Debunking "Contrails don't Persist" with a Study of 70 Years of Books on Clouds

Mick,

Please explain to me how contrails emitt from the outer side tail section of an airplane as shown in the below video.

If you have already addresed this elsewhere then a link would be great

Thank you

[Broken YouTube Link]
 
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WeedWhacker

Senior Member
Please explain to me how contrails emitt from the outer side tail section of an airplane as shown in the below video.

I can answer: Perspective.

There is always a gap that appears clear between the engine exhaust nozzles and the beginning of the visible contrails. This gap will vary in length (due to specific conditions aloft), and of course the angle of viewing (perspective) will give illusions, based on the geometry of the airframe itself.

Also Mick does have a link here:
http://contrailscience.com/contrail-gaps-and-other-questions/

Question #10.
 

Balance

Senior Member.
As already advised, if you line-up the trail with the rest of the aircraft, you will find they match the position of the engines on the wing.
I'm suprised (or not) to learn non-persistent trails are also theorised as chemtrails.
 

Trigger Hippie

Senior Member.
As already advised, if you line-up the trail with the rest of the aircraft, you will find they match the position of the engines on the wing.

Also, in higher resolution photographs you can often see the contrail forming in front of the rear tail wings horizontal stabilizer. This pic is not of the same plane as in the video.

pl1.jpg
 
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WeedWhacker

Senior Member
Mick,

Please explain to me how contrails emitt from the outer side tail section of an airplane as shown in the below video.

If you have already addresed this elsewhere then a link would be great

Thank you


RE: This specific video, and the uploader (YouTube username 'Stormy13Wizard13'), I've been posting quite a bit, there. Perhaps naively thought I could actually make a difference using some real polite comments. Anyone else care to join in?

Rather than make screenshots (I will on request), those that can view the video AT YouTube will see what I mean. (PS: I'm "767Captain" there. Same avatar, just for recognition ease).

Thanks.
 
You know, I used to be a chemtrail skeptic but recent debacles such as the proposed HS2 rail link have made me question that. I mean, I can definitely see our government spending billions on a genocidal programme which has killed precisely zero people...
 
J

Joe

Guest
One problem I have in telling people that contrails can actually persist, and can even spread out to cover the sky, is that people tend to be suspicious of random people on the internet. So I decided to simply let 70 years of books on clouds speak for themselves.


Result: Every single book on clouds that I could find for the last 70 years says that contrails can persist for hours.

So next time some random guy on the internet tells you contrails can't persist and spread, then ask them why 70 years of books on clouds say the opposite.

My cloud book collection:


Selected References:

1991: National Audubon Society Field Guide to North American Weather
https://www.flickr.com/photos/metabunk/sets/72157644020551293/


1988: Exploring the Sky By Day, Page 49
https://www.flickr.com/photos/metabunk/sets/72157643850292503/


1981: Peterson Field Guide to the Atmosphere, page 137
http://www.flickr.com/photos/metabunk/sets/72157641675780313/


1972: Clouds of the World, page 130
https://www.flickr.com/photos/metabunk/sets/72157641669574294/


1969: Clouds and Weather. Page 28
https://www.flickr.com/photos/metabunk/sets/72157641629656855/


1957: Cloud Study: A pictorial Guide, page 79
https://www.metabunk.org/sk/1957CloudstudyapictorialguideOCR.pdf



1943 - Cloud Reading For Pilots, page 73
http://www.flickr.com/photos/metabunk/sets/72157642316592915/


The above are simply the books I personally own. There are many other books that can be found in scanned form on the internet:

1983: Encyclopedia Britannica:
http://books.google.com/books?id=SBM8AAAAMAAJ&q=contrails "last for several hours"


1975 International Cloud Atlas:
http://library.wmo.int/pmb_ged/wmo_407_en-v1.pdf
he says the book has been altered . this is from 2008 Mick or his blog post from 2009 http://tankerenemy.blogspot.com/2009/01/contrailsciencecom-fake-books.html
 

Bill

Senior Member.
According to The Library of Congress the ISBN 0811719618 was issued to two different books.
upload_2014-4-24_15-6-54.png
upload_2014-4-24_15-8-7.png
upload_2014-4-24_15-8-57.png
http://catalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?DB=local&Search_Arg=0811719618&Search_Code=GKEY^*&CNT=100&type=quick
So there's no real evidence of fraud on that issue.
As for the physical alterations it looks like a poor attempt to make it look like the book has been altered. Unless the claimed other altered editions can be produced as evidence, I'd say this is another Tanker Enemy fake. The existence of Mick's copy without the evidence of the extra pages, the tears or the tape reinforces the likelihood of it being a fake. Top it off with Tanker Enemy being considered an unreliable source by sites like ATS and Godlike Productions, homes to many chemtrail advocates, and the chances of the video being accurate are even further diminished.

The other thing that has to considered is that the copy hasn't been altered but is a production run mistake where partial pages have made it through the biding process and missed by quality control. I used to occasionally get something similar when I took the newspaper.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
And then there's the issue of all the other books that say the same thing, and the total absence of books that say anything else.
 

PCWilliams

Senior Member.
One problem I have in telling people that contrails can actually persist, and can even spread out to cover the sky, is that people tend to be suspicious of random people on the internet. So I decided to simply let 70 years of books on clouds speak for themselves.


Result: Every single book on clouds that I could find for the last 70 years says that contrails can persist for hours.

So next time some random guy on the internet tells you contrails can't persist and spread, then ask them why 70 years of books on clouds say the opposite.

Mick, just wanted to let you know i uploaded a copy of your video to my facebook page:

I cleaned up the sound a bit and added a walking bass line in the background.

Hope you don't mind.

:)

Paul
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Audio sounds a bit boomy now. I know it was rather crappy audio before, but I think I prefer the original. No worries though.
 

BigTBoom

New Member
Interesting account of a WWII dog fight from an article by Captain Burr Leyson called "Firepower, our air fighters knock out punch in combat!", printed in the September 1945 issue of Boys Life:

"Two fighters were locked in combat in the bitterly cold air of the sub-stratosphere nearly six miles above the steaming, fetid jungles of Guadalcanal. As they turned and swooped, each trying to bring his guns upon the other, their engine exhausts wove an intricate pattern of gleaming white vapor trails against the deep blue background of the tropical sky.."

http://books.google.com/books?id=_N...yATbxICYCA&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=true
 

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
Interesting account of a WWII dog fight from an article by Captain Burr Leyson called "Firepower, our air fighters knock out punch in combat!", printed in the September 1945 issue of Boys Life:

"Two fighters were locked in combat in the bitterly cold air of the sub-stratosphere nearly six miles above the steaming, fetid jungles of Guadalcanal. As they turned and swooped, each trying to bring his guns upon the other, their engine exhausts wove an intricate pattern of gleaming white vapor trails against the deep blue background of the tropical sky.."

http://books.google.com/books?id=_NU3fIn_HUEC&pg=PA6&dq=boys life captain Burr Leyson&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oOxvU-iVLNOyyATbxICYCA&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=true

Hello, "BigTBoom"....I think you might have hit the "Nail on the Head" (so to speak), but....at the risk of repeating an oft-repeated (??) link? Here's a really good one (AND yes, I used to read "Boy's Life"....back as a kid, in the dentist's office usually)... ;)



Just one more, for "good measure":

And, welcome to MB!!!>
 

BigTBoom

New Member
Quite possibly the oldest account of a contrail I think I've ever seen. The article was titled "Cloud Formation by Supercharged Plane" and it appeared initially in US Air Service magazine in July 1921 and was also sampled in the Monthly Weather Review, July 1921.

This line was particularly interesting:

"After 20 minutes the streamer had drifted and spread until it merged indistinguishably with other cirrus clouds visible."

Links...
US Air Service - July 1921, pg 13
http://books.google.com/books?id=NM...ASA24HgBw&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
(fyi, link goes pg 13 of Sept 1921, need to scroll to July...)

Monthly Weather Review, July 1921.
http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/mwr/049/mwr-049-07-0412c.pdf
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Quite possibly the oldest account of a contrail I think I've ever seen. The article was titled "Cloud Formation by Supercharged Plane" and it appeared initially in US Air Service magazine in July 1921 and was also sampled in the Monthly Weather Review, July 1921.

This line was particularly interesting:

"After 20 minutes the streamer had drifted and spread until it merged indistinguishably with other cirrus clouds visible."

Links...
US Air Service - July 1921, pg 13
http://books.google.com/books?id=NM87AQAAMAAJ&pg=RA6-PA13&dq=US air service 1921 issue&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wLd8U4WzNpPksASA24HgBw&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
(fyi, link goes pg 13 of Sept 1921, need to scroll to July...)

Monthly Weather Review, July 1921.
http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/mwr/049/mwr-049-07-0412c.pdf

See also:
http://contrailscience.com/pre-wwii-contrails/

which has a nearly 100 year old account of contrails.

In the autumn of 1918, in an account of Captain Ward S. Wells, Army Medical Corps, who was serving with the 60th Infantry, 5th Division, American Expeditionary Force, during the Meuse-Argonne campaign.

While these contrails are not persistent, they are described as being persistent for "60 degrees across the sky", and "long... looping", which implies more than a few seconds - especially at the very slow speeds of 1918

I didn't include these because they are just individual observations, not scientific accounts of what to expect. But of course they are still very interesting.
 

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
I see the most common misconception as "atmospheric conditions that lead to contrails are rare". we have cirrus clouds here more often than not, so the atmospheric conditions are not at all rare.

The other day I had cirrus and lower cumulous etc.. what was so interesting was some planes left persistent contrails and some planes none, BUT because of the way the clouds were layered you could easily SEE why. I took pics but unfortunately the 'layers'/different heights of clouds don't really show up in my pics ; (

Yeah, you are "spot-on" (as the British idiom goes).

I was watching a program originally aired on 'SKY1' in the UK, but now easily available to stream on-line. I wanted my mother to watch, because she enjoys ABC (the U.S. ABC) "The Amazing Race" because, as she notes: "I get to see the world".

Well, the 'SKY1' program is titled "An Idiot Abroad".

Ricky Gervais, Stephen Merchant and Karl Pilkerton (Karl, the "hapless adventurer"!). During THIS show (which travels the world) there are many, many scenes of the sky, in VERY remote areas, showing the SAME sorts of typical cirrus clouds that are, really, just part of normal meteorological events.

(here is just a clip, might not comport to my point....but, think of it as an "amuse bouche"):

[PS: It is a FULL episode!!!! LOL....it is Season (Series) 2, Episode 1:

The episode should be viewed in its entirety (for entertainment, it nothing else) but IN the episodes, if you pay notice to the skies in the video, it will explain MY point.....]:

 
he says the book has been altered . this is from 2008 Mick or his blog post from 2009 http://tankerenemy.blogspot.com/2009/01/contrailsciencecom-fake-books.html
Coming in a bit late here (hi, folks!) ... but this blog says :
Google books gives me : https://books.google.com/books?id=o...ved=0ahUKEwi5q7vB5oHUAhWIx4MKHWbFAp8Q6AEIKjAB

The Meteorological Magazine H.M. Stationery Office, 1953 - Meteorology

[ won't cut and paste ] ... observed on September 23, 1952. sims_1975_core7_07.jpg
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Just bumping this because of the mention in the Guardian article:
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...fornia-conspiracy-theorist-farmers-chemtrails
 
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