Claim: Russian radar would have picked up MH17 missile

straightshooter

New Member
Russia has "discovered" radar data from July 17, 2014 days before the official criminal report is due to be released. See below:

http://www.rferl.org/a/russia-claims-mh17-images-not-rebels/28014798.html

A video presentation of the data can be seen here:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63L0gn0kcNI


The Russians are now claiming the radar that produced this data would have picked up any BUK missile fired at MH17 from rebel controlled territory because "there were no other objects in the vicinity of MH17 that could have caused its downing". Note this is a complete contradiction of the SU-24 story which the Russian MOD initially came up with shorty after the shootdown.

They have made 2 claims. They are:

1. That any missile fired must have been from Ukranian held territory because their radars would have picked it up if it originated from rebel held territory.

2. Their radar picked up a UAV near the border which is much smaller and fare more difficult to detect on radar compared to a BUK missile.

Do these claims have any veracity? Is it likely that a missile fired at mach 3 + towards MH17 would have been picked up on radar?

And is a UAV drone more likely to be detected on radar compared to a Mach 3+ BUK missile?

I find the claims rather dubious because Russia also goes on to say "we cannot determine whether a missile was launched from west or south of the aircraft". They also go on to accuse Ukraine of withholding raw radar data which is ridiculous because Ukranian primary radar was out of service at the time of the crash and all secondary radar data was turned over.

Expert debunk welcome.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
Without being able to quantify anything, a drone closer to the radar gives a much better return because of the distance. Also drones tend to have highly reflective things like angles and propellors that make for great radar returns.

the radar covered plenty of both Ukrainian Govt and rebel held territory - that is a meaningless distinction.
 

gsobjc

New Member
Russians didn't abandon Ukrainian fighter jet version. B/c there is no one and never was
(except for some russian media's speculations but speculations can be found in the western
media too). It is western media twisted facts and Russian claims.
The original Russian claim was "a fighter jet was detected, presumably Su-25, in vicinity of MH17".
No claim that it was the fighter jet the culprit.
Their new Ust-Donetsk radar's data aims to pinpoint the fact that there was no flying object
from Snizhne towards the flight MH17. Any object with trajectory perpendicular to the Ust-Donetsk
radar's beam is invisible to the radar due to limitations of Doppler type radars.

Some excerpt from a description of flight simulator F-19:



Almost the same wording as of Russian representative of the radar's producer.

More of Russian position is here
 

MikeC

Closed Account
The russian claim was innuendo - which makes it not less real for being "just asking questions"

- Russian defence ministry statement

Even the claim that here was a Su-25 in the area is a lie.
 

straightshooter

New Member
Russians didn't abandon Ukrainian fighter jet version. B/c there is no one and never was
(except for some russian media's speculations but speculations can be found in the western
media too). It is western media twisted facts and Russian claims.
The original Russian claim was "a fighter jet was detected, presumably Su-25, in vicinity of MH17".
No claim that it was the fighter jet the culprit.
Their new Ust-Donetsk radar's data aims to pinpoint the fact that there was no flying object
from Snizhne towards the flight MH17. Any object with trajectory perpendicular to the Ust-Donetsk
radar's beam is invisible to the radar due to limitations of Doppler type radars.

Some excerpt from a description of flight simulator F-19:



Almost the same wording as of Russian representative of the radar's producer.

More of Russian position is here
No fighter jet claim you say.

This RT documentary suggests otherwise:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuoIw3jBV4g


Also let's not forget this nonsense:

https://www.rt.com/news/217295-mh17-ukraine-military-plane/


It's pretty clear to all that Russia was implying/claiming that a Ukranian fighter jet was responsible for the shootdown of MH17. And even if they weren't what happened to this magical Ukranian fighter jet that has now disappeared on the latest set od radar data released by the Russians? Who by the way did not submit the data to the JIT.
 

straightshooter

New Member
Also what are the specifications of the Russian Radar? How often does one sweep take? Because the missile moves at Mach 3-4 I have a hard time imaging any radar would be able to detect it simply because of its small size and speed.
 

gsobjc

New Member
- Russian defence ministry statement
.
No claims that the fighter jet shot down MH17 from MoD

No fighter jet claim you say.

This RT documentary suggests otherwise:
RT are not Russian officials.
 

gsobjc

New Member
Also what are the specifications of the Russian Radar? How often does one sweep take? Because the missile moves at Mach 3-4 I have a hard time imaging any radar would be able to detect it simply because of its small size and speed.
According to LEMZ (the producer):
the sweep time 9.6 secs
The Buk missile has RCS 3m2 backward and 0.3m2 forward
The missile from Snizhne (32-36secs of flight time minus 4 secs while it is below 5km, undetectable) detection probability (at least one blip) is 99.9875%.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
No claims that the fighter jet shot down MH17 from MoD
The claim was innuendo, as I clearly explained.

RT are not Russian officials.
RT.com is an explicitly government owned and controlled source, and is a core organisation of strategic importance to the state.

however I note this:

https://sputniknews.com/world/20150822/1026072119/mh17-shot-down-by-ukrainian-su25.html

sputnik is, of course, a news outlet of Rossiya Segodnya - the Russian Government controlled news agency, created by executive order of the Russian President in 2013.
 
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gsobjc

New Member
The claim was innuendo, as I clearly explained.
Innuendo is western propaganda with photoshoped pics, videos and clearly staged(for native Russian
speakers) taps.

RT.com is an explicitly government owned and controlled source, and is a core organisation of strategic importance to the state.
BBC is also government controlled but that doesn't make them UK officials.
They are a bunch of journalists as RT.

however I note this:

https://sputniknews.com/world/20150822/1026072119/mh17-shot-down-by-ukrainian-su25.html

sputnik is, of course, a news outlet of Rossiya Segodnya - the Russian Government controlled news agency, created by executive order of the Russian President in 2013.
Ha-ha. Former....

By the way what you did not mention is that Rutskoi is a former Su-25 pilot having flown above 10 km
in Afghanistan. So he could be considered an expert on the issue.
 

straightshooter

New Member
Let's cut the nonsense, the innuendo from the Russian MOD presentation on July 21 2014 was that the Sukhoi was involved in the shootdown of MH17.

Now the Sukhoi has disappeared completely from the radar "data" presented by the MOD. I don't see any reasonable explanation for the Sukhoi disappearing from the radar data.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
Innuendo is western propaganda with photoshoped pics, videos and clearly staged(for native Russian speakers) taps.



BBC is also government controlled but that doesn't make them UK officials.
They are a bunch of journalists as RT.
whether BBC is that or not is irrelevant to whether RT is also that



Ha-ha. Former....

By the way what you did not mention is that Rutskoi is a former Su-25 pilot having flown above 10 km
in Afghanistan. So he could be considered an expert on the issue.
there has never been any serious doubt that some marks of the the Su-25 CAN fly at 10,000m.....

However I am pleased that you are finally admitting, albeit indirectly, that eh Russian claim exists and is rubbish.
 

TEEJ

Senior Member
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...apples-with-russian-radar-data-format-434313/
 
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