MH17 Malaysian 777 Carrying 295 People Shot Down Over Ukraine

[jonnyH]

it was unlikly Russia like the western media are claiming.

The suspicious thing is that the western media and governments are blaming Russia

Is this really what the western media and governments are saying? A supporting link or two wouldn't go amiss.

 

[Leifer]

What about all of the people on board though? The whole manifest and their grieving families etc. Doesn't that shoot a rather big hole in this notion? I don't understand this conjecture as specifically applied to this crash. If an empty-ish plane out of no-where had been blown out of the sky and it was a similar type to the one that disapeared...OK. But...

Yes, correct....I was pointing to these same things, but without detail. (maybe for another thread)

 

[Gary Cook]

The sections of the fuselage that stay together with passengers inside will impact the ground with roughly the same force that free-falling bodies will, so are more likely to be protected from damage by their seats etc.

Their seats seemed to have survived less than the bodies did but anyway. I was just asking for opinions and I got some. Cool.

I would rather focus on the motive. I dont find it is explored enough on this forum in general. In fact it is usually completely disregarded, even banned. IMHO.

 

[WeedWhacker]

If he is reading from his teleprompter there is a reason.

Oh, sheesh!! Because there are speeches to make? But, Bush Jr., Sr.....Reagan....Carter, Clinton? Just when do you think the
"Telepromptr" (or, teleprompter...seen both spellings) was invented, anyway??

 

[Landru]

Their seats seemed to have survived less than the bodies did but anyway. I was just asking for opinions and I got some. Cool.

I would rather focus on the motive. I dont find it is explored enough on this forum in general. In fact it is usually completely disregarded, even banned. IMHO.

The motive was to shoot down (so far) a Ukrainian military transport plane. They screwed up.

 

[Jason]

No it is not absurd at all. It is much more absurd to not ask one-self why Obama is not golfing. If he is reading from his teleprompter there is a reason. And I'm not naive enough to believe it is his deep down desire to pour his heart out.

He'd rather be golfing. So who paid for him to change course and stir everyone up?

How did he change course and stir everyone up?

 

[WeedWhacker]

Why couldnt it be? Just asking.

Why couldn't "what" be?

 

[SR1419]

I think Gary was referring to the BRICS dollar alternative currency system which was just announced. He mentioned it earlier. It is common knowledge. Just google "BRICS Currency basket".

You are misinterpreting what was just announced. They announced an import export bank to finance infrastructure projects- an alternative to the World Bank- not a new currency system.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/brics-agree-to-base-development-bank-in-shanghai-1405453660

FORTALEZA, Brazil—The leaders of the Brics countries took another step toward carving a larger role for themselves in the global financial system when they agreed Tuesday to base a new development bank in Shanghai.

 

[Gary Cook]

Again gary, there were almost 300 people onboard that plane and your basing this this assumption on one photo of 1 or 2 people laying on the ground by the fuselage. Do you understand the undertaking this would ential to fake the plane crash while the entire world is watching.

Was you watching the event? I wasnt.

 

[Pete Tar]

And you didnt even try to explain why Russia would commit political suicide like that. Because you cant.

No-one actually thinks Russia deliberately shot down an airliner - most people are of the opinion Russia was encouraging the rebels, gave them heavy artillery to win against government forces in Ukraine, and the rebels made a mistake, and now Russia is determined to to hide exactly how much aid they have been giving them because it makes them partially responsible.
Simple.

Luggage is very tightly packed and often held down together. That could be from the same pallets for all we know and broke on impact. Its hardly the same as a cluster of bodies none looking like they have lost limbs but I admit its not easy to see.

People sitting in rows of seats would cluster together.

 

[Libertarian]

Oh, sheesh!! Because there are speeches to make? But, Bush Jr., Sr.....Reagan....Carter, Clinton?

Why do you keep bringing out previous presidents? If precedent somehow absolves a current elected representative from of acting in the best interests of their constituents, then perhaps I could see the relevance of citing precedent. But it doesn't. So I don't.

 

[Gary Cook]

You are misinterpreting what was just announced. They announced the a import export bank- an alternative to the World Bank- not a new currency system.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/brics-agree-to-base-development-bank-in-shanghai-1405453660

FORTALEZA, Brazil—The leaders of the Brics countries took another step toward carving a larger role for themselves in the global financial system when they agreed Tuesday to base a new development bank in Shanghai.

Sorry I heard it from somebody at BRICS that it was more than that but I did say etc and its clearly a threat to western oligarchs. And as America is run by the Oligarchs its not a stretch to think they would use American resources to take action.

 

[Pete Tar]

The deaths and trajedies that we are supposed to care about are carefully selected. I'm interested in why they are selected, because I've read Brzezinski et al. I want to know why I'm being pointed at a given thing and told to emotionally connect to it. I am especially concerned about asking who will benefit by my emotional connection. IE who paid to point me there. The media does not work for free.

Are you honestly saying a civilian airliner being shot down is not a story that people would be interested in UNLESS SOMEONE PAID THE MEDIA TO PROMOTE IT? Insane.

 

[Libertarian]

No-one actually thinks Russia deliberately shot down an airliner - most people are of the opinion Russia was encouraging the rebels, gave them heavy artillery to win against government forces in Ukraine, and the rebels made a mistake, and now Russia is determined to to hide exactly how much aid they have been giving them because it makes them partially responsible.
Simple.

Precisely. Just the same way that all of the heavy artillery given to Al-Queda to win against Assad got turned around and ended up in Iraq. Same geopolitical wrangling...and with a detrimental result. But we are not talking about all of the horrors in Iraq any more, are we? We are talking about big bad Russia over in the Ukraine. Oh! I wonder why? LOL!

 

[Leifer]

Many people remove their seatbelts in mid-flight. They would become airborne if the fuselage was ripped open.

 

[Gary Cook]

No-one actually thinks Russia deliberately shot down an airliner - most people are of the opinion Russia was encouraging the rebels, gave them heavy artillery to win against government forces in Ukraine, and the rebels made a mistake, and now Russia is determined to to hide exactly how much aid they have been giving them because it makes them partially responsible.
Simple.



People sitting in rows of seats would cluster together.

I will have to agree with you on that. I thought it was more than just an assumption by the west but it turns out it is more Russia making claims and placing blame at the moment.

To be fair, the over-arching conspiracy theory is that the west and east are both controlled by the same forces essentially. Which isnt debunked anywhere here because it is impossible for us to disprove or debunk that properly.

 

[David]

Was you watching the event? I wasnt.

Do you think all those families and friends or the victims are fake then?
People that saw them go on those planes?

 

[Jason]

Was you watching the event? I wasnt.

I was wAtching the live news feeds after it crashes with toilet paper streaming down from the dark smoke clouds. But again how can you proclaim all the bodies are intact and look like they are in good condition based on 1 photo of 1 or 2 people. The fact is I heard reporting all day long talking about body parts being recovered and what a nightmare of a scene it looked like. The truth is we just don't have enough information yet to say anything about the condition of all the passenger's bodies.

 

[Libertarian]

Are you honestly saying a civilian airliner being shot down is not a story that people would be interested in UNLESS SOMEONE PAID THE MEDIA TO PROMOTE IT? Insane.

Nope, I'm just saying that this particular disaster is politically worthy of hype. And thus the political hype. I don't like being hyped. So I take a more objective and distanced approach to analysis, and avoid the MSM's coverage if I can.

 

[Gary Cook]

Why couldn't "what" be?

Why couldnt it be the plane that went missing? Your link doesnt really explain why it wasnt from what I can see. Its basically a list of insulting ad homs.

 

[WeedWhacker]

and avoid the MSM's coverage if I can.

And thus have a biased one-sided view of events. BTW, the Fox Network is part of MSM.

 

[David]

Nope, I'm just saying that this particular disaster is politically worthy of hype. And thus the political hype. I don't like being hyped. So I take a more objective and distanced approach to analysis, and avoid the MSM's coverage if I can.

And still you come up with crazy ideas.

 

[Gary Cook]

Do you think all those families and friends or the victims are fake then?
People that saw them go on those planes?

I didnt say that. No need to be belligerent.

 

[BombDr]

Their seats seemed to have survived less than the bodies did but anyway. I was just asking for opinions and I got some. Cool.

I would rather focus on the motive. I dont find it is explored enough on this forum in general. In fact it is usually completely disregarded, even banned. IMHO.

I see what you mean, but you, like the rest of us, have actually seen so little of the crash site, and in terms of news 'picture quality' for emotional impact, they tend to focus on something recognisable like a logo, seat, wheel, engine, personal possession, etc, and there are few shots or fleeting video of 'unidentifiable mangled parts of something'.

For years this was the go-to photo to illustrate Lockerbie.

I imagine there will be an image that will be constantly re-used for MH17 too.

 

[WeedWhacker]

Why couldnt it be the plane that went missing?

Airplanes are very carefully documented...their complete histories, from the time the first part is put into place until first flight and delivery to the first customer....subsequent sales and purchases, etc.

The serial number of these two airplanes are thoroughly documented too. MUCH of this is already covered in the MH370 speculation thread.

MH370 S/N was 28420

MH17 S/N was 28411

Their registration numbers were different of course, as well. There will be an UNBROKEN flight record history of Serial number 28411 for the last months, even years.

 

[Gary Cook]

The motive was to shoot down (so far) a Ukrainian military transport plane. They screwed up.

Ok that makes sense, thanks. But the Western intentions of retribution are very concerning.

 

[David]

I didnt say that. No need to be belligerent.

But come on man, you're talking about fake bodies, why would you even think that?

 

[Libertarian]

Libertarian said: ↑
and avoid the MSM's coverage if I can.
And thus have a biased one-sided view of events. BTW, the Fox Network is part of MSM.

Why are you talking about Fox? Do you pride yourself on being on a side or something? I do not. And I am not on anyone's side. Especially as it involves the likes of corrupt politicians like Obama and Putin.

I suspect your notion of me being "one-sided" stems from being so yourself. But I don't know you nearly well enough to call you one-sided.

 

[Gary Cook]

Airplanes are very carefully documented...their complete histories, from the time the first part is put into place until first flight and delivery to the first customer....subsequent sales and purchases, etc.

The serial number of these two airplanes are thoroughly documented too. MUCH of this is already covered in the MH370 speculaion thread.

What does that prove? Cant they have been faked? I dont disagree that it is unlikely but this forum is about evidence of course and I dont see none or much in that link your provided. It was basically just insulting people.

 

[Gary Cook]

Why are you talking about Fox? Do you pride yourself on being on a side or something? I do not. And I am not on anyone's side. Especially as it involves the likes of corrupt politicians like Obama and Putin.

I suspect your notion of me being "one-sided" stems from being so yourself. But I don't know you nearly well enough to call you one-sided.

You make the most sense to me here in terms of talking about motives and how things really are. If not scientific understanding like some.

Statists stick together and are a threat to anybody that isnt a statist.

 

[Landru]

What does that prove? Cant they have been faked? I dont disagree that it may be likely but this forum is about evidence of course and I dont see none or much in that link your provided. It was basically just insulting people.

There's no proof of fake bodies. If you have some post it.

 

[Gary Cook]

But come on man, you're talking about fake bodies, why would you even think that?

I never said there was. I am just discussing the likely-hood of any bodies surviving the crash relatively undamaged.

 

[WeedWhacker]

What does that prove? Cant they have been faked?

No. It seems that you may not have a full understanding of how modern aviation actually works.

You know, there's an old joke: A flight could not take-off until all of the paperwork documentation back on the ground was at least as heavy as the airplane.

Joke aside, even in the age of mostly digital record-keeping, there is still a HUGE paper trail in every airline business. Paper records of EACH time ship Serial Number 28411 flew, and every city....every time any maintenance was performed....each of these locations keep their own digital and paper records...for AT LEAST six months, sometimes longer.

The ACARS and other electronic devices are specific to identify each individual airplane. It goes on and on and on.....

 

[Jason]

Nope, I'm just saying that this particular disaster is politically worthy of hype. And thus the political hype. I don't like being hyped. So I take a more objective and distanced approach to analysis, and avoid the MSM's coverage if I can.

So you go about not being "hyped" and "distance" yourself by coming onto a forum and infer this is world domination on the part of Obama and western civilization..

 

[Gary Cook]

There is a link I cant find now about

But come on man, you're talking about fake bodies, why would you even think that?

Why wouldn't I? False flags are not unprecedented. Hell, look what America is supporting against Gaza. Its a terrible week for humanity.

Some people here seem to be claiming it wasnt the same plane that went missing but cant prove it wasnt 100%. We cant claim what we dont know to be true. I dont. At least if I do I correct it when highlighted.

 

[Mick West]

Please avoid personal characterizations here people. Hit the "Report" button under a post if you don't like it it.

 

[Gary Cook]

No. It seems that you may not have a full understanding of how modern aviation actually works.

You know, there's an old joke: A flight could not take-off until all of the paperwork documentation back on the ground was at least as heavy as the airplane.

Joke aside, even in the age of mostly digital record-keeping, there is still a HUGE paper trail in every airline business. Paper records of EACH time ship Serial Number 28411 flew, and every city....every time any maintenance was performed....each of these locations keep their own digital and paper records...for AT LEAST six months, sometimes longer.

The ACARS and other electronic devices are specific to identify each individual airplane. It goes on and on and on.....

Cant this ACARS be hacked theoretically? Surely everything can be hacked?

 

[Mick West]

And arguments along the lines of "that is the type of thing that I think they do" have no place here. Actual evidence only please.

 

[David]

There is a link I cant find now about


Why wouldn't I? False flags are not unprecedented. Hell, look what America is supporting against Gaza. Its a terrible week for humanity.

Some people here seem to be claiming it wasnt the same plane that went missing but cant prove it wasnt 100%. We cant claim what we dont know to be true. I dont. At least if I do I correct it when highlighted.

Check this list for fake names then.

http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/con...s/mas/PDF/MH17/MH17 PAX AND CREW MANIFEST.pdf

 

[Libertarian]

So you go about not being "hyped" and "distance" yourself by coming onto a forum and infer this is world domination on the part of Obama and western civilization..

Do you think that people like Obama are not used in plans of geopolitical domination? You should read "The Grand Chessboard." It would really serve you well. It was authored by Carter's National Security Advisor. He really knows this region very very well. And he's a cold operator. Methodical and cold.