DHS Funds Installation of White Boxes That Can Track Population of Entire City

A mac address lookup is only going to tell you the manufacturer of the wireless chipset, NOT the manufacturer of the device itself. Sow when you look up a mac address, you aren't going to see descriptions like: Samsung Galaxy S4, iPhone 5s. Youre going to things more like: Atheros, Realtek, Broadcom and varous other chipmakers. And your wireless chipset is hardly unique to your device and is very likely to be a common chipset used in numerous devices.

Apple devices actually have an Apple specific prefix, like mine is 30:F7:C5. But the point is still valid. There's no way of finding out who owns a particular MAC address just from detecting it. If you were spying on someone it would be much more sensible to take the phone company data - which would give you much more info than just the approximate location in downtown Seattle.
 
Apple devices actually have an Apple specific prefix, like mine is 30:F7:C5. But the point is still valid. There's no way of finding out who owns a particular MAC address just from detecting it. If you were spying on someone it would be much more sensible to take the phone company data - which would give you much more info than just the approximate location in downtown Seattle.
My last iPhone was a 3GS about 4 years ago... Completely forgot about that.

But even then, an Apple MAC address only indicates that it's an apple device which could mean any iPhone, iPad, iPod Touch, Airbook, etc. Nothing specific. And given Apple's popularity, what are the odds of two or more people using an Apple product within a block or so from each other in an urban area? Quite high I'd assume.
 
My last iPhone was a 3GS about 4 years ago... Completely forgot about that.

But even then, an Apple MAC address only indicates that it's an apple device which could mean any iPhone, iPad, iPod Touch, Airbook, etc. Nothing specific. And given Apple's popularity, what are the odds of two or more people using an Apple product within a block or so from each other in an urban area? Quite high I'd assume.

Close to 100% I suspect.
 
So here's a paper from a technology illiterate raving paranoiac conspiracy theorist who is "freaking out" big time over this little "tempest in a teacup".


Wi-Fi Positioning Systems:
Beware of Unintended Consequences

In this paper, we explore the identity and privacy issues that could arise from the unintended uses of the MAC address. Since the MAC address was designed to be persistent and unique over the lifetime of a Wi-Fi device, in a WPS, it identifies Wi-Fi devices that are closely associated with individuals – not only stationary routers, but personal laptops and mobile phones. When a unique identifier may be linked to an individual, it often falls under the definition of “personal information” through that data linkage and carries with it a host of regulatory responsibilities. The associated privacy issues range from lack of knowledge or consent of the mobile device owner for the use of the unique identifier, the possibility of unauthorized disclosure to third parties, or potential uses for secondary purposes.

The following observations and suggestions are made:

• Privacy is predicated on providing individual mobile device users with personal control, alongside openness and transparency on the part of the provider;

• In no case should the MAC address of an individual’s mobile device be collected or recorded without the individual’s consent; Privacy by Design is now the International Standard for privacy and should be considered at the outset, for a doubly-enabling outcome; therefore, engineers should use Privacy by Design as a standard to ensure that privacy is embedded into the architecture of various technologies and systems;

• When designing technical architecture, the potential for possible unintended uses should form part of a privacy threat/risk analysis;

• We must research and think creatively to find ways to embed privacy into Wi-Fi protocols that can randomize MAC addresses or ensure privacy through a proxy-like method of assigning addresses. Innovative solutions will be required to change the existing model of using persistent MAC addresses that remain uniquely bound to a mobile device.
http://www.identityblog.com/wp-content/images/2011/06/beware_of_unintended_consequences.pdf
Content from External Source
Incidentally, the paper was co-authored by another shrieking hysterical loon who probably derrived her understanding of the issue exclusively from alex jones. I'm really glad you guys are here to offer some level headed no nonsense perspective on the matter
 
I would ex expect a real spy grid to be much more dialed down and be designed to intercept cellular signals and capture IMEI information. It was a massive stretch to call any of these 'Snowden level documents', and I think we can mark this debunked.

I'm still not 100% clear on what is so terrifying about this to Alex Jones. Can anyone who believes this story enlighten me? The boston bomber got through the Illuminati's CCTV monitoring system. It's clear that more work should be considered being done on the surveillance front. On both Government and technological aspects. This seems to be a step in the right direction.
 
can you make arguments without quoting huge blocks of text from an infowars article?

I haven't referenced infowars at any point in this thread, that "huge block of text" comprised of 3 short paragraphs was taken from the local Seattle paper.


Can you make arguments without resorting to the genetic fallacy?
 
So here's a paper from a technology illiterate raving paranoiac conspiracy theorist who is "freaking out" big time over this little "tempest in a teacup".

...

Incidentally, the paper was co-authored by another shrieking hysterical loon who probably derrived her understanding of the issue exclusively from alex jones. I'm really glad you guys are here to offer some level headed no nonsense perspective on the matter

Kim Cameron is "freaking out"? Where?

I see him making a reasonable argument that MAC addresses should not be collected without consent, and some proposals for privacy be design. That's all. Nothing at all like the Infowars characterization.

Please set aside the sarcasm, and speak plainly.
 
I see him making a reasonable argument that MAC addresses should not be collected without consent, and some proposals for privacy be design.

So then you acknowledge that you were wrong and that MAC address collection and tracking is a real concern of serious people? That the practice does pose a risk to civil liberties and that regulation is needed and recommended by leading experts in the field of netsec?
 
But even then, an Apple MAC address only indicates that it's an apple device which could mean any iPhone, iPad, iPod Touch, Airbook, etc. Nothing specific. And given Apple's popularity, what are the odds of two or more people using an Apple product within a block or so from each other in an urban area? Quite high I'd assume.

You're missing the point. A MAC address for a mobile device can be tracked across the network area and with proper analysis of time and location and time spent at specific location can be used to ascertain an individual's schedule, identity, place of work, place of residence, consumer habits, friends, associates, recreational activities etc etc.

The fact that this information is being relayed to enormous federal databases via SPD's information sharing with DHS where it can be used for profiling, prediction, and assessment of any and all citizens is disturbing for many reasons.
 
So then you acknowledge that you were wrong and that MAC address collection and tracking is a real concern of serious people? That the practice does pose a risk to civil liberties and that regulation is needed and recommended by leading experts in the field of netsec?

I never said otherwise. What I said was this Seattle network really wasn't anything special. Basically just a WiFi network, with the same privacy concerns any WiFi network has.
 
You're missing the point. A MAC address for a mobile device can be tracked across the network area and with proper analysis of time and location and time spent at specific location can be used to ascertain an individual's schedule, identity, place of work, place of residence, consumer habits, friends, associates, recreational activities etc etc.

The fact that this information is being relayed to enormous federal databases via SPD's information sharing with DHS where it can be used for profiling, prediction, and assessment of any and all citizensis disturbing for many reasons.

How is that a fact? That sounds just like the Infowars spin.
 
How is that a fact?

It is a fact that the system does provide such data. It is a fact that with sufficient analysis such information can be extrapolated from the data. It is a fact that DHS funded the system. It is a fact that SPD shares the data collected through the system with DHS. It is a fact that DHS maintains databases of American citizens. It is a fact that DHS profiles and makes threat assessments of American citizens.


That sounds just like the Infowars spin.

It comes from the local Seattle paper, not infowars.

An SPD diagram of the mesh network shows its information heading to institutions large and small, including the King County Sheriff's Office, the US Coast Guard, and our local fusion center.

Fusion centers, if you're unfamiliar with the term, are information-sharing hubs, defined by the Department of Homeland Security as "focal points" for the "receipt, analysis, gathering, and sharing" of surveillance information.

If federally funded, locally built surveillance systems with little to no oversight can dump their information in a fusion center—think of it as a gun show for surveillance, where agencies freely swap information with little restriction or oversight—that could allow federal agencies such as the FBI and the NSA to do an end-run around any limitations set by Congress or the FISA court.
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/you-are-a-rogue-device/Content?oid=18143845
Content from External Source
 
What I said was this Seattle network really wasn't anything special. Basically just a WiFi network, with the same privacy concerns any WiFi network has.

Because the system is funded, directed, and administrated by state and federal law enforcement agencies the privacy issues involved here go far beyond simple personal digital security and extend into larger concerns over constitutional freedoms and civil rights.

But I also have to once again disagree with you in that the Aruba system is not just another wifi network. Aruba does not function solely as a communications network but serves as a surveillance system as well.
 
I have DD-WRT firmware installed on my router which gives you more functionality than the stock firmware loaded on consumer routers.

One nifty little function, although not highly useful is the quick lookup of MAC address on your network.

But for what it's worth, this should demonstrate what comes up in a mac address search.





Here is the mac address for my wireless Brother Printer_________________________________

My Network Access Server (skynet) runs a Netgear gigabit adapter. ___________



Even Yamaha has their own custom prefix.______________________________________



The Wireless adapter for my Samsung Galaxy aslo it's own custom prefix______________


Here's Sony's custom prefix.



My Samsung Laptop does not have a custom prefix______________________________



And here is the aging MSI motherboard in my PC. ____________________________________


And my antiquated Buffalo 802.11g router.____________________________________



I was unaware custom OEM prefixes for mac addresses were so common, perhaps it's a somewhat newer trend or I never really payed much attention. Granted the information is still vague and only indicates the brand of phone. Most smartphones look identical when inside a case. So I was incorrect in my earlier post, but even still a mac address doesn't tell you much. Like for Sony. Is that a Sony laptop, tablet, phone, gaming console, PC, TV? Same goes for Samsung or any other company who makes a variety of products. Yamaha makes high end keyboards, and pianos along with dirtbikes, and motorcycles.
 
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You're missing the point. A MAC address for a mobile device can be tracked across the network area and with proper analysis of time and location and time spent at specific location can be used to ascertain an individual's schedule, identity, place of work, place of residence, consumer habits, friends, associates, recreational activities etc etc.

The fact that this information is being relayed to enormous federal databases via SPD's information sharing with DHS where it can be used for profiling, prediction, and assessment of any and all citizens is disturbing for many reasons.

I think you're missing the point. Tracing a mac address to the devices owner would require extreme and difficult measures if it's to be done. That kind of "proper analysis" would have to be done by an actual spy, and that can be done with or without a "spy grid", and the mac address would be irrelevant. If this were a real spy grid for all intents and purposes, a mac address would not be what is used to track people. Any ordinary smartphone is equipped with devices that would do much better in regards to tracking a persons whereabouts and habits.

A real spy grid would most likely detect the cellular network signal that carries the IMEI number that is (in most cases) traceable back to the owner, it would also be capable of determining a persons location via signal triangulation and intercepting your GPS signal. To use a MAC addresses to track people would be asinine to say the least when there are far superior methods. The only dangers here are the same dangers that are present whenever you use a public wifi anywhere else. It's like being paranoid about the fingerprint sensor on the iPhone 5s as if nobody ever leaves their fingerprints anywhere else to be gathered by someone. If you're honestly this concerned with the government spying on you, my best suggestion is to completely abstain from any form of telecommunications devices. Anything that transmits and receives a signal (wireless or not) has the potential to be tracked in some way shape or form.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_tracking
 
You're missing the point. A MAC address for a mobile device can be tracked across the network area and with proper analysis of time and location and time spent at specific location can be used to ascertain an individual's schedule, identity, place of work, place of residence, consumer habits, friends, associates, recreational activities etc etc.
..

If they wanted to know that they'd just put you under actual physical surveillance for a week - tracking mac addresses is not a superior form of intelligence gathering compared to the old-fashioned kind.
 
I think you're missing the point.

The point is certainly being missed but it's not on my end.

Tracing a mac address to the devices owner would require extreme and difficult measures

I guess, if you consider an automated system monitoring a map, logging a location, and then running an address extreme and difficult measures, but then you and I have very different definitions of extreme and difficult measures.

That kind of "proper analysis" would have to be done by an actual spy

That kind of proper analysis would be done by an algorithm.

and that can be done with or without a "spy grid", and the mac address would be irrelevant.

The MAC address is crucial to this kind of WIFI positioning and tracking, it can't be done without a network or a grid overlay.



If this were a real spy grid for all intents and purposes, a mac address would not be what is used to track people.

This grid tracks MAC addresses, I don't know what else to tell you. It's a fact, look it up.


Any ordinary smartphone is equipped with devices that would do much better in regards to tracking a persons whereabouts and habits.

There are others means of tracking mobile devices, no doubt. This particular system however tracks MAC addresses over its network area.

A real spy grid would most likely detect the cellular network signal that carries the IMEI number that is (in most cases) traceable back to the owner, it would also be capable of determining a persons location via signal triangulation and intercepting your GPS signal.

I'm sure what you say is possible but that's not how this system works and this system does work very effectively. Department stores are known to use the same system to track customers through the aisles.

To use a MAC addresses to track people would be asinine to say the least when there are far superior methods.

Maybe the other methods have drawbacks, maybe there are laws and regulations in place that make them less attractive to these agencies? Anyway you dice it though, this is the system that's in place and it does have abuse and misuse built right in as its default setting. It can most assuredly track you all over town through your MAC address.

The only dangers here are the same dangers that are present whenever you use a public wifi anywhere else. It's like being paranoid about the fingerprint sensor on the iPhone 5s as if nobody ever leaves their fingerprints anywhere else to be gathered by someone.

Biometric ID for net access is another huge issue in electronic privacy and civil liberties circles.

If you're honestly this concerned with the government spying on you, my best suggestion is to completely abstain from any form of telecommunications devices. Anything that transmits and receives a signal (wireless or not) has the potential to be tracked in some way shape or form.

Love it or leave it, eh?
 
Ok, chiming in as a systems engineer who’s currently running a 20 node Aruba network…

The cameras are interesting, but I’m more interested in the mesh network… specifically the Aruba wireless access points.

the VisualRF part of the AirWave software allows you to track any wifi enabled device within range (connected or not), given that the WAPs have been configured in the VisualRF map.

I want to know if SPD is going to enable & use the RFProtect features, as well as the wifi tracking. These WAPs have the ability to scan & sniff wifi traffic as well as map and track wifi devices in real time down to a couple feet.

With the large coverage area of the mesh network, I’d say that has greater privacy implications than the cameras do.

As far as sniffing traffic, the WAPs can only see traffic flowing across them, so they’d only be able to see your traffic if a device is connected. The Aruba’s do have the ability to spoof SSIDs as well as set up honeypots, although I don’t think SPD would arbitrarily use those features. The tracking however doesn’t require an active connection, and can show any wifi enabled device superimposed on a map in real time. Basically, if you have a smartphone, they’ll see your phone’s name and unique ID wandering around a map in real time.
http://westseattleblog.com/2013/03/spd-surveillance-cameras-meeting-on-alki/#comment-985901
Content from External Source
 
I think we all agree roughly what the capabilities of a WiFi network are. The question is what they actually plan to do with it.

Basically all you have here is speculation. They could do this (but then so could the City of Long Beach, several years ago).

I agree there are issue of privacy and legality here. But I don't think there's anything particularly new or suspicious about this particular network. It's designed to stream video. The MAC logging is just an incidental feature that's useful for network diagnostics. It seems far less suspicious than the fact that the phone company knows where your phone is at all times - and not just in downtown Seattle.

The real bunk here though is in the Infowars interpretation of events, which is pure nonsense.
 
It is a fact that the system does provide such data. It is a fact that with sufficient analysis such information can be extrapolated from the data. It is a fact that DHS funded the system. It is a fact that SPD shares the data collected through the system with DHS. It is a fact that DHS maintains databases of American citizens. It is a fact that DHS profiles and makes threat assessments of American citizens.

It's incredibly speculative to jump for a network having the capability to record MAC addresses, to go all the way to Seattle transmitting them to the DHS to store in their massive databases and cross referencing them with threat assessments. You are connecting rather a lot of dots there.
 
The point is certainly being missed but it's not on my end.



I guess, if you consider an automated system monitoring a map, logging a location, and then running an address extreme and difficult measures, but then you and I have very different definitions of extreme and difficult measures.
that's a strawman. I said tracing a mac address bac to its owner would require extreme and difficult measures. A spy grid that can't reliably identify people in a timely manner is useless.


That kind of proper analysis would be done by an algorithm.



The MAC address is crucial to this kind of WIFI positioning and tracking, it can't be done without a network or a grid overlay.
The mac address is crucial to any IEEE 802x network. It provides a unique identifier to every network device so information can be transmitted and recieved to numerous devices on the same network.
This grid tracks MAC addresses, I don't know what else to tell you. It's a fact, look it up.

Just like any other large scale network.
There are others means of tracking mobile devices, no doubt. This particular system however tracks MAC addresses over its network area.
which proves absolutely nothing because all large scale networks have this capability.


I'm sure what you say is possible but that's not how this system works and this system does work very effectively. Department stores are known to use the same system to track customers through the aisles.
so department stores use public WIFI and mac addresses to track customers?
Got Proof?

I don't claim to be an expert in computer networking, but I'm fairly knowledgable on the subject. What makes you think this this network is designed specialty with the intent of spying. As I've said repeatedly. Its exceedi exceedingly to identify someone with a mac address. If your monitoring the patterns of people with security cameras and algorithms where does the Mac address come In to play? Hey there's a suspicious guy in that coffee shop. How does having his smartphone's mac address help in anyway?
Maybe the other methods have drawbacks, maybe there are laws and regulations in place that make them less attractive to these agencies? Anyway you dice it though, this is the system that's in place and it does have abuse and misuse built right in as its default setting. It can most assuredly track you all over town through your MAC address.
In an earlier post you pointed out the established precedence this country has for ignoring laws (which is true for the most part) to support the argument that this system is being used as a spy grid.
Now the reason for not employing far more effective methods is because it might be illegal.
Biometric ID for net access is another huge issue in electronic privacy and civil liberties circles.
do you have fingers? Do you touch things? You leave your fingerprints everywhere. Is it only privacy concern when electronics are involved? The problem here is that people assume that just because something has potential to Be used for malign purposed means that it is. You know if we put barbed wire and armed guards around all public schools, they can be used as concentration camps.
It's paranoia, nothing more.
 
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Now it seems that little story has given Infowars the excuse to call every box with antennas on it a part of a spy grid.
http://www.infowars.com/wi-fi-spy-network-installed-in-los-angeles/

Wi-Fi Spy Network Installed In Los Angeles?
Photos show white boxes attached to utility poles in residential areas

Paul Joseph Watson
Infowars.com
November 15, 2013

A series of photographs obtained by Infowars suggests that a similar wi-fi mesh network to the one which generated controversy in Seattle over its ability to track cellphone users is currently being installed in Los Angeles.



As we reported earlier this week, the $2.7 million dollar system, funded by a Department of Homeland Security grant, consists of a series of white wi-fi boxes affixed to utility poles with which authorities eventually plan to blanket the entire city of Seattle.

According to promotional material from Aruba Networks, the manufacturer behind the devices, the grid has the capability to track “rogue” or “unassociated” devices that are not even connected to the network.

After the controversy became national news, the Seattle Police Department said it would deactivate the network, although a day after that promise was made, the network was still active.

Is a similar system currently being installed throughout Los Angeles?

In February, the Wall Street Journal reported on Time Warner’s rollout of an outdoor wi-fi network in L.A. which was activated in the fall of 2012. According to the report, in January Time Warner announced that it would, “roll out 10,000 more hot spots in Los Angeles and other cities in the coming year.”

The photos obtained by Infowars suggest that this rollout is now gathering pace. The images, which were taken today, show white boxes with antennas similar to those in Seattle that are affixed to utility poles. One of the images shows an installation van emblazoned with the name of a company called ‘Wiring Connection’.

The boxes are being installed in residential areas on the outskirts of town away from the city center, suggesting that the rollout may have blanketed most of the city.

See the full set of photos below which suggest that a wi-fi network similar to the one in Seattle is being expanded across Los Angeles.

The question is – how much of your data is the network recording without your permission and has any consideration at all been given to the privacy implications?


Location: Maltman Avenue.

Content from External Source
 
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Some people seem to get a kind of weird thrill out of imagining they could soon be starring in a dystopic, near-future sci/fi/crime story, where "they" are tracking their every move.
 
Some people seem to get a kind of weird thrill out of imagining they could soon be starring in a dystopic, near-future sci/fi/crime story, where "they" are tracking their every move.

I assume you have been following the Snowden disclosures.

What symptoms would you require to have occurred before you will acknowledge that we live in a dystopic present sci/fi/crime story, where "they" are tracking our every move?
 
Now it seems that little story has given Infowars the excuse to call every box with antennas on it a part of a spy grid.
http://www.infowars.com/wi-fi-spy-network-installed-in-los-angeles/

In February, the Wall Street Journal reported on Time Warner’s rollout of an outdoor wi-fi network in L.A. which was activated in the fall of 2012. According to the report, in January Time Warner announced that it would, “roll out 10,000 more hot spots in Los Angeles and other cities in the coming year.”
Content from External Source
The Time Warner network has been here in Los Angeles for a few years. Not very high quality, just along major shopping roads.
http://coverage.twcwifi.com/


However quite capable of tracking MAC addresses of someone moving, if they decided to do that.


I can't even see it from my house, and I'm practically touching one of those dots, at the bus stop round the corner.

I think I'll pop out and see what it looks like.
 
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This is the TWC WiFi box round the corner from me:



There are many such networks across the country. Inforwars "story" saying:
A series of photographs obtained by Infowars suggests that a similar wi-fi mesh network to the one which generated controversy in Seattle over its ability to track cellphone users is currently being installed in Los Angeles.
Content from External Source
Is just fearmongering nonsense. Most of the population of the US is already covered by Time Warner's WiFi network, and has been for a year or two.
 
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I don't know about other people, but ever since 4G came out, I pretty much stopped using public wifis in restaurants and hotels, etc. because 4G is almost always faster. Especially in hotels.
 
I don't know about other people, but ever since 4G came out, I pretty much stopped using public wifis in restaurants and hotels, etc. because 4G is almost always faster. Especially in hotels.

I agree. I tried the TWC WiFi (it's free to me, as I get TWC internet at home), but it always seemed slower than 4G/LTE.

If someone wanted to track me, the 4G signal would be a much better way to do it.
 
I would imagine that such large scale public wifis would have to throttle bandwidth speeds for each individual user. So even if their using a T3 connection, I wouldn't be surprised if that translates to about 150Mbps per client. I don't know how they manage bandwidth issues across an entire city, but my experience with wifis in large places like hotels and airports is at times so bad that the internet is basically useless.
 
I would imagine that such large scale public wifis would have to throttle bandwidth speeds for each individual user. So even if their using a T3 connection, I wouldn't be surprised if that translates to about 150Mbps per client. I don't know how they manage bandwidth issues across an entire city, but my experience with wifis in large places like hotels and airports is at times so bad that the internet is basically useless.

The TWC boxes are connected directly to their cable network, so theoretically it should be as good as my home WiFi. Of course it depends on how many people are using a particular Access Point.
 
I assume you have been following the Snowden disclosures.

What symptoms would you require to have occurred before you will acknowledge that we live in a dystopic present sci/fi/crime story, where "they" are tracking our every move?

Someone is tracking you personally, you believe?
 
I assume you have been following the Snowden disclosures.

What symptoms would you require to have occurred before you will acknowledge that we live in a dystopic present sci/fi/crime story, where "they" are tracking our every move?
Proof that they are tracking our every move.
 
Would proof that "they" are tracking your every cellphone location (every few minutes forever) suffice?

I'd like to see an actual track of my location gleaned from my cell phone connection. Or someone's location. Surely this has at least shown up in court?
 
if they really are gonna track with shoddy wi if boxes that almost no one uses, uh, well, the new world order is pretty dysfunctional it seems.
 
I'd like to see an actual track of my location gleaned from my cell phone connection. Or someone's location. Surely this has at least shown up in court?

You are aware that your cellphone is triangulated continually.

This information is recorded forever.

I my country, it currently takes a court order to get this info, but who knows what the law will be like in ten years time. In ten years time a new government will have the entire history of my every movement this century (so will my service provider, so will my armed-response company).
 
You are aware that your cellphone is triangulated continually.

This information is recorded forever.

I my country, it currently takes a court order to get this info, but who knows what the law will be like in ten years time. In ten years time a new government will have the entire history of my every movement this century (so will my service provider, so will my armed-response company).

"Forever" sounds a bit much - what phone companies have said they are keeping the data indefinitely?
 
I'm still not quite sure why it your "dystopian" tracking system would be so bad. The NSA reportedly has the same thing. Though the story was first brought to media attention by lesser known civil liberty circles like infowars, so I highly doubt its credibility. Telecom companies have the same thing. Search engines have the same thing... Even internet marketing companies do the same thing. In fact, there is a way to get this website to track your IP address using simple programming scripts in user profiles. Though, I highly doubt Mick cares where you are! If the major governments and corporations are indeed tracking people, it's probably only in a very broad general sense. Like statistics, poll numbers, mac addresses. For Example, I work in a furniture company, and we "track" what our customers buy. We track where they buy stuff from, but that doesn't mean we are tracking the customer in their home! This is what infowars does. They take statistical data and claim that the government is tracking YOU!!!!! OMG!!!

Oh and back to the NSA story/Seattle Mesh Network. The government is NOT forcing you to use the internet. In fact, there are tons of choices out there to allow you to connect to the internet. If you think one method is too intrusive you can always choose a different service. This is free (i think) public wifi! When was the last time you personally used free city wifi? For me, it was when I went to the Tampa Airport two years ago! Yet, you still complain that it is encroaching upon your civil liberties. Well, you can always choose to NOT use the internet.
 
For the US, Richard Stallman told me. He campaigns for a three minute record deletion, unless under specific court order (he ain't against law enforcement).

For my country, it is part of our "communications act".
We also record, vehicle registration numbers along the road.

Forever.

And your country is much badder than my country:(!
 
When I was in college, I worked on an initiative and on a panel, with my professor to discuss what should be done to INCREASE the cyber security infrastructure of this country (USA) and countries around the world. We all agreed that it was time to talk about the serious lack of defenses and capabilities in our cyber security infrastructure. It should be a major policy focus and it is currently on the back burner. Even though, we have a president who was the first to utilize social media to help him get elected. Huge well known US Websites have been defaced countless times by hackers and I have never heard about so many classified documents being released, whether purposely or by activists like anonymous. These are real cyber security concerns. Not the basic functionality of networks.
 
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