Debunked: Why were Life Star helicopters not deployed to Sandy Hook School?

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deirdre

Senior Member.
stated that the patient required a level one trauma center.
which was proven false.

The decision made in the field contradicted the protocol
no it didnt.

and the only one who can legally make that decision is online medical control, which brings us back to the point about the missing PCR's
i'm not sure what this means. the medical personnel, dispatchers sttements and exactly what was done regarding hospitals is all in the report.
 

Paramedic

Member
oh and the closest PICU to newtown is Yale. but not if you are driving around off road trying to meet a helicopter coming from Hartford i guess.
I stand corrected.... sorta.... it's still a LEVEL 1 Trauma rating with a PICU which Danbury does not have....
 

NoParty

Senior Member.
I mean this sincerely: I'm confused.

So when you initially called "bs" because of what you claimed was "required"

are you now saying that you meant an alternative variation on "required,"
as opposed to how people usually use the term?
 

Paramedic

Member
The protocol states that pediatric trauma should be delivered to a LEVEL 1-2 trauma with a PICU. Does Danbury have a PICU? No. So therefore PROTOCOL was violated. If you read the proto
I mean this sincerely: I'm confused.

So when you initially called "bs" because of what you claimed was "required"

are you now saying that you meant an alternative variation on "required,"
as opposed to how people usually use the term?
The term required in this instance is two fold. The paramedics on scene are required to deliver the patient to a higher level of care per medical direction and they are required to do it by protocol. There is a dual responsibility in that requirement. If one contradicts the other because of what ever reason (in this situation the air asset was never made available) then they must contact their local medical control for direction on how to proceed since they could not deliver the patient to a hospital with a PICU, by ground transportation, in a reasonable amount of time. That decision is not in the paramedics hands, it is for a doctor to make. That conversation will be recorded in the Patient Care Report and those STILL have not been released.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
The protocol states that pediatric trauma should be delivered to a LEVEL 1-2 trauma with a PICU. Does Danbury have a PICU? No. So therefore PROTOCOL was violated. If you read the proto
i cant comprehend why you keep saying this.. the protocol reads
 

Paramedic

Member
i cant comprehend why you keep saying this.. the protocol reads
Read 4 and 5 again. 4. A child less then 13 should be taken to a facility with a PICU (pediatric ICU) 5. If that can't be done in 20 minutes patient care should be referred to local medical direction (call dr and find out where they need to go). Hope that clarifies. The protocol for the medics is 4. The 5. is if 4 can't be done. 5. Would be a violation of 4 if instructed differently. Perhaps I should have used deviation rather then violation due to the negative connotation. That deviation would however be a violation if medical control was not contacted. We have no written evidence of that deviation approval because the PCR has not been released.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Read 4 and 5 again. 4. A child less then 13 should be taken to a facility with a PICU (pediatric ICU) 5. If that can't be done in 20 minutes patient care should be referred to local medical direction (call dr and find out where they need to go). Hope that clarifies.
is that what 'local medical direction' means? or does it mean a predetermined protocol? because everyone from dispatchers to EMTs to paramedics to the Director of Danbury Hosp seemed to all somehow know they should be brought to Danbury.

 

Paramedic

Member
is that what 'local medical direction' means? or does it mean a predetermined protocol? because everyone from dispatchers to EMTs to paramedics to the Director of Danbury Hosp seemed to all somehow know they should be brought to Danbury.
Local medical direction is referring to the medical direction given by the services ER medical personnel who by state control the actions of the ambulance when their is questions regarding patient care. Usually it's the ER DOC on duty. Is it possible that they deviated from protocol because given the situation they weren't thinking clearly. Absolutely and it happens all the time. Could it have been because nobody thought about it? Yes, this is also true. Could it have been because the hospital had set a precedent prior to this severely discouraging the use of air assets due to monetary loss to other hospitals? Yep you bet, and that happens more then we in the industry admit. Everyone (not derogatory, I did too before I got into the field) assumes that ambulance personnel and especially medics are out there scooping people up and taking them to the closest facility. Most of the time that's true, but in today's age of medicine, specialists aren't everywhere. (I have a doc supporting this). This is why air assets are essential to provided the highest level of care. Hollywood has done a major disservice to the image of ambulances. We provide a certain level of post injury care, helicopter transport provide a step higher then ambulances (vast majority) and then each facility has its own specialties. Some cardiac, some store, some trauma, PEDs, NICU and so on. I looked at this specific situations timeline, and there was plenty of time to coordinate both air assets from hartford and call mutual aid to cover while they were busy. Would it have made a difference? Hate to use a Hillary Clinton line, but at this point what difference does it make? It's not fair for the medics on the ground to have to make the decision to take a dying child to a facility that does not offer that child the best care imaginable, but unfortunately that is the burden we bear everyday because of location, lack of funds, or medical decision. I feel for them...
 

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Paramedic

Member
Also, like I said earlier we in the medical field are human. When you roll up on an accident with a carload of teens (all of which you know) who have hit another vehicle head on and you have people all over the pavement screaming and moaning, it tends to frazzle even the most salty among us. I can only imagine what was going through the minds of the guys on scene wading through the dead to find the barely breathing. Like I also said, there are some things you can't unsee. I've seen a lot stateside that I never expected, but life is what it is. There is no reason to withhold the PCR'S unless there is something wrong. I contend we've been talking about it all day and they are afraid of the lawsuits. If it was my child and every available asset wasn't utilized you bet I'd be the first in line. Gotta go to work. It's been a pleasure....
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Local medical direction is referring to the medical direction given by the services ER medical personnel who by state control the actions of the ambulance when their is questions regarding patient care
ok well around 10 am that was Dr. Broderick at Danbury then.
 

Paramedic

Member
ok well around 10 am that was Dr. Broderick at Danbury then.
They hadn't found the first breathing victim at 10am yet.
what's a PCR? i thought medical records were confidential.
Medical records are confidential however they can be redacted removing the patients name and identifying information and released for public review for various reasons. ( Education and reTraining sessions come to mind) It can either be done by court order, patient permission, or in the case of a fatality some states allow the immediate release. These would answer a ton of remaining questions.
 

Paramedic

Member
if it was my child and they waited for a helicopter vs Danbury which is an excellant hospital, i'd sue.
If they had launched the minute the first officer saw the first victim or when the call came in, there wouldn't have been a wait... see the merit of launching early and often? That's why they charge 15k a flight. They're there, use them
 

MikeC

Closed Account
"If..." isn't evidence....this site is for examining claims of evidence.

All this "argument by example" is supposition and assertion, from everyone.
 

Paramedic

Member
Because we have already illuminated the fact that vital records to answer important questions STILL haven't been released after YEARS. how else are we supposed to discuss something like this without the necessary documentation???
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
If they had launched the minute the first officer saw the first victim or when the call came in, there wouldn't have been a wait... see the merit of launching early and often? That's why they charge 15k a flight. They're there, use them
what Mike said.

But bottom line, you are crying negligence (a very possibly libel claim) without any evidence of negligence.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
They hadn't found the first breathing victim at 10am yet.
although a child was brought out before that time
upload_2016-8-27_20-49-19.png
 

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Paramedic

Member
Truth is always a defense. Plus the intent must be proved to intentionally damage any libel victim. My intent is clear. To provide better care at the next incident. Without discussing perceived mistakes, no one improves. Try again.
 

Paramedic

Member
although a child was brought out before that time
upload_2016-8-27_20-49-19.png
Cool.... get the air asset launch criteria for 2012 and the PCR'S and they say what you've asserted, then I'll stand down. Otherwise it's still up for discussion and I'll continue saying what I've already said...
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
Truth is always a defense. Plus the intent must be proved to intentionally damage any libel victim. My intent is clear. To provide better care at the next incident. Without discussing perceived mistakes, no one improves. Try again.
Except you haven't pointed out any mistakes. Just what you believe to be mistakes. Except they aren't.
 

Paramedic

Member
Out of the two of us, I would be the SME on whether a mistake or oversight was made. I have the license to support my opinion. My whole argument was calling BS on the reasoning why air assets weren't used. Nowhere in the initial post was the continuance of care or launch protocol mentioned. That's where the real error was made
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Nowhere in the initial post was the continuance of care or launch protocol mentioned. That's where the real error was made

At the time the claim was simply that helicopters were quicker. Discussions of protocol came later in the thread.
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
Out of the two of us, I would be the SME on whether a mistake or oversight was made. I have the license to support my opinion. My whole argument was calling BS on the reasoning why air assets weren't used. Nowhere in the initial post was the continuance of care or launch protocol mentioned. That's where the real error was made
Really? You don't know who I am. I support my assertions with evidence. Something you have been largely unable to do. When asked to support your assertion that helos are always sent for shooting incidents you provided evidence that didn't support your assertion. The posting guidelines require evidence not a self proclaimed subject matter expert.
 

Paramedic

Member
At the time the claim was simply that helicopters were quicker. Discussions of protocol came later in the thread.
But if you're going to discuss the use of certain equipment regardless of the claim, make sure to know all the reasons that equipment is utilized or you end up with 4 pages of conjecture and blind reliance on news and official documents.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
Because we have already illuminated the fact that vital records to answer important questions STILL haven't been released after YEARS. how else are we supposed to discuss something like this without the necessary documentation???

Stat by showing that the documents exist in the first place - provide FOI (or whatever your equivalent is) requests tht have been refused, all that sort of actual concrete evidence.

Statements that they "must exist", etc., are also not evidence.
 

Paramedic

Member
Really? You don't know who I am. I support my assertions with evidence. Something you have been largely unable to do. When asked to support your assertion that helos are always sent for shooting incidents you provided evidence that didn't support your assertion. The posting guidelines require evidence not a self proclaimed subject matter expert.
When you didn't understand the very basics of US law governing patient medical information privacy, it wasn't much of an assumption to say you're not in the medical field. From the CNA up to Doctor, that is beat into our heads throughout our schooling. If you so desire I can scan a copy of my national registry license (redacted) or send you a signed copy.... it'll be a few days though. Pulling some long hours
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
Stat by showing that the documents exist in the first place - provide FOI (or whatever your equivalent is) requests tht have been refused, all that sort of actual concrete evidence.

Statements that they "must exist", etc., are also not evidence.
Here it is FOIA.
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
When you didn't understand the very basics of US law governing patient medical information privacy, it wasn't much of an assumption to say you're not in the medical field. From the CNA up to Doctor, that is beat into our heads throughout our schooling. If you so desire I can scan a copy of my national registry license (redacted) or send you a signed copy.... it'll be a few days though. Pulling some long hours
As has been said many times here. Appeals to authority don't fly here. Evidence does. Have any?
 

Paramedic

Member
As has been said many times here. Appeals to authority don't fly here. Evidence does. Have any?
You copy my statement saying I would be willing to scan a copy of my license but it would be a few days and then accuse me of appealing to authority. With all due respect, please reread my comment....
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
You copy my statement saying I would be willing to scan a copy of my license but it would be a few days and then accuse me of appealing to authority. With all due respect, please reread my comment....
Your authority does not matter. You said helos are always deployed during a mass shooting incident. You provided evidence that didn't support your assertion.
 

Ray Von Geezer

Senior Member.
The protocol states that pediatric trauma should be delivered to a LEVEL 1-2 trauma with a PICU. Does Danbury have a PICU? No. So therefore PROTOCOL was violated. If you read the proto

Read 4 and 5 again. 4. A child less then 13 should be taken to a facility with a PICU (pediatric ICU) 5. If that can't be done in 20 minutes patient care should be referred to local medical direction (call dr and find out where they need to go). Hope that clarifies. The protocol for the medics is 4. The 5. is if 4 can't be done. 5. Would be a violation of 4 if instructed differently. Perhaps I should have used deviation rather then violation due to the negative connotation. That deviation would however be a violation if medical control was not contacted. We have no written evidence of that deviation approval because the PCR has not been released.

I think you're missing two key points.

Firstly, point 5 is not tied to point 4, it's at the same level as all other points in that section, and referes only to Lvl I or II trauma centres, not paediatric trauma centres specifically.

Secondly, "shall" and "should". As I said before, these aren't just arbitrary terms, at least not when used in official documents, they're defined when used in law, regulation and standards. "Shall" traditionally meant "must" (although it's actually being replaced by "must" due to some ambiguity with "should"). The meaning of "should" however has been pretty constant and well understood - it implies a recommendation.

Just in case there was some subtle difference in the USA, I looked for evidence of usage, in law and standards it's much the same, but most usefully I found an excellent source in the "Federal Plain Language Guidelines" which provides guidance to agencies under the "Plain Writing Act of 2010" site. Who says bureaucracy doesn't have it's uses?

If that is the case, which given the nature of the document and the differing uses of the terms looks likely, then as the protocol reads there is a recommendation to transfer minors to a paediatric ICU, not an obligation.

Of course, this makes perfect sense - as Deirdre pointed out what wouldn't make sense is that EMTs would be subject to a hard and fast rule that meant a badly injured child had to be transported to a "PICU" even though there were a closer (though non-paediatric) trauma centre nearby.

Ray Von
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Cool.... get the air asset launch criteria for 2012 and the PCR'S and they say what you've asserted, then I'll stand down. Otherwise it's still up for discussion and I'll continue saying what I've already said...
i wouldnt ask for the PCRs because they are confidential. as far as air asset launch criteria, i see no indication anywhere that there are any in Connecticut.
2006: Statewide Trauma System
http://www.ct.gov/dph/lib/dph/publi...77-1_to_19a-177-9_statewide_trauma_system.pdf

a 2014 write up says our [..] is admittedly outdated, which sounds very believable for Connecticut.
Although you did lead me to some interesting facts i didnt previously realize. There was only ONE helicopter in Hartford, the other was on the other side of the state. and sometimes the nurse on flight IS the paramedic (not that i think that matters in the discussion as a RT is nice to have)

with a flight nurse AND a paramedic vs. just a paramedic.

 

deirdre

Senior Member.
though non-paediatric) trauma
Danbury has pediatric trauma care, the only thing they dont have is a PICU.
 

Paramedic

Member
i wouldnt ask for the PCRs because they are confidential. as far as air asset launch criteria, i see no indication anywhere that there are any in Connecticut.
2006: Statewide Trauma System
http://www.ct.gov/dph/lib/dph/publi...77-1_to_19a-177-9_statewide_trauma_system.pdf

a 2014 write up says our [..] is admittedly outdated, which sounds very believable for Connecticut.
Although you did lead me to some interesting facts i didnt previously realize. There was only ONE helicopter in Hartford, the other was on the other side of the state. and sometimes the nurse on flight IS the paramedic (not that i think that matters in the discussion as a RT is nice to have)



So it was a worthwhile discussion. See? Glad I could help.... and to think I thought our system was antiquated.... geeze Louise! We have two helicopters within 30 miles and 7 within 60.... what are they paying all those taxes for????
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
So it was a worthwhile discussion. See? Glad I could help.... and to think I thought our system was antiquated.... geeze Louise! We have two helicopters within 30 miles and 7 within 60.... what are they paying all those taxes for????
liberals. we're broke.
 

Paramedic

Member
liberals. we're broke.
Just to clarify, our system auto launches for MVC with rollover
MVC with ejection
GSW
Major burns
Near drowning
Drowning
Anything involving trains
And at the 911 operations discretion based on mechanism of injury (MOI)
It works beautifully and 90% of the time they are there within 20 min from the 911 call. It saves lives. If they aren't needed we cancel them. I strongly suggest a rewrite of the above to include something similar. It prioritizes patient care.... good luck!
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
Just to clarify, our system auto launches for MVC with rollover
MVC with ejection
GSW
Major burns
Near drowning
Drowning
Anything involving trains
And at the 911 operations discretion based on mechanism of injury (MOI)
It works beautifully and 90% of the time they are there within 20 min from the 911 call. It saves lives. If they aren't needed we cancel them. I strongly suggest a rewrite of the above to include something similar. It prioritizes patient care.... good luck!
Please post evidence of this.
 

Ray Von Geezer

Senior Member.
Just to clarify, our system auto launches for MVC with rollover
MVC with ejection
GSW
Major burns
Near drowning
Drowning
Anything involving trains
And at the 911 operations discretion based on mechanism of injury (MOI)
It works beautifully and 90% of the time they are there within 20 min from the 911 call. It saves lives. If they aren't needed we cancel them. I strongly suggest a rewrite of the above to include something similar. It prioritizes patient care.... good luck!
Please provide evidence for this, and explain how 'Auto launch' triggered by the 911 call fits with any kind of prioritisation. Assuming finite air resources, every time a resource is deployed to an incident needlessly it would be unavailable to attend other incidents where it may be useful. That's not prioritisation.

Not to mention the waste of money such a scheme would necessarily incur.

Ray Von
 
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