Debunked: Why were Life Star helicopters not deployed to Sandy Hook School?

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RaceBanyon

New Member
Sad- You are all very close minded- The anomalies for this event are staggering. The fact that none of you question what really happened is unreal. I will not post anymore since I use my brain to actually question events and not believe what I am fed. Open your eyes

... unless it comes from spooky YouTube videos, right?

St. Mary's, Waterbury, New Milford, Danbury, and Griffin all had emergency room personnel on standby.

A large number of ambulances responded and were not needed. You can see them sitting in the fire house parking lot area in the Channel 12 footage. I believe there are 7-8 of them that responded and were not needed.
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
Sad- You are all very close minded- The anomalies for this event are staggering. The fact that none of you question what really happened is unreal. I will not post anymore since I use my brain to actually question events and not believe what I am fed. Open your eyes
This was to be expected. You claim the helos are always called, provide a supporting document only after being asked multiple times and your document doesn't state what you claim.
 

Hevach

Senior Member.
Even if it did say what he claimed, said helicopters didn't exist at the time and are not equipped with Flux Capacitors.
 

MikeG

Senior Member.
Sad- You are all very close minded- The anomalies for this event are staggering. The fact that none of you question what really happened is unreal. I will not post anymore since I use my brain to actually question events and not believe what I am fed. Open your eyes

Questioning is one thing. Explaining is another.

I am curious to see what you think about Deidre's information in Post #77.

How do they compare to your explanations?

Open our eyes.
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
I have to say one thing, this is the absolute most civil forum I have EVER visited, and that includes religious forums. There is nothing but patient answering and insistence on backing up claims. Politeness does not equate to rolling over and conceding....just saying

All one has to do it go "ask questions" in a Sandy Hook hoax forum to see UNcivil. Ask Mr. Pozner how civil he thinks the truthers he's had interaction with are.
 

MickeyS

Member
All one has to do it go "ask questions" in a Sandy Hook hoax forum to see UNcivil. Ask Mr. Pozner how civil he thinks the truthers he's had interaction with are.

Ohmyword you've got that right. When I first found out about these theories and found out from my mother the grief it was causing specific family members she knows, I was horrified. In researching the articles posted, the first one I happened along was Fellowship Of The Mind and I was dumb enough to comment....holy moly...I felt like a guppy in a piranha pond, it was AWFUL. Like the terrible the things they called me...he even looked up my IP address and told other members it was an anonymous address, which confirmed I was a "shill", whatever the hell that is, but that happens when you're posting from your phone. Anyway, it was bizarre...and, YES...the absolute definition of "UN-civil".

At least this site actually listens to the claims being made, and the questions being asked. They might not be able to do anything with unverified information, as debunking is about evidence and not opinion, but at least they listen...and no name calling...that's quite refreshing, because that seems to be the standard in ALL these sites. But when it seems the "fishing" expeditions by theorists are seeming, well...fishy...it's hard to continue along with the charade...but even then, I find they are extremely professional about it.
 

LATS118RN

New Member
Metabunk is about examing specific claims of evidence. Please read the posting guidelines.
You did not provide any that related directly to Connecticut or NIMS protocol, after being asked, so your posts were moved.

https://www.metabunk.org/posting-guidelines.t2064/

https://www.metabunk.org/metabunks-no-click-policy.t5158/

I am posting while working. That said, CT is pretty vague in its compliance with NIMS. However, the fact that LifeStar does in fact mirror the standards for Air Medical Response and because they are part of the EMS System in CT, we know that CT does follow the rest of the country in terms of EMS response.

I am not looking to prove this was a hoax or some other ridiculous claim. But, the answer that Danbury was accessible by ground, is not the debunk. The debunk is in the fact that it was never ordered. And all that needs to be shown, is who decided it wasn't needed and why.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
And all that needs to be shown, is who decided it wasn't needed and why.
Neither Cario, the first highest ranking EMS on scene, nor Cassavechia (tactical paramedic and Director of Danbury EMS, who took over as soon as he was on scene) felt it was needed. Or they would have called for it.

If you have further questions for either of them you should contact them directly and ask.

edit: out accidental double negative.
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
I am posting while working. That said, CT is pretty vague in its compliance with NIMS. However, the fact that LifeStar does in fact mirror the standards for Air Medical Response and because they are part of the EMS System in CT, we know that CT does follow the rest of the country in terms of EMS response.

I am not looking to prove this was a hoax or some other ridiculous claim. But, the answer that Danbury was accessible by ground, is not the debunk. The debunk is in the fact that it was never ordered. And all that needs to be shown, is who decided it wasn't needed and why.

I live 2 miles from a hospital. Why would they send a helicopter?
 

NoParty

Senior Member.
The debunk is in the fact that it was never ordered. And all that needs to be shown, is who decided it wasn't needed and why.
I'm new to this, but are you asserting that the default protocol for any homicide is that Life Star
helicopters are to be dispatched, unless someone makes a specific order to check out of it?
Even if there's no sign of life? Even if ground transport to a nearby hospital is obviously a better choice?
 

Ray Von Geezer

Senior Member.
I am posting while working. That said, CT is pretty vague in its compliance with NIMS. However, the fact that LifeStar does in fact mirror the standards for Air Medical Response and because they are part of the EMS System in CT, we know that CT does follow the rest of the country in terms of EMS response.

I am not looking to prove this was a hoax or some other ridiculous claim. But, the answer that Danbury was accessible by ground, is not the debunk. The debunk is in the fact that it was never ordered. And all that needs to be shown, is who decided it wasn't needed and why.

Everything hinges on your claim that NIMS states air medical should be contacted without any consideration of whether or not it is appropriate. The existence of a guideline document on whether to use air or ground services indicates it's a decision to be made "on the ground", and those guidelines include criteria which would make it inappropriate in this situation. Without that evidence that air medical should have been deployed regardless, any questions as to why it wasn't are simply second-guessing.

Ray Von
 
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LATS118RN

New Member
I live 2 miles from a hospital. Why would they send a helicopter?

Why on earth would you insert your personal geographical proximity to a hospital? That has no bearing at all on debunking the situation at Sandy Hook. But, playing along with your statement:

1. The fact that you live 2 miles from a hospital is great if it's a Level I Trauma Center and that was the level of care you needed.
2. If it happens to be a community hospital lacking the specific credentials / staffing / equipment needed, then guess what, you would in fact be transported to a higher level of care. It happens every day.

With Sandy Hook, the situation involved pediatric trauma. That is what it was. No one knew the extent of injuries, the number of injuries, but what was known at the time of the initial call, was that there was an active shooter scenario in a school, while in session, with kids under 12 years of age. Pediatric Trauma, per the State of CT, should be treated at a Level I Pediatric Trauma Center. Not a level II, not a local community Hospital. Could cuts and bruises be treated a local ER? Sure. Would a child with 3 gunshot wounds to the chest and abdomen do well in a community ER. No.

[.....] there are two things a responding EMS / EMR person uses when doing an initial scene size up:

1. What are the known injuries, and,
2. What are the potential injuries based on the type of call

Most of the decision making is aided by Protocols which is why they exist. The other factor that goes into that decision, is experience and common sense.

Protocol dictates that upon an MCI being declared, Air Assets at least have contact established.
Common Sense dictates that an active shooter, in a school, while in session, with 500+ kids in it, has the potential for multiple pediatric trauma patients. This could easily overwhelm even the best EMS System (which includes local hospitals, as hospitals are part of the EMS System).
 
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JRBids

Senior Member.
Why on earth would you insert your personal geographical proximity to a hospital? That has no bearing at all on debunking the situation at Sandy Hook. But, playing along with your statement:.

Nothing. I'm stating that there are situations where it may not be appropriate. As Ray said earlier:

Everything hinges on your claim that NIMS states air medical should be contacted without any consideration of whether or not it is appropriate.
Content from External Source
As he said, you're second guessing. Provide proof they should have been.
 

LATS118RN

New Member
Why does that need to be shown?

Because the initial "debunk" to "Why were LifeStar Helicopters not Deployed to Sandy Hook" isn't the answer given on the first page. There are a bunch of maps and explanations (which, unless there EMS professionals that worked that scene and provided that answer, it is entirely speculation) none of which actually are factual other than the distance of Danbury Hospital to Sandy Hook. [mod removal: undocumented assertions]

If the purpose of this site, and this thread, is to actually debunk items with factual information, then the answer provided on page 1 is inaccurate, and therefore, not debunked. To my knowledge, an item is either debunked with fact, or it isn't.

The actual debunk rests with the fact that we know LifeStar was never dispatched. We know this for two reasons:

1. LifeStar never showed up at Sandy Hook Elementary School, and,
2. LifeStar at some point stated they were never called.

So the actual answer / "debunking" of this matter isn't the fact that Danbury was in close proximity because by all accounts, this would just be completely an inaccurate answer. What is an appropriate debunk is:

No Trauma Helicopters deployed to Sandy Hook Elementary School on 12/14/12 because ______________, the Incident Commander / Senior Medical Control Personnel on-scene (or en-route to scene) determined LifeStar was not required for a Mass Casualty Incident at an Elementary School due to the following reason:________________________________.

(The unknowns are the blanks that need to be filled in)

For a proper debunk to this issue that seems to perpetuate itself over and over, the two blanks simply need completion. And then it is a simple debunk. There is no need to justify maps, distance, speed, etc. The debunk is simply due to someone in the CT EMS System that was responsible for the lives of 500+ kids on the morning of 12/14/12 made an informed decision to NOT contact LifeStar. That's it. Any other answer, is speculation.
 
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LATS118RN

New Member
Nothing. I'm stating that there are situations where it may not be appropriate. As Ray said earlier:

Everything hinges on your claim that NIMS states air medical should be contacted without any consideration of whether or not it is appropriate.
Content from External Source
As he said, you're second guessing. Provide proof they should have been.

Let's make this even more simple. If you look at the initial graphic on page one of this thread, the initial debunk contains an image of a newspaper article, referencing another shooting in CT. In that article clip, there are two things that are critical; first, the article states that LifeStar was standing by, and second, that an Official stated to the new agency that although LifeStar was standing by, Officials determined ground transport would be a better option.

Contrast that (since it was being used as part of the debunk claim here) with Sandy Hook. With Sandy Hook, LifeStar was not on Stand-by [....removed undocumented assertions] as they were never called, and secondly, no Official has given any statement that they determined ground-based EMS only was going to be the preferred mode for treatment and transport (I say treatment, as Air Trauma personnel are at times part of an EMS response even if there is no intention for them to transport by air, as they have higher trained personnel on board and can be adjunctive to ground EMS personnel).
 
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deirdre

Senior Member.
Protocol dictates that upon an MCI being declared, Air Assets at least have contact established
you are seriously going to have to start providing some backup documentation for all these assertions you keep making.

This could easily overwhelm even the best EMS System (which includes local hospitals, as hospitals are part of the EMS System).
Which is why they had multiple hospitals on standby. None of which was Yale. which tells me everything you are posting is wrong.

From now on please attach back up documentation to your assertions or they will be removed. I realize you are new here but it's year 3 and we've had enough undocumented gish gallop on this thread.

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deirdre

Senior Member.
With Sandy Hook, LifeStar was not on Stand-by

according to Halbig who claims to have called they were on stand=by.

no Official has given any statement that they determined ground-based EMS only was going to be the preferred mode for treatment and transport
Obviously they determined that since that is what was done.

The State Police Response Review has not been released yet. Perhaps you can wait a bit and more of your questions will be answered officially. Or like i said, you can contact dispatch or Cassevechia or Cario and ask them.
 

LATS118RN

New Member
you are seriously going to have to start providing some backup documentation for all these assertions you keep making.


Which is why they had multiple hospitals on standby. None of which was Yale. which tells me everything you are posting is wrong.

From now on please attach back up documentation to your assertions or they will be removed. I realize you are new here but it's year 3 and we've had enough undocumented gish gallop on this thread.

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Deirdre, with respect, I am actually attempting to take this down to it's most fundamental level. I see that a lot of thought went into the debunk on page one, but it needs not be even that complex. I have my own opinion (yes, based on experience but in a different State) but my opinion doesn't matter. What does matter, and all that is needed to close this thread, this topic, forever, (which would make Metabunk the definitive source that ends this silly conspiracy that like you stated is going on over 3 years) is what I posted up above. We don't need to attach policy after policy.

The bottom line is, someone made an informed decision to specifically not call LifeStar. That's really all there is to ending this topic permanently. Who made the decision (even if it is a vague answer such as "An EMS provider with XYZ First Aid") and the reason (could be as non-specific as the snippet on page 1 of this thread... "determined that transport by Ambulance would be most appropriate.")

I'm not trying to make an argument where one doesn't exist. Someone made the decision to bypass LifeStar, but to this date, I have not found a single source, or reason, made by an Official on scene on this particular topic.
 

LATS118RN

New Member
according to Halbig who claims to have called they were on stand=by.


Obviously they determined that since that is what was done.

The State Police Response Review has not been released yet. Perhaps you can wait a bit and more of your questions will be answered officially. Or like i said, you can contact dispatch or Cassevechia or Cario and ask them.

I was typing my last response and didn't see this one. I will withhold further posts until I can establish either an answer from the above mentioned Review, or contact with one of the Personnel listed above. Thank you.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
I'm not trying to make an argument where one doesn't exist. Someone made the decision to bypass LifeStar, but to this date, I have not found a single source, or reason, made by an Official on scene on this particular topic
i realize you are not trying to make an argument. I feel i answered your questions coupled with the OP data.

But just note: The title of the thread is as it is because that is the click-bait question Wolfgang Halbig was tossing around the internet. The thread was named that so people could easily find the debunk. The actual CLAIM is the first paragraph...
Conspiracy theorists point to the lack of utilization of Life Star helicopters at the Sandy Hook school shooting as evidence that something was wrong - either that people were negligent, or in the extreme versions of the theory that the entire thing was faked, and the fakers forgot to include the helicopters
Content from External Source
I do understand your confusion with the "why?" title. But here at Metabunk, which you wouldnt know as a new member, if we are only answering a "why" type question the thread title would say "Explained".

Sorry for any confusion we caused you.
 

NoParty

Senior Member.
...I am actually attempting to take this down to it's most fundamental level...The bottom line is, someone made an informed decision to specifically not call LifeStar.
But is that really the fundamental level?
I'm just having trouble accepting your assertions as being as self-evident as you imply they are.

Tonight I drove past Sharp Grossmont Hospital in La Mesa, California.
I guess I could have driven in...but nothing about my situation suggested that a hospital visit was appropriate.

In fact, I would only have wrongly diverted hospital staff attention away from patients who actually needed urgent treatment (just as taking helicopters designed for public safety out of circulation when not appropriate would be wrong).

Does it make sense to say I "...made an informed decision to specifically not" go into the hospital?
No. It was never on my radar. It never seemed appropriate, so I never seriously considered it,
never mind making some kind of dramatic negative decision.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
I was typing my last response and didn't see this one. I will withhold further posts until I can establish either an answer from the above mentioned Review, or contact with one of the Personnel listed above. Thank you.
i did decide to poke around a bit more. Found a Connecticut MCI thing from 2009. There is actually specific mention of how transportation works: protocols, but its a bit indepth for me to go into. PDF attached below. Not sure how the fact that Conn only has 2 Lifestars for the entire state (and many many rural areas...unlike Newtown) plays into their decision making. But this could help? i believe you decide what to ask and who to ask. (also can use the searchable Police report pinned in main SH forum... to cross reference terms.)

North Central
CMED will become the sole agency with the exception of pre-planned Special Operations to
request additional units and responses. During Special Operations, it is the responsibility of the
EMS Commander to advise CMED of the number of transport units on scene. At the time of the
request North Central CMED should be provided with a turnover of agencies requested and
responding, their unit numbers, clinical levels and ETA.
North Central CMED as part of the Statewide MEDNET System is responsible for mobilizing EMS
assets in its service area for response to major incidents through out the State of Connecticut.
Pending completion of the Department of Public Health EMS Mobilization Plan, North Central
CMED and its client EMS Provider Services will be guided by the following principles when
requested to provide mutual aid in other areas of the State (outside of Region 3).

1. Only 25% of the on duty ambulance/paramedic units available in the North Central CMED
Service area at the time of the request will be allocated to an out of region incident.
2. Upon a state DPH request for North Central CMED service area EMS assets, all EMS
provider services will be requested to staff all of their available response units, to ensure
coverage in Region 3.
3. At no time will on duty ambulance/paramedic units fall below 75% due to responses
requested by the State, other regions or other CMED’s.
4. EMS providers will refrain from deploying assets from their service areas to other areas
of the State except as may be directed by North Central CMED.

Hospital Distribution
As a general rule, in the case of an emergency, EMS transports patients to the closest
geographic hospital. Sometimes, EMS and hospital conditions makes it more appropriate to take
the patient to a hospital that is not the closest.
This point-of-entry plan addresses circumstances when, because of the health of the system, the
system would benefit from distributing patients to a more distant hospital(s) emergency
department. North Central CMED will monitor the overall status of the EMS and hospital
systems. In the event of an MCI or other high volume incident or incidents, North Central CMED
Content from External Source




Also this is not Conn specific, but looks like you can look up Connecticut specific if you are so inclined. But doesnt look like Level one trauma would definitively be a preferred destination in this case.
As mentioned above, Trauma categories vary from state to state. Outlined below are common criteria for Trauma Centers verified by the ACS and also designated by states and municipalities. Facilities are designated/verified as Adult and/or Pediatric Trauma Centers. It is not uncommon for facilities to have different designations for each group (ie. a Trauma Center may be a Level I Adult facility and also a Level II Pediatric Facility).

Level I
Level I Trauma Center is a comprehensive regional resource that is a tertiary care facility central to the trauma system. A Level I Trauma Center is capable of providing total care for every aspect of injury – from prevention through rehabilitation.

Elements of Level I Trauma Centers Include:
24-hour in-house coverage by general surgeons, and prompt availability of care in specialties such as orthopedic surgery, neurosurgery, anesthesiology, emergency medicine, radiology, internal medicine, plastic surgery, oral and maxillofacial, pediatric and critical care.
Referral resource for communities in nearby regions.
Provides leadership in prevention, public education to surrounding communities.
Provides continuing education of the trauma team members.
Incorporates a comprehensive quality assessment program.
Operates an organized teaching and research effort to help direct new innovations in trauma care.
Program for substance abuse screening and patient intervention.
Meets minimum requirement for annual volume of severely injured patients.

Level II
A Level II Trauma Center is able to initiate definitive care for all injured patients.

Elements of Level II Trauma Centers Include:
24-hour immediate coverage by general surgeons, as well as coverage by the specialties of orthopedic surgery, neurosurgery, anesthesiology, emergency medicine, radiology and critical care.
Tertiary care needs such as cardiac surgery, hemodialysis and microvascular surgery may be referred to a Level I Trauma Center.
Provides trauma prevention and to continuing education programs for staff.
Incorporates a comprehensive quality assessment program.
http://www.amtrauma.org/?page=traumalevels
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add: forgot a link

Shortly after 10 a.m. Friday, doctors in the emergency room at Danbury Hospital received word of a school shooting in nearby Newtown.

Reports were scattered. No one knew at first whether it was a high school or an elementary school. No one knew how many patients to expect. But within 10 minutes, 80 doctors, nurses and other staff members were ready for anything, prepping trauma teams, four emergency rooms and six operating rooms. One of those on watch: The chairman of the pediatric department.

Just 12 miles down the road from Sandy Hook Elementary School, and charged by the state with handling mass casualty events, the doctors at Danbury knew that if many were hurt, the victims would be coming through their emergency room doors.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/14/danbury-hospital-school-shooting_n_2304756.html
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MikeG

Senior Member.
With Sandy Hook, the situation involved pediatric trauma. That is what it was. No one knew the extent of injuries, the number of injuries, but what was known at the time of the initial call, was that there was an active shooter scenario in a school, while in session, with kids under 12 years of age. Pediatric Trauma, per the State of CT, should be treated at a Level I Pediatric Trauma Center. Not a level II, not a local community Hospital. Could cuts and bruises be treated a local ER? Sure. Would a child with 3 gunshot wounds to the chest and abdomen do well in a community ER. No.

[.....] there are two things a responding EMS / EMR person uses when doing an initial scene size up:

1. What are the known injuries, and,
2. What are the potential injuries based on the type of call

Most of the decision making is aided by Protocols which is why they exist. The other factor that goes into that decision, is experience and common sense.

I think that you already have reduced the issue to basics and provided documentation that offers an answer to your question.

A. There was an active shooter scenario at Sandy Hook.

B. The guidelines that you cited earlier (and were moved to another thread) point out that the safety of the helicopter and its crew come first. [my emphasis]

DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE NEED TO FLY
AND THE SAFETY OF FLIGHT


The aviation and medical components of helicopter transport are naturally intertwined, yet the decision to use HEMS for medical reasons must be kept separate from the aviation decision about whether or not a patient transport can be completed safely. Air medical operators must use a safety management system (SMS) that shields the assessment of flight risk from knowledge of patient type or acuity. The Federal Avi- ation Administration defines an SMS as the formal, top-down business approach to managing safety risk, which includes the necessary organizational struc- tures, accountabilities, policies, and procedures.41 An SMS goes beyond the technical and human factors of safety and incorporates the safety culture of an organization. An effective SMS shields pilots and crew members from inappropriate pressure to fly.
Content from External Source
Source:
http://naemsp.org/Documents/Positio...Position Statement with Resource Document.pdf

I can understand your concern for the children, but, as you said, experience and common sense took effect that day.

I am not really sure what else you need to know.
 

Ray Von Geezer

Senior Member.
With Sandy Hook, the situation involved pediatric trauma. That is what it was. No one knew the extent of injuries, the number of injuries, but what was known at the time of the initial call, was that there was an active shooter scenario in a school, while in session, with kids under 12 years of age. Pediatric Trauma, per the State of CT, should be treated at a Level I Pediatric Trauma Center. Not a level II, not a local community Hospital. Could cuts and bruises be treated a local ER? Sure. Would a child with 3 gunshot wounds to the chest and abdomen do well in a community ER. No.
That seems a little odd, what's the point of a Level II Paediatric Trauma Centre if that's the case?

When you say "per the State of CT", would that be according to the public health codes or can you provide a more authoritative source? Excerpt from Connecticut Statewide Trauma System, Connecticut Public Health Code (abridged and emphasis added):-

19a-177-5. Field triage protocols

(a) The following field triage protocol shall provide criteria to categorize trauma patients and determine destination hospitals with resources appropriate to meet the patient s needs.

[....]

2. Assess the anatomy of the injury. Trauma patients with any of the following injuries shall be taken to a Level I or Level II trauma facility:
(A) gunshot wound to chest, head, neck, abdomen or groin;
(B) third degree burns covering more than fifteen (15) per cent of the body, or third degree burns of face, or airway involvement;
(C) evidence of spinal cord injury;
(D) amputation, other than digits; or
(E) two (2) or more obvious proximal long bone fractures.

[....]

4. Severely injured patients less than thirteen (13) years of age should be taken to a Level I or II facility with pediatric resources including a pediatric ICU.
Content from External Source
Ray Von
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
When you say "per the State of CT", would that be according to the public health codes or can you provide a more authoritative source? Excerpt from Connecticut Statewide Trauma System, Connecticut Public Health Code (abridged and emphasis added):-
nice find. but i think you left out the most important part. :)
bold mine

5. When transport to a Level I or II trauma facility is indicated but the ground transport time to that hospital is judged to be greater than twenty (20) minutes, determination of destination hospital shall be in accordance with local medical direction.
6. If, despite therapy, the trauma patient's carotid or femoral pulses can not be palpated, airway can not be managed, or external bleeding is uncontrollable, determination of destination hospital shall be in accordance with local medical direction.
7. When in doubt regarding determination of destination hospital, contact medical direction.
(b) All EMS providers transporting trauma patients to hospitals shall provide receiving hospitals with a completed OEMS approved patient care form prior to departing from the hospital. A patient care form shall be completed for each trauma patient at the scene who is not transported and shall be forwarded to the OEMS.

(c) Beginning October 1, 1995, all hospitals and EMS providers shall follow the field triage protocols.

(Effective March 22, 1995.)

19a-177-6. Interhospital transfers

(a) If a trauma patient who meets the Field Triage Protocol criteria for delivery to a Level I or Level II trauma facility is taken to a facility not so designated, that patient shall be transferred to a Level I or Level II trauma facility or the reason that the trauma patient is admitted, discharged or transferred to a different facility shall be documented in the patient's hospital record.

(b) For all interhospital transfers the sending hospital shall

(1) document patient assessment and efforts to stabilize

Content from External Source

and i realized in my above post, "Special Operations" sounds scary but its just a specialized ambulance service
http://echohoseambulance.org/about.html
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MikeC

Closed Account
Because the initial "debunk" to "Why were LifeStar Helicopters not Deployed to Sandy Hook" isn't the answer given on the first page. ......

A "why?" question does not get debunked - it gets explained - which I think has happened here..

Debunking can only be done on matters which are supposedly factual.

For example if it was claimed Lifestar were not on standby and they actually were, then you could debunk the claim by showing that they weer on standby (or vice versa)
 

Ray Von Geezer

Senior Member.
nice find. but i think you left out the most important part. :)
bold mine
Aye, I clipped it as I was trying to keep the focus narrow in the hope that LATS118RN would respond to the specific evidence about paediatric trauma. He's racking up quite a collection of arguments from authority/assertions without evidence, it'd be good if he could address at least one of them directly in between all his other posts.

You're quite right though, that point in the code is a useful piece of evidence when it comes to the whole question of what the EMS should or shouldn't have done.

Ray Von
 
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deirdre

Senior Member.
Aye, I clipped it as I was trying to keep the focus narrow in the hope that LATS118RN would respond to the specific evidence about paediatric trauma. He's racking up quite a collection of arguments from authority/assertions without evidence, it'd be good if he could address at least one of them directly in between all his other posts.
that's why it's important for all people, including us, to provide documentation to back up assertions- because we can all 'assume' things that are 'common sense' to us, must be true.

i added more of your link (great link btw!) mostly because i don't believe Danbury has a SEPERATE pediatric ICU. They do for newborns but i think that is different.

This Lifestar theory is one of those ones that takes alot to explain (documents to attach) and even i agree it would seem to "make sense" they would want to bring children to "the best" hospital.even i didnt realize until i looked it up that Level 1 vs level 2 doesnt necessarily relate specifically to 'better' trauma care at all.
What people often fail to add into the equation is
  • Danbury is an excellant, capable highly rated, very highly and densely staffed Hospital
  • Yale Children's hospital (from police report) was never put on the standby list. Level 1 trauma facilities are usually deemed "tertiary"
  • The timeline of events
  • Conn only has 2 helicopters (so most patients would need to go by ground anyway)
  • The large number of ground ambulances available in the area (and when police put up the road block it was beyond where the ambulances were staging anyway..no ambulances 'got stuck' trying to get to the firehouse staging area.
  • The large number of medical personnel at the scene (and in the school attending to victims within 6 minutes of entry)
  • The quick highway access and closeness to Danbury Hospital
  • Helicopters cant land in active shooter areas (and well before the area was deemed safe, very early on in the response, it was determined there were no more injured
  • Police active shooter protocols to ensure the safety of everyone at the location in harm's way.
  • etc

But ultimately if there were 26 severely wounded victims.. that needed transport, there would have been delays in getting rapid triage throughout, which i imagine would be the case in any location with active shooters and a large number of wounded.
 

Paramedic

Member
Conspiracy theorists point to the lack of utilization of Life Star helicopters at the Sandy Hook school shooting as evidence that something was wrong - either that people were negligent, or in the extreme versions of the theory that the entire thing was faked, and the fakers forgot to include the helicopters.

http://www.harthosp.org/LifeStar/default.aspx
A "Life Star" helicopter is a critical care helicopter service that responds to and provides air transport for a variety of patients who require care at a tertiary care facility.
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Why was it not used at Sandy Hook? Basically because it was much more sensible to transport people in an ambulance. There were actually not very many injured. The injured people were transported by ambulance to Danbury Hospital. Just 11.4 miles away by road, straight down a freeway, accessible in less than 14 minutes.



Ambulances were already there. Using an ambulance minimizes the movement of the patient. Calling for a helicopter would take more time. The ambulance was quicker and safer

But what's the fastest a helicopter could have got there? In an ideal situation a Life Star helicopter can take off within a minute of the call, and travels at 155mph. The straight line distance from the Danbury helicopter pad to the Sandy Hook playing field is 8.7 miles. Helicopters do not magically get to top speed. It takes about a minute each end for takeoff and acceleration (and the reverse landing). So that's

  • 1 Minute until takeoff
  • 1 min takeoff and acceleration
  • 3 min 22 sec travel
  • 1 min landing (optimistically)
  • 2 minutes Loading (takes more time as patient needs moving across the field, and loading is harder than into an ambulance).
  • 1 min take off and acc
  • 3 min 22 seconds travel
  • 1 min landing
  • 1 minute unloading to the door (landing pad is some distance from the hospital.
Total = 14 minute 22 seconds. In an absolutely ideal case. Far better to just use an ambulance and get there in the same time or less. An ambulance has the added benefit of a much wider range of medical equipment being available.

Here's a video of a Life Star helicopter landing in an actual emergency at a school. It takes over a minute from arriving to actually settling on the ground.


When would you use a helicopter? When the distance is far enough that the speed of the helicopter would make a significant difference. This is not the case here.

And this assumes a best case scenario, where a helicopter was already in Danbury, and ready to go. The Life Star helicopters are actually based in Hartford, 38 miles away. Meaning they would take a minimum of 15 minutes to arrive, and probably more like 20.


And in a similar previous shooting, the helicopters were not used, even though they were closer and standing by, and even though there were people who were critically injured, and even though there was a clear landing site right outside the doors of the Hartford Distributors, it was simply quicker to use the ambulance. Just like at Sandy Hook.

http://www.journalinquirer.com/page...cle_8b69d3e2-ddbd-54b8-a8fc-629330dfbe87.html

MANCHESTER — An employee who had been asked to resign opened fire early today at Hartford Distributors Inc., killing nine people including himself, according to Manchester police.

Two others were shot but are expected to survive, Lt. Christopher A. Davis said.
...
Victims were taken to Hartford Hospital by ambulance. Life Star helicopter was standing by, but officials decided ambulances would be faster.

One person died at Hartford Hospital, according to Dr. Lenworth Jacobs. He said the person had been resuscitated but later died.

Another person, listed in critical condition, was being operated on this morning. A third person, who was in fair condition, “will do well,” Jacobs said. The unidentified victim was conscious and talking.

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I'm a paramedic who questions the response to sandy hook with regards to the air assets. Any 911 service in the United States has what they call "automatic launch" criteria


As a paramedic and one who interacts with air assets on a regular basis, I call BS. Danbury hospital is a level II TRAUMA center. GSW's of any degree call for a level I trauma center. All 911 systems have certain "automatic launch" criteria and GSW's are on them all for sure. Now was this just an oversight by 911? Could be, but very doubtful. Your whole justification for time of transfer is thrown out the window, because air transport is considered a higher level of care then ground transport due to the additional training and skills these air assets are allowed to perform. Speed is not always the deciding factor prior to transport.
 
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deirdre

Senior Member.
As a paramedic and one who interacts with air assets on a regular basis, I call BS. Danbury hospital is a level II TRAUMA center. GSW's of any degree call for a level I trauma center. All 911 systems have certain "automatic launch" criteria and GSW's are on them all for sure. Now was this just an oversight by 911?
can you provide proof that 911 staff makes the call (or it is automatic) to send helicopters out in 2012 in COnnecticut to every shooting?

oh and proof that every gun shot wound calls for a level 1 trauma team? Pisani had a gun shot wound, didnt leave the school for (lets say an hour i dont want to look it up again) and she was not transported to a level 1 truama center.
 

Paramedic

Member
can you provide proof that 911 staff makes the call (or it is automatic) to send helicopters out in 2012 in COnnecticut to every shooting?

oh and proof that every gun shot wound calls for a level 1 trauma team? Pisani had a gun shot wound, didnt leave the school for (lets say an hour i dont want to look it up again) and she was not transported to a level 1 truama center.
What I can prove is that every pediatric GSW per Connecticut EMS protocol requires the patient to be transferred to a PICU capable hospital. Danbury does not have a PICU. They have a NICU but no PICU and they are totally different departments. IF pediatric patients were transferred to Danbury, which they were, then it was another major protocol violation. I'm not one to lend to the conspiracy theories, I'm just pointing out the glaring protocol variations that lend credence to the alternative theories of the incident. As far as who calls (whether it's 911 or EMA) air support, no one did and it's not for the reasons stated in the original post because Danbury was not a viable hospital choice PER PEDIATRIC GSW PROTOCOL. Now if online medical control was contacted, which should be in the redacted paramedic reports (which are currently being held from public view) the OLMD could have rerouted the ALS equipped Ambulances to Danbury and denied flight, but then the doctor making that call is violating protocol and opening himself up for a lawsuit....
 

Paramedic

Member
And from my research, the closest PICU unit is in Hartford, CT at children's. If I'm mistaken on that fact please feel free to correct me, but a quick Google maps shows that location 48 miles and almost an hour away. In that scenario, any responsible paramedic would not only request air assets but insist that they intercept due to the extensive trauma training EMT-P receive. That first hour isn't called the golden hour for nothing. None of that occurred. In order to believe the official story, you would have to accept that all responding medics were complacent and did not request additional support for dying children. Something doesn't add up. Do I think something occurred? Yes, I just don't think it quite happened like is being reported.
 

Paramedic

Member
I'm new to this, but are you asserting that the default protocol for any homicide is that Life Star
helicopters are to be dispatched, unless someone makes a specific order to check out of it?
Even if there's no sign of life? Even if ground transport to a nearby hospital is obviously a better choice?
Yes. In certain instances (and GSW is one) helicopters should automatically be sent. Why you ask? Easy. First reports are almost always wrong. First reports are called in by people who are most likely untrained and don't know exactly what to look for. Even what would appear to be a life ending injury, may not be and life may be extended. Shallow breathing can be missed, pulses taken on the wrist may be absent but still present on the neck, and heart sounds can be muffled. If an air asset is not sent, a person may die who otherwise may have had a chance at life. Hope that clears u the question.
 

Ray Von Geezer

Senior Member.
As a paramedic and one who interacts with air assets on a regular basis, I call BS. Danbury hospital is a level II TRAUMA center. GSW's of any degree call for a level I trauma center.
This has already been covered - Connecticut Statewide Trauma System, Connecticut Public Health Code If you have updated evidence of the protocols in place at the time please supply it.

19a-177-5. Field triage protocols

(a) The following field triage protocol shall provide criteria to categorize trauma patients and determine destination hospitals with resources appropriate to meet the patient s needs.

[....]

2. Assess the anatomy of the injury. Trauma patients with any of the following injuries shall be taken to a Level I or Level II trauma facility:
(A) gunshot wound to chest, head, neck, abdomen or groin;
(B) third degree burns covering more than fifteen (15) per cent of the body, or third degree burns of face, or airway involvement;
(C) evidence of spinal cord injury;
(D) amputation, other than digits; or
(E) two (2) or more obvious proximal long bone fractures.

[....]

4. Severely injured patients less than thirteen (13) years of age should be taken to a Level I or II facility with pediatric resources including a pediatric ICU.

[...]


5. When transport to a Level I or II trauma facility is indicated but the ground transport time to that hospital is judged to be greater than twenty (20) minutes, determination of destination hospital shall be in accordance with local medical direction.
6. If, despite therapy, the trauma patient's carotid or femoral pulses can not be palpated, airway can not be managed, or external bleeding is uncontrollable, determination of destination hospital shall be in accordance with local medical direction.
7. When in doubt regarding determination of destination hospital, contact medical direction.
(b) All EMS providers transporting trauma patients to hospitals shall provide receiving hospitals with a completed OEMS approved patient care form prior to departing from the hospital. A patient care form shall be completed for each trauma patient at the scene who is not transported and shall be forwarded to the OEMS.

(c) Beginning October 1, 1995, all hospitals and EMS providers shall follow the field triage protocols.

(Effective March 22, 1995.)

19a-177-6. Interhospital transfers

(a) If a trauma patient who meets the Field Triage Protocol criteria for delivery to a Level I or Level II trauma facility is taken to a facility not so designated, that patient shall be transferred to a Level I or Level II trauma facility or the reason that the trauma patient is admitted, discharged or transferred to a different facility shall be documented in the patient's hospital record.

(b) For all interhospital transfers the sending hospital shall

(1) document patient assessment and efforts to stabilize
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Ray Von
 

Paramedic

Member
This has already been covered - Connecticut Statewide Trauma System, Connecticut Public Health Code If you have updated evidence of the protocols in place at the time please supply it.

19a-177-5. Field triage protocols

(a) The following field triage protocol shall provide criteria to categorize trauma patients and determine destination hospitals with resources appropriate to meet the patient s needs.

[....]

2. Assess the anatomy of the injury. Trauma patients with any of the following injuries shall be taken to a Level I or Level II trauma facility:
(A) gunshot wound to chest, head, neck, abdomen or groin;
(B) third degree burns covering more than fifteen (15) per cent of the body, or third degree burns of face, or airway involvement;
(C) evidence of spinal cord injury;
(D) amputation, other than digits; or
(E) two (2) or more obvious proximal long bone fractures.

[....]

4. Severely injured patients less than thirteen (13) years of age should be taken to a Level I or II facility with pediatric resources including a pediatric ICU.
Content from External Source
Ray Von
4. Severely injured patients less than thirteen (13) years of age should be taken to a Level I or II facility with pediatric resources including a pediatric ICU.

And that knocks out Danbury.... thanks for posting that. I couldnt get it to copy and paste earlier....
 

Ray Von Geezer

Senior Member.
4. Severely injured patients less than thirteen (13) years of age should be taken to a Level I or II facility with pediatric resources including a pediatric ICU.

And that knocks out Danbury.... thanks for posting that. I couldnt get it to copy and paste earlier....
No problem, but you seem to be moving on to a different claim without acknowledging your previous one? Do you have evidence of your claim or do you want to withdraw it?

Ray Von
 
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