I just reiewed that thread again. Thyme debunks several of the claims of Mangels and Murphy:This appears the be the ATS thread that eventually led to that interview. It starts out as a forum for Dr. Lenny Thyme to answer questions about the WITWATS, which he really fails to do.
Lenny Thyme said:Speaking chemistry - barium and strontium are both alkali earth metals - similar to calcium and magnesium. They are larger than the normal divalent biological metals, but should not be toxic by themselves. Barium is used as an image contrast agent, Aluminum on the other hand is a major threat, at both low and high pH. I do not think that the spraying drives the pH in either water or land - just not enough mass present.
The problem with aluminum is two fold. First, it is a 3+ cation and so when it substitutes into bio-systems it replaces a calcium and another atom of sodium or potassium, in order to balance charge. This leaves a hole, which gets space filled by changing protein folding. This creates prion diseases, like mad cow and CJD. It is also strongly implicated in Alzheimer's disease. The second problem is that at physiological pH, aluminum is deposited as a precipitate Al2O3. This chemical is very inert. So inert that the bio-mechanisms of the body have no ability to remove alumina from the system. The only things that will remove it are physical processes, body chemistry is stuck. Enough and you start getting arteriosclerosis and blood pressure problems.
Lenny Thyme said:i am the chemist from the movie. The Mt. Shasta data that was used was good analytical data with proper quality control. The question of the source of the metals, aluminum, barium and strontium can not be addressed from those samples. There is a significant difference in water vapors from contrails and the clouds from chemtrails. I am a chemist - I will be pleased to address the chemistry questions that are brought up here.
Metals change their coordination sphere at different pH. The pH is a function of the acid/base levels of the environment. Most metals become oxidized as the pH rises - that is the water becomes more basic. Aluminum is definitely more mobile in acids than bases. The compound alumina - Al2O3 is inert to chemical reaction, but has significant bad effects in biological systems because it takes up space and cannot be removed by metabolic processes that require chemical reactions. It deposits where it is and requires physical removal over time.
Michael J. Murphy said:Let me correct you, not aluminum in free form. Not bio-available aluminum, and they propose to spray 10 to 20 million tons of aluminum oxide and aluminum oxide is different than different forms of aluminum. Aluminum is a highly reactive material which we proved in our film.
Denis Rancourt said:I'm going to surprise you, I happen to be a soil scientist, and I happen to be one of the ten top experts on environmental nanoparticles, I have a PhD in physics, and you can look at my most recent publication that was published in the top environmental science journal, and its about soils and how soils evolved. So I do have qualifications that are relevant to this discussion, and I have studied extensively soil acidification in relation to acid rain and so on, and I have been able to demonstrate to myself that soil acidification is not something that you can cause easily, because there are a lot of buffers to acidification, there are a lot of things that are way bigger than inputs from acid rain or some nanoparticles from rain coming down so I have a real hard time believing in these rather tenuous advances that these nanoparticles could be having that kind of impact.
There have been biologicals which have been found up there, many people believe that this is, in part, human experimentation. We have see a dramatic increase, for instance respiratory mortality, which in the past 5 years has gone from number 8 down to number 3 on the list of mortality. We are seeing profound changes in human health.
I really think they were initially a bit hasty in making claims about Aluminum, and now since they are true believers, they are stuck with them.
Michael J. Murphy said:The physicians and the scientists that we spoke to stated that aluminum oxide is toxic, I'm gonna argue that point till I'm blue in the face
We are showing this movie at the main library in Pueblo, CO on the 3rd monday of October. This is an excellent film, co-produced by G. Edward Griffin (he wrote The Creature from Jeckyll Island) which shows the spraying all over the US, including massive spraying attacks on an organic farm and commune in Hawaii. Their coconut trees have been so decimated, that they are now being forced to buy GMO coconuts from Monsanto. Apparently that is part of this whole plan, to destroy natural foods, so farmers must buy GMO seeds. The soils have been tested, and come up with high levels of aluminum and cesium. G. Edward Griffin has a project going where people are volunteering to send in info when they observe chemtrails. We should work together on this, so we have more power and effect.
This is an ordinance to ban chemtrail/geoengineering programs above and around the county of Maui that I am working on with a group of Maui residents and law makers. Please share and spread this important information.
Also, more information and related information can be found on my new website www.whatintheworldaretheyspraying.info. Thanks again for your continued support.
Michael J. Murphy
The ordinance, which is currently being sponsored by several public officials and council members in the area, prohibits the release of aerosols and other particulates into the atmosphere without informed consent from the people of Maui County.
... prohibits the release of aerosols and other particulates into the atmosphere without informed consent from the people of Maui County.
As you pointed out Ross, that's clealy unenforceable.... prohibits the release of aerosols and other particulates into the atmosphere without informed consent from the people of Maui County.
Mr. G. Edward Griffin told me he was busy with other things. I will also ask him as part of a general information request in progress. It does generally negate the first claim about chemtrails, that persistence is a "rare" occurrance.Do you have any links to those findings? It would be good to have any of those documents, collected together with all the other failings of the hoax, accessible here on Metabunk.
Once we have independent proof of up close, video showing these is only contrails coming from the plane and Cleary nothing being sprayed then the war on chem/vs/contrail will be over. That is the only proof we need.. no science, just a simple test say over a year of video documenting these planes in flight and viewing how contrail are actually laid down up close and so close we can all clearly see nothing is being sprayed... how do we get "years" worth of video of all these planes from the back?...Sad in the 21st century we don’t have clear video from behind all these aircraft to put this debate to bed isn’t it…
why do we need science to prove these are contrails and not chemtrails.. all we need is " a Lot" of up close footage... if something is being sprayed we will see, and if not we will assume it is contrail.. why can't this be done? I wish it was done b/c now i'm wondering why and maybe its time to try and get some footage.... don't we have cameras powerful enought to zoom in on planes from the ground... I mean they may cost $250,000.00 but i'm sure we have them and some rich ass Chemtrail Conspirator could surely by one and get a close up view of them...
Michael J. Murphy said:For the record and for the integrity of the chemtrail/geoengineering movement, Truth Media Productions and Michael J. Murphy (President of the Coalition Against Geoengineering) are not at all supportive of statements made by some members involved in the filming of "What in the World are They Spraying?" who are also now involved in another film production and making claims that chemtrail/geoenginee...ring programs are not part of weather control. While we believe that there are many agendas behind these damaging programs, based on the abundance of evidence, weather control is a major factor as discussed in the promo video "Why in the World are They Spraying?" Let us not be supportive of deceptive propoganda that can create confusion and division in the movement.
Michael J. Murphy said:As Manglers states, soil sample are not at all a good indicator of atmospheric conatamination. Rain and snow test are. That is why we used them in WITWATS. In no way does your irresponsible comments deunk or ven prove the facts and all of the tests that show we are being sprayed: This is a response from Mangels:.Francis Mangels said:We have said for years we have some 1-2% aluminum naturally in the soils of our local volcanoes. I am sure this varies from mile to mile, creek bottom to hillside, volcano to volcano, etc. and the implication that we don't know this is insulting. Mr. J is unaware of many things, including that we have measured several soil variations to check whether the books were correct.
J shows extremely poor scientific method and logic on his part as J ignores all the other data and observations and goes for stuff I regard as relatively unimportant aspects of geology and soil morphology. "It's the rain and snow that is critical proof," I say, and that is nationally proven now. Add in the observations and over 400 other tests and Mr. J shows amazing disregard for facts.
It's merely his uneducated opinion whether 3000 ug/l of aluminum from samples only 20' apart is significant. It could happen, any scientist admits, but very very unlikely in such a uniform soil type where samples were taken. Plus, Mr. J never took any samples nor did any tests, Mr. J only has an opinion.
Opinions are equal value for anyone. Facts and observations are quite different
G. Edward Griffin said:As you can see from the following email, we have received a request from Jay Reynolds who has asked us to publish lab reports to substantiate the claims by field reporters who we have quoted on the CAGE web site. Although the reporters may be reluctant to provide those documents because Mr. Reynolds disagrees with our conclusions and likely will be looking for errors or discrepancies; still, I feel that it is important to comply as best we can. The reason, of course, is that not to do so could be taken as an indication that the data does not exist or that it is too flawed to stand the test of scrutiny. In fact, even without the urging of Mr. Reynolds, we, too, should have a chance to inspect these documents to help us better understand the significance of the data they contain.
The implication of his request is that we should make those lab reports available for inspection or remove the claims from our web site. I agree with that, don't you? Any other course weakens our case.
I wanted to share this interview from (12-7-11) with you because of the new info that was covered. Please listen and share this important message.
In this interview, George Noory asks the hard questions, and Michael Murphy does not hold back! What are they spraying? Who is doing the spraying, and last but not least, why are they spraying? The answers to the questions we have all been waiting for.
Recorded Live 12/7/2011. Murphy's interview starts at the 40 minute mark
Michael J. Murphy