WTC: Molten Steel - Was there any? Why? What About the Hot Spots?

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George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Yes, George. That's an interesting categorical statement.

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You are saying deforming steel and then colliding them into a rubble pile and compression will result in hot spots of many hundreds of degrees despite paper being found in the compressed clumps . . . is that your theory?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
It is true that free-falling pieces of steel get marginally warmer by only a few degrees. I made it less than your figure.

But that's by-the-by.

Every time another floor was punched off the core during the collapse, the reaction loads would have been expressed at the basement foundations to the core columns.

Every time any piece of steel struck any steel beneath it, some of that energy would have been immediately transferred to the lower of the two pieces at the speed of sound in steel. This would have cascaded that available energy downwards towards the bottom of the increasing pile, where the most intense energy transfers would have been taking place. The bottom of the pile would have been a net receiver of energy from the top. This would have served to raise temperatures in the basement way above the free fall norm.

The exact amount of energy resulting as heat is not so easily expressed, as some of the dynamic energy became seismic as the ground deflected/vibrated, as Mick has pointed out, but the origin of the energy which resulted in the basement temperatures was unquestionably the tower's potential energy.

Perhaps you should read the thread again.
I disagree. Why would the "bottom of the pile" be a net receiver? Energy transfer is not an energy sink. The foundations simply spread out and transfer the impulses to the bedrock.

 
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Harry_B

New Member
Bend a paper clip until it breaks. How hot can you make it?
Not as hot as if I would hammer onto it, but when I hit the hammer with the paper clip, it does not work.

Below are snippets from earlier in this thread (which is hard to work through completely and comprisingly):
What do you think happened to all that energy?"
Yes indeed. Where DID it go?
It heated up the rubble pile by a maximum of 4 C in average, because of all that heat capacity.

The civil engineering foundations - the plate-to-slab interfaces, were where the real action occurred.
This cannot explain the molten steel the firemen were talking about "running down the channel rails" because the foundation is already at the lowest level.

The steel would rapidly alloy itself at those temperatures.....then appear to be molten, but would no longer be steel, but iron sulfide.
This is disproved by experiment:

 

Jazzy

Closed Account
You are saying deforming steel and then colliding them into a rubble pile and compression will result in hot spots of many hundreds of degrees despite paper being found in the compressed clumps . . . is that your theory?
"In a few places what might have been carbonized, compressed stacks of paper stuck out edgewise like graphite deposits.”

Reread.
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
I disagree. Why would the "bottom of the pile" be a net receiver? Energy transfer is not an energy sink. The foundations simply spread out and transfer the impulses to the bedrock.
I know you disagree.

Another way to look at it is the relative state of compaction between the top and the bottom of the pile. The top was lightly compacted, and the bottom very greatly compacted. The compaction, being work done, was greatest at the bottom. Therefore the most work was done at the bottom.

The work done will have had to have manifested itself as heat.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I know you disagree.

Another way to look at it is the relative state of compaction between the top and the bottom of the pile. The top was lightly compacted, and the bottom very greatly compacted. The compaction, being work done, was greatest at the bottom. Therefore the most work was done at the bottom.

The work done will have had to have manifested itself as heat.
And were the hot-spots even at the bottom of the pile? I though they were just at random points?

Sorry Jazzy, fires (both existing and resultant) are a much simpler and more plausible explanation.
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
Not as hot as if I would hammer onto it, but when I hit the hammer with the paper clip, it does not work.
Try hitting it with, say, 100,000 tons of paperclips doing 120 mph.

It heated up the rubble pile by a maximum of 4 C in average, because of all that heat capacity.
"All that heat capacity" wasn't available. The collapsing tower directed mechanical energy downward through shearing fifty-plus floors from their supporting columns, and by deep compaction, leaving the heated basement and tangled steel well insulated with crushed wall boarding.

Those floors sheared off every horizontal beam and diagonal brace from the vertical interior core columns, and those reactions were felt by the grillage.

This is disproved by experiment
Sorry, but the experiment is totally out of scale, and disproves nothing at all. Alien Scientist and his uncle are well out of line with all their 9-11 rubbish. Their "thermite" experiments are stupid too. How do you ignite thermite? How hot does it burn? How can molten iron generated by thermite "pool" on a sagging floor? Answer - it can't, because at a temperature of 2,500 deg C it cuts straight through.

"Molten steel the firemen were talking about "running down the channel rails" was more likely molten light metal. There was at least fifty tons of it in the middle of a large "muffle furnace" in each tower. When hot enough, molten aluminum glows.
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
And were the hot-spots even at the bottom of the pile? I though they were just at random points?
"Random" is completely implausible.

Sorry Jazzy, fires (both existing and resultant) are a much simpler and more plausible explanation.
Imagine an express train* hitting a terminus at 120 mph. Would the ensuing fires exist because the train had to be in flames? Or would there be no fire if the train were not on fire?

* Or, more realistically, an ocean liner doing 120 mph.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
"Random" is completely implausible.


Imagine an express train* hitting a terminus at 120 mph. Would the ensuing fires exist because the train had to be in flames? Or would there be no fire if the train were not on fire?

* Or, more realistically, an ocean liner doing 120 mph.
There would be fire because something caught fire. Once can certainly imagine such a collision causing fires. The question is if it the collision alone creates enough heat to melt metal, or stay hot for weeks.
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
There would be fire because something caught fire. Once can certainly imagine such a collision causing fires. The question is if it the collision alone creates enough heat to melt metal, or stay hot for weeks.
I have already calculated that the gross energy available could raise 1200 T of steel to melt temperature. If the proportion of that energy were only 10% as a net amount, then that's still 120 tons of near-molten steel, which to me is perfectly plausible.

The square-cube law should tell you that such large amounts of material can easily stay hot for weeks when well-insulated. It is difficult for deeply-packed red hot steel surrounded by crushed insulation to sustain combustion because the flow of air is almost completely prevented. However it is possible for fire-fighting water and the sulfur in the wall-boarding to react with the steel at such temperatures to form a melted eutectic liquid. Such conditions are intensely corrosive to steel over weeks of time.

All these misconceptions are due to the grand scale of these events.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
A couple of thoughts, from my own experiences. It is quite possible for something to stay hot for awhile, if it is insulated. I know this is just about wood coal, but, it does illustrate that. Some years ago, a group I was in was clearing brush off a site. We were burning it. Most of this brush was vines and such, not hardwood. As it got dark we covered the fire pit, since we intended to come back the next day and work on the site some more. We awoke to find a cold rain falling that then changed to snow---forget working. When we came back the next weekend and uncovered the fire pit, the coals were still hot enough to start the new brush burning.

The other personal experience comes from a type of pottery, called Raku. In Raku the pots are pulled from the Kiln when they are glowing red hot and placed in a container with newpaper or hay or straw. As soon as you put them in, the paper catches fire, so you put a tight fitting lid on the container. In 15-20 min, you take the lid off. You have to have a water hose handy to put out the fire that erupts.

The points I am trying to make is that areas could have stayed hot easily for a long time and that when oxygen got to the fires, the fires restarted. Hot enough to melt metal? I don't know
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
The points I am trying to make is that areas could have stayed hot easily for a long time and that when oxygen got to the fires, the fires restarted.
Absolutely.

Hot enough to melt metal? I don't know
Steel is an iron alloy with a small proportion of carbon. The carbon lowers the melt temperature of the pure iron (1545 deg C) a little. Sulfur can lower that temperature by 300 deg C.

Steel above around 1200 deg C that is surrounded by steam/water and gypsum is reactive enough to absorb sulfur ions, which migrate to populate the main body of the steel over time. The "solid" iron/sulfur alloy will melt, if it doesn't corrode faster than it melts. It's an accelerated corrosion process due to the high temperatures involved.

This would be common only where all the above conditions were met. In that compressed junk pile it must have been a rare event. But definitely not an impossible event.
 

slenderbeam

Member
Those floors sheared off every horizontal beam and diagonal brace from the vertical interior core columns, and those reactions were felt by the grillage.
I've always believed that immense heat was justifiable through some complex energy transfer due to the scale of the collapse.

However, given the typical floor truss seat/connection detail I disagree that the individual column grillages would have received enough load to generate heat (if that's what you're implying). The truss connections were basically paperclips - not much resistance (end therefore energy transfer) against a mass of falling floors from above.

IMO these connections were the single weakest link.
 

Jaysen

New Member
http://allforthegreatergood.com/AmericanParty.tv/ <Credible People saying 9/11 was planned. These people are more credible than you guys.

Our country needs our help. Please take action.
Lieutenant Colonel Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force Director of Advanced Space Programs, under Presidents Ford and Carter
"The official story, the official conspiracy theory of 9/11 is a bunch of hogwash. It's impossible. There's a second group of facts having to do with the cover up. Taken together these things prove that high levels of our government don't want us to know what happened and who's responsible." --Lt. Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, former U.S. Air Force Director of Advanced Space Programs Development under Presidents Ford and Carter, Doctorate of Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering from Cal Tech University.
Our two-party system is broken. Our country is being stolen by criminal conspirators. Supranational banking and finance oligarchs have hijacked our federal government by infiltrating and controlling both the democratic and republican parties for their own wickedness.
Now is the time for "We the People" to peacefully, legally, and lawfully organize our military forces, police, and other officials to take back our stolen Country with the brilliant mechanisms that our founding fathers provided within our Constitution to protect our Freedom. We must act now before it is too late!
 
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Critical Thinker

Senior Member.
http://allforthegreatergood.com/AmericanParty.tv/ <Credible People saying 9/11 was planned. These people are more credible than you guys.

Our country needs our help. Please take action.
Lieutenant Colonel Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force Director of Advanced Space Programs, under Presidents Ford and Carter
"The official story, the official conspiracy theory of 9/11 is a bunch of hogwash. It's impossible. There's a second group of facts having to do with the cover up. Taken together these things prove that high levels of our government don't want us to know what happened and who's responsible." --Lt. Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, former U.S. Air Force Director of Advanced Space Programs Development under Presidents Ford and Carter, Doctorate of Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering from Cal Tech University.
Our two-party system is broken. Our country is being stolen by criminal conspirators. Supranational banking and finance oligarchs have hijacked our federal government by infiltrating and controlling both the democratic and republican parties for their own wickedness.
Now is the time for "We the People" to peacefully, legally, and lawfully organize our military forces, police, and other officials to take back our stolen Country with the brilliant mechanisms that our founding fathers provided within our Constitution to protect our Freedom. We must act now before it is too late!

I think that there is a logical fallacy called 'Appeal to Authority", which is where someone says 'because an authority says something, then it must be true'. However if the authority were to produce evidence that can then be subject to peer review by other authorities and they all concur, then there is probably something there.
 
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Cairenn

Senior Member.
He is the guy that wrote this also

http://rense.com/general78/pdet.htm

He seems to be a fairly long time peace activist and he has run for a variety of political offices with no success.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
He is the guy that wrote this also

http://rense.com/general78/pdet.htm

He seems to be a fairly long time peace activist and he has run for a variety of political offices with no success.
Shame there aren't more like him. I hope there is but we just haven't heard of them yet.

What he says is obviously right and true.

The reason America chose to fight the Crown was because King George was mad... how is this different.
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
I've always believed that immense heat was justifiable through some complex energy transfer due to the scale of the collapse.

However, given the typical floor truss seat/connection detail I disagree that the individual column grillages would have received enough load to generate heat (if that's what you're implying). The truss connections were basically paperclips - not much resistance (end therefore energy transfer) against a mass of falling floors from above.

IMO these connections were the single weakest link.
What remained standing after the collapse? Some of the vertical core columns. These columns were stripped of every cross beam and diagonal brace.

A moments reflection should convince you that ALL the forces involved in the above events HAD to be reacted at the column bases. As Mick has pointed out, this couldn't have ALL resulted as heat, in that some of it became seismic.

All that steel was hammered off the core columns. It was by no means just "paperclips". That core was beefy.
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
How about an appeal to the LAWS OF PHYSICS/ Metallurgy: Shear strength for 7075-T6 (strongest) aluminum 48,000 PSI, A36 structural steel 11,500,000 PSI. That is a 1:230 ratio

CAN YOU GUYS NOT SEE HOW IMPOSSIBLE IT IS TO SHEAR STRUCTURAL STEEL W/ ALUMINUM?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
How about an appeal to the LAWS OF PHYSICS/ Metallurgy: Shear strength for 7075-T6 (strongest) aluminum 48,000 PSI, A36 structural steel 11,500,000 PSI. That is a 1:230 ratio<br>
<br>
CAN YOU GUYS NOT SEE HOW IMPOSSIBLE IT IS TO SHEAR STRUCTURAL STEEL W/ ALUMINUM?
You are confusing shear strength with shear modulus. And "shear strength" actually depends on usage 48,000 PSI is listed as a shear strength of Aluminum, but 11,500,000 psi is the shear MODULUS of A36. A totally different thing.

Better to look at the yield strength:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yield_(engineering)
Here you can see that the yield strength of aluminum is higher than steel. But steel is a lot denser. It's not strictly relevant though. You can shear steel with water if it's moving fast enough.
 
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Cairenn

Senior Member.
My hubby worked on developing a water knife to cut jalapeno peppers. I was not aware of all the uses of a water knife until then
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
LMAO, you are now comparing cold rolled steel to structural steel, and NO tensile does not have anything to do w/ a SHEAR failure. You believe the plane made a "road runner" cut out, a clear indication of SHEARING. Maybe you should learn how metal is stamped out, and how much more force is needed to shear when the clearances are higher than specs call for. Tool making requires much Trig. Alum is NEVER used in a shearing die for steel, NEVER. Clearly a perverse understanding of engineering. Modules of shear are the same, unlike hardness scales.

YOU ARE USING WIKI FOR A REF, SUPER JOKE WHEN IT COMES TO ENGINEERING.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
LMAO, you are now comparing cold rolled steel to structural steel, and NO tensile does not have anything to do w/ a SHEAR failure. You believe the plane made a "road runner" cut out, a clear indication of SHEARING. Maybe you should learn how metal is stamped out, and how much more force is needed to shear when the clearances are higher than specs call for. Tool making requires much Trig. Alum is NEVER used in a shearing die for steel, NEVER. Clearly a perverse understanding of engineering. Modules of shear are the same, unlike hardness scales.

YOU ARE USING WIKI FOR A REF, SUPER JOKE WHEN IT COMES TO ENGINEERING.
I think you need to check again.
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
I've always believed that immense heat was justifiable through some complex energy transfer due to the scale of the collapse. However, given the typical floor truss seat/connection detail I disagree that the individual column grillages would have received enough load to generate heat (if that's what you're implying). The truss connections were basically paperclips - not much resistance (end therefore energy transfer) against a mass of falling floors from above. IMO these connections were the single weakest link.
I missed this comment previously, but it's interesting so I'll answer it. IMO you're correct when you say those links were crucial to the collapses. But they all allowed or caused asymmetries which completely altered subsequent events.

A collapsing and tilting tower becomes rapidly and totally unpredictable...
 
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