Preview of Luis Elizondo's UFO book: "Imminent"
- Thread starter Mick West
- Start date
I have said the same thing before multiple times on this site! The people here are generally so kind in their criticisms while I'm doing my best to stop the urge to go off on unfriendly tangents
(but this site has actually helped me with approaching others more cordially)Don't forget werewolves and dino-beavers!
Ann K
Senior Member.
I need to develop more patience. I can accept an "I know what I saw" stubbornness in very small doses, but grind my teeth when members give honest, reasoned explanations only to have a person dismiss them out of hand with an alacrity that suggests they didn't bother to read the explanation at all, let alone digest the information thoughtfully.
Maybe the truth behind the Gimbal is that the UFO switched from white to black because the aliens turned on the vacuum bubble and not because the pilots changed from white-hot to black-hot.
Resistor
New Member
This paragraph describes an outcome of an assessment from individuals that did NOT have the fundamental knowledge to understand the operational characteristics, features and performance limitations of the US Navy weapon targeting platform that produced the video. Mr. Tipton may be an expert in US Army ISR Platforms, BUT this is a US Navy weapons system. The gimbal target rotation was explained by both Mick and the weapon system engineer that was interviewed to be an artifact of the seeker head rotation. Elizondo should have reached out to this group - https://www.nre.navy.mil/organizati...ivision-352/advanced-capabilities-integration and NOT rely on his US Army SME, CIA and US Navy reps in the meeting as the sole sources for truth. A possibility exists that the US Navy rep used his contacts to get an assessment which led to an email to Rear Admiral Tim Gallaudet, which is covered here - https://www.metabunk.org/threads/ma...lready-made-similar-claims.13110/#post-297896 An alternate theory is that Elizondo did try to reach out to US Navy weapon system SME's and they did not reply, or provided him with their assessment of the video, which he ignored.
Has anyone from this group contacted Elizondo, Melton to let them know about the science based assessments of the three videos they claim to be UAP's?
Resistor
New Member
I interpreted the paragraph as the meeting was in a location like a SCIF with all the attendees having the proper level of clearance, readins and a need to know to view that video. The originating classification authority of the video would be responsible for the classification of the video. https://news.clearancejobs.com/2022/03/03/what-does-ts-sci-actually-mean-and-how-do-i-get-the-job/ and https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/issuances/dodm/510521m_vol1.pdf
Resistor
New Member
There are some other procedural issues mentioned also in the book. For example;So, going to have to repackage it. Read the full preview over and I have about 8 pages of notes. This is just some heavier points I noticed. My full post will have more sourcing screens and breakdowns.
To narrow for this comment before the breakdown, one thing I would really like to note, is that in the introductory chapter by Mellon, he also, admits to the influence campaign that was planned before any of these guys ever resigned. So now we have confirmation from Elizondo, Stratton, and Mellon, that their claims all these years about the *why* of everything was deceptive. Further than that, all 3 have also admitted to running a concerted influence campaign directed towards DoD leadership, Congress, and "the American public".
View attachment 70489
Interestingly, right after explaining this, Mellon inserts-
View attachment 70490
This does not make a whole lot of sense sequentially. He just reasoned why in the above paragraphs - they did it. This reeks of an attempt to try and pull some psych tricks with the writing, and is a major red flag for me with the rest of the books potential contents & these guys prior careers touching on relevant matters.
Mellon spends a bit talking intelligence issues ala surrounding Iraq and other activities. The most ironic part being he was DASD/I when all this happened, which, made him the functional manager of responsibility for these issues he talks about
In an interesting bust to my prior hypothesis about their being 2 co-interactive networks (legacy/aviary & modern), Elizondo gives a lot of details about meeting guys like Puthoff in the late 90s/early 2000s, and, as we now know, Elizondo has been responsible for a lot of the "modern" network surfacing. This, actually, would raise the hypothesis that this is actually all one network and Elizondo is simply a critical node extending interaction between "new" members of the network (ala Grusch, Nell, etc) and old legacy members (Puthoff, Kit Green, etc pre-2000s).
Elizondo in Chapter 3 speaks about the Stargate program very interestingly. According to Elizondo, he was brought into the Stargate program in its final years. How this happened though is very interesting. While actively serving in the Army, he just, ghosted from service into "Gregs" pet project (it was not a formal continuance with Congressional funding or a recognized departmental activity, rather, it was basically Greg doing a Stargate version of Elizondos later fake-"AATIP"). He then claims at the end of this, he immediately went back into the Army in normal assignments.
AKA, he went AWOL basically, and just showed back up to work fine and dandy. Not sure how that one works, pretty sure there's some bullshittery going on there. The way this was explained really confused me procedurally, there could be an explainer but Elizondo sequenced it very weird in the book.
He leaves a very confusing timeline of events too that seemingly contradict each other in where he was assigned and what roles he had when where, although, for my full post, I am going to make a timeline here to parse it out for sureties.
There are some other procedural issues mentioned also in the book. For example;
A) Elizondo claims that while a DCIPS employee, NSA was paying him. This makes no sense, DCIPS has its own funding. You can be assigned to a DCIPS function from another agency, but you would be working/contracting for that other agency, and the paperwork you yourself sign would make that very clear.
B) He also later notes he was an "intelligence operations officer" while a DCIPS employee. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but "intelligence operations officer" I've only ever seen for actual enlisted/officer roles, not any sort of civilian staff which would use the Intelligence Operations Specialist continuum (which we know Elizondo was on). He also mentions reaching GS-15 by this point. This raises an issue as, we know later on, he was a Supervisory Intelligence Operations Specialist as D/NPSMS, nearly a decade after the point of reference he made, and *was not a GS-15*, and I've only seen SIOS max out at 14 granted not impossible to hit 15.
C) When meeting with Stratton and his assistant, fellow DoD employees, in a DoD office building, meeting about DoD matters - are wearing blue badges. I may be incorrect, but the blue/green badging only happens with independent IC functions, the DoD has their own internal coloring system for this matter. Now, if you were part of a DoD IC program and went over to CIA HQ, yah you'd get one. I don't think this makes a lot of sense entirely being DoD internal though. I could be incorrect about the blue/green carding working this way, but I've only ever seen it used in independent IC bodies & their locations. For internal-DoD stuff I've seen other colors like orange badges, but, could have a very specific meaning other than that, unsure.
And just for a funny note, he gives a story about him meeting Stratton that 100% sounds like it was out of a fiction book. Stratton, of course, brought his assistant. The smoking hot intel chic! Not that we don't have baddies in the IC but ensuing parts make it seem like the run of the mil hot badass chick side character insert. Before hunting UFOs she was slaying it in combat postings instead of traditional collection tours. Tad bit unlikely but not impossible.
The ensuing 3 pages explains their meeting as basically one giant spooky talk session. In my experiences, IC types absolutely fucking hate talking like this, no one does it. I interview guys that've done very sensitive stuff all the time, and I am well aware there are things they cannot speak about it, so when I started interviewing folks years ago, I would try to talk around it to avoid potential issues. As it turns out, this annoys them and can just make it harder to answer the actual Q, they'd much rather just tell you they can't answer X part instead of wasting an extra 7 minutes getting to the point.
A) Elizondo claims that while a DCIPS employee, NSA was paying him. This makes no sense, DCIPS has its own funding. You can be assigned to a DCIPS function from another agency, but you would be working/contracting for that other agency, and the paperwork you yourself sign would make that very clear.
- Yes it does make sense:
Q7. Why doesn't the DCIPS IA cover any of the other DCIPS Components?
A7. The three DCIPS combat support agencies (CSAs), namely the National Security Agency, the
National Geospatial Intelligence Agency, and the Defense Intelligence Agency, chose not to participate in
the DCIPS IA because their DoD civilian employees are entirely in DCIPS, and are not the mixture of GS
and DCIPS employees found in the Military Departments. The DCIPS populations of the three CSAs are
sufficiently large to create robust career progression opportunities across virtually all occupations. Other
DoD Components, like the Missile Defense Agency and the Defense Threat Reduction Agency, have very
few DCIPS employees who almost exclusively perform intelligence work. As such, their career
advancement opportunities already exist within the other major DCIPS Components, or among the non-
DoD elements of the Intelligence Community. Source: https://dcips.defense.gov/Portals/5...PSFAQs_InterchangeAgreement_revised190625.pdf
B) He also later notes he was an "intelligence operations officer" while a DCIPS employee. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but "intelligence operations officer" I've only ever seen for actual enlisted/officer roles, not any sort of civilian staff which would use the Intelligence Operations Specialist continuum (which we know Elizondo was on). He also mentions reaching GS-15 by this point. This raises an issue as, we know later on, he was a Supervisory Intelligence Operations Specialist as D/NPSMS, nearly a decade after the point of reference he made, and *was not a GS-15*, and I've only seen SIOS max out at 14 granted not impossible to hit 15.
- The DCIPS mission categories are Collections and Operations; Processing and Exploitation; Analysis and Production;
Research and Technology; Enterprise Information Technology; Enterprise Management and Support; and Mission Management. The title of "intelligence operations officer" is used for civilians. Here is an example - https://docs.house.gov/meetings/SM/SM00/20230927/116349/HHRG-118-SM00-Bio-TaylorJ-20230927.pdf
C) When meeting with Stratton and his assistant, fellow DoD employees, in a DoD office building, meeting about DoD matters - are wearing blue badges. I may be incorrect, but the blue/green badging only happens with independent IC functions, the DoD has their own internal coloring system for this matter.
- U.S. Government Intelligence Community (IC) personnel are issued a "blue badge". Intelligence Community (IC) personnel with a U.S. government "blue badge" are not required to be registered to visit the Pentagon, but are required to swipe in using IC-badge readers at designated entry points. Source: https://www.pfpa.mil/Topics/Visiting-the-Pentagon/ The Green badge identifies the badge holder having a Top Secret Clearance. Each SCI control system program the individual is cleared to access is listed as a number on the badge. Source: https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/FOIA/Public_CAPCO_Register and Manual v5.1.pdf
Mendel
Senior Member.
Mick West had a chat with Elizondo back in 2021. You can watch it yourself at https://www.metabunk.org/threads/my-chat-with-luis-elizondo.11660/ . There's a link to a transcript in post #2 on that thread.
Elizondo says, at 33:23, "I am aware of your work, Mr. West", as Mick West leads the conversation onto the topic of the three Navy videos.
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Tezcatlipoca
Senior Member.
Maybe wrote bad, it's not that RV and EW were intertwined or researched by the literal same groups. It's that, if we look back in the late 40s-early 60ish, there's a few EW related concepts that were considered parascience and were shunted to the same types of woo crews as the RVers and UFO types. Not that they saw cross developments, or were done by the same teams, etc. The difference was, research actually showed it was a thing, so, they were accurately realigned. When I say "spawned out of" - I mean the early predecessor concepts not being researched, likely would've resulted in the current forms not existing atm, or not being as developed as they are at the moment.
They were nearly all concepts that related to EW application on actual human behavior they were almost all called "psychotronic weapons". It's important to note a lot of these guys on the RV and other parascience programs saw their activities as having a heavy correlate with electromagnetism and physics. It's why, even amongst the known network, a lot of them have educations (iffy to call them specialists or experts for obv reasons) and careers in things like electronics, physics, psychology, and neuroscience.
Unlike Puthoff and Targ with SRI and RV specifically - John Alexander actually was involved in the broader psychotronic side of things. Alexander does fit things like RV as a branch under psychotronics. If anyone wants to read it, here's an article he wrote on it. https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Por...terest/Weapons/The-New-Mental-Battlefield.pdf
There's a lot of early figures before Puthoff and Targ etc, and, entirely outside the woo crew network we know of, that broadly participated in a very large set of parascience programs at the time. Puharich did a lot of psychotronic research in the early-mid 50s before all the rest we hear about. Him and another gentlemen I can't remember the name of were responsible for a lot of early research into bioeffects of RF. As an example of what I mean too, Puharich was one of the individuals responsible here for "discovering" ELFs capability to host bioeffects. He also ran The Roundtable Foundation that did a lot of neurophysiology research. He's not referenced as much alongside UFO/UAP topics due to this but you can find Puharich and his work mentioned in relation to the "targeted individuals" bs.
Outside of EW itself, we have an example with John Alexander and his "sticky foam" which was actually deployed in Mogadishu but wasn't really efficient at all. So, the thing here is, this was not a parascience program, nor did it take information from them. Although, Alexanders belief in parascience topics, presents a bias that impacts all of his research and beliefs about the nonlethal programs he worked on. Alexander later also worked on some of the programs operationalizing the ELF research Puharich did.
https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP96-00789R002200650001-6.pdf
Here's another good article that reviews a bunch of techniques DoD folks variously called "New Age" techniques. This enters one of those weird points at the time for these research programs, the parascience programs were considered part of the "New Age" continuum alongside emerging but entirely legitimate social sciences that had not been integrated to form before (like we saw a very wide expansion of applied neuroscience in military contexts). It brushes up a bit on the issue I mention -
Tezcatlipoca
Senior Member.
On A) I got that part, my point there was more in, he claims his salary was paid by the NSA while working DCIPS roles not related too NSA. DCIPS has its own funding, there's not really an explainer here as to why Elizondo would be paid by the NSA. He himself admits he does not know why that happened. As far as anyone knows, even Elizondo himself, he wasn't doing anything related to the NSA. Great source you provided but contextually would really only fit if Elizondo was working for/assigned too an NSA function. The sourcing here does not explain why Elizondo would be paid by the NSA but, as far as he knows, not have been doing anything for the NSA.
On B) Near confident that gentlemen was attached to ODNI from the Navy while actively serving - not having left service and re-entered as a civilian employee as Elizondo claims in his continuum. I have seen "Intelligence Specialist (Operations)" used in this context.
C) Didn't touch on the point I mentioned. The point I brought up, is they were all DoD officials in a DoD building. Stratton and his assistant were working in DoD roles at the time, per sourcing and known job history, not independent IC functions. This meeting did not happen at the Pentagon but a building used by DoD staff and some contracting companies. The DoD internally and IC at large do not follow the same color conventions, although, when it's a joint function/location, DoD-IC components do follow that convention. The issue is this example given falls outside that context (entirely DoD staff, in a DoD area, speaking about internal DoD matters).
Also where's that green badge reference from? In the independent IC context I've only ever seen Green referenced for vendors/contractors. If you mean the DoD meaning there that's fair, though that hits exactly on what I mean by how the color conventions are not held the same, DoD internally colors their badges and some other identifiers based off clearance. I've seen Yellow referenced for Confidential and Red for Secret. Seen debate over Green and Orange.
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@Tezcatlipoca thanks for the elaboration! That's some interesting stuff that I'll have to find some time to dive into
Resistor
New Member
Thank you for posting the link. I viewed the interview to find that Elizondo falls into the 4th category of people he categorized as no matter what you present to them, they are going to believe what they want to believe.
A) I did not read the book. I found the reference that NSA employees are part of DCIPS. I do not know why the NSA would be paying his salary.
C) Agreed, the IC is composed of 16 executive branch agencies and organizations. Access Control Working Group Intelligence Community Badge Interoperability Program (ACWG ICBIP) - Works closely with representatives of the National Security Agency, Central Intelligence Agency, Defense Intelligence Agency, National Geospatial Intelligence Agency, and the National Reconnaissance Office and other agencies to achieve badge interoperability for government and contractor personnel working in those agencies. Badge interoperability facilitates information sharing and the mobility of personnel within the agencies of the Intelligence Community. (Source: https://www.dami.army.pentagon.mil/site/SCI/About.aspx) The Green badge is issued through the SSO program office that is managing the TS clearance of the contractors, government service and uniformed service personnel to identify they have a TS clearance. Each SCI caveat (readin) is also identifed on the badge. Source: https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/...dm/510521m_vol3.pdf?ver=2020-09-15-132603-533 & https://www.dni.gov/files/documents...cation and Control Markings Register V1.2.pdf
I think it might help if people took a moment and checked out what DCIPS is.
Search the internet, google or whatever, and you will find several informative webpages about the "Defense Civilian Intelligence Personnel System", DCIPS.
Its a employer personnel records management system, that's all. Just part of the bureaucracy that keeps things running.
Everybody in the Intelligence Community is now in DCIPS as far as I know.
Search the internet, google or whatever, and you will find several informative webpages about the "Defense Civilian Intelligence Personnel System", DCIPS.
Its a employer personnel records management system, that's all. Just part of the bureaucracy that keeps things running.
Everybody in the Intelligence Community is now in DCIPS as far as I know.
Tezcatlipoca
Senior Member.
Just to note my point here wasn't to notate an issue with his DCIPS claim itself, he absolutely was in DCIPS. It was pointing out that his salary was paid for by the NSA per Elizondo, and, according to himself, he also didn't know why this was the case. Didn't mean to spin off a larger discussion about DCIPS. Seems like he inserted this as some point to reinforce ideas about spooky programs. And not sure about the whole IC part think there's still some agencies that don't fall in with DCIPS.
Yeah spot on with A, NSA is still part of DCIPS. In re above just the issue point was more his claim about him getting salaried by NSA for some unknown reason, when going into a program ran and operated through the DIA.
C) Solid sourcing on that one for the IC badges themselves. The issue I brought up here was morein contextual use of the badges, eg, using IC badges in a DoD facility speaking about internal-DoD matters. DoD has their own system that is distinct from the IC badge system, as does the White House and Dept of Energy etc. Just because you're in an IC function doesn't necessarily mean your IC badge supersedes use of the DoD badging, if you were in a DoD-IC component you'd still need your DoD badges for varying things that're internal rather than IC functions themselves.
Here's an example of how the NDU badges people at their facilities. IC badges do not correlate to this system and an IC badge won't get you access to the areas access controlled by NDU. https://www.ndu.edu/Portals/59/Docu... Security Indoc.pdf?ver=2018-08-08-140742-630
John J.
Senior Member.
It's one of the tenets of writing books for "UFOs mean aliens" believers- don't let checkable facts get in the way of your narrative.
Greene
Member
Do we know what his years of active service were?
He graduated HS in 1990, then college after (presumably 4 years).
The remote viewing program was dumped off on SAIC in 91. To the best of my knowledge*, the only military personnel involved at that point were the old guys who had been with the program a long time. They weren't training anyone new. Then the program was shut down in 95 (because it was bunk).
When exactly would Elizondo have been part of this program?
*Disclosure - I was employed by SAIC at the time. I was not directly read into the program but was aware of it and interacted with people involved.
He graduated HS in 1990, then college after (presumably 4 years).
The remote viewing program was dumped off on SAIC in 91. To the best of my knowledge*, the only military personnel involved at that point were the old guys who had been with the program a long time. They weren't training anyone new. Then the program was shut down in 95 (because it was bunk).
When exactly would Elizondo have been part of this program?
*Disclosure - I was employed by SAIC at the time. I was not directly read into the program but was aware of it and interacted with people involved.
I started at SAIC in 92 in Standford's group working on GCCS. I was not aware of the program.
Tezcatlipoca
Senior Member.
The timeline I'm working on reconstructing is gonna try and hit on this but gets weird at some points. He references "Gray Fox" for example and, that wasn't a codeword used until the 2000s. So, his introduction to "Greg" from "Gray Fox" who also does Stargate recruiting would've had to of been post-2000 unless he's lying there. He claims as of 2008 (when Stratton and his assistant supposedly introduced him to AAWSAP) he had already been a GS-15 and had multiple significant responsibilities such as being/having been an NSC staffer.
Roughly from what I have so far;
1995 - Graduated college
1995 to 2001 - Entered service doing "counterintelligence" (presumably as a 35L? but never heard him say/reference himself as a CI SA before, just that he did counterintel)
1995 to 2001 - Supposedly recruited into the "Stargate" program spinoff. It is during this period he claims he ghosted out of service into "Gregs" project and, basically just left his formal assignment. Based off his explanation, not sure how this wasn't going AWOL.
2001 - Deployed to Afghanistan. Supposedly responsible for coordinating counterintelligence functions across Southern Afghanistan.
2008 - Met Stratton and was recruited as AAWSAPs "Chief of Security and Counterintelligence"
2010 - Claims he was functionally in charge of AAWSAP.
2016 to 2017 - D/NPSMS era. Met Mellon in 2016 also.
He does not define this but across varying sources he claims he went into AAWSAP (2008) right after leaving his deployment(s?) in Afghanistan.
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NorCal Dave
Senior Member.
But we know the official Stargate was done by then, the CIA requested AIR report was completed in September of '95 and Stargate was declassified. Either there was a different still classified New Stargate that continued on, or something isn't right here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate_ProjectExternal Quote:
Elizondo's account of how he took over and ran AAWSAP is also at odds with what Lacatski, who did run AAWSAP, has said. Elizondo and Stratton did appear to run an unofficial and unfunded side project that followed up on AAWSAP and borrowed the meaningless acronym AATIP as the name for their side hustle.
Was Elizondo involved in something similar post Official Stargate? A side hustle of some sort by folks that believe in Psy?
As I noted in post #32, one of the few Stargate success stories that gets talked about is the finding of a downed Soviet Tu-95 in Africa. I'm still trying to track down some more info on it, BUT so far it appears that case was NOT part of the official Stargate program, rather it was a side hustle by a believer in the DoD.
Briefly, civilian scientist Dale Graff at the Foreign Technology Group at WPAFB had become interested in Psy after a personal experience. In the mid '70s he contacted Puthoff and Targ at SRI who were working with Geller, McMoneagle, Swann and others. (There work must not have been that classified?) He then got the Air Force to allow him to set about doing his own thing with Psy at WPAFB where he recruited his own psychics:
https://www.google.com/books/editio...BAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PT168&printsec=frontcover
I certainly don't know this world, but it seems for an AAWSAP there's an AATIP or for Stargate there's an Air Force rocket scientist doing ESP research. @Landru, your much more knowledge about these things. Is this common, little side projects being carried out unofficially or semi-officially?
There are multiple references to Elizondo being psychic. He was chasing UFOs unofficially in the mid '00s, maybe he was doing Psy stuff unofficially in the early '00s?
I do not have comprehensive knowledge about this but what knowledge I do have is that you have to have approval or else you are outside your appropriation mandate. Unless the language is fuzzy. Again, I'm not an expert.
Scaramanga
Senior Member
As far as I can see, his friend Tom Delonge had already decided as far back as 2015 ( and probably earlier if one considers his direction of The Dream Walker )that UFOs were angels and demons. He even named his new rock band Angels And Airwaves, and he is now openly into the demonic interpretation.
The 'demonic connection' with UFOs used to be a small element of UFOlogy...and dates back at least as far as John Keel's 'Operation Trojan Horse' in 1970, which I have, which as far as I can see is the origin of the conspiracy theory that demons were going to pose as extraterrestrials come to save us. Hal Lindsey also touches on the 'demonic UFOs' connection in his 1974 book The Late Great Planet Earth......and he was one of the main forces behind the 'Jesus is returning soon...watch out for deception' theories that have become ever more prevalent.
So in fact the entire 'End Times' theories have increasingly become a large element of UFOlogy, largely based upon Biblical warnings of 'the great deception' in the last days. So when you see Delonge and Elizondo and others promote the demonic interpretation....that is essentially the religious background to it all.
If you want to see how prevalent this thinking is, have a look at a Youtube channel called Strange Normal. This was very fringe stuff up until quite recently....
https://www.youtube.com/@StrangeNormal
John J.
Senior Member.
I won't pretend to know how security is managed internally in the US, but this seems strange to me.
The examples above have a 2007 date. Through the early 2000s I worked in various UK hospitals/ universities, staff ID cards in some featured an embedded chip and a scannable bar code. Used as a key card, the chip allowed access to areas you might reasonably need to visit, depending on your role. I guess usage (therefore movement) was logged.
Maybe there are chips on the reverse of the NDU badges.
No visible hologram tags like on bank/ credit cards etc.
Why flag up your security clearance to the canteen staff, vending machine guy (no offence Bob Lazar) and window cleaner?
If the badges had an embedded chip, having a clear visual indicator of your clearance is redundant.
As is, it's like wearing a sweatshirt saying "I know the secret stuff!" in big letters.
Too obvious an indicator- suppose the bearer were mugged, had their home or hotel burgled, or simply misplaced it?
These things happen (maybe shouldn't, but they do). A less loyal member of ancillary staff can identify those with highest clearance to others.
If the colours alone facilitate access, as depicted the cards would be easy to forge or abuse. And if they don't, what's the point?
Everyone likes a bit of affirmation, but in the unlikely event I was auditing the use of NDU badges, I'd advise dropping the colours. And no more silver Aston Martin DB5s in the car pool.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
There's another mentioned in the same Wikipedia article,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate_ProjectExternal Quote:
There's a review of Morehouse's book on the Publisher's Weekly website, dated 11/04/1996
(My emphasis), https://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-312-14708-2External Quote:
If the USSR lost a nuclear-armed aircraft in a jungle somewhere, it seems strange (again) that former military personnel involved with "Stargate" should be the ones to reveal it to the world. Not aware of any non-Stargate/ Psi believer/ Elizondo sources.
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Ben Harris
Member
It won't happen. "Remote Viewing" is a total con, just like metal-bending is a total con.
Both are old tricks used by the psychic-pretenders. Both are also very clever in that they may be performed over great distances-- even country to country. Interestingly, you find Uri Geller at the heart of both of these tricks (SRI and Puthoff).
The above is not speculation. I've been part of this industry for 40 years, it's how I earn my living.
Bend It Like Geller
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NorCal Dave
Senior Member.
Yeah, like I said, the whole Psy found Soviet bomber could use its own thread. It gets mentioned in various places as a success story for Project Stargate, but wasn't really part of Stargate. Graff was a civilian Air Force scientist who recruited his own psychics. Upon maybe "learning the location" of the Tu-95 from his non-Stargate psychic, Rosemary Smith, Graff then went to Puthoff and Targ at SRI, the "real" Stargate and had viewer Grag Langford also look for the bomber. Supposedly, Langford drew a similar map to Smith but due to encryption problems, only Smith's information was used. Not information from Project Stargate.
Elizondo makes the same claim in his book. But Graff's Air Force version of Stargate was not part of Stargate. AASWAP was an officially funded program but was still mostly one DoD civilian's obsession with UFO/paranormal stuff. Lakatski designed and administered AASWAP, with Senator Ried's blessing, to fund his and Bigelow's interest in SWR. AATIP was follow up side-hustle to AAWSAP by Elizondo and Stratton. The early Stargate was mostly Puthoff and Targ and Graff was running his own side-hustle based on their research. It's a small number of people, sometimes acting officially, sometimes semi-officially or maybe completely on their own advancing this stuff in the DoD/IC.
Elizondo's claim that he was being recruited as a potential psychic for Project Stargate 5-6 years after Stargate had been cancelled and declassified is mystifying at best. But giving these folks seem to find ways to keep their interest and beliefs going over time, maybe there was some sort of Psy side-hustle going on that Elizondo got involved with.
Ben Harris
Member
Quite frankly, it's madness: using one nonesense claim to support another.
Tezcatlipoca
Senior Member.
I'll have to go through my screens again to grab the snippet if I grabbed one of that part, but yah you're right on the first part. In fact, Elizondo actually identifies in that part that, the real program had shut down, and "Gregs" "Stargate" was basically like Elizondo's AATIP, it was an unfunded pet project being ran outside actual DoD purview. This is why that part confuses me on his service continuum because idk how him ghosting from his posting and going here isn't being AWOL.
And yeah you're right with a lot here, and yes these are old NDU badges, but, from 2007, so, exactly a year before Elizondo would've been speaking about (end of 2008/poss early 2009). I was just using them as a point that "IC badges" aren't an end all. Your IC badge means jack shit at a non-IC DoD facility, same as your NDU badge isn't getting you into Fort X across the country or the PDX at your local air base, all it does is clear you around actual IC facilities. "IC badges" are needed to access certain areas at the NDU for example, but you also need NDU badges to access, well, actually, almost all the IC cleared areas at NDU afaik are locked in areas you need NDU building badges, so, you'd have to have both. This is why, as Elizondo actually references in his book too, there's a lot of folks working at certain levels that walk around with keychains full of different badges. They aren't all IC badges just cuz you're working at DIA, more than half of them are probably DoD badges irrelated to IC functions, but rather for things like basic DoD facility access.
John J.
Senior Member.
Maybe he was running a secret time-travel research program at the time
NorCal Dave
Senior Member.
Maybe he was running a secret time-travel research program at the time
Maybe! Maybe more like what Tezcatlipoca said and I missed:
Yet another side-hustle. More off the books fooling around with fringe stuff.
scombrid
Senior Member.
Good thing they didn't go to Plaid while in the atmosphere.
Duke
Senior Member.
Can you provide an approximate date for his claim? Around 2000?
NorCal Dave
Senior Member.
Some of it comes from this screen grab of the preview that @Tezcatlipoca had posted. That's what I was responding to:
Possibly linking Grey Fox to Stargate? There is also this screen grab with Elizondo talking about "Gene" training him to be a viewer from Mick's X post:
I guess the problem is we don't have the full book yet, just bits and pieces. Nevertheless, "Gene", Grey Fox and Elizondo's group of remote viewing buddies sounds like yet another side-hustle with a bit of historical re-writing. Note above how Elizondo extolls the virtues and successes of Stargate, something completely contrary to the CIA's final assessment of the program that resulted it in being canceled and declassified in 1995. I suppose the argument is: "That's exactly what the CIA WANTED the Russians to think." It really worked so well, they had to say it didn't and then kept it going. Evidence that contradicts a claim is often viewed as evidence confirming the claim in these situations.
It makes sense I suppose. Elizondo was running around with Mellon, DeLong and Puthoff at TTSA. He was running around with Stratton at AATIP. Stratton was running around with Lacatski and Puthoff at Skinwalker Ranch. And Puthoff was being amazed by Uri Geller at SRI for Stargate.
It seems if one mixes all this together, we might get a book that's 1 part Clive Cussler adventure cliche, 1 part crusader against a government cover up and a healthy dose of SWR nonsense.
EDIT: So, no Duke the exact timeline is not in these sections. I think some are looking at what is publicly known about Elizondo, like graduating collage in 1995 and trying to infer when some of this happened.
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Duke
Senior Member.
Uk k
Ok, thanks. I was trying to figure out if Elizondo could have had any dealings with Basiago, Stillings, and Soetero/Obama as part of Project Pegasus. You'd have thought a man of Elizondo's obvious integrity and talents would have been selected as a chrononaut. A quick and dirty search didn't reveal Elizondo's age/DoB, but if he did graduat from college in 1995, figure he was born in the early 70s. Suppose he'd have been too young to teleport to Mars.
Tezcatlipoca
Senior Member.
Just to note, "Grey Fox" was an actual thing. It was the codename that the "Intelligence Support Activity" went by the first few years in Afghanistan. There is an issue though. He claims that "Greg" mentions "Grey Fox" is the "Great Skills program". This isn't possible. GSP (and its counterparts) are administrative bodies that find placements for people. The group referenced, ironically, does not recruit through the GSP, they recruited through another continuum of programs that use to be called the United Stated Army Skills Evaluation Detachment (USASED) and now the United States Army Personnel Assessments Branch (USAPAB). This is a different but similar program, rather than just covering SAPs like the Great Skills Program - this continuum of programs specifically recruits for different groups that're SMUs or enablers and some joint agency work w/ non DoD partners.
The primary function of remote viewing claims is it provides a cover story for how we really find out things. Not a very plausible cover story, but then the more outlandish your claims the more SOME people will believe them.
John J.
Senior Member.
That might be a possibility, but we'd need some sort of evidence to definitely apply that to the Stargate Project.
The CIA commissioned a 1995 report by the American Institutes for Research (PDF attached) into the utility of Stargate; the report's findings -essentially that there were no useful results- is seen as being instrumental in the Stargate Project being cancelled on grounds of cost and (zero) utility.
Federation of American Scientists, STAR GATE [Controlled Remote Viewing] https://irp.fas.org/program/collect/stargate.htmExternal Quote:
(Didn't know FAS were interested in this kind of thing).
(1) There would be no need to commission AIR's audit if Stargate were known to be primarily a cover story.
(2) If it were a cover story, why recruit claimed psychics like Ingo Swann? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingo_Swann).
Just have an on-paper-only establishment and budget, and have a handful of bright int. folk knock out the odd piece of disinformation once in a blue moon.
No need to commission a report seeing if it was effective if it was to be closed down.
(3) Though declassified, there isn't documentary evidence (AFAIK) that Stargate was run as a cover.
(4) The recent Congressional UAP hearings, Grusch affair etc. show us there are politicians and reasonably senior officers in the US services who believe in, or are prepared to consider, what might be considered fringe theories by some.
This might have been even more the case in the heady 60s/ 70s;
FAS, link above.External Quote:
(5) Harold Puthoff and Russell Targ must be considered "believers" in ESP.
At the moment, I think it's likely the Stargate Project was set up to "genuinely" investigate remote viewing, and its sponsors thought RV worth investigating. That Stargate ran for so many years might suggest that critical oversight was lacking.
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NorCal Dave
Senior Member.
OK, that's a pretty good take. The entire Project Stargate was just a diversion to throw the Soviets off the scent about how the US was really finding stuff out. I like it and wish it was it were true, but giving that people like Colonel Albert "Bert" Newton Stubblebine III "Stubby" helped set up Stargate and thought he could walk through walls, it appears some in the Dod/IC really thought this shit was real:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_StubblebineExternal Quote:
There is also this blurb from Stubby's Wiki page:
External Quote:
JMartJr
Senior Member.
The ideal person to put in charge of such a diversion would be somebody that biught inyo te premise... theyd be quite beleivable in that role!
Tezcatlipoca
Senior Member.
So, I will note in full agreements with your point that there is no sourcing Stargate or its output was used this way. I don't think it's necessarily impossible though. A lot of these activities at first started to be precedented for govt/mil research programs after intelligence pulled the fact the Soviets had people researching similar concepts (whether or not they had a similar issue surrounding the programs is up in the air, English sourcing is trickier but does show a more serious view towards it). We did later find out, in around the 70s-80s, that the USSR had also functionally been using these for strategic military deception purposes. The thing is, and much as it would be for us, the people ideating and operationalizing these facets exploiting the programs would largely be entirely separate from the program itself, and those on them may never have known their output was being used that way.
Given the lack of sourcing here, I don't think this is the thread at least to go over it, but in re the possibility of this happening removed from the program(s) themselves is the more likely way it would happen over the program itself being a farce. In that case, sourcing from/about the program itself isn't really going to be found since it'd be stored and buried elsewhere.
NorCal Dave
Senior Member.
I should have been a bit clearer. What I found interesting was this part of the quote from the Wiki:
I'd like to find out a bit more about these allegations, because to me it sounds like yet another side-hustle. Not to sound like a broken record, but IF true, here is another example of a believer in UFO/Psy/(insert fringe thing here) fooling around with this stuff in the DoD/IC. In the case of Elizondo and Stratton's AATIP, it becomes evidence that the US government is officially involved in these things.External Quote:
Agreed. However, I'd argue some of these programs are in fact farces. AAWSAP spending $20 million to study stuff at SWR certainly was a complete farce.
Stargate wasn't much better. Yes, some thought the Soviets were successful with Psy, so the US needed to look into it, but the biggest deal in the early years of Puthoff and Targ was Uri Geller. In the mid '70s, Geller was the star at SRI, but Geller had been outed as a fraud on The Johnny Carson Show in 1973. Nevertheless, he and Puthoff and Targ continued on at SRI. It wasn't until Ray Hyman looked at the work of SRI and declared Geller a complete fraud that Puthoff and Targ lost funding. With no useful results and a known fraud as the best part of the program, it continued on anyways and by the '90s the reins were almost completely handed over to yet another believer, Edwin May:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate_ProjectExternal Quote:
Stargate was finally cancelled in 1995, 23 years after Puthoff and Targ had started testing Geller. Aside from some possible statistical anomalies in a meta-analysis, the program(s) never produced anything in those 23 years. Sounds pretty farcical.
Despite this, if Elizondo is to be believed, there were folks still trying to make it work long afterwards.
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