House Oversight Hearing on UAPs - July 26, 2023

From @AR318307 's post #31 about Grusch:
Associates who vouched for Grusch said his information was highly sensitive, providing evidence that materials from objects of non-human origin are in the possession of highly secret black programs. Although locations, program names, and other specific data remain classified, the Inspector General and intelligence committee staff were provided with these details. Several current members of the recovery program spoke to the Inspector General’s office and corroborated the information Grusch had provided for the classified complaint.
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What I don't get is why Grusch is not in more trouble for (1) talking about classified subjects at work outside his security clearance, and (2) talking about them to the press after he left the department.

My guess is the DoD is picking its battles (at least until this point). The classified information that, say, Grusch and Elizondo have illegitimately obtained and/or have subsequently released may not compromise national security anywhere near as seriously as the data leaks by the likes of Airman Jack Teixeira, Chelsea (formerly known as 'Bradley') Manning and Edward Snowden previously. They needed to be criminally reined in and in a public manner. Due to the influential lobby, money and political supporters of the ufologists, a big fight with them would just amount to an unnecessary public drama between the DoD and the Usual Suspects which is disproportionate to the real dangers posed by their illegally obtained/released information.

It's just more benign stuff. But I'm only speculating.
 
My guess is the DoD is picking its battles (at least until this point). The classified information that, say, Grusch and Elizondo have illegitimately obtained and/or have subsequently released may not compromise national security anywhere near as seriously as the data leaks by the likes of Airman Jack Teixeira, Chelsea (formerly known as 'Bradley') Manning and Edward Snowden previously. They needed to be criminally reined in and in a public manner. Due to the influential lobby, money and political supporters of the ufologists, a big fight with them would just amount to an unnecessary public drama between the DoD and the Usual Suspects which is disproportionate to the real dangers posed by their illegally obtained/released information.

It's just more benign stuff. But I'm only speculating.

I believe the answer to this question is given in the article from The Debrief:

In accordance with protocols, Grusch provided the Defense Office of Prepublication and Security Review at the Department of Defense with the information he intended to disclose to us. His on-the-record statements were all “cleared for open publication” on April 4 and 6, 2023, in documents provided to us.
 
I believe the answer to this question is given in the article from The Debrief:

That clearance concerns only the stuff he released to the public (stories about he-said she-said aliens). But not any classified information he has potentially illegitimately obtained by snooping around where he shouldn't and overstepping his clearance and need-to-know. Also, it doesn't mention Lou Elizondo who is a related case and in many ways the OG. Also, we don't know what Grusch has told in private to people outside the DoD regarding classified DoD information. I'd wager he'd been pretty darn talkative at least amongst the Usual Suspects.
 
Why do we even use the term "debunk" for such videos?
*Explained* would be a better term for it. A video like that shows something that appears anomalous at first sight, and it requires some work and sometimes experiments to recreate what we see on screen in order to figure out what we're looking at. Once we've figured out a likely explanation, the video should be referred to as "explained

If I catch something weird on my home's Nest camera and I can't figure out what it is, so I post it here or reddit for help, and after some back and forth someone who figures it out, we wouldn't call my video "Debunked", we'd just say we've explained it. Why not the same for UAP videos for which a satisfactory explanation has been found?
Because claims are made about such videos, such as Go Fast demonstrates a fast moving object with no source of propulsion, which further implies some sort of stunningly advanced technology.

That's the bunk, the debunk addresses that claim whilst not actually being able to know exactly what the object is.
 
Some aspects may have been debunked, like the high speed in gofast or the sudden move in the tictac video. But I still haven't seen any evidence of ATFLIR glare caused by a distant jet, and the tictac in the video still looks convincingly like a tictac to me. No convincing explanation for Kirkpatrick's metallic orb video either.

So yes, some debunking has been irrefutable but other debunking can be disputed. I would like to see AARO engage publicly in these debates, and use whatever data they have. Why would any conclusion resulting from these kind of public debates be classified? The only one I can think of is secret technology of the US or its allies.
Does it ever concern you that the same people releasing and making claims about both Gimbal and Go Fast made such egregious errors with Go Fast? Or that when they released the analyses they never really addressed the most likely objections, surely given the expertise they must have known they were going to come up, ie the bumps before rotations and the glare theory? But it took Mick/Metabunks analyses to somehow get to the actual claims, wouldn't it have saved a lot of time to have addressed these things before releasing the analysis?
 
Well, not an expectation, but a desire or a wish that whoever these people are they'd come forward now given the provision in the 2023 National Defense Authorization Act stating that any person with relevant UAP information can inform Congress without retaliation, regardless of any previous non-disclosure agreements. Now would be the time to do so if they've got anything.
Of course, if they don't have anything, not coming forward is the correct response. Which is what has happened so far...
 
If they want to show the public that there is nothing behind the phenomenon...
Assumes facts not placed in evidence... Assuming "they" here means the Pentagon, or the larger The Government, I'm not seeing much evidence that they care too much what people think about UFOs.

I'm also seeing zero evidence that if they just released a bit more information, showing yet more cases that are not anything interesting, that will convince any believers that there is nothing behind the phenomenon after all.
 
This is disappointing. We're not going to learn anything new from Graves and Fravor. Their stories are already well known and widely circulated, and they themselves don't know much. I'm more interested in hearing if Grusch has more to say, but is there any reason to believe he can bring receipts this time, or are we just going to hear the same things we heard in his interview with Coulthart?

Overall, super disappointing.

Why do you need a hearing at all...

1. If it is a black project, say so and end the conspiracy.
2. If it is Russia or China, say so and end the conspiracy.
3. If it is a weather phenomenon they don't yet understand, say so and end the conspiracy.
4. If it is airborne clutter, say so and end the conspiracy.

I'm not an American but if I was a tax payer I'd be annoyed that my dollars are being used for mental gymnastics.

Where there is smoke there is fire. Smells like a misuse of tax payer funds that doesn't want to be exposed...
 
And to get their names in the paper. Or the modern equivalents...
It was Grusch who said he wanted to be the UAP "thought leader" and create a foundation to study the phenomena. Name recognition and media coverage are both important if that's his goal. As Barnum said, "There's no such thing as bad publicity."
 
Why do we even use the term "debunk" for such videos?
*Explained* would be a better term for it. A video like that shows something that appears anomalous at first sight, and it requires some work and sometimes experiments to recreate what we see on screen in order to figure out what we're looking at. Once we've figured out a likely explanation, the video should be referred to as "explained

If I catch something weird on my home's Nest camera and I can't figure out what it is, so I post it here or reddit for help, and after some back and forth someone who figures it out, we wouldn't call my video "Debunked", we'd just say we've explained it. Why not the same for UAP videos for which a satisfactory explanation has been found?
People are using these UAP videos as proof for the existence of Non-human Intelligence. Claims which so far have been bunk (i.e. nonsense) and therefore needed to be debunked.

In the example you stated, you just wanted an explanation. If you said you caught proof of Bigfoot on your Nest camera, then the response would go from needing to be explained to needing to be debunked.
 
1. If it is a black project, say so and end the conspiracy.
2. If it is Russia or China, say so and end the conspiracy.
3. If it is a weather phenomenon they don't yet understand, say so and end the conspiracy.
4. If it is airborne clutter, say so and end the conspiracy.
The nature of conspiracy theorists is that they don't respond well to facts. Believers tend to want one of only two responses: (1) "they admit it's true", or (2) "it's true but they're covering it up", "they" referring to any official entity. I wish it were as simple as saying so, but I have no expectation that an answer, no matter how honest or accurate, will settle the matter, especially if it comes from the governmental department they already don't trust.
 
Some aspects may have been debunked, like the high speed in gofast or the sudden move in the tictac video. But I still haven't seen any evidence of ATFLIR glare caused by a distant jet, and the tictac in the video still looks convincingly like a tictac to me. No convincing explanation for Kirkpatrick's metallic orb video either.

So yes, some debunking has been irrefutable but other debunking can be disputed
ATFLIR:
Bunk claim: unusual rotation = alien physics
Debunk: rotation coincides with rotation of ATFLIR pod, including bumps of the optics
Convinced me.

Tictac: looks like a tictac. What is the claim? What makes this in any way abnormal?

Everything can be disputed, but it's often not reasonable.
Why do you need a hearing at all...

1. If it is a black project, say so and end the conspiracy.
2. If it is Russia or China, say so and end the conspiracy.
3. If it is a weather phenomenon they don't yet understand, say so and end the conspiracy.
4. If it is airborne clutter, say so and end the conspiracy.

I'm not an American but if I was a tax payer I'd be annoyed that my dollars are being used for mental gymnastics.
But the DoD often does not know. The reason is that every sensor system has a range where you can tell something's there, but not what it is: the low information zone. UFO reports love this zone, every fuzzy blob of pixels lives there, so there will always be pictures that we can't explain.

Your dollars are being spent by AATIP, UAPTF, AOIMSG, AARO and the like because the UFO believers in Congress are certain that the clear data supporting the notion that these fuzzy blobs are extraterrestrials is already in the hands of the DoD. The DoD is adamant they don't have this data, but they can't prove a negative; so, as long as there are people like Grusch and Luna, taxpayer dollars keep getting burned.
 
So not only do you not want to advertise to the enemy what you know, but you also do not want to advertise what you *don't* know just in case the things you can't identify do in fact belong to an enemy power.

This then might explain why there has been a policy of over classification. If you can't tell what something is, you're not going to advertise that fact. You keep your mouth shut in the hopes of eventually figuring it out.
Now, entertain the conspiracy theory that there are Russian assets working in US politics, and suddenly it's not the UAP that's the threat to national security, it's the UFO believers who force the declassification of this data.

Politicians lacking insufficient clearances complain about not being able to access secret information. That should send alarm bells ringing, but the UFO believers would rather keep fighting their own government. I don't think any other country in the world does this.
 
Why do you need a hearing at all...

1. If it is a black project, say so and end the conspiracy.
2. If it is Russia or China, say so and end the conspiracy.
3. If it is a weather phenomenon they don't yet understand, say so and end the conspiracy.
4. If it is airborne clutter, say so and end the conspiracy.

I'm not an American but if I was a tax payer I'd be annoyed that my dollars are being used for mental gymnastics.

Where there is smoke there is fire. Smells like a misuse of tax payer funds that doesn't want to be exposed...
Olive oil produces smoke without fire.

I think your 1-4 rest on the assumption that they even *know*. At this point the UAP phenomena and its associated mythology encompass so many kinds of claims and so many kinds of sightings that the chances of it being explicable by one single black project, weather phenomenon, adversary, or airborne clutter is virtually none. A combination of all of them to various degrees? Very likely, but I don't even know how they can ever explain this to the American public in a way that a) they will adequately grasp, and b) the UFO community will ever accept. It's pretty obvious b is never going to happen, the UFO community only wants one very specific kind of answer, and if it's not that answer, there is nothing anyone can ever do to convince them.
 
Now, entertain the conspiracy theory that there are Russian assets working in US politics, and suddenly it's not the UAP that's the threat to national security, it's the UFO believers who force the declassification of this data.

Politicians lacking insufficient clearances complain about not being able to access secret information. That should send alarm bells ringing, but the UFO believers would rather keep fighting their own government. I don't think any other country in the world does this.

ATFLIR:
Bunk claim: unusual rotation = alien physics
Debunk: rotation coincides with rotation of ATFLIR pod, including bumps of the optics
Convinced me.

Tictac: looks like a tictac. What is the claim? What makes this in any way abnormal?

Everything can be disputed, but it's often not reasonable.

But the DoD often does not know. The reason is that every sensor system has a range where you can tell something's there, but not what it is: the low information zone. UFO reports love this zone, every fuzzy blob of pixels lives there, so there will always be pictures that we can't explain.

Your dollars are being spent by AATIP, UAPTF, AOIMSG, AARO and the like because the UFO believers in Congress are certain that the clear data supporting the notion that these fuzzy blobs are extraterrestrials is already in the hands of the DoD. The DoD is adamant they don't have this data, but they can't prove a negative; so, as long as there are people like Grusch and Luna, taxpayer dollars keep getting burned.

Just curious, do you think AATIP and AARO are a waste of time and resources? Even if we take ETs off the table, one thing I respect about what Ryan Greaves is trying to do is raise awareness that no matter what these things end up being, they have and continue to pose a flight safety risk to both commercial and military pilots and that the stigma of associated with reporting UFO sightings historically has led to there not being any kind of formal or centralized reporting place for pilots like himself to report sightings of things when they occur. Just on a pragmatic safety level, he's reporting an operational safety issue that is in need of addressing. And of course when sightings do occur, it seems fairly easy to make the case for not only reporting them but also having someone try to identify just what it is that is being seen. Even if we completely discount the ET shit associated with all this stuff, there is a legitimate reason for something like AARO to exist, don't you think?
 
Even if we completely discount the ET shit associated with all this stuff, there is a legitimate reason for something like AARO to exist, don't you think?
Yes, but not if Alien Spaceship true believers are put in charge of it -- doing that keeps the focus on the nonsense instead of on the potential hazards to navigation, and insures that there continues to be a stigma associated with reporting "flying saucers and little green men," whether called UFOs or UAPs or some other acronym.
 
Just curious, do you think AATIP and AARO are a waste of time and resources? Even if we completely discount the ET shit associated with all this stuff, there is a legitimate reason for something like AARO to exist, don't you think?

Herein lies the conundrum. What program? AATIP wasn't a waste of time and resources, because if it ever existed, it was never funded, and the time was spent by UFO guys at the DoD on their own. The actual program that gets mixed up with AATIP is AASWAP and it was a colossal waste of $22 million of taxpayer money. The often touted "safety in the skies" reason, was a minute part of AASWAP's look into weirdshitology at SWR. The UAPTF was run by an alum of AASWAP with help from Ancient Aliens regular Travis Taylor. How much "safety in the skies" were they concerned with?

AARO remains to be seen. If there are drones or other things flying around endangering military and civilian flights, then yes, it should be looked into.

Personally, I think the "safety in the skies" is an old, overused argument from the UFOloists that they have been throwing around for years. The argument is "we need to study these things in case they are Russian or Chinese assets". I guess, but the last year and a half has shown the Russians to be paper tigers. If the Russians had super-secret high tech aerial assets, I don't think Putin would hold them back while getting his ass handed to him in Ukraine.

Do the Chinese have super secret aerial assets that the US DoD can't figure out? Possible I guess, but I think the "safety in the skies" is a Straw Man that the UFOlogists throw out in a bid for being taken more seriously in the government. They don't want Chinese drones, they want aliens.
 
Olive oil produces smoke without fire.

I think your 1-4 rest on the assumption that they even *know*. At this point the UAP phenomena and its associated mythology encompass so many kinds of claims and so many kinds of sightings that the chances of it being explicable by one single black project, weather phenomenon, adversary, or airborne clutter is virtually none. A combination of all of them to various degrees? Very likely, but I don't even know how they can ever explain this to the American public in a way that a) they will adequately grasp, and b) the UFO community will ever accept. It's pretty obvious b is never going to happen, the UFO community only wants one very specific kind of answer, and if it's not that answer, there is nothing anyone can ever do to convince them.
So it's a combination of the above, but there has been a lot of fantastical claims of 'Space Aliens' which is utterly ridiculous. I'll quote the American journalist/presenter Chris Cuomo from the source below, 'when you don't tell people you weaponise the unknown'. It is true...


Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UabV0euluTY


Also who is 'the UFO community'? Are we talking about mad scientists? I don't know who 'they' are?
 
Does it ever concern you that the same people releasing and making claims about both Gimbal and Go Fast made such egregious errors with Go Fast? Or that when they released the analyses they never really addressed the most likely objections, surely given the expertise they must have known they were going to come up, ie the bumps before rotations and the glare theory? But it took Mick/Metabunks analyses to somehow get to the actual claims, wouldn't it have saved a lot of time to have addressed these things before releasing the analysis?
What concerns me is that the people releasing and analysing these videos are not from the government. The videos were leaked initially, and were never analyzed by any government agency afterwards (at least not in public). The only thing the government did was acknowledge these were 'genuine UAP's' without any accompanying analysis or explanation. Recently Kirkpatrick told that the sensor data in Gofast indicated a low speed of the UAP but that's it.

Why leave the public in the dark like this? It leads to all kinds of speculations. Maybe the ATFLIR maintains its tracking motion for a while after losing its lock on an object. This could indicate there was a sudden move of the object after all. Or maybe the ATFLIR is complety unsusceptible to glare and its gimbal motion happened to coincide with the rotating motion and apparent loss of speed of the UAP. There always is a loophole for both skeptics and believers because we don't have enough data and enough in-depth knowledge of the sensors collecting them. I think AARO can do better than just releasing videos after they were leaked anyway and then remain silent.
 
Just curious, do you think AATIP and AARO are a waste of time and resources?
Yes.
Even if we take ETs off the table, one thing I respect about what Ryan Greaves is trying to do is raise awareness that no matter what these things end up being, they have and continue to pose a flight safety risk to both commercial and military pilots
1. AARO does nothing to address flight safety risks.
2. The number of aircraft I know of that were brought down by unmarked balloons is 2. See https://www.metabunk.org/threads/un...-intercepted-by-us-aircraft.12866/post-287541
3. Civilian drone hazards are well known, there are laws and they're being enforced.
4. Range safety is not under the purview of AARO.

The flight safety risk from UAP is way overblown. The most common object in the sky that is known to cause accidents regularly is birds, and there's nothing you can do about them.
and that the stigma of associated with reporting UFO sightings historically has led to there not being any kind of formal or centralized reporting place for pilots like himself to report sightings of things when they occur.
Pilots can report actual risks to ATC, they'll deal with it, and actually protect traffic from them.
Just on a pragmatic safety level, he's reporting an operational safety issue that is in need of addressing.
Is it unaddressed? Did the Navy not react when these incidents occurred?
And of course when sightings do occur, it seems fairly easy to make the case for not only reporting them but also having someone try to identify just what it is that is being seen.
Is that not being done to a reasonable extent?
Remember that, earlier this year, the air force hunted down and expended a missile to eliminate what turned out to be a lightweight amateur radio balloon. Can you make a case that this wasn't a colossal waste of resources?

Even if we completely discount the ET shit associated with all this stuff, there is a legitimate reason for something like AARO to exist, don't you think?
No, I don't think so.

There is always going to be unidentified stuff in the sky, see https://www.metabunk.org/threads/ufo-acronyms-what-is-the-liz.11742/ . This is unavoidable.
If you want to address foreign threats, give the money to the spies. They had tracked the Chinese balloon long before anyone reported it.
 
I think AARO can do better than just releasing videos after they were leaked anyway and then remain silent.
Can they, though?
The likes of Travis "wormhole" Taylor or Avi "ET beads" Loeb don't seem to be able to.

Project Blue Book had a resolution rate of over 90% and still had to leave some stuff unidentified. The "the government knows everything" conspiracy theorists are hopelessly optimistic.
 
What concerns me is that the people releasing and analysing these videos are not from the government. The videos were leaked initially, and were never analyzed by any government agency afterwards (at least not in public). The only thing the government did was acknowledge these were 'genuine UAP's' without any accompanying analysis or explanation. Recently Kirkpatrick told that the sensor data in Gofast indicated a low speed of the UAP but that's it.

Why leave the public in the dark like this? It leads to all kinds of speculations. Maybe the ATFLIR maintains its tracking motion for a while after losing its lock on an object. This could indicate there was a sudden move of the object after all. Or maybe the ATFLIR is complety unsusceptible to glare and its gimbal motion happened to coincide with the rotating motion and apparent loss of speed of the UAP. There always is a loophole for both skeptics and believers because we don't have enough data and enough in-depth knowledge of the sensors collecting them. I think AARO can do better than just releasing videos after they were leaked anyway and then remain silent.
Because of default secrecy, ATFLIR is a frontline military tool. Detailed analysis of it would expose it's capabilities and flaws to US rivals. We've discussed this before default secrecy is the default because it's the least risky scenario.

Really the only people fully qualified to produce a public analysis of GIMBAL are Raytheon and Boeing, but in order to do so they would need to be authorised and paid by the US government to dedicate valuable engineers and technicians to do so and then have it ran through some sort of peer review internally and then made publically presentable with all the NDAs and whatever official secrets act type stuff they signed made void.

Now maybe that's something concrete Burchett or Luna could demand happens I doubt it would get very far, even disclosing that releasing an analysis of it would expose technical data about it could be seen as a risk no matter how small.

I would absolutely love this current situation to progress so far that it happens though, it would be fascinating.

They could just present something simple that appears like a fait accompli to the the public, a statement like "the apparently unusual nature of this video is down to the optical characteristics of the camera system interacting with the gimbal mechanism"

But I doubt that would satisfy anyone at this stage, would it satisfy you?
 
What concerns me is that the people releasing and analysing these videos are not from the government. The videos were leaked initially, and were never analyzed by any government agency afterwards (at least not in public). The only thing the government did was acknowledge these were 'genuine UAP's' without any accompanying analysis or explanation. Recently Kirkpatrick told that the sensor data in Gofast indicated a low speed of the UAP but that's it.

Why leave the public in the dark like this? It leads to all kinds of speculations.

That's assuming one or more of the following five things:

(1) That the DoD has managed to fully explain to itself all low-information-zone (LIZ) UAP footage in its own possession;

(2) That the relevant threat assessment by proper DoD intelligence (ISR, not UAPTF et al) of the UAP featured in these videos hadn't already yielded a reasonable assurance as to the low threat and likely prosaic explanation of the UAP in these videos way before any Elizondo or Grusch got a hold of them to make an unnecessarily big deal out of them;

(3) That given 2, the DoD proper (excluding any politically imposed fringe entity such as the UAPTF/AARO) is interested in fully explaining these UAP videos;

(4) That given 3, the DoD would deem it unrisky to analyze publicly all aspects of footage potentially featuring classified technologies and programs (@jarlrmai beat me to it); and

(5) That given the absence of 1, the DoD would like the public to know how ignorant they are about the specifics of some of their own LIZ footage (since, while ignorance surrounding LIZ affects even the greatest sensors, admitting such ignorance can be abused by adversaries and betray capability limitations).

I think it's important to highlight that there's roughly two kinds of 'explanation' of phenomena. The type 2 explanation below which certain lobby groups and others in the general public, as well as fringe individuals even within the government (such as Grusch) seek is somewhat different from the type 1 explanations the DoD, under its legal mandate, is primarily interested in and satisfied with.

(1) Explanations of phenomena to the extent of providing reasonable assurance for mitigating or eliminating a security risk (military, law enforcement, security services, surveillance, intelligence). Under these type 1 explanations, "identification" has a very specific meaning, referring to the process of determining with reasonable assurance the nature, the level of hostility and the target of each individual object as well as the potential damage it can cause.

(2) Explanations of phenomena to attain high confidence as to what exactly it is (science, quality journalism, rigorous academic or even amateur knowledge pursuits).

Under type 1 explanations the purpose of "identifying" a UAP is to describe a specific object in terms of the threat it poses. Under type 2 explanations the purpose of "identifying" a UAP is to understand the phenomenon -- a task which may require far more detail, as well as other types of detail irrelevant to the DoD, about the object. In other words, depending on the context, a different (whilst related) question is asked about the UAP that calls for a different kind of 'identification'.

A LIZ object may be satisfactorily roughly "identified" within context 1 (a plane, a drone) while remaining properly "unidentified" within contexts 1 and 2 (which exact plane? which exact drone?). An object may even be "unidentified" in both contexts while resolving the specific question of non-extraordinary flight patterns. Several possible and known phenomena may explain unusual flight patterns (i.e. 'unusual' at a cursory glance) which can be satisfactorily demonstrated not to be physics-defying, and thereby effectively demystifying the UAP. In other words, a UAP can be satisfactorily explained as non-extraordinary without the need to identify it in either context 1 or 2.

A detailed "identification" under context 1 (especially in the military) which is difficult to satisfy with regard to LIZ objects, comprises the exact type, role, configuration and origin of the sighted capability coupled with its flight path and overall behaviour in a threatening or non-threatening manner. For example:

Type: McDonnell Douglas F-15E
Role: Air-to-ground
Configuration: Weapons-carrying with 4 Sidewinders, 2 AMRAAMs, and x, y and z air-to-ground weapons
Origin: Country X
Flight Path and Behaviour: On a descent at location p, weapons z and y hot, towards a column of 8 main battle tanks at location q.

This level of detail is obviously a tall order to satisfy with fuzzy splotches and whizzing pixels which, without supporting data, are doomed to remain "unidentified" even for the military. On the other hand, sometimes an object may be justifiably deemed a threat even when it's not properly identified (but perhaps vaguely "characterized") whilst spotted during an active military engagement and exhibiting threatening behaviours within the proximity of critical assets.

It is perfectly possible to reach reasonable confidence on the generic type and character of a phenomenon (a bird, a plane, a plastic bag, a drone) without exactly "identifying" the object in terms of its specifics (model, make, unit, mileage, species, subspecies, age, life cycle phase, gender, product number, barcode, pick your particular).

I do agree, however, that for improved communication with the general public it would make sense for defence spokespersons to clarify this terminological confusion by stating something to the following effect:

"Unidentified", in the military context, does not mean the DoD does not entertain a likely prosaic explanation for unidentified UAP footage. Neither does our limited public disclosure imply an absence of likely prosaic explanations. We have reasonable assurance of prosaic explanations regarding all such footage.

P.S. Due to point 5 in the beginning of the post, even this type of a public clarification by the DoD, however, may be regarded as revealing too much to the adversaries as to what types of LIZ the DoD is incapable of analyzing in detail. It would also destroy the smokescreen of 'aliens' which may sometimes serve the DoD interests in keeping certain classified technologies safely wrapped under a veil of mystery. In conclusion, I would just continue to shut up about everything if I was the DoD whilst knowing full well my total silence would only further embolden conspiracy theories.
 
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Thanks for sharing. A comprehensive article which nails it in many ways.

The article paints a picture of a strong bipartisan support in the congress for the hearings. However, I'm more inclined to think that the more representative Tim Burchett (R) is becoming the public face for UFOs on the political side of the flap and thereby replacing late Harry Reid (D), the more the left as well as left-leaning mainstream media will adopt a deliberately skeptic outlook irrespective of how genuinely skeptical they are.

This would bode serious trouble for the Usual Suspects' ability to preach their gospel and to come across as impartial whistleblowers. They would hate for this to politicize. But I think given the climate, it's inevitable.

The New York Times has already distanced itself from Kean.
 
I think these hearings are wonderful for the UFO topic. It will either:
  1. Actually bring tangible evidence of aliens to light, or at least get that ball rolling.
  2. Be an incredible let down(given the hype around it) to all the UFO believers, hopefully making them question their delusions.
  3. Or, unfortunately, expose actual classified-worthy programs in which the gov't reverse-engineers foreign adversary craft/subs/ships, etc.
For the sake of our great country, I really hope #3 does not happen.
 
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WOW! That article could use a couple of threads by itself. TTSA, Puthoff, SWR, Kean, Congress and this guy:

1689955247170.png

One quick pull for this particular thread:

Davis for instance claimed a “poltergeist” chased him from Skinwalker Ranch, and in multiple “scientific” papers he promoted the notions of time-travel through wormholes, one of which was funded by the Pentagon’s $22 million program for paranormal research. He has recently been providing information to David Grusch, who has echoed some of Davis’s earlier alien craft retrieval claims.
Content from External Source
Yet another report of what many have been speculating, Grusch's various "sources" likely include unreliable SWR alums.
 
I think these hearings are wonderful for the UFO topic. It will either:
  1. Actually bring tangible evidence of aliens to light, or at least get that ball rolling.
  2. Be an incredible let down(given the hype around it) to all the UFO believers, hopefully making them question their delusions.
  3. Or, unfortunately, expose actual classified-worthy programs in which the gov't reverse-engineers foreign adversary craft/subs/ships, etc.
For the sake of our great country, I really hope #3 does not happen.
If those are the only options, I'd bet the field. ;)
 
Hey everyone. I was listening to Grusch's interview with Ross Coulthart again last night and there was one spot that struck me as interesting.


Source: https://youtu.be/gfZUA9DMzYQ


At minute 15:07 Ross asks Grusch "what can you tell me about the Roswell craft?"

Grusch responds: "Unfortunately those details were not approved for me to talk about right now."

I'm assuming he's referring to the process by which the pentagon clears what he's allowed to talk about and what he isn't. A lot of questions have been raised about why the pentagon would allow him to talk about the things he's been sharing with the media considering the fact that if any of them are true, they'd surely be classified and would be the last tthings they'd ever clear anyone to disclose.

But setting that aside, it sounds like at least with this one specific question, he was not allowed to talk about this topic or share whatever it is he knows. My question is, given how much information the government has released about Roswell, including the Roswell report in the 1990s, and the disclosures that there was indeed a cover up, and what actually crashed were balloons listening for soviet nuclear detonations, something they didn't want publicly known back then, what else about the incident is still unknown that the govt still does not allow to be declassified?

Does anyone know of any relatively recent FOIA requests about Roswell which get denied? Are there parts of the story that are still officially classified and unknown, or do historians believe most (all?) documentation regarding this time period has been publicly available?

Just strikes me as odd that out of all the things Grusch was allowed to talk about, a question about Roswell of all things would be denied. Any idea why this might be?
 
Just strikes me as odd that out of all the things Grusch was allowed to talk about, a question about Roswell of all things would be denied. Any idea why this might be?
he could just not have asked if he can talk about details of Roswell. He didnt say he was denied.

I think if he were denied, it's unlikely he would have added "right now".
 
Just strikes me as odd that out of all the things Grusch was allowed to talk about, a question about Roswell of all things would be denied. Any idea why this might be?

That's assuming Grusch is accurately reporting what Pentagon has or hasn't approved. At this point I'd be much more cautious about taking any of Grusch's words at face value.

For him to imply Pentagon hasn't cleared him to talk about Roswell certainly makes him look like he is privy to an epic Pentagon coverup. If his whole purpose is to portray such an image of himself to begin with, don't you think that's exactly what he would say?

I may be totally wrong, but at first watching I felt I detected a hint of 'fake' frustration as he said those words.
 
Just strikes me as odd that out of all the things Grusch was allowed to talk about, a question about Roswell of all things would be denied. Any idea why this might be?
As I recall, the only incident he talked about specifically was the alleged 1930s UFO crash in Italy. Seemed like everything he discussed came from Italian/open sources. Not even sure he needed to ask for approval to discuss that incident if he saw no USG classified documents about it. Maybe going out of his way to show he was playing by the rules.

As for Roswell, sounds like he was gaming the interview. He claimed to have never seen or been given access to documents confirming any crash/retrieval, that was the crux of his initial complaint. Everything he says is heresay.
 
Washington Spectator article said:
....and in multiple “scientific” papers he promoted the notions of time-travel through wormholes, one of which was funded by the Pentagon’s $22 million program for paranormal research.
I've read Davis' paper, and for three-quarters of it he gives a competent summary of the various speculations and hypotheses about wormholes in the scientific literature. The last third is all pure paranormal woo.
 
That's assuming Grusch is accurately reporting what Pentagon has or hasn't approved. At this point I'd be much more cautious about taking any of Grusch's words at face value.

For him to imply Pentagon hasn't cleared him to talk about Roswell certainly makes him look like he is privy to an epic Pentagon coverup. If his whole purpose is to portray such an image of himself to begin with, don't you think that's exactly what he would say?

I may be totally wrong, but at first watching I felt I detected a hint of 'fake' frustration as he said those words.

This is all fair and possible. The lens I view him through (and many others in the UFO crowd) is I assume he's being honest about what he believes and is reporting, aka he's being truthful, but is simply mistaken, for a number of different reasons. I try not to assume dishonesty from people unless it's obvious that they are engaged in willful deception (people like Stephen Greer), so I could assume he's just answering in the ways that would give him an aura of insider knowledge and he's just playing a character in line with that, but he's given me no reason to believe he's a dishonest person to this date so I'm happy to be as charitable as I can be unless given reason to believe otherwise.

I also work in the mental health field in the criminal justice system and have learned my lesson about my ability to spot dishonesty in people. I think research on this generally agrees with me on the fact that we are terrible at spotting dishonesty. We often miss signs of it completely, or attribute dishonesty to behaviors and signs that are not at all indicative of deception. When you add autism to the mix (which was revealed by Coulthart that Grusch indeed is on the spectrum), my already low ability to spot dishonesty goes even further out the window, so I'm not sure how much I, or anyone, should make of things like the fake frustration you mention. I stay away from things like that because we're notoriously bad at judging body language and cues to detect lying.

Larger point being, I find the assumption that people are being deceptive as the easiest and lowest form of skepticism and I think in his case there's probably a good explanation for the Roswell thing I asked about that's just as "boring" and plausible without assuming the worst of people.
 
As I recall, the only incident he talked about specifically was the alleged 1930s UFO crash in Italy. Seemed like everything he discussed came from Italian/open sources. Not even sure he needed to ask for approval to discuss that incident if he saw no USG classified documents about it. Maybe going out of his way to show he was playing by the rules.

As for Roswell, sounds like he was gaming the interview. He claimed to have never seen or been given access to documents confirming any crash/retrieval, that was the crux of his initial complaint. Everything he says is heresay.
Well he does say he saw several "interesting pictures/videos" and "very interesting documents" but that's just vague enough to be useless. "Very interesting" can literally mean anything.
 
Well he does say he saw several "interesting pictures/videos" and "very interesting documents" but that's just vague enough to be useless. "Very interesting" can literally mean anything.
I've always found the Cottingley Fairies pictures interesting. ;)

2900.jpg
 
My question is, given how much information the government has released about Roswell, including the Roswell report in the 1990s, and the disclosures that there was indeed a cover up, and what actually crashed were balloons listening for soviet nuclear detonations, something they didn't want publicly known back then, what else about the incident is still unknown that the govt still does not allow to be declassified?

Roswell is the Grandaddy, more so now than Arnolds original "flying saucers". It's the one everybody knows and it's the town all the UFOlogist want to go visit. So, naturally someone like Coulthart, (who is now claiming there is crashed UFO so big a foreign country constructed a huge building over it, but of course he can't say where, link to thread below) is going to ask about it. And being that Grusch seems to take the Mussolini UFO at face value, he likely does with Roswell, but what's to talk about?

Rancher Brazil found some stuff on his ranch consistent with high altitude balloons. He brought it in and there were even pictures of Marcel holding what looks like sticks and foil, hardly the stuff of intergalactic travel. The Army said it was a weather balloon, which may be what they were told depending on how classified Project Mogal was at the time. And even then, it's still a balloon consistent with what Brazil found and was photographed. Grusch and Colthart are shown looking at the pictures in the video after the question is asked.

End of story. There was never anything more about it for 30+ years.

Then UFOlogist Stanton Friedman looked into Roswell in the late '70s then gave his research to "author" Charels Berlitz, who never let facts get in the way of a good story. He popularized the non-existent Bermuda Triangle, believed in Atlantis and after his Roswell book, wrote another book about the even more bonkers Philidelphia Experiment. This is where all the modern Roswell lore first starts to appear. Multiple crashed saucers, the army recovering them, dead aliens, all of it is from Berlitz's 1980 book and others that jumped on the bandwagon. NONE of it is based on anything that happened in 1947, it's all 25-30 year old recollections and stories supposedly passed down.

Colthart is either unaware of where the body stories came from, or just believes them all as he says to Grusch, "It's a matter of public record, multiple witness say there were bodies recovered" 15:59. Grusch responded the maybe those witnesses should be taken seriously. For example, Melvin Brown is often touted as one of those witness the Grusch says we might want to take seriously. Discussed in the thread linked below, in that thread @deirdre found this (bold by me):

In a CSICOP article Kal K. Korff writes that Sergeant Melvin E. Brown is "touted as a "witness" who saw alien bodies by Roswell authors Friedman, Randle and Schmitt, and Michael Hesemann and Philip Mantle (Beyond Roswell)."

He adds that Melvin Brown cannot be considered a witness since he died in 1986 and was never interviewed by UFO researchers. Indeed, the only "proof" one has that Brown was a "witness" comes from his daughter, Beverly Bean, who first made the claim years after his death. No other member of Brown's family supports her claim. Kal K. Korff writes that he had checked Melvin Brown's military file and that they revealed that "he was a cook who held no security clearance and never pulled guard duty."
Content from External Source
Note, 5 different authors, + Berlitz and his co-author as he used Friedman as a source, used the supposed testimony of Brown via the secondhand tales of his daughter. Is this what Grusch is talking about?

The only real cover-up was what kind of balloon had crashed and that made sense at the time.

So, what is Grusch going to talk about?

Note also at 18:13 he just goes along with Colthart's description of UFOs shutting down ICBMs at Malmstrom AFB. That story comes almost completely from the jumbled memories of Robert Salas, see thread link below.

Colthart and Grusch just seem to be going down the top 10 UFO stories of the last 50+ years as if they are ALL completely legit.

Malmstrom AFB UFO:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/uf...mstrom-eagle-flight-skeptical-resources.3284/

Russ Coulthart's huge UFO:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/ross-coultharts-huge-buried-ufo.13040/

Melvin Brown saw bodies at Roswell:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/roswell-ufo-witness-sgt-melvin-e-brown.12162
 
The only real cover-up was what kind of balloon had crashed and that made sense at the time.

So, what is Grusch going to talk about?

Yep, and given that we now know what kind of balloons they were, and what they were used for, this is why this stuck out to me. Either Grusch is lying about not being allowed to talk about Roswell, or like Deirdre mentioned above, he may have simply failed to ask if he could talk about Roswell so passed up on discussing it without being given explicit permission, or he did request for permission to discuss it during his attempts to get his statements approved by the Pentagon and anything related to Roswell was specifically denied.

If it's the last option, given how much is already known about what happened in Roswell, including from government sources like the report it released in the 90's, are there parts of the story that are still unknown because the government still doesn't allow that information to be disclosed? (For instance, has The Black Vault ever requested documents related to Roswell via FOIA that are denied?)

I guess what I'm trying to ask is, granted that what happened at Roswell was a perfectly mundane thing that just so happened to involve top secret spy balloons that the United States didn't want leaked at the time, are there still details of that operation, or of the story itself, that are unknown by historians of this event because those details would have to be provided by the government, but which for one reason or another they still do not allow them to be released? One possible explanation could be something as trivial as "We know they were spy balloons listening for Soviet nuclear detonations, but the actual designs, materials, and means by which said balloons worked are still classified". Or are all requests for information about this case generally understood to have been fulfilled and even details like these are well understood?

Basically, if Grusch asked if he could talk about Roswell, and he was denied, what's one plausible and boring reason why he may have been denied?
 
Either Grusch is lying about not being allowed to talk about Roswell, or like Deirdre mentioned above, he may have simply failed to ask if he could talk about Roswell so passed up on discussing it without being given explicit permission, or he did request for permission to discuss it during his attempts to get his statements approved by the Pentagon and anything related to Roswell was specifically denied.
My money is on "failed to ask", i.e. Roswell not being part of his DOPSR submissions. However, Grusch hasn't been transparent about these, so what is he covering up? ;)
 
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