MH17 Malaysian 777 Carrying 295 People Shot Down Over Ukraine

[David]

Rebel leader Igor Strelkov thinks that the corpses near the debris died days before the plane took off.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...es-aren-t-fresh-claims-corpses-dead-days.html

 

[Jason]

Russian State media is developing their own conspiracy theory saying that the Ukranians mistook MH-17 for Putins Personal Jet. http://www.latinopost.com/articles/...theories-on-the-internet-ukraine-credible.htm

Ukraine mistook MH-17 for Vladimir Putin's personal jet

Apparently this rumor came straight from the Russian state-run media before making its rounds elsewhere. Part of the reason for this speculation is that Putin's personal plane bears a similar color scheme to the Malaysia Airlines 777 that crashed.

This theory has supposedly been debunked by the fact that Putin hasn't flown over Ukraine in months and was actually on his way back from Brazil when the incident occurred.

Or the CT about how this was done to prevent or destroy the discovery that AIDS was man-made

The Plane was Destroyed to Prevent the Discovery that AIDS/HIV is Man-Made

Word has since come out that many of the passengers on MH-17 were prominent AIDS researchers on their way to an AIDS conference in Australia. Some say that the research of these experts was about to uncover something groundbreaking involving the disease, like perhaps that it was man-made

 

[Landru]

Technically, these types of missiles detonate on or near its heat source designation. So the most likely targets on the airplane for this type of weaponry would be the turbine engines. We should expect to see more damage to one side of the plane vs the other. At what point does the plane become unsurvivable. Here's an example of a DHL Airbus A300 surviving after being hit by a SAM in Baghdad;

The missile (SA-11) is radar guided as far as I can see from reading the link I previously posted.

 

[Jason]

The missile (SA-11) is radar guided as far as I can see from reading the link I previously posted.

I think you're right Landru. Is the intelligence community 100% certain it was a SA-11?

 

[Sgt.Tinfoil]

I think you're right Landru. Is the intelligence community 100% certain it was a SA-11?

I am pretty sure that it is not even sure that the plane was shot down. Not that it does not prohibit to press to claim so or even know who were behind it.

 

[WeedWhacker]

I am pretty sure that it is not even sure that the plane was shot down.

Incorrect.

"U.S. Official: Missile shot down Malaysia Airlines plane":
http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/17/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/index.html

 

[Leifer]

It's important to understand (fathom) the shear amount of speculation, and bunk that can surface in a situation like this.

The event is fresh......
Social media likes to speculate (if only for conversational purposes).....
User-written content on blogs, and unreliable armchair reporting on the MANY independent ad-based news/info sites..... is all too common.
Mainstream News corps (CNN, MSNBC, FOX) can also be speculators at this point.

Speculation is often proposed as fact.... even if it's not suggested as forever-facts ("the facts we know right now"), ideas can be burned into people's heads.
While it may seem not worthwhile to wave an opinion too soon (in a recent event, to cautious thinkers).....early conclusions (opinions) do happen in a large portion of the online population.

I may be stating the obvious here.
Predebunking and fact-checking is worthwhile.

 

[Sgt.Tinfoil]

Incorrect.

I stand corrected. Thank you

 

[TEEJ]

The missile (SA-11) is radar guided as far as I can see from reading the link I previously posted.

The SA-11 can also be optically guided. The Transport Erector Launcher (TELAR) has in addition to its fire control radar TV optics and laser ranging. It could have been a purely passive engagement and US/Western intelligence might not have been able to detect associated radars? Target visible in broad daylight and easily tracked by the optics.

The electro optics and laser turret is positioned behind and above the radome of the fire control radar. In the following image just in front of the white missile nosecones.

From

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-9K37-Buk.html

 

[Jason]

The SA-11 can also be optically guided. The Transport Erector Launcher (TELAR) has in addition to its fire control radar TV optics and laser ranging. It could have been a purely passive engagement and US/Western intelligence might not have been able to detect associated radars? Target visible in broad daylight and easily tracked by the optics.

The electro optics and laser turret is positioned behind and above the radome of the fire control radar. In the following image just in front of the white missile nosecones.

From

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-9K37-Buk.html

If the optics and laser guided lock system was used would they have been able to identify the plane as being military vs commercial?

 

[Leifer]

FWIW.......

A transporter erector launcher and radar (TELAR) is the same as a TEL but also incorporates part or all of the radar system necessary for firing the missile(s). Such vehicles have the capability of being autonomous, greatly enhancing their effectiveness. With this type of system each vehicle can fight regardless of the state or presence of support vehicles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transporter_erector_launcher_and_radar

 

[Bill]

I am pretty sure that it is not even sure that the plane was shot down.

What would lead you to this conclusion?

 

[Leifer]

If the optics and laser guided lock system was used would they have been able to identify the plane as being military vs commercial?

I don't believe it is "optical" in the way a telescope visual image is.....it is optical in that it uses laser optics + radar........it's not a telescope.
.....if that's what you meant.

 

[JesseCuster]

Remember back when MH370 disappeared, there were some claims that it was hijacked by the US government to be used in a future false flag attack. Given that MH17 is also a Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 like MH370, I wonder if the same people are now backslapping each other and hooting about how they were "right" all along and this is the same plane used as a false flag operation against Russia.

 

[Leifer]

Remember back when MH370 disappeared, there were some claims that it was hijacked by the US government to be used in a future false flag attack. Given that MH17 is also a Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 like MH370, I wonder if the same people are now backslapping each other and hooting about how they were "right" all along and this is the same plane used as a false flag operation against Russia.

That will become a common conspiracy theory.
But that idea has too many explanatory problems.....too many to list here.
Coincidence is terribly unfortunate in this case, especially to the victims' relatives, who will have to endure (or filter-out) such theories, in their grieving.

 

[WeedWhacker]

That will become a common conspiracy theory.

It already has....mentioned in some posts up-thread.

 

[Jason]

I don't believe it is "optical" in the way a telescope visual image is.....it is optical in that it uses laser optics + radar........it's not a telescope.
.....if that's what you meant.

I didn't know if they had to paint the target first with their laser optics through visual means.

 

[Jason]

Remember back when MH370 disappeared, there were some claims that it was hijacked by the US government to be used in a future false flag attack. Given that MH17 is also a Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 like MH370, I wonder if the same people are now backslapping each other and hooting about how they were "right" all along and this is the same plane used as a false flag operation against Russia.

It's already a CT on the internet;

MH-17 is Really MH370

Both planes were Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777s and MH370 was never found. Case closed, right? This is similar to the World War III theory in that MH370 was allegedly stolen only to be outfitted with explosives and then detonated at the right time over a volatile eastern Ukraine, in an attempt to set off a larger conflict.

Well there you go. You can decide for yourself. But we recommend sticking with the logical and obvious explanation based on evidence.

http://www.latinopost.com/articles/...theories-on-the-internet-ukraine-credible.htm

 

[Bob Solomon]

Flight 17 was operated with a Boeing 777-2H6ER, serial number 28411, registration 9M-MRD. The 84th Boeing 777produced, it first flew on 17 July 1997, exactly 17 years before the incident, and was delivered new to Malaysia Airlines on 29 July 1997.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17

I take it that the date of the first flight is correct? MH17 and 17 years is just feeding the conspiracy theorists and 'numerologists'. Quite an unhelpful coincidence.

 

[Libertarian]

Investigators can't do their jobs, that also looks bad, no reason to defend the Russians/pro-Russians at this point.

There is no reason to defend NATO/pro-West revolutionary government in Ukraine either. This is a proxy war which the west fulmented. That some new separatists separated from the separatists that the west originally supported is what makes it very difficult to pick sides with any degree of objectivity. This is similar to when the Mohawks in south Quebec declared independence from Quebec as Quedec was voting to declare independence from Canada.

The whole thing was best left alone. But there are many powers controlling the governments of the west that want a distraction, and who will profit from a war.

 

[Jason]

This article written a day ago discusses the 4 most likely candidates for shooting down Mh-17. The Buk system or as NATO refers to the system as the SA-11 GADFLY is a very complex system requiring many components. I don't see how this system could've been used;
http://defensetech.org/2014/07/17/4...tems-that-could-shoot-down-the-malaysian-jet/

The Buk is a mobile missile system that includes a target acquisition radar vehicle, command vehicle, six transporter erector launcher and radar vehicles and three transporter erector launcher vehicles. The Buk missile batter includes two TELAR and one TEL vehicles.

A standard Buk battalion consists of a command vehicle, target acquisition radar (TAR) vehicle, six transporter erector launcher and radar (TELAR) vehicles and three transporter erector launcher (TEL) vehicles. A Buk missile battery consists of two TELAR and one TEL vehicle.

The medium range SAM system has received iterative upgrades over the years since it was first introduced in 1979. The range and capability of the system depends on the missile in use. The SA-11 was introduced in 1979 using the 9M38 missile that features a range of 3–19 miles and an altitude of 100–46,000 feet. In 1984, the SA-11 received the upgraded 9M38M1 missile which expanded the range to 22 miles and the altitude up to 72,000 feet.

The system was upgraded to the NATO designation SA-17 in 1998 when the 9M317 missile was introduced. The missile features an engagement envelope of 100–82,000 feet and 2–31 miles. The GRIZZLY also receive the third version of the target acquisition radar, which can engage 24 simultaneous targets.

There's also the older version of the buk missile system called the 2K12Kub (NATO designation: SA-6 GAINFUL).

This is Russia's medium range surface-to-air mssile system predecessor to the SA-11 and SA-17. It was an original part of the Buk missile system but it has since been phased out in favor of its successors. However, there are a few 2K12 Kub's still in existence in Russia, according to reports. It was designed in 1959 by the Soviet Union and was produced from 1964 to 1985.

It's frankly a simpler version of the SA-11 and SA-17. The mobile SAM system has a range of 2–15 miles and can hit targets traveling up to 36,000 feet.

The other 2 systems [S-400 (NATO designation: SA-21 GROWLER) & S-75A Dvina (NATO designation: SA-2 GUIDELINE)] aren't likely candidates though. The S-400 is regarded as the best missile defense system in the world and came about in 2004. The Russians only have 4 systems operational that we know of so I would check this one off the list. The ladder was made famous after shooting down U.S. pilot Gary Powers flying a U-2 spy plane, and only a handful of countries are known to have this system (Libya, Syria, and N. Korea). So I doubt the Russians handed this over to the separatist.

 

[Libertarian]

Leifer said: ↑
That will become a common conspiracy theory.
It already has....mentioned in some posts up-thread.

What about all of the people on board though? The whole manifest and their grieving families etc. Doesn't that shoot a rather big hole in this notion? I don't understand this conjecture as specifically applied to this crash. If an empty-ish plane out of no-where had been blown out of the sky and it was a similar type to the one that disapeared...OK. But...

 

[WeedWhacker]

I take it that the date of the first flight is correct?

According to AirFleets.net (which tracks such data), yes. That would have been its first flight at the factory though.

It was delivered to Malaysia Airlines on 29 July, 1997.

 

[Jason]

and who will profit from a war.

Only the Russians stand to profit in this war.

 

[Libertarian]

Only the Russians stand to profit in this war.

LOL! Ok. Ask yourself then, why is the POTUS talking up action? Because he's such a good guy? I wonder where all of that "responsibility" crap will go when Al-Queda starts knocking airliners out of the sky with the Manpads we gave them in Libya/Syria.

 

[WeedWhacker]

...why is the POTUS talking up action?

And NATO, and likely soon any other Western nation who is equally outraged by this.

 

[Gary Cook]

Does anybody know the chances that so many of the bodies are in such a seemingly decent state considering the forces involved? Well apart from being dead of course.

Also why would Russia do such a thing? Surely the only possible outcome is the world to have even more ammo for them then they already do? Quite literally.

Anyway its seems if it was Russians it was Russian Separatists and not Russian army so USA and its media are making their own conspiracy theories. Not just Russia against Ukraine.

Plus it is common knowledge that CNN and FOX often just copy what ever Reuters gives as their version of events.

Seems the Western media are not exactly doing our cause of reducing bunk any favours either in this tragic incident.

It is all a bit strange anyway. What with is going on in Gaza, Putin apparently travelling to BRICS to create a competitive currency to the dollar ETC and the plane being like the one gone missing not long ago. Too many weird coincidences for me for there not to be a more powerful hidden hand than some renegade Russians.

 

[WeedWhacker]

Does anybody know the chances that so many of the bodies are in such a seemingly decent state considering the forces involved?

The rate of impact with the ground. Take a look at cases of people who fall to their deaths from great heights. Terminal velocity.

(This was not a powered descent and impact, AKA United 93).

Ironically, there is a claim by one of those nasty rebels that the bodies are TOO decomposed, given the time involved. Deflection on his part, attempting to allege that they were "already dead"....just another ridiculous 'CT' of course, but it will appear again, have little doubt.

Source: http://www.aol.com/article/2014/07/18/rebel-leader-gives-bizarre-account-of-plane-crash/20933592/

Also, tag line:

He claimed that a large amount of blood serum and medications were found in the wreckage.

Most likely belonged to the AIDS researchers....of course, these criminal "rebels" will continue to obfuscate and imply something else, to distract.

 

[David]

That some new separatists separated from the separatists that the west originally supported is what makes it very difficult to pick sides with any degree of objectivity

I'm confused.

 

[Gary Cook]

The rate of impact with the ground. Take a look at cases of people who fall to their deaths from great heights. Terminal velocity.

(This was not a powered descent and impact, AKA United 93).

Ironically, there is a claim by one of those nasty rebels that the bodies are TOO decomposed, given the time involved. Deflection on his part, attempting to allege that they were "already dead"....just another ridiculous 'CT' of course, but it will appear again, have little doubt.

Nasty rebel? We have rules here about politeness for a reason. since I have to follow them and I am made to then I would like every other person to please.

Why kill them then? Just for fun? What is the Russian motive? They are 39th in terms of economy than the USA. They know they will get slaughtered.

Putin is gaining good support via BRICS. In humble opinion he has no need to allow this to of happened.

So IF it was a Russian it was a separatist but that's just a fact of life right now really. As sad as it is. they were above a war zone for some bizarre reason.

Back to my question, that was far to fall in a plane. I am not sure it needed to be powered for there not to be minced bodies with not much in terms of attached body parts but I am no expert. I would be good to hear from one about that.

 

[Libertarian]

I'm confused.

Yes, most of us are. If you want to know why the west supplanted the government in Ukraine and why the fellows running the Military Industrial Complex want this type of thing to happen, then this is a good place to begin: http://www.amazon.com/The-Grand-Chessboard-Geostrategic-Imperatives/dp/0465027261

Or if you want a short-cut, just read up on the term "balkanization".

 

[Gary Cook]

Yes, most of us are. If you want to know why the west supplanted the government in Ukraine and why the fellows running the Military Industrial Complex want this type of thing to happen, then this is a good place to begin: http://www.amazon.com/The-Grand-Chessboard-Geostrategic-Imperatives/dp/0465027261

Or if you want a short-cut, just read up on the term "balkanization".

Played "Balance Of Power"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_of_Power_(video_game)

Old but very good simulation of geo-politics.

 

[WeedWhacker]

Back to my question, that was far to fall in a plane. I am not sure it needed to be powered for there not to be minced bodies with not much in terms of attached body parts but I am no expert. I would be good to hear from one about that.

Terminal velocity. Those victims who were ejected as the airplane broke up will max out at various speeds in free-fall (due to atmospheric resistance).

Others will have had lacerations and such, due to impacts with debris, especially sharp edges of metal.

 

[David]

Yes, most of us are. If you want to know why the west supplanted the government in Ukraine and why the fellows running the Military Industrial Complex want this type of thing to happen, then this is a good place to begin: http://www.amazon.com/The-Grand-Chessboard-Geostrategic-Imperatives/dp/0465027261

Or if you want a short-cut, just read up on the term "balkanization".

So what happened then? Do you have an opinion on that?

 

[Gary Cook]

Terminal velocity. Those victims who were ejected as the airplane broke up will max out at various speeds in free-fall (due to atmospheric resistance).

Others will have had lacerations and such, due to impacts with debris, especially sharp edges of metal.

I dont want to embed the image here but the bodies in question were clustered by the fuselage and seemed to have most if not all limbs attached. I will send it to you in PM if you can handle it?

Actually, I think it is the one shown when they where saying the claim that the bodies were older than the alleged incident.

 

[Jason]

LOL! Ok. Ask yourself then, why is the POTUS talking up action? Because he's such a good guy? I wonder where all of that "responsibility" crap will go when Al-Queda starts knocking airliners out of the sky with the Manpads we gave them in Libya/Syria.

You said benefit, what does the US have to gain from this region of the world?

 

[Libertarian]

So what happened then? Do you have an opinion on that?

Balkanization.

Go ahead and read up on it if you want to understand it. I'm not going to attempt to paraphrase Brzezinski. He does a good job explaining his Machiavellian reasoning himself.

 

[Jason]

Does anybody know the chances that so many of the bodies are in such a seemingly decent state considering the forces involved? Well apart from being dead of course.

Can you please provide proof for this? Out of the 289 bodies I've only seen 1 photo of a guy laying on his side with a white shirt on, but now all photos of the deceased are blurred out... So how can you even make this claim...

 

[Libertarian]

You said benefit, what does the US have to gain from this region of the world?

The POTUS and his teleprompter or McCain or anyone else being up there promoting war has nothing to do with what benefits the US but rather stems from what benefits the Military Industrial Complex. You and I are not part of the benefit equation. So asking why or if something would benefit "The US" as a group of people who receive benefit from this or that is really not a relevant discussion. I wish it was...but it's not.

 

[David]

Balkanization.

Go ahead and read up on it if you want to understand it. I'm not going to attempt to paraphrase Brzezinski. He does a good job explaining his Machiavellian reasoning himself.

I'm more interested in who shot down the plane at this moment.
And why are these rebels sabotaging the investigation? Also because of the west?