MH17 Malaysian 777 Carrying 295 People Shot Down Over Ukraine

[TWCobra]

The photos I have seen show an unburnt nose and tail section, and the burnt out mid section. The mid section us where the fuel is located.

This suggests to me that the aircraft broke up after the missile strike, possibly due to aerodynamic and centrifugal forces associated with, say a wing falling off. The aircraft would have had a true airspeed of almost 1000 km/h and the laws of physics means the wreckage gets spread over a wide area in this case.

With an aircraft in early cruise, many people including the flight attendants would have been out of their seats. Many of them would have been thrown out of the disintegrating fuselage and fallen at terminal velocity. Many would also have been still in their seats.

 

[Jason]

The POTUS and his teleprompter or McCain or anyone else being up there promoting war has nothing to do with what benefits the US but rather what benefits the Military Industrial Complex. You and I are not part of the benefit equation. So asking why or if something would benefit "The US" as if that is a group of people who receive benefits from this or that is really not a relevant discussion unfortunately. I wish it was...but it's not.

So you believe there is a real Proxy war going on in the region, and that this event was staged or possibly a false flag.

 

[WeedWhacker]

I dont want to embed the image here but the bodies in question were clustered by the fuselage and seemed to have most if not all limbs attached.

BTW, a large piece of fuselage debris will have a lower terminal velocity than a single human body, due to the surface area.

For a human in free-fall, Tv is 125 to about 210 MPH...whether the person is spread-eagle (slowest) or in a "bullet" position...head down.

This is well understood from skydiving science.

 

[Jason]

I'm more interested in who shot down the plane at this moment.
And why are these rebels sabotaging the investigation? Also because of the west?

David, I think it's quite clear that the Russian Separatist shot down the plane as witnessed by their behavior. They tweeted they just shot down a military plane at the same time MH-17 went missing, and then deleted it moments later once they realized they shot down a passenger jet

 

[Bill]

Yes, most of us are. If you want to know why the west supplanted the government in Ukraine and why the fellows running the Military Industrial Complex want this type of thing to happen, then this is a good place to begin: http://www.amazon.com/The-Grand-Chessboard-Geostrategic-Imperatives/dp/0465027261

Or if you want a short-cut, just read up on the term "balkanization".

America and the west are not the ones that keep talking about restoring the empire.

 

[David]

David, I think it's quite clear that the Russian Separatist shot down the plane as witnessed by their behavior. They tweeted they just shot down a military plane at the same time MH-17 went missing, and then deleted it moments later once they realized they shot down a passenger jet

That's what I think too, but it seems not everybody agrees with that.

 

[Jason]

I dont want to embed the image here but the bodies in question were clustered by the fuselage and seemed to have most if not all limbs attached. I will send it to you in PM if you can handle it?

But falling to the ground doesn't necessarily equate to body parts getting dislodged. Many suicide jumpers will jump from buildings or cliffs, and their bodies will be intact with obvious cuts and broken bones..

 

[Gary Cook]

Can you please provide proof for this? Out of the 289 bodies I've only seen 1 photo of a guy laying on his side with a white shirt on, but now all photos of the deceased are blurred out... So how can you even make this claim...

Yes I think that is the one. My point is they should all be practically pulverised. But I dont know of the forces involved so I wanted to know if anybody here did. If they fell out before impact as claimed above why are there so many clustered together with a big part of the plane it seems. Even the metal is in a really messed up way. how can the metal be so messed up but not the bodies. Just curious.

My main point of contention would be the even if it wasnt some staged thing it was unlikly Russia like the western media are claiming. At least not any Russian government intention. There just isnt any real motive to compared to what they will have lost and what they were gaining at BRICS.

Why should the whole of Russia and western tax payers have to pay a 'heavy price' for something they were not responsible for.

 

[Jason]

I dont want to embed the image here but the bodies in question were clustered by the fuselage and seemed to have most if not all limbs attached. I will send it to you in PM if you can handle it?

Actually, I think it is the one shown when they where saying the claim that the bodies were older than the alleged incident.

do you have the article for this, can you please cite it.

 

[Libertarian]

I'm more interested in who shot down the plane at this moment. And why are these rebels sabotaging the investigation? Also because of the west?

Why are you concerned with who shot it down? Assuming it was separatist rebels, which it appears to have been at this time, then what? Are you prepared to ask yourself why the separatists are rebelling? During the last separatist rebellions we called it "protesting" and we were all "Rah Rah Rah" about it in the media. This time not so much. We shouldn't be there at all. If we had never been, would this war have happened?

The region has been successfully balkanized. Brzezinski's forecast for the future true here. And he laid out a plan for what comes next also. Go ahead and read him if you want to...but I think you don't. Which is fine. Just don't ask me to explain why he loves balkanization so much. I don't know. It seems sick and twisted to me.

 

[Jason]

Yes I think that is the one. My point is they should all be practically pulverised. But I dont know of the forced involved so I wanted to know if anybody here did. If they fell out before impact as claimed above why are there so many clustered together with a big part of the plane it seems. Even the metal is in a really messed up way. how can the metal be so messed up but not the bodies. Just curious.

My main point of contention would be the even if it wasnt some staged thing it was unlikly Russia like the western media are claiming. At least not any Russian government intention. There just isnt any real motive to compared to what they will have lost and what they were gaining at BRICS.

Why should the whole of Russia and western tax payers have to pay a 'heavy price' for something they were not responsible for.

This man survives falling from 15000 ft after his parachute wouldn't open. He didn't even break a bone. But the point is it depends on how they fell. If it was straight down, or possible in the fuselage area and it spun as it fall or created drag slowing its descent. We just don't know at this point...

 

[WeedWhacker]

The POTUS and his teleprompter or McCain...

...and his teleprompter, or Ronald Reagan and his...or both of the Bushes.....etc.

 

[Pete Tar]

My point is they should all be practically pulverised. But I dont know of the forced involved so I wanted to know if anybody here did. If they fell out before impact as claimed above why are there so many clustered together with a big part of the plane it seems.

Because not every single person would have fallen out, which was NOT claimed above, he said this -

Many of them would have been thrown out of the disintegrating fuselage and fallen at terminal velocity. Many would also have been still in their seats.

You aren't listening, then you're inventing anomalies and 'well that looks wrong' based on gaps in your knowledge. Don't.

 

[David]

Why are you concerned with who shot it down?

Wow, why would I take you serious after that question?

 

[Libertarian]

So you believe there is a real Proxy war going on in the region, and that this event was staged or possibly a false flag.

Of course there is a real proxy war going on in the region. I don't think any of us think differently, do we? Or are there some of us that haven't read any history books at all?

I have no idea whether it was staged or possibly a false flag. The speed with which the Ukrainian military responded to the threat to their airspace makes me envy the Ukraine, given 9/11 and our own defense institutions' response times. Perhaps we should fire all of the expensive defense people we have engaged in NORAD, and hire some of the Ukrainian rabble instead.

 

[Libertarian]

Why are you concerned with who shot it down?
Wow, why would I take you serious after that question?

Do you even know why you are concerned? I understand that you were told to be concerned. But do you know why you were? It sounds to me like you do not. Which makes you a perfect subject, I suppose...but I don't see it helping you out in understanding this issue or why it happened.

People like Brzezinski don't give a crap about a few hundred people or even a few hundred thousand people dying. It's all about the "Grand Chessboard".

So if you aren't willing or able to ask why you were encouraged to get excited, or whether there was motive involved in that encouragement, then yes, we shouldn't bother discussing this.

 

[Jason]

Why are you concerned with who shot it down? Assuming it was separatist rebels, which it appears to have been at this time, then what? Are you prepared to ask yourself why the separatists are rebelling? During the last separatist rebellions we called it "protesting" and we were all "Rah Rah Rah" about it in the media. This time not so much. We shouldn't be there at all. If we had never been, would this war have happened?

The region has been successfully balkanized. Brzezinski's forecast for the future true here. And he laid out a plan for what comes next also. Go ahead and read him if you want to...but I think you don't. Which is fine. Just don't ask me to explain why he loves balkanization so much. I don't know. It seems sick and twisted to me.

Does this article explain it well enough? http://orientalreview.org/2014/06/23/the-reverse-brzezinski-the-ultimate-eurasian-dilemma-ii/ The call it the reverse brzezinski, and I'm just trying to read up on it..

 

[Gary Cook]

Because not every single person would have fallen out, which was NOT claimed above, he said this -



You aren't listening, then you're inventing anomalies and 'well that looks wrong' based on gaps in your knowledge. Don't.

Dont tell me what to do. That is rude.

And if that was the case thats even more suspicious. Bodies in the plane would of been even more damaged and the ones fallen out would unlikely be clustered together with the plane so close together and in such number, surely.

Anyway, like I said, it is not the most suspicious thing. The suspicious thing is that the western media and governments are blaming Russia. I guess you guys want to be caught up in WW3. Well guess what. I dont.

 

[WeedWhacker]

The speed with which the Ukrainian military responded to the threat to their airspace makes me envy the Ukraine, given 9/11

Rubbish. This was a SNAFU of the highest description, and there were roughly TWO dozen other airliners, all along that general route, during a several hour time-span.

Again, the rabbit-hole of "conspiracy" thinking is far too easy to get trapped in.

 

[David]

Do you even know why you are concerned? I understand that you were told to be concerned. But do you know why you were? It sounds to me like you do not. Which makes you a perfect subject, I suppose...but I don't see it helping you out in understanding this issue or why it happened.

People like Brzezinski don't give a crap about a few hundred people or even a few hundred thousand people dying. It's all about the "Grand Chessboard".

So if you aren't willing or able to ask why you were encouraged to get excited, or whether there was motive involved in that encouragement, then yes, we shouldn't bother discussing this.

I'm from the Netherlands and I'm very interested in what happened. A lot of people got killed, pretty dumb to say I shouldn't care.

 

[Gary Cook]

Rubbish. This was a SNAFU of the highest description, and there were roughly TWO dozen other airliners, all along that general route, during a several hour time-span.

Again, the rabbit-hole of "conspiracy" thinking is far too easy to get trapped in.

You are being biased, with all due respect. The most obvious conspiracy theory is that 'Russia did it'. But I don't see you writing about that.

 

[David]

Dont tell me what to do. That is rude.

And if that was the case thats even more suspicious. Bodies in the plane would of been even more damaged and the ones fallen out would unlikely be clustered together with the plane so close together and in such number, surely.

Anyway, like I said, it is not the most suspicious thing. The suspicious thing is that the western media and governments are blaming Russia. I guess you guys want to be caught up in WW3. Well guess what. I dont.

So somebody planted those bodies there after the crash?

 

[Gary Cook]

So somebody planted those bodies there after the crash?

Well there is at least one guy actually there that is claiming that. I am just saying that I find it mildly suspicious but not as suspicious as the conspiracy theory coming from western media and government that Russia did it. Especially in light of BRICS.

 

[Jason]

And if that was the case thats even more suspicious. Bodies in the plane would of been even more damaged and the ones fallen out would unlikely be clustered together with the plane so close together and in such number, surely.

Again gary, there were almost 300 people onboard that plane and your basing this this assumption on one photo of 1 or 2 people laying on the ground by the fuselage. Do you understand the undertaking this would ential to fake the plane crash while the entire world is watching.

 

[Jason]

Well there is at least one guy actually there that is claiming that. I am just saying that I find it mildly suspicious but not as suspicious as the conspiracy theory coming from western media and government that Russia did it. Especially in light of BRICS.

Can you provide the source please. You can't just say some guy said that...

 

[Libertarian]

I'm from the Netherlands and I'm very interested in what happened. A lot of people got killed, pretty dumb to say I shouldn't care.

We should care about lots of things. You are being carefully directed by the media and by politicians to care about this specific thing though. So if you are not willing or able to ask yourself "why?" then unfortunately you will never find the complete answer to your queston of what happened.

 

[Pete Tar]

bodies in the plane would of been even more damaged and the ones fallen out would unlikely be clustered together with the plane so close together and in such number, surely.

Surely?! How about, not at all. You have people strapped into rows of seats, and you are wondering why they would cluster together?
How about the luggage then, how can that possibly cluster together?

Stop putting your expectations about what you think should happen on to the event and claim valid suspicion because of your limited knowledge. Can't you see how that does not lead to truth at all?
And I will certainly tell you not to misquote someone when making a point. Get it right.

 

[David Fraser]

Dont tell me what to do. That is rude.

And if that was the case thats even more suspicious. Bodies in the plane would of been even more damaged and the ones fallen out would unlikely be clustered together with the plane so close together and in such number, surely.

Anyway, like I said, it is not the most suspicious thing. The suspicious thing is that the western media and governments are blaming Russia. I guess you guys want to be caught up in WW3. Well guess what. I dont.

Forensically how can you qualify any of your comments about bodies and damage?

 

[Jason]

We should care about lots of things. You are being carefully directed by the media and by politicians to care about this specific thing though.

Libertarian, that's an unfair assessment considering you don't know David. I think most people in the world are concerned that passenger jet was struck by a missile, and that almost 300 people perished including infants. You're desiring to understand why he cares on a global position, rather than on a personal level...

 

[Pete Tar]

We should care about lots of things. You are being carefully directed by the media and by politicians to care about this specific thing though. So if you are not willing or able to ask yourself "why?" then unfortunately you will never find the complete answer to your queston of what happened.

Yes okay, basic human compassion in a tragedy is a carefully orchestrated psy-op, not a simple automatic response.
Your ideology has warped your understanding of reality if this is your first thought.

 

[David]

You are being carefully directed by the media and by politicians to care about this specific thing though.

Ugh.

 

[Libertarian]

I am just saying that I find it mildly suspicious but not as suspicious as the conspiracy theory coming from western media and government that Russia did it. Especially in light of BRICS.
Can you provide the source please. You can't just say some guy said that...

I think Gary was referring to the BRICS dollar alternative currency system which was just announced. He mentioned it earlier. It is common knowledge. Just google "BRICS Currency basket".

 

[Gary Cook]

Surely?! How about, not at all. You have people strapped into rows of seats, and you are wondering why they would cluster together?
How about the luggage then, how can that possibly cluster together?

Stop putting your expectations about what you think should happen on to the event and claim valid suspicion because of your limited knowledge. Can't you see how that does not lead to truth at all?
And I will certainly tell you not to misquote someone when making a point. Get it right.

Fine be biased for everybody to see. I was making a point too. Bodies and luggage are not the same. Luggage is very tightly packed and often held down together. That could be from the same pallets for all we know and broke on impact. Its hardly the same as a cluster of bodies none looking like they have lost limbs but I admit its not easy to see. It was just a question. My point is just as valid as the counter. Get over yourself.

And you didnt even try to explain why Russia would commit political suicide like that. Because you cant.

 

[Gary Cook]

Has anybody addressed these questions here yet?

http://rt.com/news/173976-mh17-crash-questions-ukraine/

 

[Libertarian]

Yes okay, basic human compassion in a tragedy is a carefully orchestrated psy-op, not a simple automatic response.
Your ideology has warped your understanding of reality if this is your first thought.

Hundreds of people die every day. The deaths and trajedies that we are supposed to care about are carefully selected. I'm interested in why they are selected, because I've read Brzezinski et al. I want to know why I'm being pointed at a given thing and told to emotionally connect to it. I am especially concerned about asking who will benefit by my emotional connection. IE who paid to point me there. The media does not work for free.

 

[WeedWhacker]

You are being carefully directed by the media and by politicians to care about this specific thing though.

This is quite a claim to make. Callous, even. (And, to claim that the media is "carefully directing" people is absurd in the extreme).

The media is (usually, not always) about journalism...and nowadays, increasingly about advertising revenue profits. This is the anti-thesis of actual journalism, but still a modern fact. True journalists (the ones left) understand this, and realize it is a profit business.

"If it bleeds, it leads" was a motto I first heard decades ago...in terms of journalism media, since at least the 1970s-era.

 

[Jason]

And you didnt even try to explain why Russia would commit political suicide like that. Because you cant.

No one is implying Russia would commit political suicide. No one is saying that the Russians fired the missile. The rebels in the Ukrane or Russian Separatist seemed to be the likely candidate. I'm guessing they didn't foresee this as ever happening and we will probably see Putin distance himself from the rebels.

 

[BombDr]

Dont tell me what to do. That is rude.

And if that was the case thats even more suspicious. Bodies in the plane would of been even more damaged and the ones fallen out would unlikely be clustered together with the plane so close together and in such number, surely.

Anyway, like I said, it is not the most suspicious thing. The suspicious thing is that the western media and governments are blaming Russia. I guess you guys want to be caught up in WW3. Well guess what. I dont.

Gary, I'm not sure what you are basing your 'would have' assertions on. An unpowered item will have a maximum rate of fall, depending on its aerodynamics. As all of the passengers would most certainly be unconscious within moments of the missile strike, they would all be limp.

The sections of the fuselage that stay together with passengers inside will impact the ground with roughly the same force that free-falling bodies will, so are more likely to be protected from damage by their seats etc.

I have not seen an airliner crash in this way, but I did respond to another air disaster in 1997 in Israel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Israeli_helicopter_disaster

The bodies on the ground, in some cases appeared to be asleep, albeit with the arms and legs in odd positions, while others were horribly damaged. The soldiers that remained in the helicopters I did not get to see (mercifully) as they were on fire and their ammunition was cooking off.

My point is this: with nearly 300 people all falling to the ground in many different configurations, I would suggest that many will end up in final conditions that you may not expect them to be in. I am unaware of your experience of viewing sites of multiple deaths?

 

[Libertarian]

This is quite a claim to make. Callous, even. (And, to claim that the media is "carefully directing" people is absurd in the extreme).

No it is not absurd at all. It is much more absurd to not ask one-self why Obama is not golfing. If he is reading from his teleprompter there is a reason. And I'm not naive enough to believe it is his deep down desire to pour his heart out.

He'd rather be golfing. So who paid for him to change course and stir everyone up?

 

[Gary Cook]

One ridiculous bunk claim was that this jet was actually MH370, after it had been "hijacked" by the U.S., then released.

A "Comprehensive guide to the web's many MH17 conspiracy theories" by 'The Washington Post':

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...de-to-the-webs-many-mh17-conspiracy-theories/

(Number 7)....

The link you posted doesnt debunk #7. Why couldnt it be? Just asking. And you seem to actually hate anybody who offers a counter theory to what the TV says happened. Lets not foget situations like this have happened in history. Its not exatly like saying aliens have invaded and turned Obama into a android.