-up money in 2008, and an additional $12M plus-up in 2010? Also, no mention of AAWSAP at all in that memo.

Yes, but if you look at the bigger picture, that's really the AAWSAP budget. (The DIA FOIA reading room section on AATIP even includes the Bigelow contract.) Obviously the AARO historians have seen this memo, which is why they wrote that the names have been used interchangeably, including on official documentation.
Elizondo's UFO hunting effort was separate from that, and had no budget.

[I'd summon @NorCal Dave , but I think he's on his way to Burning Man.]

 

[Duke]

Yes, but if you look at the bigger picture, that's really the AAWSAP budget. (The DIA FOIA reading room section on AATIP even includes the Bigelow contract.) Obviously the AARO historians have seen this memo, which is why they wrote that the names have been used interchangeably, including on official documentation.
Elizondo's UFO hunting effort was separate from that, and had no budget.

[I'd summon @NorCal Dave , but I think he's on his way to Burning Man.]

Seemed odd to post a source that directly contradicts the position you are espousing, then claim it will support the position if we accept it's wrong. Somewhere on MB there is also a letter from Reid that, from what I remember, substantiates the DIA memo.

When Elizondo first came out of the woodwork, he claimed he/ATTIP had a budget of $22M over five years. The official DIA memo you sourced cites the same dollar figure, ($10M in 2008, $12M in 2010) but doesn't mention a length of time. Again, the three star DIA memo doesn't mention AAWSAP.

I'm not going to speculate about who "obviously" saw what, simply because in your "bigger picture" it makes no difference who ran which alphabet soup agency and got $22M (over at least three years) to investigate UAPs. Multiple senior bureaucrats claiming credit for accomplishments that would put them in good stead with those they'll need to impress post-government? No surprise there, I've seen it happen in at least a few more mainstream programs. Success has many fathers.


More importantly (at least to me) is that's such an insignificant amount of money, that's round-up error in major programs. I've seen higher dollar programs managed by lieutenants. Did we the tax payers get our money's worth out of it? Doubtful, but that's true for most plus-up/pork projects. Sometimes the wants of one outweight the needs of many.

One thing the DIA memo (dated 1 Dec 2010) does appear to contradict Elizondo on was the classification level of ATTIP. He claimed it was highly classified, even stated he resigned in protest over the high level of secrecy. If you look at the DIA memo, however, you'll see an "unclassified/FOUO" stamp. If the program was classified, you'd not see that much information in an unclassified document. Conversely, if classified information was in the memo, each page would be stamped with its overall classification level, along with each paragraph's classification level. The overall document classification is the same as the highest level of classification anywhere in the document.

For those who don't understand how the "For Official Use Only" (FOUO) designation differs from a security classification, it's a function of who can see it. FOUO requires no security clearance for anyone to see whatever it is, just a need to access it to do his/her job. As I recall, not all FOUO documents are exempt from FOIA.

 

[Mendel]

I'm not going to speculate about who "obviously" saw what, simply because in your "bigger picture" it makes no difference who ran which alphabet soup agency and got $22M (over at least three years) to investigate UAPs.

It's not about agencies, it's about programs. And Elizondo didn't run AAWSAP, Lacatski did.
Much of its budget was spent on speculative science (DIRDs), and going werewolf hunting at Skinwalker Ranch. See https://www.metabunk.org/threads/the-origins-of-aawsap.12484/ .

 

[Duke]

It's not about agencies, it's about programs. And Elizondo didn't run AAWSAP, Lacatski did.
Much of its budget was spent on speculative science (DIRDs), and going werewolf hunting at Skinwalker Ranch. See https://www.metabunk.org/threads/the-origins-of-aawsap.12484/ .

Fair point. I consciously used "agency" because I thought I'd over used "program" in the post. (I also liked how "alphabet agency" sounded.) In hindsight, should have used "project" or maybe "activity." Don't recall claiming Elizondo ran AAWSAP, in fact my only reference to AAWSAP in that post was to say it wasn't mentioned in the document you sourced.

I don't know who is right, Reid/DIA/Elizondo or Knapp/Lacatski/Kelleher/Kirkpatrick, about which project got/controlled/spent a tiny $22M budget spread over multiple years.To be honest, I don't care. No matter which of those characters/activities was in control of the cash, they apparently executed the program legally within the context of Reid's earmark. And arguably most importantly, at least from Reid's perspective, his buddy Bigelow got his pork. Regardless of who sent the cash out West and under what programmatic moniker, I would have a difficult time accepting whatever came from it was value-added to the tax paying American public.

 

[MonkeeSage]

One thing the DIA memo (dated 1 Dec 2010) does appear to contradict Elizondo on was the classification level of ATTIP. He claimed it was highly classified, even stated he resigned in protest over the high level of secrecy. If you look at the DIA memo, however, you'll see an "unclassified/FOUO" stamp. If the program was classified, you'd not see that much information in an unclassified document. Conversely, if classified information was in the memo, each page would be stamped with its overall classification level, along with each paragraph's classification level. The overall document classification is the same as the highest level of classification anywhere in the document.

For those who don't understand how the "For Official Use Only" (FOUO) designation differs from a security classification, it's a function of who can see it. FOUO requires no security clearance for anyone to see whatever it is, just a need to access it to do his/her job. As I recall, not all FOUO documents are exempt from FOIA.

AATIP is the name used in a SAP request that would have classified AAWSAP and their deliverables, but was ultimately rejected. AAWSAP has since been referred to by both titles in several documents, but AAWSAP was the actual (unclassified) program that existed.

Senator Harry Reid wrote a letter to Deputy Secretary of Defense, William Lynn, dated June 24, 2009, requesting the establishment of a SAP for AATIP.

Since the Advanced Aerospace Threat and Identification Program (AAITP) and study were first commissioned, much progress has been made with the identification of several highly sensitive, unconventional aerospace~related findings. Given the current rate of success, the continued study of these subjects will likely lead to technology advancements that in the immediate near-term will require extraordinary protection. Due to the sensitivities of the information surrounding aspects of this program, I require your assistance in establishing a Restricted Special-Access-Program (SAP) with a Bigoted Access List for specific portions of the AATIP.

Source: https://documents2.theblackvault.co...090624_Reid_to_DEPSECDEF_ref_AAITP_in_SAP.pdf

After reviewing the program, DIA wrote in a memo to OUSDI dated November 13, 2009, that Reid was actually referring to AAWSAP as AATIP, and they could not justify a SAP for the program based on the unclassified nature of their deliverables and projected future products.

(U//FOUO) This info memo responds to your request for the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) [redacted] to evaluate a request from Senator Harry Reid (enclosure 1) to establish a restricted special access program (SAP) for the Advanced Aerospace Weapon Systems Application Program Contract, referred to in Senator Reid's letter as the Advanced Aerospace Threat and Identification Program (AATIP). In reviewing the deliverables to date and looking ahead to planned production in fiscal year (FY) 2010, DIA cannot find adequate justification to establish a restricted SAP.

(U//FOUO) All program documents delivered to during FY 2009 (the first year of the program) were unclassified because the contractor had not established a secure facility, and program employees were being vetted for clearances. In FY 2010, most research products will remain at the unclassified level. However, four to six of the original technical reports will be expanded to included classified data. These reports will focus on foreign research in a particular technology area and will likely be derivatively classified at the secret level. Based on classification levels of current and projected program deliverables, there are insufficient grounds to classify this open program, invoke alternative or compensatory control measures (ACCM), or establish a restricted SAP.

Source: https://documents2.theblackvault.co...-Review_of_Special_Access_Program_Request.pdf

In an information packet provided to DepSecDef sometime after November 17, 2009, James Clapper wrote the following summary.

Senator Harry Reid sent a letter to you on June 24, 2009 requesting the Department of Defense put the AAITP under 'Restricted Special Access Protection'(Tab A). The AAITP that SEN Reid refers to is officially the Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Application Program (AAWSAP) contract managed by DIA. Its primary purpose is to investigate revolutionary advances in future aerospace technologies with emphasis on research of unconventional and revolutionary technologies. The sole bid for the contract was from Bigelow Aerospace Advance Space Studies located in Las Vegas, NV. The resulting contract was for multiple sub-contractors to perform unclassified research in 11 technical areas and deliver technical reports on those areas by July 31, 2009. [redacted] directed a quality review of the technical reports that DIA completed in October 2009.

In late October 2009, DIA completed the technical review of the program deliverables (Tab B) and provided USD(I) SAPCO the current status of the AAWSAP. The program manager and his leadership advised that they saw no justification for Special Access protections based on the content of the FY09 deliverables or the anticipated FY10 work. This recommendation is formally stated and outlined in the attached memorandum from [redacted] (Tab C).

Senators Reid and Inouye co-sponsored a $10M earmark in the July 2008 supplemental to fund this DIA effort to look at potential future aerospace weapons threats. A $12M earmark has been allocated to support the program in FY2010.

Based on the recommendation from DIA and my staffs review of the technical reports, I recommend against establishing a Special Access Program at this time.

Source: https://documents2.theblackvault.co...09117-Final_Packet_Presented_to_DepSecDef.pdf

All of the DIRD reports delivered by AAWSAP, which John Greenwald received via FOIA, are stamped with UNCLASSIFIED//FOUO (they are linked at the bottom of the page).

https://www.theblackvault.com/docum...em-applications-program-aawsap-documentation/

 

[John J.]

Two colleagues in particular were under medical care for both cutaneous and visceral injuries that were sustained from interactions with UAP while working with AAWSAP/AATIP, and we had numerous reports of negative biological effects associated with UAP encounters, especially orbs. The injuries sustained seemed to stem from some sort of directed-energy exposure, almost like radiation. Unfortunately, multiple members of our team (excluding myself) experienced severe biological effects resulting in life-threatening medical issues.

I'm guessing we're not going to see any imminent disclosure of material supporting these claims.
And I would be very surprised if anyone working with AAWSAP/AATIP was diagnosed by a doctor of medicine as suffering from radiation sickness, or burns due to ionising radiation, during their time under Lou's command.

 

[elvenwear]

My thought experiment on this has long been professional sports, where you have thousands of hometown fans at any given stadium wishing for balls to travel different trajectories (not to mention whoever's watching at home) -- and despite millions of hours of recordings from multiple angles with real-time commentary over several decades there's no clear evidence of balls showing physics-defying behavior.

If we had the ability to view remotely without the need for sense organs, why wouldn't our sense organs become atavistic like the eyes of cave fish? For me, as well, the lack of peer review is a problem with this and any other classified science project.

The declassified files of Stargate are located here. I've only glanced at them, but there aren't a lot of redactions, which is telling. Elizondo's name may appear in there if this is the case.

I find this exchange on page 29 of Imminent interesting

"Good morning," Jay said, "we've heard a lot about you. It's good to finally meet." Without realizing it, I acknowledged them with a single-syllable grunt." My apologies," I added. "I haven't had enough coffee this morning." " h, Café Bustelo?" Rosemary said. "I love Cuban coffee." I thought: How does she know I'm drinking that brand of coffee? The can was nowhere to be seen. A lucky guess, or something more? Had these two strangers been investigating me?" Okay," I said. "What did I do now?" Half-joking, but not really. "I'm sorry?" Rosemary said. "You're obviously here for something, so what did I do now? "Jay and Rosemary glanced at each other. The blue credentials around their necks were the giveaway that they were both government intelligence officials. "You didn't do anything wrong," Jay said. Rosemary approached my desk. "We're here to talk to you about something very important. A matter of national security." Nothing new for me. Everything I did touched on national security. Still, my visitors had piqued my curiosity. A short while later, fresh Cuban coffee in hand, Rosemary said, "We are interested in your counterintelligence and security experience for a highly classified program led out of our office at DIA."

So this is presented as a word for word conversation he had with two people in 2009. Either Elizondo has perfect recall, he recorded the conversation or he is taking liberties with the truth. It's a little nit-picky, but if you are trying to make a credible account of an extraordinary claim, it isn't great to start out by taking artistic liberties to create a story.

On page 30 Elizondo makes a testable assertion.

They described it as a small but highly sensitive program focused on "unconventional technologies,"

If it can be demonstrated the program's purpose is to identify objects in US airspace, for example, then this would refute this assertion (the assertion is also made elsewhere).

On page 51, we have another testable claim. A quick online search finds nothing to support this. Brian De Palma is still alive and according to IMDB is still working on films.

Madness lurked under the surface with my father. The years of abuse in Castro's prisons seemed to have changed the wiring in my dad's brain. In the early 1980s, the movie director Brian De Palma had his people meet my father and his friend, both Cuban exiles, when De Palma tried to get inside the mind of the hot headed Cuban character he conceived for the movie Scarface.

 

[elvenwear]

On page 77 we have this quote

UAP did not stop us from making the leap from atomic to nuclear weapons.

 

[JMartJr]

I'll assume he was trying to say ""the leap from fission to fusion weapons."

If that is correct, then it should be noted that the list of things that did not stop us from making that leap includes everything, since we in fact did it.

 

[jdog]

I'll assume he was trying to say ""the leap from fission to fusion weapons."

If that is correct, then it should be noted that the list of things that did not stop us from making that leap includes everything, since we in fact did it.

On that note, it's not like anyone's been setting off fusion bombs lately, or any nuclear weapons. The closest is North Korea, which last did a "small" thermonuclear detonation underground in 2017.

(There is a robust International Monitoring System (IMS) under the Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty (CTBT) which monitors the globe for nuclear explosions, which produce very distinct seismic and radionucleide signatures.)

 

[elvenwear]

I'll assume he was trying to say ""the leap from fission to fusion weapons."

Exactly. It indicates a real lack of knowledge of our existing understanding of physics, or at the least a lack of precision in his writing. How he can be an expert on speculative physics without having a grounding in physics we already understand, I do not know.

On that note, it's not like anyone's been setting off fusion bombs lately, or any nuclear weapons. The closest is North Korea, which last did a "small" thermonuclear detonation underground in 2017.

America has been getting around this with experiments at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, According to Scientific American, The National Ignition Facility, which was working on fusion experiments, was also testing of nuclear weapons. The article is here. They must have fooled the aliens.

 

[Mick West]

Please avoid mockery. We can just point out where people got things wrong or where they misunderstood things. But mocking does not help.

 

[Mendel]

Reminder:

Mick has made a new thread on the book, starting from this video (with transcript), at https://www.metabunk.org/threads/errors-in-luis-elizondos-ufo-book-imminent.13613/ .

 

[Mendel]

Source: https://x.com/MiddleOfMayhem/status/1830270281669366247

It seems Elizondo accidentally claimed in the book that he worked for AAWSAP. The Coast-to-Coast podcast is at https://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2024-08-25-show/ ; unfortunately, it's 4 hours long. Maybe @sgreenstreet can provide an approximate time stamp?

Going back to what I originally wrote:

From the AARO Historical Report:

"AATIP was never an official DoD program."

John Greenewald wrote back in 2022 on how Steven Greenstreet struggled with contradictory information out of the Pentagon. https://www.theblackvault.com/docum...e-with-contradictory-pentagon-ufo-statements/

One statement was unambiguous:

This tallies with the FOIA information on AATIP we discussed above: it was the DIA project that Lacatski had a budget for as AAWSAP, but called AATIP, presumably so people couldn't easily cut off his funding once they knew what he was doing.

See https://www.metabunk.org/threads/the-origins-of-aawsap.12484/ and compare:

Susan Gough describes DIA's "AATIP" here. Elizondo allegedly "transitioned" AATIP to the DoD (his own office), but that was never official. This was presumably designed to confuse people who questioned what he was doing.

In Greenewald's FOIA file, downloadable at the bottom of his article, there's an email from Greenstreet saying this:

It's my opinion that all of this "documentation" goes back to Elizondo's own claims, including the late Senator Harry Reid's letter:

Maybe I'm being slow on the uptake, but I'm guessing that it's not a coincidence that the AATIP funding of $22 million mentioned here is the same amount as the payment ($22 million, obviously) reportedly given to Rob Bigelow's Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies by the United States Defense Intelligence Agency in 2008?

The DIA project had the budget.

But wait, there's more:

In re above just the issue point was more his claim about him getting salaried by NSA for some unknown reason, when going into a program ran and operated through the DIA.

@Tezcatlipoca, I assume this is referring to AATIP when it was at the DIA? Could you please post the relevant book excerpt?

I think this means that Elizondo might have worked there, but the DIA would have no record of employment because the NSA was paying Elizondo's salary? (if what he writes is true. Trusting Elizondo is a bit of a dicy proposition.)

I'm quite confused by all this. I empathize with the Pentagon spokespeople trying to make sense of this mess.

 

[Tezcatlipoca]

@Tezcatlipoca, I assume this is referring to AATIP when it was at the DIA? Could you please post the relevant book excerpt?

I think this means that Elizondo might have worked there, but the DIA would have no record of employment because the NSA was paying Elizondo's salary? (if what he writes is true. Trusting Elizondo is a bit of a dicy proposition.)

I'm quite confused by all this. I empathize with the Pentagon spokespeople trying to make sense of this mess.

Let me re-go through my screens and see if I grabbed one of that specific part, it's in near the middle of the second chapter if I recall, was before he talked about meeting Stratton and being introduced to AAWSAP. Will edit this comment with it if I grabbed one.

And not necessarily, Elizondo just randomly throws the claim there. To frame this a bit, some important things to understand-
The DoD has a thing called the Defense Civilian Intelligence Personnel System (DCIPS) which basically acts as human resources for DoD intelligence functions making use of "civilian" employees, this may sound a bit confusing since it's DoD going to save the wall there but it's not necessarily referencing civilian as in you or I.

You are not necessarily assigned to DCIPS, you are assigned somewhere else. The timeline in that part of the book is a tidbit choppy, but he was either employed with the OUSD(I&S) or with the Department of the Army through MICEP. In either of these cases, he is definitively not employed by the NSA, and would not be being paid by the NSA. Elizondo was never an employee with the DIA either, and as far as I know, never served a JDA with either the DIA or NSA.
Elizondo himself there doesn't state it was for any security reason or anything, I don't remember the quote word for word either but he basically said he didn't know why that was the case either, and that, he was just being pay-stubbed by NSA randomly.

That brings the other relevant thing, which is Joint Duty Assignments. Within DCIPS, you can serve Joint Duty Assignments to agencies outside of the one you are employed by. I may be incorrect here, but as far as I am aware, your payroll would still be the exact same here. From my understanding even during his claimed/now unclaimed period with the actual AAWSAP, he was not serving a JDA, but rather would've been acting as a non-JDA "representative". With that said, that's mostly resting on his own statements, which are equally choppy and contradictory - for example he claims he was onboarded to lead their CI and Security, but yet, was given investigative responsibilities about UAP itself and did, apparently, nothing actually related to CI and Security according to literally everyone who does state he was involved or affiliated with the actual AAWSAP.

 

[Mendel]

The timeline in that part of the book is a tidbit choppy, but he was either employed with the OUSD(I&S) or with the Department of the Army through MICEP. In either of these cases, he is definitively not employed by the NSA, and would not be being paid by the NSA. Elizondo was never an employee with the DIA either, and as far as I know, never served a JDA with either the DIA or NSA.

The Pentagon is on the record saying that while Elizondo was in OUSD(I), he was "neither assigned nor detailed to DIA" and that AATIP was a DIA project. The emails suggest that this information originated with OUSD(I).

This obviously means that post-DIA AATIP was entirely unofficial.

But it's unclear what Elizondo did at the DIA, and who paid him during that time, and what job he was supposed to be doing for that salary. You seem to think it wasn't the NSA.

DCIPS should know, right? I wonder what they'd say where Elizondo was assigned 2007-2012.

 

[Tezcatlipoca]

The Pentagon is on the record saying that while Elizondo was in OUSD(I), he was "neither assigned nor detailed to DIA" and that AATIP was a DIA project. The emails suggest that this information originated with OUSD(I).

This obviously means that post-DIA AATIP was entirely unofficial.

But it's unclear what Elizondo did at the DIA, and who paid him during that time, and what job he was supposed to be doing for that salary. You seem to think it wasn't the NSA.

DCIPS should know, right? I wonder what they'd say where Elizondo was assigned 2007-2012.

Hey since this got replied too gonna say here instead of editing the other convo. I didn't grab a screen of that specific part unfortunately just made a quick note. If you have a copy I can help narrow the page, I won't be purchasing a copy myself so may be a bit before I can source that part with a screenshot.

Also tiny note, employed by, assigned, and detailed have different operative uses. They're very literal in use though assigned vs detailed can seem a bit muddy perceptively. So for example, theoretically, if Elizondo was employed by the DIA, the Pentagon would be correct in asserting that he was not assigned nor detailed to DIA since he was not an assignee nor working through any detailing (only during that employed by period).
That specific statement from the Pentagon only reinforces that he was OUSD(I&S) at the later date of relevancy to his pet "AATIP".

1) Spot on. The only tiny issue we have is the timeline, Elizondo may not have been working at OUSD(I&S) at that specific time. If this was not the case, he still would not have been employed by DIA or NSA, per all of his statements, it's highly likely he would've been working for the Department of the Army technically through their own HR system similar to DCIPS called MICECP (Military Intelligence Civilian Excepted Career Program). This part is really hard to nail down though because of his contradictory timelines.
With that said, Elizondo's pet "AATIP" did entirely take place while he was employed by the OUSD(I&S) as the Director / National Programs Special Management Staff. This is why a lot of the emails and references to his actual job in that time, reference this. We do know, this was not his assignment at the time of the real AAWSAP/AATIP, but we do not know if he was employed by OUSD(I&S) within that timeframe.

2&3) So, during this around 2008-2012/13 period (we dont have an exact timing here from Elizondo so using actual rough AAWSAP dates, obv not 1-1 reflective of Elizondos date-specific claimed involvement). If Elizondo did actually partake to any extent in the real AAWSAP, one of the other varying terms may come into play (assignee vs detailee etc) referencing his involvement with that program since he was not employed by the DIA. But yeah I don't think the NSA paystub claim makes any sense, there's no correlating reasons even why that may happen, and Elizondo himself admits he does not know and never was able to find out why.

4) Yes, them and MICECP would be able to access that information. Whether or not it can be FOIA'd I'm entirely unsure, that gets into things that generally are not FOIA'able but you can make some hedge claims that might work, eg public interest due to his ardent connection to the claimed job which is actively being used to influence congressional decision making and within a concerted media effort to message to the wider public. You can make a relatively strong public interest case there but internal policy might say nada still since its a grey area in actual defined legal terms.

 

[NorCal Dave]

I don't know who is right, Reid/DIA/Elizondo or Knapp/Lacatski/Kelleher/Kirkpatrick, about which project got/controlled/spent a tiny $22M budget spread over multiple years.To be honest, I don't care. No matter which of those characters/activities was in control of the cash, they apparently executed the program legally within the context of Reid's earmark. And arguably most importantly, at least from Reid's perspective, his buddy Bigelow got his pork. Regardless of who sent the cash out West and under what programmatic moniker, I would have a difficult time accepting whatever came from it was value-added to the tax paying American public.

As @Mendel and @MonkeeSage alluded to above, all the funding Reid provided went to the DoD's DIA's DWO (Defense Warning Office) and the solicitation for the "small business set a side"(?) was supposedly worded in such a way that only Lacatski, at the DWO, would administer the contract (bold by me):

…he used Congressional interest from bipartisan Senate leadership and the assistance of two DIA Directors to obtain multiple years of funding directed to the DIA Directorate of Analysis, specifically DWO. Lacatski then developed the strategic guidance and architecture for a new contractor support effort, and with the concurrence of the DIA Directorate Directorate of Finance, wrote a small-business set-aside solicitation (HHM402-08-R-0211) using the then-new statement-of-objectives format. It was issued 18 August 2008 on the Federal Business Opportunities website, with a proposal due date of 10 September 2008. On 22 September 2008, a contract (HHM402-08-C-0072) was awarded to the sole bidder, Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies (BAASS), for an initial duration of two years.

As shown in HHM402-08-R-0211, Lacatski placed the following statement of objectives for the new Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Applications Program (AAWSAP) into the solicitation. The name of the program was specifically chosen to assist in the routing of new congressional money to DWO. This is a crucial point because the use of any other name, for example AATIP, would have been problematic, as the routing of the money would not have gone to DWO.

pg. 19-20 Kelleher, Colm A. Lacastski, James, Knapp, George.. Skinwalkers at the Pentagon: An Insiders' Account of the Secret Government UFO Program. RTMA, LLC. Kindle Edition.

Whatever other weird stuff is in the Knapp/Lacatski book, the parts about how the program was developed and RFP was solicited seems to be backed up by FOIA documents. The book pretty much admits that AASWAP was designed so that only Bigelow would know how to respond to the vague RFP, he would be the sole bidder and only Lacatski would know what the money was being spent on.

AATIP was a completely made-up acronym used to hide AASWAP when asking for SAP status. There is no evidence in any of the FOIA material about AAWSAP that Elizondo had anything to do with it. He would later claim that he took over AAWSAP from Lacatski and chose to focus on one of the sub-programs (for lack of a better phrase?) called AATIP. Something he seems to have changed his mind on now according to Mendal's post above. But again, there is no evidence that anything called AATIP was associated with AAWSAP, aside from the letter requesting SAP status.

And it should be noted that Elizondo only made this claim after AAWSAP became public, and Lue had made a career out of being the head of the non-existent AATIP.

On a side note, it appears that the person Johnathan Axelrod in the Knapp/Lacatski book did work at DIA, maybe with Lacatski and did visit Skinwalker Ranch. Axelrod is almost certainly Jay Stratton a Navel Intel guy that worked with Elizondo and whatever they did that passed for AATIP. I've yet to read the book, but I'd speculate Stratton knew of the SAP request letter that used the AATIP nonsense name. When AAWSAP lost funding and Lacatski eventually retired, Elizondo and Stratton started up their side hustle looking for UFOs. AATIP was the perfect name as it was already on official documents claiming it needed to have SAP status and spoke of Advanced Threats. The 2 names have been hopelessly entangled ever sense.

 

[MonkeeSage]

There are apparently different versions of the attachment to Harry Reid's SAP request letter with different redactions of the preliminary Bigoted Access List for the proposed SAP.

In the document received by Greenwald via FOIA, all government employees are redacted below number 4, Robert T. Herbert, and all contractors are redacted.

https://documents2.theblackvault.co...090624_Reid_to_DEPSECDEF_ref_AAITP_in_SAP.pdf

In another version uploaded to wikipedia, originally released by George Knapp, all government employees are redacted below number 3, Daniel Inouye, except for 10, Luis Elizondo, and all contractors are redacted except for 3, Hal Puthoff.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/ind...eid,_then_US_Senate_Majority_Leader,_2009.pdf

The one on wikipedia is stated to be from here: https://www.8newsnow.com/news/exclu...nts-related-to-pentagon-ufo-study/1324250087/

If the wikipedia version of the document is trustworthy, it shows there was some kind of connection between Elizondo and AAWSAP, but really doesn't tell us any more than that. We already knew he was somehow related to AAWSAP from his mentions in Skinwalkers at the Pentagon, where Stratton was bringing him to dinners and he was telling them about his alleged psychic abilities, and kept in touch with Stratton (page 63, PDF edition).

Further down the dinner table sat Luis Elizondo, who worked collaboratively with Axelrod and was at the office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence (USDI). Elizondo looked dapper with jet black hair and was considered a brilliant Special Agent and analyst with a lot of expertise on counterintelligence investigations. Little did anyone at that dinner table realize that nine years later Lue Elizondo would become a media star and a household name in global UAP investigations.

As he enjoyed his steak tartare, Elizondo regaled those around him with some war stories, including one hair-raising exploit about how his advanced intuition and remote viewing capabilities had saved his life and the life of his men while on a covert combat mission in war-torn Afghanistan. Lue was one of that rare breed, an astute, detail-oriented analyst with an open mind. After that dinner meeting and the briefing the following day, he kept in close touch with Jonathan Axelrod as the project progressed.

Steven Greenstreet also recently implied on a twitter space that he has seen a further unredacted version of the SAP request document that listed James Lacatski and Jay Stratton as names above Elizondo on the list, and he hopes to report on it soon. I am talking that as hearsay until he does actually report on it or release that version, but it fits what information we already have.

Taking the wikipedia version of the document as authentic, we at best have further confirmation of a connection between Elizondo and AAWSAP. What is does not provide is confirmation that Elizondo ever had any officially assigned duties with the actual DIA program AAWSAP, aka AATIP, or that it was ever actually a classified program.

 

[John J.]

Edited to add: When I posted this, I saw @MonkeeSage made the above post while I was typing; I refer to some of the same stuff.

...Lue had made a career out of being the head of the non-existent AATIP.

I'm getting confused. I'm much less familiar with the whole AASWAP/ AATIP than many of you guys (and what little I do know is largely down to your work and discussions here) but doesn't the January 2018 response from Christine Kapnisi, head of DIA's Congressional Relations Division, to John McCain and Jack Reed, which listed the (in)famous 38 commissioned papers,
implicitly acknowledge the existence of AATIP as a program recognised by the Defense Intelligence Agency?

(PDF of the full reply attached below as "AATIP-list").

there is no evidence that anything called AATIP was associated with AAWSAP, aside from the letter requesting SAP status.

Is that the 24 June 2009 letter from (the late) Senator Harry Reid to the Deputy Secretary of Defense, William Lynn III?
(PDF attached below, "Harry Reid to...").

It's an interesting letter. It's unfortunate we can't ask Harry Reid about it.

Since the Advanced Aerospace Threat and Identification Program (AATIP) and study were first commissioned. much progress has been made with the identification of several highly sensitive, unconventional aerospace related findings...
...I require your assistance in establishing a Restricted Special-Access-Program (SAP) with a Bigoted Access List for specific portions of the AATIP.

In order to support this national effort, a small but highly specialized cadre of Department of Defense (DoD) and private sector individuals are necessary. These individuals must be specialized in the areas of advanced sciences, sensors, intelligence/counterintelligence, and advanced aerospace engineering.

...Undue attention by government, or private sector entities, not involved in AATIP or any international interest will directly or indirectly interfere with the daily AATIP mission and perhaps threaten the overall success of the program.

-My emphasis; the phrase "Undue attention by government" gives me some concern. In a democracy it isn't for others to determine what should be of interest to the elected executive excepting (e.g.) where this might undermine the privacy of private individuals as protected in law.

It contrasts with Reid's attitude to programs which he doesn't have a direct hand in,

Former Senator Reid stated in reference to the successor program [UAPTF], "It is extremely important that information about the discovery of physical materials or retrieved craft come out."

Wikipedia, Advanced Aerospace Threat and Identification Program, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Aerospace_Threat_Identification_Program

In passing, reading the full letter it's clear that Senator Reid had considerable faith in the program's findings and future potential.

Luis Elizondo would be aware of this letter,

Maybe in Reid's call for "...intelligence/counterintelligence" staff Elizondo saw an opportunity. Or perhaps someone requesting that Reid write this letter, or, advising him, already had Elizondo in mind. Supposition I guess.

Writing in The Intercept, 01 June 2019, Keith Kloor quotes Pentagon spokesman Christopher Sherwood:

Mr. Elizondo had no responsibilities with regard to the AATIP program while he worked in OUSDI [the Office of Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence], up until the time he resigned effective 10/4/2017."

Kloor also quotes "To The Stars" PR representative Kari DeLonge (a relative of founder Tom DeLonge?) who in a letter to UFO researcher John Greenewalde said

"The program was initially run out of [the Defense Intelligence Agency] but when Lue took it over in 2010 as Director, he ran it out of the Office for the Secretary of Defense (OSD) under the Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence (USDI). Hope that clarifies."

Kloor summarises

There is no discernible evidence that Luis Elizondo ever worked for a government UFO program, much less led one.

The Intercept, "The Media Loves This UFO Expert Who Says He Worked For An Obscure Pentagon Program. Did He?", Keith Kloor, 01 June 2019 https://theintercept.com/2019/06/01/ufo-unidentified-history-channel-luis-elizondo-pentagon/

-Maybe this is all old hat, apologies if so.

Just an observation, Elizondo might have professional experience of generating confusing narratives and cover stories if he worked in counterintelligence.

I am surprised how frequently Mr Elizondo referred to his intelligence role in the past; it might be something to be proud of but he attends interviews and publishes under his real name (AFAIK) and is happy to have his picture taken.
It's a free country of course, and he should do as he feels fit, but he doesn't seem to have much of a regard for 'Persec', personal security.

 

[Mendel]

I'm getting confused. I'm much less familiar with the whole AASWAP/ AATIP than many of you guys (and what little I do know is largely down to your work and discussions here) but doesn't the January 2018 response from Christine Kapnisi, head of DIA's Congressional Relations Division, to John McCain and Jack Reed, which listed the (in)famous 38 commissioned papers,
implicitly acknowledge the existence of AATIP as a program recognised by the Defense Intelligence Agency?

(PDF of the full reply attached below as "AATIP-list").

We know the DIA acknowledges AATIP. They have a section in their FOIA Reading Room called "Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program". See https://www.dia.mil/FOIA/FOIA-Electronic-Reading-Room/ .

But we don't know why.

We know that AAWSAP was funded with $22 billion, and that this money ended up paying for the DIRD papers commissioned via EarthTech, for "research" at Skinwalker Ranch, and a bit even went to MUFON so they'd have a database. Basically, AAWSAP paid for the AATIP activities at the DIA, 2007-2012. (I'm a bit confused as to what Lacatski's and Stratton's roles were.)

What we do not know is how AATIP was instituted. Did Jay Stratton simply announce its existence one day? Where is the paperwork? How did the AAWSAP money get assigned to AATIP?
It feels like AATIP was run like one of these super secret programs that even obscure their funding, but AATIP wasn't actually a SAP.
It was the kind of program David Grusch wishes he was whistleblowing about, except it was run by the (now!) "disclosure" people themselves.

What we do know is that the DoD AATIP, with Elizondo as head, 2012-2017, did not have a budget, and its claim to officialdom consists of "Elizondo and Reid say so".

 

[NorCal Dave]

I'm getting confused. I'm much less familiar with the whole AASWAP/ AATIP than many of you guys (and what little I do know is largely down to your work and discussions here) but doesn't the January 2018 response from Christine Kapnisi, head of DIA's Congressional Relations Division, to John McCain and Jack Reed, which listed the (in)famous 38 commissioned papers,
implicitly acknowledge the existence of AATIP as a program recognised by the Defense Intelligence Agency?

Indeed! It's confusing as hell.

I'll have to find the source again, but it was EarthTech that subcontracted to Bigelow's BAASS to produce the 38 DIRD papers. EarthTech is Hal Puthoff's Texas based company and some of the 38 papers were written by him as well as his EarthTech buddy Eric Davis and Davis and Puthoff's old UFO buddy, Kit Green. It is my understanding that the rest of the papers were procured by EarthTech from various authors and then provided to BAASS.

BAASS then provided the 38 papers to AAWSAP, and this would have fulfilled the basic requirements of the RFP. The RFP (Request For Proposal) from AAWSAP just asked for research papers on various future technological possibilities, that was it. There is nothing in the original RFP about UFOs, paranormal activities or Skinwalker Ranch. Only Bigelow understood what the RFP was really asking for above and beyond the papers.

It's unclear if these papers were ever supposed to be some sort of real brainstorming ideas about possible future technology, just a cover for what AAWSAP was really all about or a way for Bigelow loyalists like Puthoof and Davis to get back to the public trough and collect taxpayer money for their decidedly speculative ideas. Probably a combination of all three.

That being said, when one looks at the various headers provided by @MonkeeSage from the Ried letter requesting SAP status, we see "BAASS" and "Dr. Hal Puthoff" under the contractor list and the "Unclassified Nickname" as AATIP:

So, I suspect that maybe Reid and Lacatski's ruse worked. This letter made it look like whatever BAASS and Puthoff were doing, like providing the 38 DIRD papers, was being done for AATIP and others in the DIA just went along with it. There was a program called AATIP that contracted for DIRD papers, so don't go looking for a program called AAWSAP that was funneling tax money to Bigelow to study weird shit on his private ranch.

Just a guess.

 

[Mendel]

Basically, AAWSAP paid for the AATIP activities at the DIA, 2007-2012.

2008-2010, 2007 is too early, and 2012 is too late. AARO put the start as 2009, which is incidentally when Elizondo came on the project.

All sources below from https://www.dia.mil/FOIA/FOIA-Electronic-Reading-Room/ , AATIP section.

AAWSAP is the contract awarded to Bigelow.

SOW Aerospace.pdf

DI Brief 2008 16 Dec.pdf

DR_Reid Mtg Nov09.pdf

the Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Application Program contract, referred to by Senator Reid as AATIP

091117 - Final Packet Presented to DepSecDef.pdf

The AAITP that SEN Reid refers to is officially the Advanced Aerospace Weapon Systems Application Program (AAWSAP) contract managed by DIA.

I now believe that AAWSAP refers to the BAASS/Bigelow contract, and the activities paid under it, including the DIRDs and the Skinwalker Ranch "research".

AATIP stood for the Pentagon-internal activity of the people managing the BAASS contract for the DIA. The earliest mention I could find is in a letter from Harry Reid of June 2009 ( 20090624 Reid to DEPSECDEF ref AAITP in SAP.pdf ).

As such, AATIP was never an official program. This is reflected by these quotes from "Imminent":

This was another layer of protection, to hide the true mission of the overall effort. Later, I would do the same thing in order to keep AATIP viable.

At the same time, Jay, myself, and a handful of government civilians and contractors would continue to run AATIP under the proverbial radar. If I did it this way, I knew no one in DoD would have access to the program, unless I specifically allowed it. If we were clever, I could "dual-use" my existing funding to investigate UAP. That means that if I sent out a FLIR video to be analyzed, I could use the same budget line to analyze whether the object in the video was a Russian MiG-25 aircraft—or a UAP.

In classic Pentagon style, everyone would fit their AATIP work into their already packed government workloads, and we would have to be very clever with the funding.

Now I don't know much about government programs, but this does not look official to me.

[Edited to reflect the 2010 DIA end date.]

 

[Mendel]

Another opinion:

Article:

The Acquisition Support Division (DWO-3) of the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) had overall responsibility for the AAWSAP project - the team within DWO-3 that looked after this and similar reporting may have been nicknamed "AATIP". This is probably the main source of confusion.

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/10ic7s5/comment/j5m8vil/

 

[Mendel]

From https://www.theblackvault.com/docum...sap-aatip-and-post-2017-ufo-timeline-project/ , which is a great overview of the many contradictory accounts:

Source: Dr. Hal Puthoff speech to the SSE/IRVA Conference, Las Vegas, 8 June 2018. Full transcript available at Paradigm Research Group. The relevant portion:

"People have had trouble trying to get documents out of the Pentagon by saying they want all documents on AATIP, and they have a hard time because that wasn't the actual name of the program. "Advanced Aerospace Weapons Systems Application Program" is the actual name of the program. But AATIP was the nickname it went by.

Source: Mr. Luis Elizondo, 2018 International UFO Congress Interview, February 2018. Specific excerpt from this interview:

"At that point it became apparent to me why they were asking me the questions they were asking me, so in 2008 I was asked to come on board. I did and I worked for the former program manager at the time, and in 2010 upon his departure, I was asked to take over the program formally as the director."

Elizondo neglects to relate that the DIA shut the program down in 2010. That was Lacatski's "departure" from AATIP.

"26 of 38 reports were delivered in FY 2009; the balance in FY 2010. That's when the project ended at DIA. I have no additional information about what happened after the contract was fulfilled after DIA received 38 reports that covered the 12 research areas requested."

Source: Email exchange between DIA and John Greenewald, Jr. Source Email.

 

[Mendel]

091117 - Final Packet Presented to DepSecDef.pdf

The AAITP that SEN Reid refers to is officially the Advanced Aerospace Weapon Systems Application Program (AAWSAP) contract managed by DIA.

There's a note on this in Skinwalkers at the Pentagon by Dr. James Lacatski, Colum Kelleher and George Knapp. On page 91, it says:

A new unclassified nickname, the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program (AATIP), was created for use within the unclassified letter because it was decided for security reasons not to use the AAWSAP acronym.

This fits with what I know.

Reid's June 24, 2009 letter was the debut of "AATIP".

(Thanks to @NorCalDave, who reported on the book at https://www.metabunk.org/threads/the-origins-of-aawsap.12484/ .)

 

[NorCal Dave]

AATIP stood for the Pentagon-internal activity of the people managing the BAASS contract for the DIA. The earliest mention I could find is in a letter from Harry Reid of June 2009 ( 20090624 Reid to DEPSECDEF ref AAITP in SAP.pdf )

I would only disagree with you a bit here, giving what's currently available. As far as I can tell, Lacatski was the only one managing the contract to BAASS, and Lacatski more or less created AAWSAP. Or at least he was the one that knew what BAASS was doing with the money. I don't know exactly how these things are handled in government, but Lacatski is the point man and Lacatski has never claimed to have been part of AATIP. There was no AATIP, it's just a made-up nick name for AAWSAP.

As you pointed out, the term AATIP only surfaces in Ried's letter after AAWSAP was up and running. According to the Lacatski/Knapp book, they sought SAP status for AAWSAP because it was so successful (you gotta love phrases like "investigative horsepower"):

…the breadth and the scope of the investigative horsepower of the fledgling organization had astonished the senior politician. Given what he had just heard from Bigelow, Reid was concerned that BAASS would get too high a profile at DoD in the near future and that the AAWSAP contract would be exposed and essentially unprotected from potential opponents at DoD.

I think it's accurate that they were worried it might attract unwanted attention, but not because of its "investigative horsepower". Reid didn't want people in the DoD/DIA to know about AAWSAP, so they coined the term AATIP when writing the letter for SAP status and, in my opinion, it just stuck. According to the letter, whatever the DWO (Lacatski) was doing with BAASS was called AATIP.

I'll have to read the Elizondo book now to see if he ever states how he and Stratton decided to use AATIP for their side gig. Maybe because it seemed official, as it was appearing on documents, but wasn't AAWSAP with the associated baggage?

I don't know if its silly or disturbing or a bit of both, but it does appear that Reid and Lacatski's subterfuge worked a bit. Others in the DoD/DIA thought there was a program called AATIP when there wasn't, and they were unaware of AAWSAP, as intended.

 

[Mendel]

I don't know if its silly or disturbing or a bit of both, but it does appear that Reid and Lacatski's subterfuge worked a bit. Others in the DoD/DIA thought there was a program called AATIP when there wasn't, and they were unaware of AAWSAP, as intended.

You don't want to read the Wikipedia entry on AATIP.

 

[Tezcatlipoca]

Indeed! It's confusing as hell.

I'll have to find the source again, but it was EarthTech that subcontracted to Bigelow's BAASS to produce the 38 DIRD papers. EarthTech is Hal Puthoff's Texas based company and some of the 38 papers were written by him as well as his EarthTech buddy Eric Davis and Davis and Puthoff's old UFO buddy, Kit Green. It is my understanding that the rest of the papers were procured by EarthTech from various authors and then provided to BAASS.

BAASS then provided the 38 papers to AAWSAP, and this would have fulfilled the basic requirements of the RFP. The RFP (Request For Proposal) from AAWSAP just asked for research papers on various future technological possibilities, that was it. There is nothing in the original RFP about UFOs, paranormal activities or Skinwalker Ranch. Only Bigelow understood what the RFP was really asking for above and beyond the papers.

It's unclear if these papers were ever supposed to be some sort of real brainstorming ideas about possible future technology, just a cover for what AAWSAP was really all about or a way for Bigelow loyalists like Puthoof and Davis to get back to the public trough and collect taxpayer money for their decidedly speculative ideas. Probably a combination of all three.

That being said, when one looks at the various headers provided by @MonkeeSage from the Ried letter requesting SAP status, we see "BAASS" and "Dr. Hal Puthoff" under the contractor list and the "Unclassified Nickname" as AATIP:

View attachment 71302View attachment 71303

So, I suspect that maybe Reid and Lacatski's ruse worked. This letter made it look like whatever BAASS and Puthoff were doing, like providing the 38 DIRD papers, was being done for AATIP and others in the DIA just went along with it. There was a program called AATIP that contracted for DIRD papers, so don't go looking for a program called AAWSAP that was funneling tax money to Bigelow to study weird shit on his private ranch.

Just a guess.

So a major note on this. We have had the contradictory back and forth of what "AATIP" may have been - I do think we got some choppy legitimate reporting that now appears disconnected since we learned about it years apart.

I think, from everything we have, we know at the least, "AATIP" was proposed as a SAP name. We also have claims from others, including Elizondo, that the SAP "AATIP" for AAWSAP was either - simply a codename, OR specifically a codename for parts of AAWSAP dealing more with the aerospace and potential foreign threat context. These overlapping claims for AAWSAPs "AATIP" do not necessarily contradict eachother, but could easily fit together in just that, the old references to it being simply a codename for AAWSAP could've been lighter references that lacked detailing specifically defining it as a codename covering a specific element of AAWSAP, dealing with specific matters.
If this is true, and perhaps one of the folks with the program management exposure here can chime in - but this very well could have ended up formulated as a "sub-project" or so under AAWSAP, where it was "under" it but acting somewhat distinctly still from the rest of AAWSAP. Especially since AAWSAP-"AATIP" would be acting as a SAP wherein the broader AAWSAP wouldn't.

This does not reflect the later "AATIP" - I think with everything presented its still pretty evident Elizondo's run off "AATIP" was an informal pet project.