Gridlock
Senior Member.
As with literally everything relating to this, consider your sources - that is far from a neutral source. But facts are facts.
MH17 Malaysian 777 Carrying 295 People Shot Down Over Ukraine
- Thread starter ConspiracyAtheist
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As with literally everything relating to this, consider your sources - that is far from a neutral source. But facts are facts.
Bill
Senior Member.
The BUK system encompasses the SA-11 and the next generation SA-17
The SA-20 is part of the S-300 series of weapons systems. This series is now up to the SA-23
Part of the problem is multiple designations for the same weapons system make reporting on the systems confusing.
Pete Tar
Senior Member.
Well, it appears my faith in humanity was somewhat misplaced.Missing/destroyed evidence: Investigation scenes are usually cordoned off, but the site is open, and people randomly walked across the crash site. Looters rifled through some of the backpacks and other carry-on luggage in the debris, and it's unclear how many personal items were taken.
Though a warzone changes basic morality pretty quickly.
Bill
Senior Member.
Ultimately yes. They fired the shot - they are to blame.
Stevan Gvozdenovic
Member
there is an evidence of ukrainian military planes(several of them) shot on FL150+, US has the means to detect if those were shot by russian planes or from russian territory so I'm quite sure Russians wouldn't play with that
thus, the only possibility is rebels getting medium-range SAMs from either looting ukrainian army bases or supplied directly from Russia (still much more probability for the first)
they were bragging on twitter together with pictures that noone has disputed
because transport planes are also legitimate target, they are carrying supplies and troops whose job is to kill the same rebels
not in my book, if you know there is a heavy SAM activity on that air corridor and Ukrainians sure knew that, your obligation is to close that corridor for commercial aircrafts, it's done even during the peacetime when your military practice AA operations because mistakes happen to those most experienced, Russians hit two civilian planes, US Vincennes downed iranian A300, even ukrainian military accidentaly shot down russian Tupolev before 10 years or so during the practice, the thing is humans make mistakes
David
Member
Yes, and a very big mistake. And they're denying it while everything leads to them.
Investigators can't do their jobs, that also looks bad, no reason to defend the Russians/pro-Russians at this point.
Jason
Senior Member
Thanks Landry I researched it too but was confused.
Stevan Gvozdenovic
Member
I don't defend their post-event behaviour but I can totally understand why they fired.
You are getting bombed constantly from that same air corridor and when you have the chance to respond you'll say "OK I know I am not experienced enough to recognize if it is a civilian plane which shouldn't be there anyway but someone on the Internet might say that I will be responsible if it is so better to risk my and life of my comrades from getting bombed again than shooting unidentified target"
That's not how wars are being fought, collateral damage is always present.
David
Member
So shoot at everything that's in the air? I think you're playing this down.
This is a disaster not just a mistake.
Stevan Gvozdenovic
Member
99% planes coming from that direction were ukrainian fighters/bombers and rebels probably assumed it was the area closed for civilian traffic because only an insane person would allow a commercial aircraft to fly through that corridor.
Warzone is simply not the place for civilians of any form.
Warzone is simply not the place for civilians of any form.
Stevan Gvozdenovic
Member
they didn't have a second vehicle with advanced radar that could precisely tell them altitude, also they don't have to know what altitude military tranport planes could fly
for what is worth they could be instructed only enough to shoot when they see a blip on the screen
for what is worth they could be instructed only enough to shoot when they see a blip on the screen
David
Member
That would be very irresponsible then.
Pete Tar
Senior Member.
Interesting to look at the previous similar incident where Russia lied at every turn to deny their responsibility for shooting down flight 007.
While not directly responsible this time, they are doing everything to avoid admitting the possibility of indirect responsibility, and the tenseness of relations at the moment are similar.The Soviet Union initially denied knowledge of the incident,[2] but later admitted the shootdown, claiming that the aircraft was on a spy mission.[3] The Politburo said it was a deliberate provocation by the United States[4] to test the Soviet Union's military preparedness, or even to provoke a war. The White House accused the Soviet Union of obstructing search and rescue operations.[5] The Soviet military suppressed evidence sought by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) investigation, notably the flight data recorders,[6] which were eventually released eight years later after the collapse of the Soviet Union.[7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007
Jason
Senior Member
But what about all the other commercial airliners like AirFrance that flew over the same region. The US or FAA warned American Commercial Airliners of the situation in the Ukrane back in April of this year to not fly over that region of the world. For what ever reason other's chose to fly that route, probably to save on fuel and time. The Ukranian government isn't bombing that territory, they've been pushing back the russian separatist for a couple of weeks now. The russian rebels even bombed 3 bridges as they were pulling back. http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-ukraine-russia-donetsk-bridges-20140707-story.html
I still don't understand why after 2 planes were shot out of the sky recently, that commercial airline companies would "still" risk flying over that area. To my understanding, commercial jets were supposed to stay above 32000 ft to stay safe, but still, too risky if you ask me. So some of the owness has to be on the Ukranian government and their ATC for not closing off those corridors.
MikeC
Closed Account
Zero Hedge posted a question on whether the flight was diverted over restricted airspace yesterday:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-17/was-flight-mh-17-diverted-over-restricted-airspace
The Zero Hedge article highlights this image:
Probably because of weather - this is from MODIS yesterday - crash area i highlighted I think - it is just a quick triangulation from the easily visible rivers in shot
Pete Tar
Senior Member.
Stay classy Russia.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolo...s-Wikipedia-on-flight-MH17.html#disqus_thread
A political battle has broken out on Wikipedia over an entry relating to the crash of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17, with the Russian government reportedly removing sections which accuse it of providing "terrorists" with missiles that were used to down the civilian airliner.
A Twitter bot which monitors edits made to the online encyclopaedia from Russian government IP addresses (unique numbers relating to certain computers or networks) has spotted that changes are being made to a page relating to the crash.
It appears that an internet user from within the All-Russia State Television and Radio Broadcasting Company (VGTRK) changed a Russian language version of a page listing civil aviation accidents to say that "The plane [flight MH17] was shot down by Ukrainian soldiers".
Efftup
Senior Member.
there is a bigger gap between the front two missiles than between the back two. There is a space where a fourth one could have been fired from.
J
Joe
Guest
Jason
Senior Member
Maybe it's me but it seems very convenient that the Ukranians had all of this intercepted phone calls and even video of the supposed Buk system on a flatbed truck leaving the area. Then I saw on a guest on cnn propose a scenario where Kiev possibly set up the Russians by leaking intel about a supposed cargo plane. Considering they were so prepared to catch them in the act.
Pete Tar
Senior Member.
Anything that proves culpability is 'convenient' for someone.
They monitor the separatists, movements of arms, etc. They had other recordings in previous weeks (sorry don't have links to prove that), but it was part of their normal intel-gathering activities, it's not out of nowhere that suddenly they have intel on them.
The latest claim is that the recording of rebels/russians discussing the event is fake because of the time-stamp showing it uploaded before the plane was downed, but youtube timestamps are not accurate to the local time of when something is uploaded.
Perhaps worth a debunk with examples of other uploads that can be placed to the known time of a particular event but are time-stamped before the event?
They monitor the separatists, movements of arms, etc. They had other recordings in previous weeks (sorry don't have links to prove that), but it was part of their normal intel-gathering activities, it's not out of nowhere that suddenly they have intel on them.
The latest claim is that the recording of rebels/russians discussing the event is fake because of the time-stamp showing it uploaded before the plane was downed, but youtube timestamps are not accurate to the local time of when something is uploaded.
Perhaps worth a debunk with examples of other uploads that can be placed to the known time of a particular event but are time-stamped before the event?
Sgt.Tinfoil
Member
If I am not mistaken the separatists have been shooting down the Ukrainian armys planes before because parts of the Ukrainian army was(is still????) encircled by the separatists and were out of water, food and other resources. They tried to use air bridge to deliver help to them. So I could imagine that they try to shoot everything down which is flying in the sky. I could imagine also that they do not enought realtime access to international flights information to make decsion is the plane civilian or military. Sad but that might the reality of that war.
Well to be honest this tragedy has proven you to be wrong.
To be honests this is stupid even for Wikipedia. Before investigations there is no a) info _was_ the plane even shot down b) no info _who_ did it c) no information _where_ the guns came from.
As a side note my personal gut feeling is that separatists did shoot the plane down. And I _guess_ the situation went something like this. Luhansk Republic captured BUK some time ago from Ukrainian military. Ukrainian Army denied that even when separatists published photos of that system in interwebz. For some reason which is not clear to me the Eastern-Ukrainian airspace was not completely shut down from civilian aeroplanes(like Crimea) maybe because Ukraine tries to downplay the separatists true military force for international community. Luhansk Republic gives secretly the BUK to Donetsk Republic who shoots down the blob in radar which seems to go towards encircled Ukrainian Army positions in Eastern-Southern Ukraine, maybe thinking that they try to drop some resources to Ukrainian army. Somebody in the area sees plane crash and tweets "LULZ PWND Donetsk STRONK!!!!!". Donetsk republic realized that they fucked up and denies that they even have cabability to shoot down plane that high thus starting blame game which is followed which is followed with different international communities starting theirs internal/external politics and propaganda machines work. But this is just my guess and should not taken as anykind of a fact.
Pete Tar
Senior Member.
So it's put down to collateral damage because 32000 feet is a warzone?
A lot of dogfighting going on at that altitude is there?
Sgt.Tinfoil
Member
Not usually but planes are shot down from there or planes can bomb, gather intelligence or whatever from there. You know war stuff
TEEJ
Senior Member.
An example of how conspiracy theorists can completely misinterpret what they see. When I first saw the streaming debris footage I knew that it wouldn't be long before the 'chaff' theory would appear.
http://pissinontheroses.blogspot.fi/2014/07/alert-777-shoot-down-video-shows-chaff.html
http://pissinontheroses.blogspot.fi/2014/07/alert-777-shoot-down-video-shows-chaff.html
vooke
Active Member
Amused is more like it. And I don't know what/who to report to
We have wild speculations here and basically reporting none of which servers metabunk.org purpose
David
Member
All information coming from Russia is bunk, while everything leads to them they still deny blame.
Gridlock
Senior Member.
It's prebunking.
This is one of those events that will be echoing down the ages, like Gulf of Tonkin, Lockerbie, USS Vincennes for instance. Being on top of various aspects now is useful, important and informative IMO.
This thread doesn't seem out of place in General Discussion.
But now we're metametabunking.
This is one of those events that will be echoing down the ages, like Gulf of Tonkin, Lockerbie, USS Vincennes for instance. Being on top of various aspects now is useful, important and informative IMO.
This thread doesn't seem out of place in General Discussion.
But now we're metametabunking.
Jason
Senior Member
Great photos, I've seen many reports that this was possibly a proximity warhead. So it could possibly explain this type of damage, if it didn't happen during the collision with earth...Looks like part of the stabilizer. Possible missile warhead fragmentation damage?
Jason
Senior Member
Technically, these types of missiles detonate on or near its heat source designation. So the most likely targets on the airplane for this type of weaponry would be the turbine engines. We should expect to see more damage to one side of the plane vs the other. At what point does the plane become unsurvivable. Here's an example of a DHL Airbus A300 surviving after being hit by a SAM in Baghdad;Likely to be from mid-air collision with other debris or a tree/whatever on the ground IMO. There's a great big jigsaw puzzle to build before the experts can start to figure this out.
That was most likely a shoulder fired SAM. So smaller warhead.
WeedWhacker
Senior Member
Too bad that computer animation simulation is showing a B-777....
It's a developing story. This thread largely exists to collate information and look at emerging conspiracy theories. The MH370 speculation page got five times as long as this one before I shut it down.
Jason
Senior Member
I didn't notice, but then again I'm not a pilot like you
. I've been trying to find a simulation on line but no luck. In the picture though you can clearly see there is wreckage that never caught on fire;
And then other areas with wreckage (assuming where the plane impacted) were burnt to a crisp.
Just trying to figure out if the missile caused an explosion in the air that led to the plane catching on fire prior to impact. Do you suppose most of the plane was intact when it impacted the surface due to the huge fireball as seen on video footage. That means the wings would've had to have been intact upon impact to create such a huge explosion because they house the jet fuel.
WeedWhacker
Senior Member
One ridiculous bunk claim was that this jet was actually MH370, after it had been "hijacked" by the U.S., then released.
A "Comprehensive guide to the web's many MH17 conspiracy theories" by 'The Washington Post':
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...de-to-the-webs-many-mh17-conspiracy-theories/
(Number 7)....
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