Debunked: Why were Life Star helicopters not deployed to Sandy Hook School?

[deirdre]

What I can prove is that every pediatric GSW per Connecticut EMS protocol requires the patient to be transferred to a PICU capable hospital. Danbury does not have a PICU

if you can prove it then why dont you? please see the Posting Guidelines for MB
https://www.metabunk.org/posting-guidelines.t2064/

source links are required.

(hint: i already did it for you so it wont be that hard)

IF pediatric patients were transferred to Danbury, which they were, then it was another major protocol violation

Then you should probably report that to the proper authorities. Have you?

I'm just pointing out the glaring protocol variations that lend credence to the alternative theories of the incident.

This is off topic. again please see the Posting Guidelines.

As far as who calls (whether it's 911 or EMA) air support

please provide evidence that 911 staff is responsible for making the call about whether helicopters are automaticallys ent, like you stated in your first post. Trying to change the subject doesnt work here.

because Danbury was not a viable hospital choice PER PEDIATRIC GSW PROTOCOL

can you provide us evidence, since you claim to be a paramedic so i'm sure its easier for you to find this evidence, that pediatric gunshot wounds do not fall under Mass Casualty Incident protocols.

Now if online medical control was contacted, which should be in the redacted paramedic reports (which are currently being held from public view) the OLMD could have rerouted the ALS equipped Ambulances to Danbury and denied flight, but then the doctor making that call is violating protocol and opening himself up for a lawsuit....

The paramedic statements are not redacted. ALL witness reports are redacted so your wording is unacceptable.
[edit: sample Paramedic statement (with attached redacted "report") PDF attached below]

That makes no sense. To be rerouted they would have to have been first enroute. Which they weren't.

but then the doctor making that call is violating protocol and opening himself up for a lawsuit....

Sounds criminal to me. You should call the police.

 

[deirdre]

In that scenario, any responsible paramedic would not only request air assets but insist that they intercept due to the extensive trauma training EMT-P receive.

How long have you been a paramedic? What state?

 

[deirdre]

you would have to accept that all responding medics were complacent and did not request additional support for dying children. Something doesn't add up

I think if you are an expert and have proof of this it is IMPERATIVE you contact the police and insist an investigation into it.

 

[deirdre]

4. Severely injured patients less than thirteen (13) years of age should be taken to a Level I or II facility with pediatric resources including a pediatric ICU.

And that knocks out Danbury.... thanks for posting that. I couldnt get it to copy and paste earlier....

Danbury is the designated MCI facility for that area of Connecticut. as already shown in this thread if ICU needs are warranted the patient would be transferred to (at the time it was) Yale.

The MCI protocols have already been posted. If you think CTs protocols for MCI are wrong, you really really need to contact the proper authorities.

 

[Hama Neggs]

I'm going to suppose that the conditions surrounding a mass shooting, which may still be ONGOING, would alter or delay normal EM responses.

 

[Paramedic]

Danbury doesn't report to have a PICU. pediatric patients suffering from GSW should have bypassed that facility and been taken to a facility with a PICU. That was my original observation. The fact that this wasn't done raises questions. Besides the hospital issue, Patients deemed critical upon arrival to area hospitals would have met flight criteria on scene. We are either supposed to believe the medical professionals on scene are guilty of criminal negligence or something else is going on.

 

[deirdre]

Patients deemed critical

ICU is for Critical Care. You are making alot of assumptions that dont jive with the situation specific to the SH Shooting. The only 2 wounded children found alive in the first minutes were taken by ambulance to Danbury Hospital as per established MCI protocol. So again, if this was negligent, then as a medical professional it is incumbent for you to report this negligence to the proper authorities. If you don't know how to do that or who to contact than bring this to the attention of your boss and have him/her do it.

edit add: PS. the time it would have taken for helicopter arrival and then transporting children by mbulance TO the helicopter (active shooter scenario) would have been alot longer than getting them immediately to a hospital to stop bleeding etc. It's scary to think your state doesnt do this.

 

[Paramedic]

I'm not assuming anything. It's already been determined that there were 3 victims (not two: Wikipedia -footnoted)transported to Danbury hospital via ground ambulance. Two of those were children. Those two children died. Had protocol been followed, those two children would have received a higher level of care being transported to children's hospital. Those two children would have also had a higher level of care with a flight nurse AND a paramedic vs. just a paramedic. This is what I am saying. As far as it being incumbent upon me to say something, what I am saying has already been said and it fell on deaf ears. The minute this incident was reported, the very first question was where in the he## was the helicopter transportation. When I saw the first post and the theory of speed alone as to why they weren't dispatched I had to reply. Speed and level of care is what determines air mobilization not just speed alone.

 

[deirdre]

I'm not assuming anything. It's already been determined that there were 3 victims (not two: Wikipedia -footnoted)transported to Danbury hospital via ground ambulance. Two of those were children. Those two children died. Had protocol been followed, those two children would have received a higher level of care being transported to children's hospital. Those two children would have also had a higher level of care with a flight nurse AND a paramedic vs. just a paramedic. This is what I am saying. As far as it being incumbent upon me to say something, what I am saying has already been said and it fell on deaf ears. The minute this incident was reported, the very first question was where in the he## was the helicopter transportation. When I saw the first post and the theory of speed alone as to why they weren't dispatched I had to reply. Speed and level of care is what determines air mobilization not just speed alone.

I dont know what to tell you then. Danbury Hospital was expecting (and prepared for) patients including children to be brought there. When the report on the medical response becomes available we'll know more.

4. Severely injured patients less than thirteen (13) years of age should be taken to a Level I or II facility with pediatric resources including a pediatric ICU.
5. When transport to a Level I or II trauma facility is indicated but the ground transport time to that hospital is judged to be greater than twenty (20) minutes, determination of destination hospital shall be in accordance with local medical direction.
6. If, despite therapy, the trauma patient's carotid or femoral pulses cannot be palpated, airway can not be managed, or external bleeding is uncontrollable, determination of destination hospital shall be in accordance with local medical direction.
7. When in doubt regarding determination of destination hospital, contact medical direction
http://www.ct.gov/dph/cwp/view.asp?a=3127&q=387368

When triaging gunshot wound victims, rapid patient assessment to identify life-threatening injuries is essential. Critical interventions may include airway management, pleural decompression, pressure for external hemorrhage and avoiding on-scene delays before transport.20


.....

The prehospital management of patients with gunshot wounds may vary, but will focus on supportive care and rapid transport

...

Protocols should be clear regarding which hospitals are capable of managing gunshot wound victims.19
http://www.emsworld.com/article/10319706/gunshot-wounds

 

[deirdre]

Those two children died. Had protocol been followed, those two children would have received a higher level of care being transported to children's hospital.

oh and one had passed away before arrival. the helicopter wouldnt have even arrived at that point, let alone transport to the helicopter. But as i said, we'll see what the response report says.

 

[Paramedic]

oh and one had passed away before arrival. the helicopter wouldnt have even arrived at that point, let alone transport to the helicopter. But as i said, we'll see what the response report says.

It's been years since the incident. I doubt we'll ever see those reports. Why? Because there is too much legal liability to release those records. It'll reveal the dr who authorized deviation from protocol, it'll divulge the billing method, it'll allow those more invested to investigate so many angles that no one has even thought of yet. I'm not looking at it as one who says it didn't happen. I question the response, not in the field, but from the top down and what I see is a whole bunch of political wrangling and backside protection protocol. If mistakes were made, then let us all learn from them, not hide from it to protect a job or two...

 

[Ray Von Geezer]

Danbury doesn't report to have a PICU. pediatric patients suffering from GSW should have bypassed that facility and been taken to a facility with a PICU.
That was my original observation. The fact that this wasn't done raises questions. Besides the hospital issue, Patients deemed critical upon arrival to area hospitals would have met flight criteria on scene. We are either supposed to believe the medical professionals on scene are guilty of criminal negligence or something else is going on.

What I can prove is that every pediatric GSW per Connecticut EMS protocol requires the patient to be transferred to a PICU capable hospital.

Then please prove it, because again the protocols say different:

Trauma patients with any of the following injuries shall be taken to a Level I or Level II trauma facility:
(A) gunshot wound to chest, head, neck, abdomen or groin;

[...]

4. Severely injured patients less than thirteen (13) years of age should be taken to a Level I or II facility with pediatric resources including a pediatric ICU.

Note the usages of the aux verbs "shall" (instruction, requirement) and "should" (recommendation, preference). Now that could just be a grammatical mis-step, but we have a good idea it's not because protocols exist allowing medical staff "on the ground" to make a decision on where to best direct patients, and covering what happens if a patient needs to be relocated, as quoted already.

As Deirdre pointed out, the injured were taken to the designed hospital for such an incident.

So again, please show proof that contradicts the protocols. Or, as Deirdre suggests, take it to the relevant authorities.

I'd make another suggestion, as a EMT professional, perhaps it would also be interesting to seek the opinions of others in similar roles, as a previous contributor claiming to speak from authority did here.

That was my original observation.

No, it wasn't. Your original observation was:-

As a paramedic and one who interacts with air assets on a regular basis, I call BS. Danbury hospital is a level II TRAUMA center. GSW's of any degree call for a level I trauma center.

You only brought paediatrics into it after your calling of BS was shown to be, well, incorrect.

Ray Von

 

[Paramedic]

Ok, let me see if I can wrap this up in a nice neat little package so we can all have clarity. The original post was about why helicopters weren't sent to the school after 911 was notified.

Conspiracy theorists point to the lack of utilization of Life Star helicopters at the Sandy Hook school shooting as evidence that something was wrong - either that people were negligent, or in the extreme versions of the theory that the entire thing was faked, and the fakers forgot to include the helicopters.

Anyone with any knowledge of the shooting has most certainly seen the timeline. At 0935 the first call came out over the radio as an active shooter at the school. If previous active shooter scenarios have taught the public services (police, fire and EMS) anything, it's you always prepare for the worst. Send maximum aid, LEO's engage directly and fast in an attempt to change the dichotomy of the situation to a more favorable outcome (less wounded or dead). Fire and EMS stage close until the tactical units say the scene is safe (some EMS units have tactical personnel who train with PD and go in along side the officers). Fire assists with patient and victim extraction, traffic, ground control for aircraft and bystander management. EMS takes patient care and directs triage.

This being said, according to the states own account, 25 minutes transpired between the first call and the request to "send everything". (0935-1000). This is the bear in the room that NOBODY seems to want to discuss. This should already have been done. At 0935 when the call was received, air assets COULD have been dispatched and held at a two mile perimeter for safety and they would have been on scene when needed 25 minutes later. What the original post failed to mention was the mutual air aid that would have been available from the surrounding areas as WELL, but I digress. Another issue that was brought up in the thread was air congestion. Just to clear that up, the FAA would have been notified of their flight plan by the air ambulance company the minute the call came in. They have their own dispatch system. EMA should know the roster size of each school as part of their emergency assessment and planned accordingly. They didn't and they failed the people in their area. This is not rocket science or something good men and women in public service are thrust into not understanding the risks involved. If we don't do our job right, it can cost lives.

When you've been in the business of helping others it's hard to come out and say somebody screwed up because we all have. Nobody is perfect, I'll be the first to admit it, but without hesitation I'll also defend my observations when I know I'm correct. To have some lay person write an eloquent opinion piece about why they think helicopters weren't sent, when they obviously know nothing about how the system should work, then it's time to set the record straight. Automatic launch criteria was not followed. Our area has been under automatic launch criteria since 2002. Weve had mass casualty incidents in our area and had 4 helicopters in a holding pattern over the area while extricating victims. the system works and it's been proven, time and time again. It is extremely hard to believe that somewhere so close to the 9/11 incident, which helped mold our EMA response, had done nothing to improve their own response in that time. Multiple written inquiries, countless Google searches and years have passed since this incident and no one can produce a copy of the protocols from 2012, their helicopter launch criteria or a copy of the pre hospital care records. Until all of that is produced, I will continue to believe 1. This is a disgusting political coverup because somebody screwed up big time. 2. The official report is flawed. Do I claim to know what happened ? No.

As far as was the decision to take the children to Danbury inside of protocol or not is technically unanswerable at this point. Until we have a copy of the paramedics PCR (patient care report) it's all a matter of speculation. If protocol was followed, Local medical direction made the call based on the paramedics observation and that will be noted in the PCR along with vitals, GSW wound location and other pertinent information. The fact that I brought up PEDIATRIC GSW PROTOCOL was because that's the only patients my statements pertained to. A conscious, alert and oriented adult has the right to go wherever they desire..

[off topic material removed]

 

[Ray Von Geezer]

Ok, let me see if I can wrap this up in a nice neat little package so we can all have clarity. The original post was about why helicopters weren't sent to the school after 911 was notified.

Conspiracy theorists point to the lack of utilization of Life Star helicopters at the Sandy Hook school shooting as evidence that something was wrong - either that people were negligent, or in the extreme versions of the theory that the entire thing was faked, and the fakers forgot to include the helicopters.

Anyone with any knowledge of the shooting has most certainly seen the timeline. At 0935 the first call came out over the radio as an active shooter at the school. If previous active shooter scenarios have taught the public services (police, fire and EMS) anything, it's you always prepare for the worst. Send maximum aid, LEO's engage directly and fast in an attempt to change the dichotomy of the situation to a more favorable outcome (less wounded or dead). Fire and EMS stage close until the tactical units say the scene is safe (some EMS units have tactical personnel who train with PD and go in along side the officers). Fire assists with patient and victim extraction, traffic, ground control for aircraft and bystander management. EMS takes patient care and directs triage.

This being said, according to the states own account, 25 minutes transpired between the first call and the request to "send everything". (0935-1000). This is the bear in the room that NOBODY seems to want to discuss. This should already have been done. At 0935 when the call was received, air assets COULD have been dispatched and held at a two mile perimeter for safety and they would have been on scene when needed 25 minutes later. What the original post failed to mention was the mutual air aid that would have been available from the surrounding areas as WELL, but I digress. Another issue that was brought up in the thread was air congestion. Just to clear that up, the FAA would have been notified of their flight plan by the air ambulance company the minute the call came in. They have their own dispatch system. EMA should know the roster size of each school as part of their emergency assessment and planned accordingly. They didn't and they failed the people in their area. This is not rocket science or something good men and women in public service are thrust into not understanding the risks involved. If we don't do our job right, it can cost lives.

When you've been in the business of helping others it's hard to come out and say somebody screwed up because we all have. Nobody is perfect, I'll be the first to admit it, but without hesitation I'll also defend my observations when I know I'm correct. To have some lay person write an eloquent opinion piece about why they think helicopters weren't sent, when they obviously know nothing about how the system should work, then it's time to set the record straight. Automatic launch criteria was not followed. Our area has been under automatic launch criteria since 2002. Weve had mass casualty incidents in our area and had 4 helicopters in a holding pattern over the area while extricating victims. the system works and it's been proven, time and time again. It is extremely hard to believe that somewhere so close to the 9/11 incident, which helped mold our EMA response, had done nothing to improve their own response in that time. Multiple written inquiries, countless Google searches and years have passed since this incident and no one can produce a copy of the protocols from 2012, their helicopter launch criteria or a copy of the pre hospital care records. Until all of that is produced, I will continue to believe 1. This is a disgusting political coverup because somebody screwed up big time. 2. The official report is flawed. Do I claim to know what happened ? No.

As far as was the decision to take the children to Danbury inside of protocol or not is technically unanswerable at this point. Until we have a copy of the paramedics PCR (patient care report) it's all a matter of speculation. If protocol was followed, Local medical direction made the call based on the paramedics observation and that will be noted in the PCR along with vitals, GSW wound location and other pertinent information. The fact that I brought up PEDIATRIC GSW PROTOCOL was because that's the only patients my statements pertained to. A conscious, alert and oriented adult has the right to go wherever they desire.

That's great, it really is. However, with respect, it relies completely on taking your claim of authority at face value, and I'm sure you'll understand my reluctance to do that. The documented protocols do not fit with what you say should have happened, and they can be reasonably understood even by those (like myself) without your doubtless extensive medical background or experience.

Evidence that the protocols are invalid would indeed be useful to the whole argument, and I believe you claimed to have such evidence, so would you please provide it?

The fact that I have taken time to try and explain the system to some who sound more like they relish the argument rather then trying to work together towards a better solution (Ray Von Geezer) shows how much I have grown in the past few years. Most people would have walked off with a snide comment or not said anything. This is not a victory my friend, it just illustrates your lack of communication skills. Respectfully submitted for your reading enjoyment and careful, meticulous criticism.

I'm sorry that you find my communication skills lacking, I'm from Yorkshire, we speak as we find here. So when I see an argument supported only by an appeal to authority, and a clear case of goalpost moving, then I'm genetically programmed to point it out.

Just to be clear, I believe your change of tack about your initial claim is extremely relevant, because it speaks directly to your claim from authority. And, absent any evidence you can supply to the contrary, it still goes against the documented protocol whether you meant paediatric or adult care.

Anyway, that's about as up close and personal as I want to get, I think it's much better to concentrate on the topic, and as you've hopefully gathered the focus for me is seeing evidence, not hearing anecdote. Let's not squabble, if you've even half the experience you claim to have you should be able to point us to the relevant rules and protocols in moments. There's no need for missives - "Just the facts, ma'am."

Ray Von

 

[NoParty]

Ok, let me see if I can wrap this up in a nice neat little package so we can all have clarity. The original post was about why helicopters weren't sent to the school after 911 was notified.

Conspiracy theorists point to the lack of utilization of Life Star helicopters at the Sandy Hook school shooting as evidence that something was wrong - either that people were negligent, or in the extreme versions of the theory that the entire thing was faked, and the fakers forgot to include the helicopters.

Anyone with any knowledge of the shooting has most certainly seen the timeline. At 0935 the first call came out over the radio as an active shooter at the school. If previous active shooter scenarios have taught the public services (police, fire and EMS) anything, it's you always prepare for the worst. Send maximum aid, LEO's engage directly and fast in an attempt to change the dichotomy of the situation to a more favorable outcome (less wounded or dead). Fire and EMS stage close until the tactical units say the scene is safe (some EMS units have tactical personnel who train with PD and go in along side the officers). Fire assists with patient and victim extraction, traffic, ground control for aircraft and bystander management. EMS takes patient care and directs triage.

This being said, according to the states own account, 25 minutes transpired between the first call and the request to "send everything". (0935-1000). This is the bear in the room that NOBODY seems to want to discuss. This should already have been done. At 0935 when the call was received, air assets COULD have been dispatched and held at a two mile perimeter for safety and they would have been on scene when needed 25 minutes later. What the original post failed to mention was the mutual air aid that would have been available from the surrounding areas as WELL, but I digress. Another issue that was brought up in the thread was air congestion. Just to clear that up, the FAA would have been notified of their flight plan by the air ambulance company the minute the call came in. They have their own dispatch system. EMA should know the roster size of each school as part of their emergency assessment and planned accordingly. They didn't and they failed the people in their area. This is not rocket science or something good men and women in public service are thrust into not understanding the risks involved. If we don't do our job right, it can cost lives.

When you've been in the business of helping others it's hard to come out and say somebody screwed up because we all have. Nobody is perfect, I'll be the first to admit it, but without hesitation I'll also defend my observations when I know I'm correct. To have some lay person write an eloquent opinion piece about why they think helicopters weren't sent, when they obviously know nothing about how the system should work, then it's time to set the record straight. Automatic launch criteria was not followed. Our area has been under automatic launch criteria since 2002. Weve had mass casualty incidents in our area and had 4 helicopters in a holding pattern over the area while extricating victims. the system works and it's been proven, time and time again. It is extremely hard to believe that somewhere so close to the 9/11 incident, which helped mold our EMA response, had done nothing to improve their own response in that time. Multiple written inquiries, countless Google searches and years have passed since this incident and no one can produce a copy of the protocols from 2012, their helicopter launch criteria or a copy of the pre hospital care records. Until all of that is produced, I will continue to believe 1. This is a disgusting political coverup because somebody screwed up big time. 2. The official report is flawed. Do I claim to know what happened ? No.

As far as was the decision to take the children to Danbury inside of protocol or not is technically unanswerable at this point. Until we have a copy of the paramedics PCR (patient care report) it's all a matter of speculation. If protocol was followed, Local medical direction made the call based on the paramedics observation and that will be noted in the PCR along with vitals, GSW wound location and other pertinent information. The fact that I brought up PEDIATRIC GSW PROTOCOL was because that's the only patients my statements pertained to. A conscious, alert and oriented adult has the right to go wherever they desire..

[off topic material removed]

Greetings.

I'm not real active on this thread...I honestly always viewed the claim as kind of a desperation move by the CTs...

I question your assertion that CTs may have been merely questioning whether someone did their job
inefficiently or negligently that day ("Conspiracy theorists point to the lack of utilization of Life Star helicopters at the Sandy Hook
school shooting as evidence that something was wrong - either that people were negligent...")...but I think those are actually the
questions asked by most rational, reasonable people who want accountability and to improve reaction to
future such disasters. (the CTs planted their flag on the wild "so fake!" narratives]

It also seems like an odd choice to mock a "lay person" ("To have some lay person write an eloquent opinion piece about why they think helicopters weren't sent, when they obviously know nothing about how the system should work")
before you establish that you, yourself, are not in fact the very "lay person" you mock.
Did I miss something?

 

[deirdre]

What the original post failed to mention was the mutual air aid that would have been available from the surrounding areas as WELL, but I digress

mutual air aid? we only had 2 medical helicopters in Conn. then. that had to cover the whole state. protocols are very specific about not using/sending all your resources to one incident. The other areas still have to be covered.


So your "expertise" took a pretty big hit with that statement there.

when they obviously know nothing about how the system should work, then it's time to set the record straight.

except based on official protocols for connecticut, what you are saying should be, isnt true.

Automatic launch criteria was not followed.

this is total bunk in my opinion. unless you can provide documentation that automatic launch of helicopters is protocol in Connecticut then i think i will just not believe you.

As far as was the decision to take the children to Danbury inside of protocol or not is technically unanswerable at this point

Danbury Hospital is the designated hospital for MCI in this area of Connecticut. The link to that documentation is somewhere in this thread.

file # 00256435 "The paramedic Dan told me to drive to Danbury Hospital"
file#00250882 "
With the assistance ·of Troop A Head Clerk Marie Grove, I then called the following h6spital's Emergency room head nurse and placed them on

emergency standby:


St. Mary's - Waterbury

Waterbury Hospital

New Milford Hospital

Danbury Hospital

Griffin Hospital-Derby
We maintained and continued communications with the hospitals and relayed information developed."


Sending out 10-20 or 50 helicopters everytime there is a shooting would be lovely i agree. But there is no indication this is the protocol in Connecticut, or in your state since you have yet to provide any evidence of your claims.

 

[Paramedic]

Yes, I'm a licensed paramedic. I have handled scores of major single patient traumas and have been heavily involved with numerous Mass Casualty incidents. Not a lay person in Emergency medical care, however there are days in which I wish I was and hadn't seen the things I saw. Forgive me if you thought I was mocking, it was supposed to come across as a blunt reminder that there are those of us who have spent thousands of dollars and years of our lives dedicated to serving others. No offence meant.

 

[deirdre]

Yes, I'm a licensed paramedic. I have handled scores of major single patient traumas and have been heavily involved with numerous Mass Casualty incidents.

Metabunk relies on evidence, not claims of authority that are unconfirmable. Can you please provide documentation that the protocol in your state in 2012 was to automatically launch helicopters at the first report of "gunshots heard".

 

[Paramedic]

mutual air aid? we only had 2 medical helicopters in Conn. then. that had to cover the whole state. protocols are very specific about not using/sending all your resources to one incident. The other areas still have to be covered.

Metabunk relies on evidence, not claims of authority that are unconfirmable. Can you please provide documentation that the protocol in your state in 2012 was to automatically launch helicopters at the first report of "gunshots heard".

Below you will find a document consistent with my claims that there is such a thing as Auto launch criteria. Evidence I can provide. Might want to Google next time wasn't hard to find....




So your "expertise" took a pretty big hit with that statement there. - rude Deirdre very offensive but since your a moderator, no policing your statements huh?

except based on official protocols for connecticut, what you are saying should be, isnt true.



this is total bunk in my opinion. unless you can provide documentation that automatic launch of helicopters is protocol in Connecticut then i think i will just not believe you.


Danbury Hospital is the designated hospital for MCI in this area of Connecticut. The link to that documentation is somewhere in this thread.

file # 00256435 "The paramedic Dan told me to drive to Danbury Hospital"
file#00250882 "
With the assistance ·of Troop A Head Clerk Marie Grove, I then called the following h6spital's Emergency room head nurse and placed them on

emergency standby:


St. Mary's - Waterbury

Waterbury Hospital

New Milford Hospital

Danbury Hospital

Griffin Hospital-Derby
We maintained and continued communications with the hospitals and relayed information developed."


Sending out 10-20 or 50 helicopters everytime there is a shooting would be lovely i agree. But there is no indication this is the protocol in Connecticut, or in your state since you have yet to provide any evidence of your claims.

Here is an example of automatic launch criteria for the Eastern Shores of Virginia

Metabunk relies on evidence, not claims of authority that are unconfirmable. Can you please provide documentation that the protocol in your state in 2012 was to automatically launch helicopters at the first report of "gunshots heard".

 

[Spectrar Ghost]

The only auto launch guideline listed is "Vehicle accident with entrapment (significant injury)"?

 

[Paramedic]

The only auto launch guideline listed is "Vehicle accident with entrapment (significant injury)"?

I was under the impression Deirdre didn't believe there was such an animal as Auto launch criteria. I posted an example from Google. As far as a detailed list as to what criteria is required for auto launch, most municipalities consider that proprietary info for legal concerns. Without court intervention or public disclosure by Connecticut, it will be kept confidential. Since this incident, numerous people have requested that information and it has been denied, repeatedly. That my friend is what has caused all the uproar and again leads back to my ASSUMPTION that it's political parties in damage control covering their lackluster delivery to the citizens who pay their taxes...

 

[deirdre]

I was under the impression Deirdre didn't believe there was such an animal as Auto launch criteria.

i said

Can you please provide documentation that the protocol in your state in 2012 was to automatically launch helicopters at the first report of "gunshots heard".[/QUOTE][/B]

 

[Spectrar Ghost]

I was under the impression Deirdre didn't believe there was such an animal as Auto launch criteria. I posted an example from Google. As far as a detailed list as to what criteria is required for auto launch, most municipalities consider that proprietary info for legal concerns. Without court intervention or public disclosure by Connecticut, it will be kept confidential. Since this incident, numerous people have requested that information and it has been denied, repeatedly. That my friend is what has caused all the uproar and again leads back to my ASSUMPTION that it's political parties in damage control covering their lackluster delivery to the citizens who pay their taxes...

So you don't know what, if any, criteria would have required an autolaunch at the time of Sandy Hook? That directly contradicts your earlier assertion, no?

 

[deirdre]

As far as a detailed list as to what criteria is required for auto launch, most municipalities consider that proprietary info for legal concerns. Without court intervention or public disclosure by Connecticut, it will be kept confidential.

bunk.

 

[Paramedic]

So you don't know what, if any, criteria would have required an autolaunch at the time of Sandy Hook? That directly contradicts your earlier assertion, no?

Not really. Without contradicting information stating the Connecticut did not have auto launch criteria, it is a fair observation that they would in fact fall in line with all other municipalities in the region. Connecticut will not, as I said earlier, release said information, after repeated requests by multiple individuals. This information is vital to answer the question of why were air assets not dispatched, not contacted, and not alerted to an MCI in their region of operation. Rather then attack me, should we not continue to question the controlling authority on the material in front of us?

 

[Spectrar Ghost]

http://www.wremsco.org/WREMSCO_POLICY_DOCs/Regional AMS Guidelines (v2011).pdf

Here's a 2011 doc for activation in the Hudson valley/ west cheater region. Not sure Newtowns in that area. Deirdre?

1. Upon request to place AMS on "STAND-BY", the AIR MEDICAL dispatch center will determine the estimated distance (in miles) from the assigned AMS unit to the incident scene;
   
   
2. If it is determined that the incident scene is greater than 25 miles away from the assigned AMS unit, the AIR MEDICAL dispatch center will automatically dispatch the unit to the scene;
   

NOTE: If the incident is greater than 50 miles from the dispatched AMS unit's location, the helicopter WILL NOT be auto-launched but handled through normal "Stand-by" procedures.

Regional Air Medical Services Utilization Guidelines – (v2011) Page 7

 

[Paramedic]

bunk.

Can you prove that what I just said was in fact bunk? metabunk relies on actual proof, not just laypersons assertions....lol

 

[Mick West]

Can you prove that what I just said was in fact bunk? metabunk relies on actual proof, not just laypersons assertions....lol

That which is asserted without evidence can be refuted without evidence.

Back up your claims.

 

[Paramedic]

http://www.wremsco.org/WREMSCO_POLICY_DOCs/Regional AMS Guidelines (v2011).pdf

Here's a 2011 doc for activation in the Hudson valley/ west cheater region. Not sure Newtowns in that area. Deirdre?

1. Upon request to place AMS on "STAND-BY", the AIR MEDICAL dispatch center will determine the estimated distance (in miles) from the assigned AMS unit to the incident scene;
   
   
2. If it is determined that the incident scene is greater than 25 miles away from the assigned AMS unit, the AIR MEDICAL dispatch center will automatically dispatch the unit to the scene;

NOTE: If the incident is greater than 50 miles from the dispatched AMS unit's location, the helicopter WILL NOT be auto-launched but handled through normal "Stand-by" procedures.

Regional Air Medical Services Utilization Guidelines – (v2011) Page 7

Excellent document. Good find. Penetrating injuries especially on the pediatric breakdown. It's not auto launch but shows that anyone could have requested the air asset. This is definitely in line with what I was saying that they should have been utilised....

 

[Paramedic]

That which is asserted without evidence can be refuted without evidence.

Back up your claims.

Touche! Lol

 

[Spectrar Ghost]

Excellent document. Good find. Penetrating injuries especially on the pediatric breakdown. It's not auto launch but shows that anyone could have requested the air asset. This is definitely in line with what I was saying that they should have been utilised....

No, you said it was required.

 

[deirdre]

Not sure Newtowns in that area

Hudson valley is New York. Not sure how interstate stuff works.

 

[Mick West]

Hudson valley is New York. Not sure how interstate stuff works.

They do list Hardford, but it seems to policy for incidents in the Hudson Valley.

 

[Paramedic]

They do list Hardford, but it seems to policy for incidents in the Hudson Valley.
View attachment 20943

I can shed light on interstate mutual aid agreements. They vary by region but if the area where the incident takes place is in the operating radius of a competing agency, then that agency generally has a mutual aid agreement signed when they begin service. That's what I was asserting earlier. In order to prove my assertions accurate however, it would take months of arduous research at an unbelievable cost to the researching body. I'd be happy to do it if someone would pony up the cash.

 

[deirdre]

They do list Hardford, but it seems to policy for incidents in the Hudson Valley.

i did look it up once long ago and i think (im not great with map distances) that one of the NY helicopters is actually closer as the crow flies than Hartford, to Newtown. If that means anything.

 

[deirdre]

That's what I was asserting earlier.

actually it sounds like you are just changing your story to fit whatever information we provide you. How come when the laymen look things up they find the information, but you need months of arduous research and money to provide documentation of your assertions?

 

[Paramedic]

No, you said it was required.

Required can be looked at several ways. Yes a higher level of care is required for the patient as fast as possible in a traumatic injury. That is medically necessary to complete treatment for the patients optimum result. Is that helicopter required for that to be accomplished? Since the patients should be delivered to a facility with a PICU by state protocol, then the only reasonable assertion would be to utilise air transport, as the closest PICU was 48 miles away. Add to that the elevated skill sets the flight nurse and paramedic on board the rotary wing aircraft maintained, then by all means, it is required because them the paramedic on the ground has in fact done his job and delivered the patient to a higher level of car (air crew). The fact that they were not dispatched took this option of a scene transfer away but it did not take away an in route to hartford intercept, which can easily be coordinated through the 911 system. 12 minutes to Danbury vs. 25 to Hartford's children's hospital is the question. The other question is the 25 minutes it took for the ground services to even gain access to the victims. Add that to the 5-7 minutes it took to load the patient and 12 to transport to Danbury and then the 2-3 to get inside and you've burnt the golden hour to the ground. Adding 13 minutes for a more definitive"best chance" solution is ultimately the better choice.

 

[deirdre]

The fact that they were not dispatched took this option of a scene transfer away but it did not take away an in route to hartford intercept

so now you want the ambulance to head to hartford and try to "meet up" somewhere with the helicopter?! no.

 

[Paramedic]

actually it sounds like you are just changing your story to fit whatever information we provide you. How come when the laymen look things up they find the information, but you need months of arduous research and money to provide documentation of your assertions?

From the beginning I called BS and stated that the patient required a level one trauma center. Everyone rushed into the protocol argument, so I let you go that way. However, the patient SHOULD have been delivered to l a PICU, and the closest PICU was hartford children's, a level 1 pediatric trauma center. The decision made in the field contradicted the protocol and the only one who can legally make that decision is online medical control, which brings us back to the point about the missing PCR's. Good job for consolidating that for everyone. That last document showed the mutual aid in the region, but to prove that is where the research would be.

 

[deirdre]

as the closest PICU was 48 miles away

oh and the closest PICU to newtown is Yale. but not if you are driving around off road trying to meet a helicopter coming from Hartford i guess.