Debunking "Contrails don't Persist" with a Study of 70 Years of Books on Clouds

[Mick West]

So that's all still correct information?

As far as I could tell. Didn't got through it point by point though.

 

[Jazzy]

View attachment 6457

@deidre Yes indeed. Glorious.

I cannot believe that you forged this up since the other day, Mick. What massive presses you must have at your disposal. (This joke gets boring - Ed.)

 

[Mick West]

Alright, I've extended it to 71 years with:
1943 - Cloud Reading For Pilots
http://www.flickr.com/photos/metabunk/sets/72157642316592915/

 

[Balance]

This thread debunked by Max Bliss



p.s. I think they've twigged, they get more "hits" through MB.

 

[BlueCollarCritic]

Mick,

Please explain to me how contrails emitt from the outer side tail section of an airplane as shown in the below video.

If you have already addresed this elsewhere then a link would be great

Thank you

[Broken YouTube Link]

 

[WeedWhacker]

Please explain to me how contrails emitt from the outer side tail section of an airplane as shown in the below video.

I can answer: Perspective.

There is always a gap that appears clear between the engine exhaust nozzles and the beginning of the visible contrails. This gap will vary in length (due to specific conditions aloft), and of course the angle of viewing (perspective) will give illusions, based on the geometry of the airframe itself.

Also Mick does have a link here:
http://contrailscience.com/contrail-gaps-and-other-questions/

Question #10.

 

[Balance]

As already advised, if you line-up the trail with the rest of the aircraft, you will find they match the position of the engines on the wing.
I'm suprised (or not) to learn non-persistent trails are also theorised as chemtrails.

 

[Trigger Hippie]

As already advised, if you line-up the trail with the rest of the aircraft, you will find they match the position of the engines on the wing.

Also, in higher resolution photographs you can often see the contrail forming in front of the rear tail wings horizontal stabilizer. This pic is not of the same plane as in the video.

 

[WeedWhacker]

... in front of the rare tail wings.

Or, horizontal stabilizer.

 

[Trigger Hippie]

You debunkers and your fancy facts.

 

[Mick West]

See also:
http://contrailscience.com/how-big-is-the-gap-between-contrails-and-engines/

 

[WeedWhacker]

Mick,

Please explain to me how contrails emitt from the outer side tail section of an airplane as shown in the below video.

If you have already addresed this elsewhere then a link would be great

Thank you

RE: This specific video, and the uploader (YouTube username 'Stormy13Wizard13'), I've been posting quite a bit, there. Perhaps naively thought I could actually make a difference using some real polite comments. Anyone else care to join in?

Rather than make screenshots (I will on request), those that can view the video AT YouTube will see what I mean. (PS: I'm "767Captain" there. Same avatar, just for recognition ease).

Thanks.

 

[Mick West]

Found this in a second hand bookstore yesterday for $3

 

[Lobster Johnson]

You know, I used to be a chemtrail skeptic but recent debacles such as the proposed HS2 rail link have made me question that. I mean, I can definitely see our government spending billions on a genocidal programme which has killed precisely zero people...

 

[Mick West]

Added another one to my physical collection.

1991: National Audubon Society Field Guide to North American Weather
https://www.flickr.com/photos/metabunk/sets/72157644020551293/

Had a nice image of multiple spreading contrails.

 

[Joe]

One problem I have in telling people that contrails can actually persist, and can even spread out to cover the sky, is that people tend to be suspicious of random people on the internet. So I decided to simply let 70 years of books on clouds speak for themselves.



Result: Every single book on clouds that I could find for the last 70 years says that contrails can persist for hours.

So next time some random guy on the internet tells you contrails can't persist and spread, then ask them why 70 years of books on clouds say the opposite.

My cloud book collection:

Selected References:

1991: National Audubon Society Field Guide to North American Weather
https://www.flickr.com/photos/metabunk/sets/72157644020551293/

1988: Exploring the Sky By Day, Page 49
https://www.flickr.com/photos/metabunk/sets/72157643850292503/

1981: Peterson Field Guide to the Atmosphere, page 137
http://www.flickr.com/photos/metabunk/sets/72157641675780313/

1972: Clouds of the World, page 130
https://www.flickr.com/photos/metabunk/sets/72157641669574294/

1969: Clouds and Weather. Page 28
https://www.flickr.com/photos/metabunk/sets/72157641629656855/

1957: Cloud Study: A pictorial Guide, page 79
https://www.metabunk.org/sk/1957CloudstudyapictorialguideOCR.pdf

1943 - Cloud Reading For Pilots, page 73
http://www.flickr.com/photos/metabunk/sets/72157642316592915/

The above are simply the books I personally own. There are many other books that can be found in scanned form on the internet:

1983: Encyclopedia Britannica:
http://books.google.com/books?id=SBM8AAAAMAAJ&q=contrails "last for several hours"

1975 International Cloud Atlas:
http://library.wmo.int/pmb_ged/wmo_407_en-v1.pdf

he says the book has been altered . this is from 2008 Mick or his blog post from 2009 http://tankerenemy.blogspot.com/2009/01/contrailsciencecom-fake-books.html

 

[Mick West]

he says the book has been altered . this is from 2008 Mick or his blog post from 2009 http://tankerenemy.blogspot.com/2009/01/contrailsciencecom-fake-books.html

Looks unaltered to me. And books from the same publisher sometimes had the same ISBN. Plus, there's many other books.

 

[Joe]

Looks unaltered to me. And books from the same publisher sometimes had the same ISBN. Plus, there's many other books.

Well from what he said ( In Italian ) his any many other copies are altered

 

[Mick West]

His copy had a page missing and some rips. That's all.

Several people have copies of this book. Theres 17 for sale for different places on Amazon right now. Mostly ex-library. There are probably some still in libraries.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-list...d_used_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=used&sr=&qid=

Here's a video of my book. Does it look fake?

 

[Joe]

His copy had a page missing and some rips. That's all.

Several people have copies of this book. Theres 17 for sale for different places on Amazon right now. Mostly ex-library. There are probably some still in libraries.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-list...d_used_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=used&sr=&qid=

Here's a video of my book. Does it look fake?

nope

 

[Bill]

nope

According to The Library of Congress the ISBN 0811719618 was issued to two different books.

http://catalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?DB=local&Search_Arg=0811719618&Search_Code=GKEY^*&CNT=100&type=quick
So there's no real evidence of fraud on that issue.
As for the physical alterations it looks like a poor attempt to make it look like the book has been altered. Unless the claimed other altered editions can be produced as evidence, I'd say this is another Tanker Enemy fake. The existence of Mick's copy without the evidence of the extra pages, the tears or the tape reinforces the likelihood of it being a fake. Top it off with Tanker Enemy being considered an unreliable source by sites like ATS and Godlike Productions, homes to many chemtrail advocates, and the chances of the video being accurate are even further diminished.

The other thing that has to considered is that the copy hasn't been altered but is a production run mistake where partial pages have made it through the biding process and missed by quality control. I used to occasionally get something similar when I took the newspaper.

 

[Mick West]

And then there's the issue of all the other books that say the same thing, and the total absence of books that say anything else.

 

[Joe]

His copy had a page missing and some rips. That's all.

Several people have copies of this book. Theres 17 for sale for different places on Amazon right now. Mostly ex-library. There are probably some still in libraries.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-list...d_used_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=used&sr=&qid=

Here's a video of my book. Does it look fake?

Thanks for the video and the clarification . I will order one myself .

 

[PCWilliams]

One problem I have in telling people that contrails can actually persist, and can even spread out to cover the sky, is that people tend to be suspicious of random people on the internet. So I decided to simply let 70 years of books on clouds speak for themselves.



Result: Every single book on clouds that I could find for the last 70 years says that contrails can persist for hours.

So next time some random guy on the internet tells you contrails can't persist and spread, then ask them why 70 years of books on clouds say the opposite.

Mick, just wanted to let you know i uploaded a copy of your video to my facebook page:


I cleaned up the sound a bit and added a walking bass line in the background.

Hope you don't mind.



Paul

 

[NoParty]

Mick, just wanted to let you know i uploaded a copy of your video to my facebook page:


I cleaned up the sound a bit and added a walking bass line in the background.

Hope you don't mind.



Paul

Anything you can do to remove that fake accent?

 

[Mick West]

Audio sounds a bit boomy now. I know it was rather crappy audio before, but I think I prefer the original. No worries though.

 

[BigTBoom]

Interesting account of a WWII dog fight from an article by Captain Burr Leyson called "Firepower, our air fighters knock out punch in combat!", printed in the September 1945 issue of Boys Life:

"Two fighters were locked in combat in the bitterly cold air of the sub-stratosphere nearly six miles above the steaming, fetid jungles of Guadalcanal. As they turned and swooped, each trying to bring his guns upon the other, their engine exhausts wove an intricate pattern of gleaming white vapor trails against the deep blue background of the tropical sky.."

http://books.google.com/books?id=_N...yATbxICYCA&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=true

 

[WeedWhacker]

Interesting account of a WWII dog fight from an article by Captain Burr Leyson called "Firepower, our air fighters knock out punch in combat!", printed in the September 1945 issue of Boys Life:

"Two fighters were locked in combat in the bitterly cold air of the sub-stratosphere nearly six miles above the steaming, fetid jungles of Guadalcanal. As they turned and swooped, each trying to bring his guns upon the other, their engine exhausts wove an intricate pattern of gleaming white vapor trails against the deep blue background of the tropical sky.."

http://books.google.com/books?id=_NU3fIn_HUEC&pg=PA6&dq=boys life captain Burr Leyson&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oOxvU-iVLNOyyATbxICYCA&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=true

Hello, "BigTBoom"....I think you might have hit the "Nail on the Head" (so to speak), but....at the risk of repeating an oft-repeated (??) link? Here's a really good one (AND yes, I used to read "Boy's Life"....back as a kid, in the dentist's office usually)...




Just one more, for "good measure":


And, welcome to MB!!!>

 

[BigTBoom]

Quite possibly the oldest account of a contrail I think I've ever seen. The article was titled "Cloud Formation by Supercharged Plane" and it appeared initially in US Air Service magazine in July 1921 and was also sampled in the Monthly Weather Review, July 1921.

This line was particularly interesting:

"After 20 minutes the streamer had drifted and spread until it merged indistinguishably with other cirrus clouds visible."

Links...
US Air Service - July 1921, pg 13
http://books.google.com/books?id=NM...ASA24HgBw&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
(fyi, link goes pg 13 of Sept 1921, need to scroll to July...)

Monthly Weather Review, July 1921.
http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/mwr/049/mwr-049-07-0412c.pdf

 

[Mick West]

Quite possibly the oldest account of a contrail I think I've ever seen. The article was titled "Cloud Formation by Supercharged Plane" and it appeared initially in US Air Service magazine in July 1921 and was also sampled in the Monthly Weather Review, July 1921.

This line was particularly interesting:

"After 20 minutes the streamer had drifted and spread until it merged indistinguishably with other cirrus clouds visible."

Links...
US Air Service - July 1921, pg 13
http://books.google.com/books?id=NM87AQAAMAAJ&pg=RA6-PA13&dq=US air service 1921 issue&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wLd8U4WzNpPksASA24HgBw&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
(fyi, link goes pg 13 of Sept 1921, need to scroll to July...)

Monthly Weather Review, July 1921.
http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/mwr/049/mwr-049-07-0412c.pdf

See also:
http://contrailscience.com/pre-wwii-contrails/

which has a nearly 100 year old account of contrails.

In the autumn of 1918, in an account of Captain Ward S. Wells, Army Medical Corps, who was serving with the 60th Infantry, 5th Division, American Expeditionary Force, during the Meuse-Argonne campaign.

Our attention was first drawn to the sky by the sudden appearance of several strange and startling clouds–long, graceful, looping ribbons of white. These were tapering to a point at one end and at the other where they dissolved into nothingness 60 degrees across the sky, were about as broad as the width of a finger held arm's distance from the eye. On close observation we noticed some distance ahead of each cloud point the tiny speck of a chasse [sic] plane…. [N]ever before had I seen a plane writing in white upon the blue slate of sky.

While these contrails are not persistent, they are described as being persistent for "60 degrees across the sky", and "long... looping", which implies more than a few seconds - especially at the very slow speeds of 1918

I didn't include these because they are just individual observations, not scientific accounts of what to expect. But of course they are still very interesting.

 

[WeedWhacker]

I see the most common misconception as "atmospheric conditions that lead to contrails are rare". we have cirrus clouds here more often than not, so the atmospheric conditions are not at all rare.

The other day I had cirrus and lower cumulous etc.. what was so interesting was some planes left persistent contrails and some planes none, BUT because of the way the clouds were layered you could easily SEE why. I took pics but unfortunately the 'layers'/different heights of clouds don't really show up in my pics ; (

Yeah, you are "spot-on" (as the British idiom goes).

I was watching a program originally aired on 'SKY1' in the UK, but now easily available to stream on-line. I wanted my mother to watch, because she enjoys ABC (the U.S. ABC) "The Amazing Race" because, as she notes: "I get to see the world".

Well, the 'SKY1' program is titled "An Idiot Abroad".

Ricky Gervais, Stephen Merchant and Karl Pilkerton (Karl, the "hapless adventurer"!). During THIS show (which travels the world) there are many, many scenes of the sky, in VERY remote areas, showing the SAME sorts of typical cirrus clouds that are, really, just part of normal meteorological events.

(here is just a clip, might not comport to my point....but, think of it as an "amuse bouche"):

[PS: It is a FULL episode!!!! LOL....it is Season (Series) 2, Episode 1:

The episode should be viewed in its entirety (for entertainment, it nothing else) but IN the episodes, if you pay notice to the skies in the video, it will explain MY point.....]:

 

[Mick West]

Vindog discussion moved to:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/vindogs-contrail-questions.3879/

 

[WeedWhacker]

Vindog discussion moved to:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/vindogs-contrail-questions.3879/

Ooops....am I responsible for this?

Sorry, if so....

 

[deirdre]

The Changing Global Environement (Google eBook)

S. Fred Singer
Springer Science & Business Media,Mar 31, 1975

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ww...wAw#v=onepage&q=vapour trails persist&f=false

 

[Alan Fletcher (Alanf777)]

he says the book has been altered . this is from 2008 Mick or his blog post from 2009 http://tankerenemy.blogspot.com/2009/01/contrailsciencecom-fake-books.html

Coming in a bit late here (hi, folks!) ... but this blog says :

And that's not the end of it! When in this book there are references to the trails shadows it is used a very recent term: "distrail". This is a brand-new expression and not even onEtymonline.com is possible to find it. So it's manifest that this word, coming from N.A.S.A. theories, cannot be part of a book printed in the 1972! Even the "cloud" idiom, used to define condensation trails is very modern expression of this century.

Google books gives me : https://books.google.com/books?id=o...ved=0ahUKEwi5q7vB5oHUAhWIx4MKHWbFAp8Q6AEIKjAB

The Meteorological Magazine H.M. Stationery Office, 1953 - Meteorology

[ won't cut and paste ] ... observed on September 23, 1952.

 

[Alan Fletcher (Alanf777)]

Another 1953 link : https://books.google.com/books?id=S...ved=0ahUKEwi5q7vB5oHUAhWIx4MKHWbFAp8Q6AEIMjAD

General Electric Company. Research Laboratory, ‎Vincent J. Schaefer, ‎Irving Langmuir - 1953 - ‎Snippet view
This shadow effect sometimes looked like what has been called a distrail or dissipation trail by some observers. In several flights, dry ice was dropped from the aircraft while it was in the vicinity of the cirrus clouds. No effects were ever ...

 

[Mick West]

Just bumping this because of the mention in the Guardian article:
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...fornia-conspiracy-theorist-farmers-chemtrails

I play Tammi and Rob a YouTube video by Mick West, who runs the conspiracy theory-debunking blog Metabunk. Going through 70 years of books on the science of clouds, West explains why, depending on atmospheric conditions, contrails can either evaporate rapidly or persist and grow into sheets of cirrostratus.

 

[Serrara Fluttershy]

Atmospheric Physics: Background - Methods - Trends
Ulrich Schumann, July 17, 2012

Page 245:

https://books.google.com/booksid=q45NjC4ljAMC&lpg=PA245&dq=contrail%20persist&pg=PA245#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[Admiral Biscuit]

View attachment 6457

I saw that for the first time on a flight to Boston last October. I wondered if it had a name. I was gonna upload a picture of it, but never got around to it

 

[Rory]

View attachment 8255
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ww3DnCF_KZcC&pg=PA221&dq=vapour+trails+persist&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2AbbU9neNMqayATUo4D4DA&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=vapour trails persist&f=false

What does the 0.159 refer to?