House Oversight Hearing on UAPs - July 26, 2023

[Landru]

Oh look what we have here.

This is the entire thesis to my argument.

You and me, are having an argument about UFO sightings from 70 years ago, that were the result of misinformation and misdirection.

The behavior by the military has had a net negative effect on the people and our ability to trust each other, the news, or anything else.

Again, you can have the stance that the lies and misinformation are valuable, but you can't have the stance that it has negative effects and doesn't/isn't happening.

Less sarcasm all around please.

 

[tobigtofool]

Oh look at the text in your link here!

This is the entire thesis to my argument.

You and me, are having an argument about UFO sightings from 70 years ago, that were the result of misinformation and misdirection.

The behavior by the military has had a net negative effect on the people and our ability to trust each other, the news, or anything else.

Again, you can have the stance that the lies and misinformation are valuable, but you can't have the stance that it has negative effects and doesn't/isn't happening.

Fixed!

Nothing in this edit is sarcasm now.

 

[LilWabbit]

No. You?

Not yet, but wait till I disclose to all media our secret alien autopsy program. We discovered ETs do a lot of drunk-flying. Hence the crashes.

 

[tobigtofool]

Not yet, but wait till I disclose to all media our secret alien autopsy program. We discovered ETs do a lot of drunk-flying. Hence the crashes.

Hmm Im detecting some sarcasm.

Im not sure what you mean. But it sounds like you have a very high ranking position, and should blow the whistle.

 

[LilWabbit]

Hmm Im detecting some sarcasm.

Maybe just a hint. All in good sport though.

Everybody getting all argumentative over aliens is worse.

 

[tobigtofool]

Maybe just a hint. All in good sport though.

Everybody getting all argumentative over aliens is worse.

I agree!

 

[LilWabbit]

I agree!

Guess which alcoholic beverage our alien autopsies found in their blood? Hint: It kinda rhymes poetically.

 

[deirdre]

You and me, are having an argument about UFO sightings from 70 years ago, that were the result of misinformation and misdirection.

that's the point i was trying to make, hysteria back then was perhaps justified (esp with the additional fear from the Cold War itself), but that reasoning doesnt really hold true today. is my opinion. Today most people know (or can just google it) all about how the government doesnt want enemies to know about secret stuff, we know the most common explanations for alleged ufos . etc etc

 

[tobigtofool]

that's the point i was trying to make, hysteria back then was perhaps justified (esp with the additional fear from the Cold War itself), but that reasoning doesnt really hold true today. is my opinion. Today most people know (or can just google it) all about how the government doesnt want enemies to know about secret stuff, we know the most common explanations for alleged ufos . etc etc

I feel like what you are saying here is tantamount to saying the goverment should just print false stories about anything, just to quell people.

If you would draw the line somewhere before that, where you and I draw the line are just in different places.

The us military should not be secretly testing weapons of war, we may disagree on that, but there is nothing you can say to change my mind and nothing I can say to change yours. Which is why both opinions are valid.

But I can say with absolute certainty that: misinformation causes more problems than it solves.

 

[Eburacum]

It is possible that half of the unexplained cases in the late 1950s were caused by manned reconnaissance flights; since the unexplained cases in 1956 totalled about 4%, this represents maybe 2% of all UFO cases at that time. This is an entirely different proposition to the statement that 'half' of all UFO cases were caused by spyplanes in that era. Even then, I'd guess that 2% is an overestimate.

If the CIA (or some other agency) allowed the public to think that these spyplanes were alien spacecraft, I think that is probably a justifiable use of secrecy during the Cold War conflict. Eventually the USSR shot one down, with severe international repercussions.

But I'm also certain that Haines has grossly overstated the statistics, possibly by accident. He may have intended to include the phrase 'half of all unexplained cases' but omitted to do so.

 

[tobigtofool]

If the CIA (or some other agency) allowed the public to think that these spyplanes were alien spacecraft, I think that is probably a justifiable use of secrecy during the Cold War conflict. Eventually the USSR shot one down, with severe international repercussions.
But I'm also certain that Haines has grossly overstated the statistics.

I could make the argument that Qanon, is a branch from a tree planted by CIA conspiracies about aliens during the cold war.

If the goverment didn't have a long history of openly lying to people about things as abstract as UFOs let alone the meaty conspiracies, we'd have a lot more trust in our institutions today.

 

[LilWabbit]

I could make the argument that Qanon, is a branch from a tree planted by CIA conspiracies about aliens during the cold war.

If the goverment didn't have a long history of openly lying to people about things as abstract as UFOs let alone the meaty conspiracies, we'd have a lot more trust in our institutions.

The answer to my silly autopsy alcohol conundrum is "ale". Now I'm thinking you've had some. The amount of false declarative statements unbacked by evidence you managed to string one after another in such a short post is astounding.

No sarcasm.

 

[tobigtofool]

The answer to my silly autopsy alcohol conundrum is "ale". Now I'm thinking you've had some. The amount of false declarative statements unbacked by evidence you managed to string one after another in such a short post is astounding.

No sarcasm.

I was gonna say, wiskey tango?

Which false statements, please? I dont detect sarcasm there, I detect argumentative with that one.

 

[DavidB66]

And all we got out of it after 40 years was we found out the USSR hardly even food, and were no threat whatsoever.

I don't know where to begin. Perhaps with Czechoslovakia in 1968?

The USSR, and its successor state the Russian Federation, were/are vile totalitarian states which threatened democratic government and basic human rights throughout the world.

In Europe (I live in the UK) we almost daily hear Russian state media boasting of the size and number of their nuclear weapons, and what they may do with them. A recent choice example, following the damage to the Kerch Bridge, was a propagandist on Russian state TV urging retaliation by nuking Tower Bridge in London. Excuse me if I take this personally.

 

[Amathia]

The actual study was by Gerald Haines, and can be found here.
https://sgp.fas.org/library/ciaufo.html#rft45
Haines does indeed say:

Note that he attributes this in the footnotes in the following fashion;

Gerald Haines either misunderstood the statements by Pedlow, Welzenbach and/or Parongosky, or those august gentlemen were mistaken. The statement that half of all UFO reports from the late 1950s cannot be sensibly reconciled with the statement that only 4% of all cases were unidentified in 1956.

Someone along the line seems to have misunderstood the data; I'm guessing it is Haines.

Can I just ask, do we have documented examples of cases where UFO sightings were confirmed to be U-2 planes? I know what you quoted above says a lot of them were, but I'm really curious about what witnesses claim to have seen in such cases. A U-2 spy plane is a fairly unremarkable looking aircraft. I can understand B-2 and F-117 aircraft being reported as anomalous things in the sky due to their triangular shapes, but even in the 50's and 60's a U-2 spy plane would have immediately been recognizable as a plane to any observer, no? And as far as I understand it doesn't have any remarkable capabilities other than the altitude it's able to climb to. Why would such craft that are so obviously planes lead to so much confusion back then? What were the claims of witnesses, and why would such an unremarkable looking craft lead to higher levels of UFO sightings than any other plane of the era? What properties of said plane lended themselves to so much confusion? Even if I personally had never heard or seen such a plane my entire life, upon spotting one my brain would immediately lump it into the category of "plane", even if I don't know just what sort of plane I'm looking at.

 

[deirdre]

I feel like what you are saying here is tantamount to saying the government should just print false stories about anything, just to quell people

not anything.

but some things are worse than a handful of people believing in extraterrestrials. Of course i hid under my desk when we did cold war drills, which you may not have experience with. I'd rather you believe in extraterrestrials then me and my school get a bomb dropped on us.

But i agree, it's ok for us to disagree.

 

[beakflip]

But I can say with absolute certainty that: misinformation causes more problems than it solves.

You would put enemy states getting access to your state's tech and capability, or awareness of their tech and capability, on the same level as Travis Taylor thinking a fly is a wormhole traveling alien space craft?

Before UFO's were responsible for cults and suicides and whatnot (if such a case can really be made. If you mean scientology, that doesn't really have to do with aliens beyond the mythology), angels were. Devils were. The gods of Mt. Olympus were. They still are. And that is human nature, really. You make the mistake of thinking that there is a simple explanation to why some people act in ways that seem or are irrational.

 

[tobigtofool]

You would put enemy states getting access to your state's tech and capability, or awareness of their tech and capability, on the same level as Travis Taylor thinking a fly is a wormhole traveling alien space craft?

I dont fear any of our foreign adversaries, as enemies, but instead as competition.

The more we raise the bar of our destructive capabilities, the more they raise their bar to catch up, and compete.

Our competition is reverse engineering, OUR military weapons.

 

[Amathia]

I could make the argument that Qanon, is a branch from a tree planted by CIA conspiracies about aliens during the cold war.

If the goverment didn't have a long history of openly lying to people about things as abstract as UFOs let alone the meaty conspiracies, we'd have a lot more trust in our institutions today.

I don't think many people here would disagree that real, documented conspiracies the government has been involved with (MK Ultra, etc) have contributed to the propagation of all sorts of ridiculous and false conspiracies. Of course the government shares some moral culpability, and any explanation of the rise of conspiratorial thinking in the population today *has* to take into account the causal role that lies and misinformation from the government have played on such thinking.

That's all true and easy to grant. But I think the disagreement here may stem from just how much emphasis you want to place on the role of the government in the rise of this kind of thinking among the population to the exclusion of all sorts of equally important factors that have also contributed to it. This stuff didn't start in the 40s. Even among the days of the founding of the US you had all sorts of ridiculous conspiracies about Freemasons, Rosicrucianism, people being in league with the devil, all sorts of secret society claims that go even further back than the birth of the US. You can find this kind of stuff everywhere in history. If you want to place all the blame and emphasis on the role that the government has played in conspiratorial thinking you're never really going to understand the real mechanisms underneath such thinking, much less will you ever be able to learn how to protect yourself from falling victim to it yourself.

Of course the government has played a role. And it shares moral culpability proportional to the role it has played. That's easy to grant. Now, do you want to talk about all the other causal factors that contribute to conspiracy theorizing, or are you only interested in talking about the government?

 

[deirdre]

I dont fear any of our foreign adversaries, as enemies, but instead as competition.

The more we raise the bar of our destructive capabilities, the more they raise their bar to catch up, and compete.

Our competition is reverse engineering, OUR military weapons.

in fairness that's what keeps everyones economies going. this applies to every product. without the drive to one upmanship the next guy, the economy would crash and we'd all be poor and hungry.

(although i personally think more of us should be a bit more poor and a bit more hungry, but thats another topic.)

 

[deirdre]

documented conspiracies the government has been involved with (MK Ultra

to be fair, i dont personally think if the government had told us about MKUltra etc as they were happening, we would trust the government anymore than we do now

 

[tobigtofool]

Can I just ask, do we have documented examples of cases where UFO sightings were confirmed to be U-2 planes? I know what you quoted above says a lot of them were, but I'm really curious about what witnesses claim to have seen in such cases. A U-2 spy plane is a fairly unremarkable looking aircraft. I can understand B-2 and F-117 aircraft being reported as anomalous things in the sky due to their triangular shapes, but even in the 50's and 60's a U-2 spy plane would have immediately been recognizable as a plane to any observer, no? And as far as I understand it doesn't have any remarkable capabilities other than the altitude it's able to climb to. Why would such craft that are so obviously planes lead to so much confusion back then? What were the claims of witnesses, and why would such an unremarkable looking craft lead to higher levels of UFO sightings than any other plane of the era? What properties of said plane lended themselves to so much confusion? Even if I personally had never heard or seen such a plane my entire life, upon spotting one my brain would immediately lump it into the category of "plane", even if I don't know just what sort of plane I'm looking at.

The establishment of Area 51 for the purpose of developing and testing the U-2 reconnaissance aircraft is indeed well-documented in declassified government documents.

One primary source is a Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) document titled "The Central Intelligence Agency and Overhead Reconnaissance: The U-2 and OXCART Programs, 1954-1974." The document, declassified in 2013, details the creation of Area 51 for the purpose of U-2 testing.

According to the document, the U-2 program, code-named Project AQUATONE, required a remote and secret location for testing. Area 51, referred to as the Groom Lake area or "The Ranch," was chosen because of its remote location, good weather for testing, and existing infrastructure, among other factors.

"[CIA officer Richard] Bissell and Miller asked the Atomic Energy Commission to add the Groom Lake area to its Nevada real estate holdings [...] On 14 April [1955], President Eisenhower approved the addition of this strip of wasteland, known by its map designation as Area 51, to the Nevada Test Site."

The document continues, describing the first U-2 prototype's arrival at Groom Lake in July 1955 and its first flight in August of the same year.

So IMO the U2 has had a huge impact on the UFO phenomenon, including being the main source of conspiracy theory today: Area 51

to be fair, i dont personally think if the government had told us about MKUltra etc as they were happening, we would trust the government anymore than we do now

Yeah, like, for me the issue isn't "ufos", it's about having more accurate accountability, and transparency, in our military industrial complex.

Its also easier for people to not pay attention to MKultra, because we're distracted with misinformation about little green men.

I'm sure most people that are not involved in the conversation already, think MKultra is as rational as area 51, or as fake as aliens.

 

[Eburacum]

I know what you quoted above says a lot of them were, but I'm really curious about what witnesses claim to have seen in such cases. A U-2 spy plane is a fairly unremarkable looking aircraft.

I think in the early days spyplanes were painted silver, like a lot of 1950s experimental planes. This was presumably intended to reflect an atomic bomb flash. Later they were painted black, to be less conspicuous. During the silver phase, they might have been visible catching the sunlight at extreme altitude, a tiny reflective star, perhaps with a contrail. Even during the black phase some of them might have been visible at height.

I really can't imagine that such fleeting glimpses would have caused more than a tiny fraction of all sightings, which is why I think even 2% is too high.

 

[Ann K]

The entire content and thesis of my post is that by covering up military testing, with omissions, lies and misinformation, that the US military industrial complex is the systematic failure that has resulted in the UFO hysteria of today, cults, suicides, and a lot more.

Where is the hysteria? "Cults and suicides" are ancient phenomena dating to long before there were aircraft and long before there was a USA, so where is the evidence that the US military is responsible for them now? What on earth is "a lot more", and where is your evidence for that?

 

[Amathia]

The establishment of Area 51 for the purpose of developing and testing the U-2 reconnaissance aircraft is indeed well-documented in declassified government documents.

One primary source is a Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) document titled "The Central Intelligence Agency and Overhead Reconnaissance: The U-2 and OXCART Programs, 1954-1974." The document, declassified in 2013, details the creation of Area 51 for the purpose of U-2 testing.

According to the document, the U-2 program, code-named Project AQUATONE, required a remote and secret location for testing. Area 51, referred to as the Groom Lake area or "The Ranch," was chosen because of its remote location, good weather for testing, and existing infrastructure, among other factors.

"[CIA officer Richard] Bissell and Miller asked the Atomic Energy Commission to add the Groom Lake area to its Nevada real estate holdings [...] On 14 April [1955], President Eisenhower approved the addition of this strip of wasteland, known by its map designation as Area 51, to the Nevada Test Site."

The document continues, describing the first U-2 prototype's arrival at Groom Lake in July 1955 and its first flight in August of the same year.

So IMO the U2 has had a huge impact on the UFO phenomenon, including being the main source of conspiracy theory today: Area 51

I don't mean to sound rude, but this doesn't really answer the question I'm asking. I'm asking if we have concrete examples of UFO sightings that were later revealed to have been explained by a U-2 spy plane. And if we do have concrete examples of such cases, do we have access to what the witnesses claimed to have seen?

I'm asking for two reasons:

1) If the claims of witnesses were extraordinary and yet we have conclusive proof that what they witnessed was simply a U2 plane, it'd be an illustrative example of how people's memories and recollections can *seriously* go off-rails when we compare the claims made with what we know was actually there.

2) Because I'm personally curious about how such an unremarkable looking aircraft could cause so many "UFO sightings" since, once again, it so obviously looks like a plane that I'm not sure why anyone seeing it in the sky would find it at all remarkable enough to report, even if they don't know what kind of plane it is.

 

[jarlrmai]

Despite its intriguing and exciting nature for some, the UFO phenomenon has also had a lot of negative effects:

1. Misinformation and Conspiracy Theories: The fascination with UFOs has led to the spread of numerous conspiracy theories and misinformation. This can lead to mistrust of government and other authorities and can even undermine the public's understanding of science. In some extreme cases, belief in such conspiracy theories can result in illegal activities, such as trespassing on military installations or harassing public officials.
2. Personal Harm and Exploitation: Some individuals claim to have been abducted by aliens or to have suffered physical and psychological harm from encounters with UFOs. Whether these claims are true or not, such experiences can cause significant distress. There's also a risk of exploitation, as individuals might take advantage of those interested in UFOs through fraudulent products, services, or schemes.
3. Scientific Misunderstanding: The general public often equates UFOs with extraterrestrial life, despite the term simply meaning "unidentified flying object." This has led to a misunderstanding of the scientific process and the nature of evidence and inquiry. For example, unexplained does not necessarily mean inexplicable, and identification often requires careful and systematic investigation.
4. Distraction from Real Issues: An intense focus on UFOs and the possibility of extraterrestrial life can distract from real and pressing issues on Earth, such as climate change, political conflicts, and social issues.
5. National Security: From a national security perspective, the UFO phenomenon has sometimes been seen as a distraction or even a potential threat. Unidentified aerial phenomena could represent advanced technology from rival nations. As such, resources need to be dedicated to investigating these sightings to ensure national security.
6. Stigma and Career Impact: For professionals, particularly those in academia or scientific fields, being associated with UFO research can carry a stigma. It can sometimes lead to a loss of credibility among peers, which can impact career prospects and advancement.

Are we debating with ChatGPT here?

 

[Amathia]

Are we debating with ChatGPT here?

It's amazing how easy it is to immediately spot.

 

[tobigtofool]

It's amazing how easy it is to immediately spot.

Yet neither of you can counter argue those points?

Just because I used a hammer doesn't mean I didn't build the house.

 

[tobigtofool]

I don't mean to sound rude, but this doesn't really answer the question I'm asking. I'm asking if we have concrete examples of UFO sightings that were later revealed to have been explained by a U-2 spy plane. And if we do have concrete examples of such cases, do we have access to what the witnesses claimed to have seen?

I'm asking for two reasons:

1) If the claims of witnesses were extraordinary and yet we have conclusive proof that what they witnessed was simply a U2 plane, it'd be an illustrative example of how people's memories and recollections can *seriously* go off-rails when we compare the claims made with what we know was actually there.

2) Because I'm personally curious about how such an unremarkable looking aircraft could cause so many "UFO sightings" since, once again, it so obviously looks like a plane that I'm not sure why anyone seeing it in the sky would find it at all remarkable enough to report, even if they don't know what kind of plane it is.

Id love to give you direct examples, I dont, but we can use facts and logic to get a good guess as to what people saw outside of area 51, and it likely was the jet it was built to test.

Considering how important area 51 is, we can get an idea for how much of an impact those sightings had.

The U2 is remarkable because of its speed, and height, remember this is 1950... propellers were still the most efficient use for flight as far as most people were concerned.

 

[Amathia]

Yet neither of you can counter argue those points?

Just because I used a hammer doesn't mean I didn't build the house.

I pasted my own long response to you above regarding this topic which you haven't responded to. The conversation you posted the GPT response was in your conversation with Deirdre. And while I may agree with a lot of what she's saying, there are some points that I'm more interested in discussing and emphasizing than the ones she may be interested in. I don't need to butt into your conversation and rebut all the points GPT made for you because she's more than capable of doing so herself and because the things I'm more interested in discussing are laid out in my own post.

 

[tobigtofool]

You really want to play that game?

Misinformation and Conspiracy Theories:

While it is true that the fascination with UFOs has given rise to numerous conspiracy theories and misinformation, it is essential to acknowledge that this is not a phenomenon unique to UFO-related topics. Conspiracy theories have existed throughout history, covering various subjects beyond UFOs. To solely attribute the spread of misinformation to the UFO community is a reductionist perspective that neglects the broader societal factors contributing to conspiracy theories.

Blaming UFO enthusiasts for mistrust in government and authorities oversimplifies the complex issues that lead to public skepticism. Governments have, at times, demonstrated secrecy and lack of transparency on certain matters, which can foster an environment conducive to conspiracy theories. Addressing this mistrust requires transparent governance and open communication, rather than solely placing the blame on UFO enthusiasts.

It is true that belief in conspiracy theories can undermine the public's understanding of science. However, the root causes of this phenomenon are multifaceted and interconnected with broader issues in education, media literacy, and critical thinking skills. Focusing solely on UFO-related conspiracy theories disregards the need for comprehensive efforts to promote scientific literacy and critical analysis across all domains.

While extreme cases of belief in conspiracy theories leading to illegal activities are concerning, it is essential to recognize that these actions are perpetrated by a small minority of individuals. Blaming the entire UFO community for the actions of a few extremists is unfair and unjustified. It is crucial to distinguish between responsible UFO enthusiasts who seek knowledge and understanding and those who engage in illegal activities.

Personal Harm and Exploitation:

The claims of individuals who assert they have been abducted by aliens or harmed by UFO encounters can indeed be distressing for them and those around them. However, it is crucial to approach such claims with empathy and an open mind, recognizing that individuals may interpret their experiences in different ways. While some experiences may be attributed to UFOs, others may have psychological or physiological explanations, such as sleep disorders or hallucinations.

Exploitation is an unfortunate consequence of any area of interest that captures public attention. While there may be individuals who take advantage of UFO enthusiasts through fraudulent schemes or products, it is essential to remember that such exploitation is not unique to UFOs. It occurs across various industries and interests and should be addressed through consumer protection regulations and increased awareness.

Scientific Misunderstanding:

The conflation of UFOs with extraterrestrial life indeed highlights a common misunderstanding in the general public. However, it is important to recognize that this confusion can be an opportunity for education and outreach. Rather than dismissing the public's interest in UFOs as a lack of scientific understanding, scientists and educators can engage with the public to promote a clearer understanding of the scientific process and the importance of evidence-based inquiry.

The term "unidentified flying object" does imply that there is something in the sky that has not been identified, but it does not necessarily imply anything supernatural or alien in nature. By addressing the public's misconceptions about UFOs, scientists can use this topic as a gateway to explaining the significance of skepticism, investigation, and the critical evaluation of evidence in all scientific fields.

Distraction from Real Issues:

While it is essential to prioritize addressing pressing global issues like climate change, political conflicts, and social problems, it is unreasonable to expect the public to focus solely on these matters at all times. Human beings have a natural curiosity about the unknown, and exploring topics like UFOs can serve as a temporary escape from the overwhelming nature of real-world challenges.

Moreover, advocating for the exploration of UFOs and the search for extraterrestrial life does not preclude addressing other critical issues. Society can multitask and allocate resources to address multiple challenges simultaneously. Furthermore, scientific research into UFOs does not have to be conducted at the expense of other fields; funding and resources can be allocated wisely to support various endeavors.

National Security:

From a national security perspective, it is understandable that unidentified aerial phenomena might be perceived as potential threats. However, the emphasis should be on systematic and rigorous investigations rather than dismissing the subject outright. By conducting thorough research and analysis, governments can determine whether there is any genuine security concern.

Moreover, the study of UFOs does not have to divert substantial resources from other national security endeavors. Governments can allocate appropriate budgets and personnel to investigate the phenomenon while continuing to address other security challenges. Rather than viewing UFO research as a distraction, it can be seen as an opportunity to advance aerospace technologies and enhance defense capabilities.

Stigma and Career Impact:

While it is unfortunate that some professionals in academia or scientific fields may face stigma due to their association with UFO research, it is crucial to foster an environment that encourages intellectual curiosity and open-mindedness. Scientific progress has often been made when researchers explored unconventional ideas, and the study of UFOs should not be an exception.

Promoting inclusivity and diversity of research topics within scientific communities can enrich the overall scientific landscape and lead to innovative breakthroughs. Encouraging scientists to explore diverse subjects can enhance their ability to think critically and creatively, benefiting not only their careers but also the advancement of knowledge.

In conclusion, the issues related to UFOs are complex and multifaceted. While there are legitimate concerns regarding misinformation, personal harm, scientific misunderstanding, distractions, national security, and career impact, it is essential to address these issues without generalizing or stigmatizing the entire UFO community. By engaging in constructive discussions, promoting scientific literacy, and encouraging responsible research, society can better navigate the challenges and opportunities presented by the fascination with UFOs.

I specifically was giving answers to someone who asked, what hysteria.

Formatted it into a easy to read post.

You're angry that I used a tool to format my response, that you just spam a giant wall of text to spite me?

At least I stand by what I posted. Did you read all that, and edit and stand by it all? Or are you just spamming ChatGPT which you seemed to imply was not a good thing to do...?

One of these arguments is (snip):

The conflation of UFOs with extraterrestrial life indeed highlights a common misunderstanding in the general public. However, it is important to recognize that this confusion can be an opportunity

Rather than dismissing the public's interest in UFOs as a lack of scientific understanding, scientists and educators can engage with the public to promote a clearer understanding of the scientific process and the importance of evidence-based inquiry.

Chat gpt is essentially saying: "Misinformation is good, because it sets up an opportunity, to actually inform people of the truth later!"

 

[jarlrmai]

This is a troll post you just made.

I specifically was giving answers to someone who asked what hysteria.

Formatted it into a easy to read post.

You're just being argumentative, and antagonistic right now.

You asked ChatGPT and so so did I

 

[Ann K]

One statement in that article is particularly nonsensical, and is probably due to a misunderstanding by the writer, William J. Broad.

"Over half of all U.F.O. reports from the late 1950's through the 1960's were accounted for by manned reconnaissance flights'' over the United States, the C.I.A. study says.

That is almost certainly not the case; most UFO reports in that era, as now, were the result of misidentifications of stars, planets...

But @tobigtofool quotes this:
CIA: Most UFO sightings in 50s, 60s were of spy planes

A recently declassified CIA report on the development of the U-2 and SR-71 spy planes said the high-flying jets were mistaken for UFOs more than half the time in the late 1950s and 1960s during Project Blue Book, a Wright-Patterson Air Force Base operation that investigated reports of UFOs.

Please note, "most sightings were of spy planes" is NOT the same
as "the jets were mistaken for UFOs more than half the time", therefore the heading is a complete mis-statement of the text. One refers to the number of sightings that are planes and one refers to the number of planes that are sighted. It's the kind of bonehead misreading that can easily be made by someone who just skims an article, and once in the public eye, falsehoods and misinterpretations seem to have legs.

 

[tobigtofool]

You asked ChatGPT and so so did I

No i used chat gpt to form a clear point.

You copy and pasted a giant wall of text and didn't read it to be antagonistic:

You really want to play that game?

You're admitting you're playing a game here...

 

[Eburacum]

I don't mean to sound rude, but this doesn't really answer the question I'm asking. I'm asking if we have concrete examples of UFO sightings that were later revealed to have been explained by a U-2 spy plane. And if we do have concrete examples of such cases, do we have access to what the witnesses claimed to have seen?

No, I don't think we do.
Perhaps some first hand accounts are available in the work referenced by Gerald K. Haines (specifically Pedlow and Welzenbach, Overhead Reconnaissance, pp. 72-73.) But I'm not really very optimistic about that prospect. After all, it is only two pages.

 

[Ann K]

Yet neither of you can counter argue those points?

Just because I used a hammer doesn't mean I didn't build the house.

We asked for evidence of claims. You responded with more claims.

 

[tobigtofool]

"Over half of all U.F.O. reports from the late 1950's through the 1960's were accounted for by manned reconnaissance flights'' over the United States, the C.I.A. study says.

What are we debating here, are you trying to argue that most of the sightings reported in the area were actually TIC TAC alien ships or something, and not u2 spy planes?

 

[tobigtofool]

We asked for evidence of claims. You responded with more claims.

You are mixing up 2 separate conversations.

The question was, what hysteria, and I gave a list of it.

 

[Ann K]

This is a troll post you just made.

I specifically was giving answers to someone who asked, what hysteria.

I was the one who asked "what hysterics?", but so far you have just shown us your own hysterics about the subject and piled on more claims. And, as you should have figured out by now, your answers go to all of us rather than to one person, and any number of us may choose to answer you.

There are not "different conversations" going on here, when there are a number of people are involved on a topic.

 

[Ann K]

What are you on about, are you trying to argue that most of the sightings reported in the area were actually TIC TAC alien ships or somethig, and not u2 spy planes?

Go back and READ my post. That's a quote, and I was pointing out that one quote rebutted the other quote.

Road map to the topic: @Eburacum quoted Broad, the author of the Times story you presented, and expressed a disbelief that it was correct. Then you quoted a different story, with a headline that agreed with Broad, but had text in the article directly refuting the headline. My post explained the difference.

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics" indeed.