Debunked: Why were Life Star helicopters not deployed to Sandy Hook School?

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deirdre

Senior Member.
LifeStar is routinely deployed to serious auto accidents in CT, and presumably that means it has a decently-short launch time in general
no. it is not routinely deployed.

and again. the children were not unaccounted for. they had Teachers who accounted for them. only Sotos class didn't have teachers. I'm positive if a teacher was missing student she would have spoken up. I'm positive if there was a bleeding student in the boiler room or a closet Baro or one of the other search dogs would have found them.

Teachers STAY with their students until all parents have arrived. They just do.

and actually, although now I cant find the article because the Conspiracy theorists have bogged up the search engines so bad, the Room2 teacher with the foot wound didn't want to leave right away. which makes sense in light of the fact SHE chose to go to Bridgeport Hospital when there are 4 (possibly 5-Yale might be closer too) hospitals closer than Bridgeport.

They also could have called Lifestar in at any time if they thought a safety issue was developing no?

There are many areas in CT where you cant get to a hospital quickly, what if a child was in a car accident in one of these areas? to unnecessarily tie up resources would have been negligent.
 

Kerensa

Closed Account
I think it's hard to say that LifeStar wasn't deployed because they weren't needed, when we are not actually sure whether an attempt was made to deploy or not.

I don't think we can say with certainty that LifeStar was not needed any more than we can say with certainty it was needed. But as we saw in the Murrysville case, helicopters are not deployed only if there is a guarantee of use. Of course each state's/region's policies may differ, and the number of choppers available differs, and so on. But to say LifeStar absolutely was or wasn't necessary is premature.
 

Kerensa

Closed Account
By routinely deployed, I mean that it is a very active service (i.e. not a once-a-year or rare service). Just a few examples from 2012:

March 17, 2012: http://www.wfsb.com/story/17182530/lifestar-helicopter-called-to-somers-crash
April 28 (?) 2012 (2 choppers): http://www.hcwlaw.com/two-life-star-helicopters-called-for-new-hartford-ct-accident/
Aug 17, 2012: Sep 12, 2012: http://www.wfsb.com/story/19526299/life-star-called-to-scene-of-crash

Point being that it seems to be a regularly-used service, and with only 2 choppers covering all of CT, this would seem to imply that they have a decent response time.

My personal feeling is that at some point we'll find the relevant documents/citations of LifeStar being called for Sandy Hook; I think it would be very unexpected for them to not be called at all. But there may well have been a decision not to land, in the end, and I would be interested in finding out on what basis it was made.

Anecdotally, a man in a neighboring town said he saw LifeStar flying just after the shooting, but of course we can't know whether they were on their way to that emergency or not:

"%&#$, my 4yr old's daycare is like 2 miles from there.
I'm in Danbury at work. Portion of city is closed for vehicles to the hospital.
Helicpters including Life Star flying back and forth."

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/la...cut-school-shooting-cant-get-my-daughter.html

Bluntly, again, 28 people had just been shot, were either dead or dying, and remaining staff/students not yet fully accounted for. Are we genuinely suggesting LifeStar would not be called?
 
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deirdre

Senior Member.
But there may well have been a decision not to land, in the end, and I would be interested in finding out what it was.
I don't really understand your obsession but to each his own.

mostly life star is hospital to hospital transport. but yes it is occasional used for traffic accidents et al.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Bluntly, again, 28 people had just been shot, were either dead or dying, and remaining staff/students not yet fully accounted for, and officers being activated to deal with potential additional scenes based on the feeling shooters remained at large. Are we genuinely suggesting LifeStar would not be called?

Lifestar is called for an actual specific need, not so much for a potential need.

What if they send the Lifestar over there just in case, and there was a big accident elsewhere with immediate known medevac needs?

It wasn't called because nobody made the call, because nobody thought it would be necessary, and as it turned it it was not.
 

Kerensa

Closed Account
I don't really understand your obsession but to each his own.

mostly life star is hospital to hospital transport. but yes it is occasional used for traffic accidents et al.

Information saves lives. The public, including concerned parents such as myself, and school administrators, etc.., are being forced to do the work Stephen Sedensky was hired to do. He chose to spend his time shielding the state from lawsuit instead of putting together a document that deserved to be called a report (see the VA Tech shooting report, or Columbine report, by comparison).

This kind of thing happens, of course, and politics mucking up the waters is nothing new. But it is discouraging and costly for parents and schools and first responders when the people hired to do a job don't do it.

It really matters whether LifeStar was called or not, particularly if they were called but couldn't make it, or whether a decision was made not to deploy when they should have deployed, or whether they couldn't land for some reason, or any number of other potential explanations. There may be a simple and satisfactory answer, but until we know for certain, it's not worth risking lives in future by failing to establish what happened.
 

Kerensa

Closed Account
Lifestar is called for an actual specific need, not so much for a potential need.

What if they send the Lifestar over there just in case, and there was a big accident elsewhere with immediate known medevac needs?

It wasn't called because nobody made the call, because nobody thought it would be necessary, and as it turned it it was not.

But how do we know nobody made the call? I apologize if I've missed something--but I wasn't aware any indication had been found (other than eyewitness claims of LifeStar flying that morning) that the birds were or were not requested.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
But how do we know nobody made the call? I apologize if I've missed something--but I wasn't aware any indication had been found (other than eyewitness claims of LifeStar flying that morning) that the birds were or were not requested.

We know nobody made the call because the Lifestar helicoper did not come.
 

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
Sometimes, there simply is no "conspiracy", except what has been imagined after-the-fact (again, "hindsight" and "Monday-Morning-Quarterbacking".....and, I don't even like sport!!).
 

Kerensa

Closed Account
With all due respect, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I fully expect to find that Life Star was called for Sandy Hook; my question is why it didn't come in the end (though actually, we can't be positive it didn't overfly). Not because I think it's a conspiracy to deprive injured of care, but because a decision was likely made, or a problem encountered and I want to know what that decision and/or problem was.


"Posted: Jan 15, 2014 5:46 PM CST Updated: Feb 12, 2014 6:35 PM CST
By Joseph Wenzel IV, News Editor - email
New Hartford, CT (WFSB) -
A six-year-old child was "not severely injured" after falling off a lift at Ski Sundown in New Hartford Wednesday evening, emergency officials said. The incident was reported at 126 Ratlum Rd. about 6:30 p.m. The Life Star medical helicopter was called as a precaution, but emergency officials said minor injuries were reported"

http://www.wfsb.com/story/24464920/child-injured-at-ski-sundown-in-new-hartford

While I agree that services like Life Star are used conservatively, so as to avoid being unavailable for more serious calls, I think it's clear from the above example that the scene commander's choices play a part, and I would be surprised if the scene commander at Sandy Hook hadn't called Life Star as a precaution.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
While I agree that services like Life Star are used conservatively, so as to avoid being unavailable for more serious calls, I think it's clear from the above example that the scene commander's choices play a part, and I would be surprised if the scene commander at Sandy Hook hadn't called Life Star as a precaution.

Being surprising does not mean it didn't happen.

What actual point are you trying to make here? What are you suggesting might have happened?
 

Kerensa

Closed Account
Being surprising does not mean it didn't happen.

What actual point are you trying to make here? What are you suggesting might have happened?

Just that I think it's premature to say Life Star was not called due to a decision made that ground ambulances were the best and only choice.

I believe that the sheer number of casualties, unknowns regarding survivors, nature of potential injuries (obviously life-threatening in the known victims), road blockage, and question of casualties overwhelming Danbury (i.e. patients possibly needing to be flown elsewhere) make an air ambulance deployment expected.

I believe that the three air ambulances standing by at Murrysville were there not only for known patients, but potential patients. When you have rapidly-increasing victims list, with a high number of overall victims, the decision to have choppers standby becomes not only justified but expected--or certainly not unexpected.

Newtown was lucky (or unlucky, sadly) that choppers weren't needed, but given the number of survivors not accounted for for hours, who could have been seriously injured judging by the nature of the deceaseds' wounds, I think a good case could be made that failing to have choppers on standby was bad policy (if in fact such a decision was even made).

The problem is that we really don't know what decision, if any, was made, who made it, or how they made it. All we know is that in far less serious cases in CT, Life Star has been called.
 
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Landru

Moderator
Staff member
Just that I think it's premature to say Life Star was not called due to a decision made that ground ambulances were the best and only choice.

Do you have any proof to support your claim? Until you do you are just repeating your claim to no purpose.
 

Kerensa

Closed Account
Do you have any proof to support your claim? Until you do you are just repeating your claim to no purpose.

The question for me is how we know Life Star was not called, and how more specifically we know it was not called because it was determined ground ambulances were the only transport needed.

Unless a representative from NPD, CSP, or Life Star, or a regional official has made such a statement, on what basis can we state definitively that this is what happened? I don't doubt that it's a possibility, I just don't see on what basis we can make such a claim at the moment.

It's as good a guess as any, but without supporting statements or documentation, we can't know this is what happened. And that's fine--I'm just saying that it's premature to make an authoritative statement that this is what happened.

I would expect to find some discussion of this in the Sandy Hook Advisory Commission minutes; I'll start reading through more of them and see if this issue is referenced at all.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Not that I'd condone using Halbig as a source, but:
http://www.mrconservative.com/2014/...atened-for-investigating-sandy-hook-shooting/
The purpose of this thread was to provide an explanation for why they were never asked - a more sensible explanation than Halbig's "it was all fake". Now if you've got some evidence that they were asked, but then did not show up for some other reason, then that's kind of a different topic/conspiracy/criticism.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
@Kerensa you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. and yet you claim to have listened to the radio calls.

and, OT- may I ask, exactly what have you DONE with these concerns of yours? Have you examined the procedures in place for your daughter's school? Has your town assured you helicopters would be flown in immediately?

What you are trying to get at here is unclear. You keep saying you aren't accusing anyone of negligence, and yet you are.

and stop saying "but given the number of survivors not accounted for for hours, who could have been seriously injured" type stuff. It is a blatant lie. Within half an hour ALL uninjured children & injured children were accounted for.
 

Kerensa

Closed Account
@Kerensa you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. and yet you claim to have listened to the radio calls.

and, OT- may I ask, exactly what have you DONE with these concerns of yours? Have you examined the procedures in place for your daughter's school? Has your town assured you helicopters would be flown in immediately?

What you are trying to get at here is unclear. You keep saying you aren't accusing anyone of negligence, and yet you are.

and stop saying "but given the number of survivors not accounted for for hours, who could have been seriously injured" type stuff. It is a blatant lie. Within half an hour ALL uninjured children & injured children were accounted for.

I don't believe I stated I had a daughter.

All staff and students were absolutely not accounted for within half an hour. The incident began at 9:30 a.m. and the 4-5 children picked up and taken from the scene were not even made known to the scene commander until 10:30 a.m., at which point their names were still not known.

Keep in mind that to account for every potential injured person, police (most of them not from Newtown) had to establish the following:

1. Exactly who, among 458 enrolled students and 100 staff was in the school at the time of the shooting
2. Exactly who, among 458 enrolled students and 100 staff had stayed home that day
3. Exactly who, among 458 enrolled students and 100 staff had left the scene under their own power

And you have to know all that before you can begin to do the actual accounting.

It's enough of a problem to know who exactly you're looking for and try to find them; but these officers didn't even know who they were looking for. Attendance had not been taken. Some students and staff were home sick, or on vacation, or on excused absence. I respectfully disagree that it is possible confirm the location of 558 people in half an hour, as evidenced by Ms. Cox and Halstead's hiding for four hours in a school closet.

Not trying to be rude, but what you're saying is simply not true (or even possible), and the people who were actually unaccounted for have made public statements indicating they were unaccounted for until (for example) 1:15 p.m.

I'm not accusing first responders of negligence. After any incident there is a review of what went right and what went wrong, and accountability went wrong, for reasons that were not the police's fault in many cases. There's a reason accountability and reunification are being addressed nationwide post-Newtown.

When 600 people flee a building, chaos is to be expected, but we can and should do better next time. Unfortunately, it seems to be something of a taboo to critique the Newtown response, and that is unacceptable. Information saves lives.

My kids' school just spent thousands on a hardened front door, months before an analysis was released showing that may not be where schools should put the money; interior classroom doors may be more important.
 
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deirdre

Senior Member.
being AT the police station is the exact opposite of "missing"/unaccounted for . Youre missing the point. No police in the first half hour/hour/etc were trying to count children. they were looking for wounded and shooters.

it's the teachers responsibility (it was a school day, they were IN school) to account for their children. and they did. Granted one of the children from the 2 classrooms might have limped away, but even without a dog it would be fairly easy to follow the blood trail no?

The only 'confusion' and I hate to use that word was identifying the deceased in the classrooms. and yes I'm sure everyone was hoping a child WOULD be found somewhere else, which is why they searched. and searched and searched.

You keep talking about things that did not happen. we can make up "what if" scenarios until the end of time. what is the point in that?

Mick has fully debunked why Lifestar was not at Sandy Hook. end of story for this thread.

ps. if two adults don't want to come out of the closet when police call for them, I don't count that as unaccounted for. This is America if they don't want to be accounted for, then that's their choice. if they were wounded the police would have seen blood when they looked through the window into the room.
 

Kerensa

Closed Account
being AT the police station is the exact opposite of "missing"/unaccounted for . Youre missing the point. No police in the first half hour/hour/etc were trying to count children. they were looking for wounded and shooters.

it's the teachers responsibility (it was a school day, they were IN school) to account for their children. and they did. Granted one of the children from the 2 classrooms might have limped away, but even without a dog it would be fairly easy to follow the blood trail no?

The only 'confusion' and I hate to use that word was identifying the deceased in the classrooms. and yes I'm sure everyone was hoping a child WOULD be found somewhere else, which is why they searched. and searched and searched.

You keep talking about things that did not happen. we can make up "what if" scenarios until the end of time. what is the point in that?

Mick has fully debunked why Lifestar was not at Sandy Hook. end of story for this thread.

Multiple CSP troopers submitted reports of the hours they spent canvassing the neighborhood for children. That means the children were missing, or rather, that it was not known if children were missing, because police had no way of knowing the names of every student and staff member who was at the school that day.

That means they could have been in a closet, not found by police for four hours, injured.

Some parents swooped in and grabbed their kids and left. This means police had to make contact with that family--and only after they were able to find out that family existed and had a kid at SHS that day.

To suggest that police knew in short order there were no students injured in the school is illogical and not supported by the police's own actions.

I am curious, though, why the dogs didn't alert to Ms. Cox and Halstead in the closet--maybe the dogs were being used mostly outside?
 
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deirdre

Senior Member.
Multiple CSP troopers submitted reports of the hours they spent canvassing the neighborhood for children. That means the children were missing, or rather, that it was not known if children were missing, because police had no way of knowing the names of every student and staff member who was at the school that day.

That means they could have been in a closet, not found by police for four hours, injured.
so when police do what police are supposed to do, you gripe about that too? this has nothing to do with Lifestar being needed. youre OT.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I'm pausing this thread for a few days as it has wandered off topic. Feel free to continue in PMs.
 

huskyfan68

New Member
This will probably get flagged which I am not sure why. I am just asking a simple question as to why no person in the EMS chain of command (police, fire, dispatch, EMS etc)- there are a multitude of people who could have called for any of these services to go on standby. I would like to know why none were contacted.


Yale New Haven Hospital: Level One trauma Plus Pediatric trauma
https://www.ynhh.org/medical-professionals/sky-health.aspx
-45 min by ground- (15-17min) by air- Were they called to go on standby?- No
Hartford Hospital
http://www.harthosp.org/lifestar/FlightCrew/default.aspx
Level One trauma and level I Pediatric
Flight time (approx. 20)min
Were they called?- no
Air Medical
http://www.airmedicalflights.com/connecticut-air-ambulance-service.aspx
Based outside of Watertown, CT. Private air company
Shorter flight to any number of Level One/Level 2 trauma centers
Were they called? No
West Chester Medical CTR. NY- Level one with Aeromedical (52min ground-approx 25min air)
http://www.airmethods.com/
http://www.westchestermedicalcenter.com/EmergencyMedicine
Mid Hudson Hospital- Poughkeepsie- Level 2 with Aeromedical
http://www.midhudsonregional.org/emergency-trauma-services
WHO CAN REQUEST LIFE STAR?
Any EMS person who is responding to the scene and is certified by OEMS:

  • POLICE
  • Fire Personal
  • MRT, EMT all levels
  • Nurse or Physician
(top)



GUIDELINES FOR REQUESTING LIFE STAR
Mechanism of Injury
  • Fall from over 20 feet
  • Apparent high speed impact
  • Ejection from vehicle
  • Death of another passenger
  • Passenger with multiple injuries
  • Major vehicle deformity- outside/inside
  • Vehicle rollover
  • Pedestrian struck at speed >20mph

Physiologic Factors
  • Systolic BP <90 mmHG
  • RR <10 >29
  • Respiratory Distress (drowning, fire)
  • Pulse <60 >110
  • Cardiac Event with unstable vital signs
  • Hypothermia/Hyperthermia
  • Anaphylaxis
  • High Risk Pregnancy/Complications
  • GCS <12
Situational Factors
  • Prolonged Extrication
  • Increased Travel Time
  • Rural of Isolated Area
  • Medical or Community Disaster

Anatomic Factors
  • GSW to Head, Neck, Chest, Abdomen, or Groin
  • Penetrating Injury to above
  • Severe Burns: >15% of BSA
  • Burns to Face and Neck
  • Possible Spinal Cord Injury
  • Amputation
  • Fracture of 2 or more Long Bones
WHEN TO REQUEST LIFE STAR
  • When the patient looks bad or the source of injury is impressive
  • The aircraft can always turn around
  • Work within local Fire/EMS protocols
  • REQUEST SHOULD BE MADE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE
Level one trauma centers: Yale, Hartford
Level two: Bridgeport, Danbury, Stamford, St Vincents
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
and Yale didnt have that helicopter till 2014. Not that it would have been called if they had it in 2012. Just saying.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Work within local Fire/EMS protocols

What were the local Fire/EMS protocols that were relevant on that day?

I am just asking a simple question as to why no person in the EMS chain of command (police, fire, dispatch, EMS etc)- there are a multitude of people who could have called for any of these services to go on standby. I would like to know why none were contacted.

How do you know none were contacted?
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
I've called several of them in the area- None received a call to even go on standby
i'm suspicious.

Yale did not have a helicopter in 2012, but they didnt tell you that?
Watertown flies planes not helicopters, but they didnt tell you that?
wtby.PNG

Poughkeepsie and Westchester are rather far away, so it would be exceptionally rare for them to be called to connecticut, but they didnt tell you that? Have they EVER been called to connecticut for any reason?
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
I've called several of them in the area- None received a call to even go on standby
As Mick mentioned in the OP this was not a geographically remote location and hospitals were available that were closer in time than helos. Your Guidelines listed above are just that, guidelines. Not mandates.
 

huskyfan68

New Member
i'm suspicious.

Yale did not have a helicopter in 2012, but they didnt tell you that?
Watertown flies planes not helicopters, but they didnt tell you that?
wtby.PNG

Poughkeepsie and Westchester are rather far away, so it would be exceptionally rare for them to be called to connecticut, but they didnt tell you that? Have they EVER been called to connecticut for any reason?
I lived there for 25 years.. All of you appear very defensive in your responses. I have complied in every way with your rules and regulations. I have been challenged as to my credentials (been call a volunteer fireman)- you asked for data and certain questions. Your tone has been anything but professional. Anyone that questions anything about this story seems to be cast into the crazy category. I am asking simple questions. I called West Chester several years ago as well as Hartford (the closest) - They were never contacted. This is an alarming piece of information when you are in the business of saving lives. Landru - what hospital besides Danbury was within a reasonable distance by ground to transport gravely injured patients (at a scene where the entire ground route was blocked?). Areo medical seems to make much more sense considering you have wide open baseball field. Saving lives in trauma is about one thing... Speed. That's it- it's the first thing taught. If your child's care (yes even if barely alive) was compromised by even 30 seconds- there would be lawsuits galore. Why are there no lawsuits??? I've been sued 3-4 times as a career EMT for various reasons (none to do with pt care). It happens all the time because people think you have superpowers....
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
I lived there for 25 years.. All of you appear very defensive in your responses. I have complied in every way with your rules and regulations. I have been challenged as to my credentials (been call a volunteer fireman)- you asked for data and certain questions. Your tone has been anything but professional. Anyone that questions anything about this story seems to be cast into the crazy category. I am asking simple questions. I called West Chester several years ago as well as Hartford (the closest) - They were never contacted. This is an alarming piece of information when you are in the business of saving lives. Landru - what hospital besides Danbury was within a reasonable distance by ground to transport gravely injured patients (at a scene where the entire ground route was blocked?). Areo medical seems to make much more sense considering you have wide open baseball field. Saving lives in trauma is about one thing... Speed. That's it- it's the first thing taught. If your child's care (yes even if barely alive) was compromised by even 30 seconds- there would be lawsuits galore. Why are there no lawsuits??? I've been sued 3-4 times as a career EMT for various reasons (none to do with pt care). It happens all the time because people think you have superpowers....
I think this has been adequately covered in the OP and the thread. No new ground.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
I have been challenged as to my credentials (been call a volunteer fireman)-
i didnt call you a volenteer fireman. and i dont recall anyone else calling you that. i do recall i have asked you to verify your credentials, since you have chosen to argue from a position of "authority", and you have yet to provide any.

I am asking simple questions
And you were provided extremely reasonable reasons. ESPECIALLY if you lived in the area for 25 years. Did you forget about Waterbury Hospital? Griffin?

I am only argumentive because you say things that don't seem reasonable. And you are basically spamming hte site by posting the samething now in 3 different threads. Have you bothered to read the medical information in the report yet?
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
i didnt call you a volenteer fireman. and i dont recall anyone else calling you that. i do recall i have asked you to verify your credentials, since you have chosen to argue from a position of "authority", and you have yet to provide any.

In a pm I said "for all I know you worked in a volunteer fire department." This after I told him the position of authority argument doesn’t really qualify.
 

NoParty

Senior Member.
I lived there for 25 years.. All of you appear very defensive in your responses. I have complied in every way with your rules and regulations. I have been challenged as to my credentials (been call a volunteer fireman)- you asked for data and certain questions. Your tone has been anything but professional. Anyone that questions anything about this story seems to be cast into the crazy category. I am asking simple questions. I called West Chester several years ago as well as Hartford (the closest) - They were never contacted. This is an alarming piece of information when you are in the business of saving lives. Landru - what hospital besides Danbury was within a reasonable distance by ground to transport gravely injured patients (at a scene where the entire ground route was blocked?). Areo medical seems to make much more sense considering you have wide open baseball field. Saving lives in trauma is about one thing... Speed. That's it- it's the first thing taught. If your child's care (yes even if barely alive) was compromised by even 30 seconds- there would be lawsuits galore. Why are there no lawsuits??? I've been sued 3-4 times as a career EMT for various reasons (none to do with pt care). It happens all the time because people think you have superpowers....
You realize of course that calling strangers "defensive" for merely asking questions about unsubstantiated
assertions is probably not the way most people would set a "tone"...and yet it's you that is complaining.

"Professional" is an interesting word choice, too. No one here earns a dime accommodating people
who ask questions. It's not a profession. But--by policy--people here will be nice to you even if you argue poorly
or spam with similar questions across multiple threads. If you are aware of a site on which people like that
are treated more politely than you have been here, please share that site with me.

Personally, I have no idea why professionals at the scene, who didn't believe they had any in need
of a helicopter for treatment, would be wasting time acting as if they did. So all I know is that the professionals
in the actual situation did x, while anonymous person on the internet, over 3 years later, claims he is a pro and that he's second-
guessing them. :oops: Is it really rude if I just don't see much there?
 

huskyfan68

New Member
You realize of course that calling strangers "defensive" for merely asking questions about unsubstantiated
assertions is probably not the way most people would set a "tone"...and yet it's you that is complaining.

"Professional" is an interesting word choice, too. No one here earns a dime accommodating people
who ask questions. It's not a profession. But--by policy--people here will be nice to you even if you argue poorly
or spam with similar questions across multiple threads. If you are aware of a site on which people like that
are treated more politely than you have been here, please share that site with me.

Personally, I have no idea why professionals at the scene, who didn't believe they had any in need
of a helicopter for treatment, would be wasting time acting as if they did. So all I know is that the professionals
in the actual situation did x, while anonymous person on the internet, over 3 years later, claims he is a pro and that he's second-
guessing them. :oops: Is it really rude if I just don't see much there?
Not claiming to be a pro. Just offering words based on opinion. Seems odd that this was not questioned. I'm just inquiring is all. I try and use incidents and view and learn from them in the EMS world. There are many inconsistencies in the entire SH narrative. I just felt I was qualified enough to comment on EMS response. Not trying to set a bad tone. I started thinking more about it based on the increase in helo transports in my system. I noticed an increase in the amount of flights and the effect it was having on saving lives in trauma. Just made me think more about what happened that day, and how it never came to the surface as an issue is all......
 
Just offering words based on opinion.


Herein lies the problem. We are here to critically examine claims of evidence. Not to debate opinion or "offer words".

Seems odd that this was not questioned.

Opinion, not evidence.

I'm just inquiring is all.

No, you're presenting YOUR OPINION as though it is some sort of evidence.

There are many inconsistencies in the entire SH narrative.

If you have any evidence showing these inconsistencies to be the result of something other than what happens naturally in high-stress situations, please start a thread and present it.

I just felt I was qualified enough to comment on EMS response.

EMS response is uniform across all cities, states and counties? This is not to be taken as a slight, but rather a serious question.

I noticed an increase in the amount of flights and the effect it was having on saving lives in trauma. Just made me think more about what happened that day, and how it never came to the surface as an issue is all......

Opinion, backed up by anecdotal evidence.



Also, please compare and contrast these two statements you made in the same post.

Not claiming to be a pro.

and

I just felt I was qualified enough to comment on EMS response.

That's called "Having your cake and eating it too".
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Seems odd that this was not questioned
I dont personally find it odd ,based on timeline of wounded and the fact that this area of Connecticut most typically relies on ambulances. Probably due to cost, but also proximity of several hospitals an ambulances.


Ambulance personnel (approx 10:00am) DID report to dispatch a state trooper was telling them to "send everything".

By 10:15 at latest, Matthew Cassavechia (Reed and Meehan) was on scene and took over (from Cario) as 'highest medical authority on scene. He was told on arrival all the wounded were out of the building and it was an active shooter scene.
Redding ambulance arrived by this time as well. (see Reeds statement and interview of Redding EMT /Redding police)
and Oxford ambulance shortly after followed by Danbury and Southbury ambulances.


cario #00026724 (state trooper and EMT 32 years)
cassavechia # 00002113 (danbury head EMS and tactical paramedic)
meehan #00019275 (danbury paramedic since 1984)
reed #00002358 (danbury tactical paramedic)
https://www.metabunk.org/searchable-state-police-report-and-official-reports-press-releases.t3697/

Ironically, in the aftermath, the complaints from EMS were more that TOO many ambulances arrived on scene without being called specifically.

As far as parents suing because helicopters were not flown in, that is a non issue as the helicopter would not have been there on time to escort any wounded based on the timeline of events.

As far as you not wanting to believe official statements of medical personnel on scene: then provide proof that supports your theories that helicopters are typically called IMMEDIATELY with reports of "shots fired" in schools prior to Dec 2012.

Seems odd that this was not questioned
Now as far as "was this decision questioned after the fact in regards to medical response and changing protocols for future responses"? Yes, IF this was not questioned or is not being questioned by Emergency Personnel in CT and across the country, i would find it very odd. As far as i know the State Police Response report has not been released yet. From what i can tell from Boston, Aurora etc this is the report that examines such issues.


As far as you opinions:
  • Either provide proof you are an EMT or stop "arguing from authority".
  • And whether you are an EMT or not, provide proof that prior to December 2012 the "typical protocol" in areas similar to Connecticut (ie 2 helicopters for whole state, distance of helicopters, availability of hospitals and ambulances) is to immediately call for Life star helicopters as soon as "multiple persons wounded" is heard over dispatch.

Otherwise I am going to relock this thread. Metabunk isn't about opinions, Metabunk is about exposing bunk. It is about backing up your claims with evidence. There are plenty of other websites you can go and talk about how you "feel" helicopters should have been called.
 

MickeyS

Member
All of you appear very defensive in your responses.

I have to say one thing, this is the absolute most civil forum I have EVER visited, and that includes religious forums. There is nothing but patient answering and insistence on backing up claims. Politeness does not equate to rolling over and conceding....just saying
 

huskyfan68

New Member
Sad- You are all very close minded- The anomalies for this event are staggering. The fact that none of you question what really happened is unreal. I will not post anymore since I use my brain to actually question events and not believe what I am fed. Open your eyes
 

MrOctober77

New Member
Sad- You are all very close minded- The anomalies for this event are staggering. The fact that none of you question what really happened is unreal. I will not post anymore since I use my brain to actually question events and not believe what I am fed. Open your eyes

The "anomalies" that you speak of have been explained. It's just that you and other won't accept the answers.
 
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