MH17 Malaysian 777 Carrying 295 People Shot Down Over Ukraine

[Gridlock]

That's an interesting definition of 'terrorism' in that Telegraph article. But then the word probably lost all meaning quite some time ago.

For it to be terrorism you would have to demonstrate someone intentionally targeted civilians. That is not very likely to be the case here.

I'm one of those funny people who think language matters.

 

[Jason]

That's an interesting definition of 'terrorism' in that Telegraph article. But then the word probably lost all meaning quite some time ago.

For it to be terrorism you would have to demonstrate someone intentionally targeted civilians. That is not very likely to be the case here.

I'm one of those funny people who think language matters.

How so? If it was in fact the Buk system, doesn't the system have the ability to detect ACARS or the plane's Squawk Code so they don't make the mistake of firing on civilian aircraft. This isn't a system where one man can operate it, you have to be sufficiently trained to operate this system and it requires several personnel. Not too mention the plane was flying above the 32,000ft limit for military craft in the region. I think the Russian Separatist got a bad piece of intel, and truly thought this was a cargo plane (based on intercepted conversations), but that doesn't mean they couldn't have verified if this was cargo plane or commercial airliner before firing the missile. They surely had the capability to verify it and the buk system was able to coordinate with radar stations as well.

The Russians are culpable in this mess. The very reason why Obama and his administration didn't want to give the Syrians more advanced weaponry was in part for this reason. We know that these advanced systems can take down commercial airliners, and so do the Russians. The fact that they would give this technology to someone regardless if they fired it or not, is just irresponsible and down right ignorant.

 

[Bill]

The spainbuca (Carlos) tweets are archived here:
[Warning: Contains extremely graphic image of dead child]
https://archive.today/XtGAj

From what I read of the tweets Carlos seems to have an agenda he is trying to promote. He even talks about the Ukrainian military overthrowing the Kiev government. He sounds like someone with an axe to grind that thinks his opinion is fact.

 

[Stevan Gvozdenovic]

This isn't a system where one man can operate it, you have to be sufficiently trained to operate this system and it requires several personnel.

yeah, you have to be sufficiently trained to operate this system properly, however they have confiscated them from ukrainian army and got the chance to repel ukrainian bombers so why not use it, the civilian aircraft shouldn't overfly that area anyway, IMO shared responsibility between rebels and ukrainian authorities who let the plane fly there

 

[Soulfly]

Can't rule out the possibility there could be former soldiers that are now rebels that have had prior training in this system though.

 

[Bill]

How so? If it was in fact the Buk system, doesn't the system have the ability to detect ACARS or the plane's Squawk Code so they don't make the mistake of firing on civilian aircraft. This isn't a system where one man can operate it, you have to be sufficiently trained to operate this system and it requires several personnel. Not too mention the plane was flying above the 32,000ft limit for military craft in the region. I think the Russian Separatist got a bad piece of intel, and truly thought this was a cargo plane (based on intercepted conversations), but that doesn't mean they couldn't have verified if this was cargo plane or commercial airliner before firing the missile. They surely had the capability to verify it and the buk system was able to coordinate with radar stations as well.

The Russians are culpable in this mess. The very reason why Obama and his administration didn't want to give the Syrians more advanced weaponry was in part for this reason. We know that these advanced systems can take down commercial airliners, and so do the Russians. The fact that they would give this technology to someone regardless if they fired it or not, is just irresponsible and down right ignorant.

You are assuming that the people operating the system are competent and that it's not a system captured from the Ukrainian army. I don't think we have enough information to claim the Russians are directly responsible for this incident. I think at the moment all we can say is if the separatist did fire the missile then Russians are indirectly responsible because they are providing moral and material support to the separatist.

 

[David]

You are assuming that the people operating the system are competent and that it's not a system captured from the Ukrainian army. I don't think we have enough information to claim the Russians are directly responsible for this incident. I think at the moment all we can say is if the separatist did fire the missile then Russians are indirectly responsible because they are providing moral and material support to the separatist.

Well they hit the plane, seems like they're pretty competent.

 

[Bill]

yeah, you have to be sufficiently trained to operate this system properly, however they have confiscated them from ukrainian army and got the chance to repel ukrainian bombers so why not use it, the civilian aircraft shouldn't overfly that area anyway, IMO shared responsibility between rebels and ukrainian authorities who let the plane fly there

There's going to be plenty of blame to go around but ultimately it boils down to which side fired the missile.

 

[Bill]

Well they hit the plane, seems like they're pretty competent.

Once you get a lock on a target it's not that difficult. Being able to tell what the targets are is where the training and competence become important.

 

[Jason]

Can't rule out the possibility there could be former soldiers that are now rebels that have had prior training in this system though.

Several news agencies are reporting that the buk used or seen in the videos on the trailer are painted differently than how the Ukranian military paints them. I'm trying to find it online, been getting most of my news on the tele

 

[Jason]

Once you get a lock on a target it's not that difficult. Being able to tell what the targets are is where the training and competence become important.

Have you seen the inside of one of these;

or

Getting a lock on isn't as simple as how it appears in a video game

 

[Bill]

Have you seen the inside of one of these;

or

Getting a lock on isn't as simple as how it appears in a video game

I used to design weapons system. It's not as difficult as it looks.

 

[Soulfly]

I just can't imagine either government (Ukraine & Russian) intentionally shooting it down in a false flag against the other. Too risky and they don't need to, they are already at war. What point would it serve? I doubt either military would make the mistake of shooting it down. What we end up with is some ragtags that got overzealous with their new toy and wrecked the Bugatti down the road from the dealership.
So to speak.

 

[David]

Once you get a lock on a target it's not that difficult. Being able to tell what the targets are is where the training and competence become important.

I don't know how hard it is to get a lock on, but I do think the people operating that BUK system knew what they were doing. Not the work of amateurs imo.

 

[Jason]

I used to design weapons system. It's not as difficult as it looks.

Can this system determine if its a commercial airliner or military? They are also used in conjunction with a radar station from what I understand or radar dome;

so they can detect mutlitple targets at once.

 

[Soulfly]

Have you seen the inside of one of these;

or

Getting a lock on isn't as simple as how it appears in a video game

Unless you get trained in a simulator. j/s

 

[Jason]

Unless you get trained in a simulator. j/s

I agree, but rebels aren't going to have multimillion dollar simulators available to them, and thats where the Russians come into play with regards to training them... I would think, and I'm not an expert in military training, but there would be a HUGE emphasis on how to acquire targets, so that they don't incorrectly target a commercial or civilian plane..

 

[Bill]

Can this system determine if its a commercial airliner or military? They are also used in conjunction with a radar station from what I understand or radar dome;

so they can detect mutlitple targets at once.

That is where training and competence becomes an issue. It's quite possible the separatist have been given enough knowledge to operate the system but that the trainers never foresaw the possibility of a civilian airliner in a war zone and didn't bother to teach all of features contained in the system. The operators may have carried out procedures they were trained for but lacked the competence to use the system to it's fullest capability. Or there may have been one former member of the Ukrainian army instructing separatist that wasn't up to the workload and misidentified the target. I can think up several scenarios that don't require this to be an intentional attack on a civilian aircraft or direct responsibility. I don't think we currently have enough information to make a determination.

 

[David]

I don't think we currently have enough information to make a determination.

I agree, and I wonder how much of the evidence is messed with.

This doesn't look good.

 

[El Duderino]

Of course this would be the first paragraph from an article from RT on the incident:

"Some Western states and Kiev rushed to find Russian involvement in the MH17 crash having no evidence to back their claims, Russia’s Deputy Defense Minister told RT. He invited Ukraine to answer 10 questions to prove their commitment to an impartial probe."

http://rt.com/news/173976-mh17-crash-questions-ukraine/

It seems every news source I check is hinting towards the Russian backed rebels being the perpetrators, except for, you know, RT.

 

[Pete Tar]

From what I read of the tweets Carlos seems to have an agenda he is trying to promote. He even talks about the Ukrainian military overthrowing the Kiev government. He sounds like someone with an axe to grind that thinks his opinion is fact.

I think the tweets and his job are for real, but the only thing they show is that the Ukrainian military were quick on the ball when it was clear there was about to be an international incident, it doesn't show they must have done it, the rest is his opinion.

They then highlight that the airspace was already known to be restricted as published by the WSJ here:

But it wasn't, the graphic clearly says that.

How do the Ukrainians get a Buk system into rebel-held territory (and back out again) without anyone noticing?

As soulfly said above, how could the Ukranians have gotten a buk system into russian separatist territory, then fired a rocket to hit the plane, and leave the territory without being noticed.

But they did get noticed.
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.nl/2014/07/russian-transport-of-buk-into-ukraine.html

 

[Jason]

I think the tweets and his job are for real, but the only thing they show is that the Ukrainian military were quick on the ball when it was clear there was about to be an international incident, it doesn't show they must have done it, the rest is his opinion.

But it wasn't, the graphic clearly says that.





But they did get noticed.
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.nl/2014/07/russian-transport-of-buk-into-ukraine.html

What he was trying to explain was how could the Ukranians sneak a Buk system into Russian separatist territory and fire off a SAM and then sneak out of that territory without being seen. Since we know the rocket, according to US officials, originated in Russian separatist territory. Which dispels the argument that Ukranians did it from writhing their territory.

 

[Bill]

CNN's experts giving conflicting info as usual. I just heard on talk about how complex the BUK system is to operate and then is the same breath talk about how simplistic the system is. He also said the BUK lacks the ability to differentiate between military and civilian aircraft. It just gets a radar blip.

 

[Pete Tar]

There are also doubts spoken out, that that the unnamed “militia member” from the third tape segment could distinguish “Malaysia Airlines” marking on the aircraft as it was turned into rubble by the crash and fell down in small pieces scattered around a large territory.http://rt.com/news/173964-ukraine-malaysia-intercepted-calls/

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Well that's a pretty pathetic attempt RT.

Pieces of the plane were scattered across the road and field: a seat back with its television display cracked; a giant white piece of the tail with the plane’s insignia emblazoned on it,
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/18/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-plane-leaves-trail-of-debris.html

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Large chunks of the Boeing 777 that bore the airline’s red, white and blue markings lay strewn over one field.

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[Jason]

CNN's experts giving conflicting info as usual. I just heard on talk about how complex the BUK system is to operate and then is the same breath talk about how simplistic the system is. He also said the BUK lacks the ability to differentiate between military and civilian aircraft. It just gets a radar blip.

Since you designed or built weapon systems can you explain something. I've heard conflicting reports as well regarding the different missiles used. Can a Buk system fire a SA-11 or a SA-20. It seems like this is what US officials are think was used but I keep hearing about the Buk system as a weapon

 

[Jason]

There are also doubts spoken out, that that the unnamed “militia member” from the third tape segment could distinguish “Malaysia Airlines” marking on the aircraft as it was turned into rubble by the crash and fell down in small pieces scattered around a large territory.http://rt.com/news/173964-ukraine-malaysia-intercepted-calls/

Content from External Source

Well that's a pretty pathetic attempt RT.

Pieces of the plane were scattered across the road and field: a seat back with its television display cracked; a giant white piece of the tail with the plane’s insignia emblazoned on it,
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/18/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-plane-leaves-trail-of-debris.html

Content from External Source

Large chunks of the Boeing 777 that bore the airline’s red, white and blue markings lay strewn over one field.

Content from External Source

And I doubt people in that region are going to respect the dead and their belongings. I wonder how much will be looted in the coming days (money, ID, passports, credit cards, and other stuff that survived the crash).

 

[Pete Tar]

It looks like the Ukraine has the recorders for now.

http://rt.com/news/173820-ukraine-plane-black-boxes/
The Ukrainian emergency services have found two flight recorders at the Malaysian plane’s crash site, Konstantin Batozsky, an adviser to the Donetsk regional administration, said.

“Two flight recorders have been discovered by our emergency services. I have no information about where those flight recorders are at the moment,” Batozsky is cited by Interfax-Ukraine.

Previously, the self-defense forces of the People’s Republic of Donetsk announced that they had found the Malaysia Airlines MH17 flight recorders.

However, the self-proclaimed republic’s prime minister, Aleksandr Boroday, later said that he can’t confirm this information.

“The items, which were earlier discovered by our troops, most likely, aren’t flight recorders,” Boroday is cited by Interfax.

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[Jason]

It looks like the Ukraine has the recorders for now.

http://rt.com/news/173820-ukraine-plane-black-boxes/
The Ukrainian emergency services have found two flight recorders at the Malaysian plane’s crash site, Konstantin Batozsky, an adviser to the Donetsk regional administration, said.

“Two flight recorders have been discovered by our emergency services. I have no information about where those flight recorders are at the moment,” Batozsky is cited by Interfax-Ukraine.

Previously, the self-defense forces of the People’s Republic of Donetsk announced that they had found the Malaysia Airlines MH17 flight recorders.

However, the self-proclaimed republic’s prime minister, Aleksandr Boroday, later said that he can’t confirm this information.

“The items, which were earlier discovered by our troops, most likely, aren’t flight recorders,” Boroday is cited by Interfax.

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I've been hearing reports all day that 8 recorders have been recovered and sent to Russia on TV. Is there any truth to this Pete?

 

[Pete Tar]

And I doubt people in that region are going to respect the dead and their belongings. I wonder how much will be looted in the coming days (money, ID, passports, credit cards, and other stuff that survived the crash).

That's a bit unfair, I'm sure they are respectful and moved by the disaster even more than we are and just want to help.

 

[Bill]

Since you designed or built weapon systems can you explain something. I've heard conflicting reports as well regarding the different missiles used. Can a Buk system fire a SA-11 or a SA-20. It seems like this is what US officials are think was used but I keep hearing about the Buk system as a weapon

What I keep seeing on the news is the SA-11. The system requires two vehicles, radar and launch, and the system as a whole is considered a weapon. The SA-20 is a larger launch vehicle with four launch tubes. The missiles themselves are not visible before launch. It also has a separate radar vehicle. The two systems look nothing alike.

 

[Jason]

What I keep seeing on the news is the SA-11. The system requires two vehicles, radar and launch, and the system as a whole is considered a weapon. The SA-20 is a large vehicle with four launch tubes. The missiles themselves are not visible before launch.

So it's not a Buk system then, right?

 

[Pete Tar]

I've been hearing reports all day that 8 recorders have been recovered and sent to Russia on TV. Is there any truth to this Pete?

Don't know, as I may be looking at old news reports that have been superseded by newer information.
But I think as of the moment it is correct. (that Ukraine have the two recorders now)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/malays...s-ukraine-ceasefire-for-crash-probe-1.2710774
"No black boxes have been found … we hope that experts will track them down and create a picture of what has happened," Donetsk separatist leader Aleksandr Borodai said.

Yet earlier Friday, an aide to the military leader of Borodai's group said authorities had recovered eight out of 12 recording devices. Since planes usually have two black boxes — one for recording flight data and the other for recording cockpit voices — it wasn't clear what the aide was referring to.

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They thought they had them, it turned out they don't, now Ukraine does.
Which is now why Russia is making statements about the importance of open investigation and a neutral party to take possession of them.

 

[Jason]

That's a bit unfair, I'm sure they are respectful and moved by the disaster even more than we are and just want to help.

Might be unfair but is a possibility.

 

[Stevan Gvozdenovic]

That is where training and competence becomes an issue. It's quite possible the separatist have been given enough knowledge to operate the system but that the trainers never foresaw the possibility of a civilian airliner in a war zone and didn't bother to teach all of features contained in the system. The operators may have carried out procedures they were trained for but lacked the competence to use the system to it's fullest capability. Or there may have been one former member of the Ukrainian army instructing separatist that wasn't up to the workload and misidentified the target. I can think up several scenarios that don't require this to be an intentional attack on a civilian aircraft or direct responsibility. I don't think we currently have enough information to make a determination.

this post should be copied all over the Internet as there is no other explanation around that is as sound as this one

btw rebels are clumsy even in hiding evidence, it seems noone told them there is a thing called web cache... maybe it was smarter for them to confess they have mistakenly shot it down but they didn't have means to properly identify the target yet had to defend themselves from government military planes, it was a middle of very active war-zone and they are not the only ones to blame here

 

[Landru]

]ason, post:
so it's not a Buk system then, right?

Buk system on Wikipedia http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

The system shoots SA-11 and SA-17. took me 10 seconds to research.

 

[Pete Tar]

btw rebels are clumsy even in hiding evidence, it seems noone told them there is a thing called web cache...

So is there hard evidence of the statements they had possession of buk missiles, and the boast about downing a transport, that can definitively be traced to them?

 

[Jason]

this post should be copied all over the Internet as there is no other explanation around that is as sound as this one

btw rebels are clumsy even in hiding evidence, it seems noone told them there is a thing called web cache... maybe it was smarter for them to confess they have mistakenly shot it down but they didn't have means to properly identify the target yet had to defend themselves from government military planes, it was a middle of very active war-zone and they are not the only ones to blame here

Why should they even be shooting down government cargo plains carrying supplies and troops though in Ukranian territory. I could somewhat understand a mistake if these plains crossed over the Russian border but this plane and 2 others in the last week were shot down in the Ukrane.

 

[David]

this post should be copied all over the Internet as there is no other explanation around that is as sound as this one

btw rebels are clumsy even in hiding evidence, it seems noone told them there is a thing called web cache... maybe it was smarter for them to confess they have mistakenly shot it down but they didn't have means to properly identify the target yet had to defend themselves from government military planes, it was a middle of very active war-zone and they are not the only ones to blame here

Even if it's a mistake, then they are still the only ones to blame.

 

[Pete Tar]

So is there hard evidence of the statements they had possession of buk missiles, and the boast about downing a transport, that can definitively be traced to them?

Actually nevermind, I'm reading the article that shows it. Pretty damning I'd say.
http://www.interpretermag.com/was-col-strelkovs-dispatch-about-a-downed-ukrainian-plane-authentic/

 

[WeedWhacker]

Might be unfair but is a possibility.

These rebels are a nasty group:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/mh17-crash-pro-russia-rebels-block-access-ukraine

MH17: rebels block access to part of site of crash as evidence against them grows
First OSCE investigators to the scene retreat after hour-long standoff with armed separatists who fired warning shots

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A video embedded in this article mentions "evidence of looting".\:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/07/18/malaysian-airlines-mh17-crash/12825433/