Debunked: March against Monsanto campaign

[Soulfly]

Try this link

http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/r730300611.html

I had a a feeling the list was very incomplete. Thanks!

 

[david darkeststar]

You are assuming that predatory insect will kill every pest. Even if they did eventually kill every pest, it takes time to do so, in that time yield is lost due to pests who haven't been killed are still eating. GM crops resistant to pests will cause the pest to first stop eating and then kill it. It is effective at killing them more rapidly and thoroughly.

The only people who talk about population control are fearmongers.

My concern is that we have to eat those poisons. Consume some Roundup Ready. See what happens. I know it's a silly suggestion but that is what we are forced to do when the RR is taken up by the plant and we subsequently eat it. By having RR resistant crops they will be sprayed more. Ultimately strains of pests become resistant too. So more RR will be used until we are overwhelmed or the system collapses because the RR no longer has any effect. This is how nature works.
Refute it if you like but look at the resistant strains of bacteria in hospitals. How did they come about? By exactly the same process. Survival of the fittest.

Now to say that the only people who talk about population control are fearmongers is utterly ridiculous [...]. Right here on this thread there are GM advocates who have stated that Bill Gates advocates population control. It's just a fact which Mr. Gates himself has said repeatedly. He is an advocate of vaccines and population control. Which in theory isn't a bad thing depending on how it's done. He suggests that we should control the population through birth control and we should make the people who are alive more healthy with vaccines. This is great in theory. The problems arise when the ingredients in the vaccines have negative effects. For example: mercury derivatives shouldn't be used as preservatives but that should be left for another thread.

 

[david darkeststar]

I would still like to know if you are a farmer or if know know one closely.

It helps to know the depth of your knowledge of the field.

No I'm not a farmer. I'm a landscape gardener. I was taught by a PhD from Bishop Burton Agricultural College in Yorkshire, England.

Sorry if I'm slow to respond but the dyslexia makes me more thorough than fast.

 

[David Fraser]

No I'm not a farmer. I'm a landscape gardener. I was taught by a PhD from Bishop Burton Agricultural College in Yorkshire, England.

Sorry if I'm slow to respond but the dyslexia makes me more thorough than fast.

I know Bishop Burton quite well. I am from Hessle originally but lived in Beverley for a while when I was working at Broadgates. Small world and all

 

[david darkeststar]

Then can you explain what you meant by your comment about Bill Gates and depopulation?

I didn't mention depopulation at all but yes I'll gladly explain.

Here's what I said:
"If GM crops are going to produce more bountyful crops than we could possibly imagine then why is population control on the table?"

Or to put it another way:
Why do we need to control the population when there will allegedly be more food available than we could possibly eat? It was just an aside though, a passing thought.

 

[Mick West]

I know Bishop Burton quite well. I am from Hessle originally but lived in Beverley for a while when I was working at Broadgates. Small world and all

I'm from Bingley in West Yorkshire. Just 60 miles away, but might as well be on the other side of the world in Yorkshire terms

 

[david darkeststar]

I know Bishop Burton quite well. I am from Hessle originally but lived in Beverley for a while when I was working at Broadgates. Small world and all

It is indeed.

 

[david darkeststar]

Processes which evolved to suit conditions prior to the interference from massive numbers of humans.

How is it in keeping with a natural process to release artificially large numbers of ladybirds to deal with large numbers of aphids on large fields of crops which wouldn't exist without unnatural intervention of industrialised methods of food production?

It's a lot more natural than superimposing completely foreign DNA material on our comestibles.

 

[Mick West]

I didn't mention depopulation at all but yes I'll gladly explain.

Here's what I said:
"If GM crops are going to produce more bountyful crops than we could possibly imagine then why is population control on the table?"

Or to put it another way:
Why do we need to control the population when there will allegedly be more food available than we could possibly eat? It was just an aside though, a passing thought.

My mistake, you said "population control".

Population control is on the table because we are not going to magically jump to a state of surplus food for all worldwide overnight. Nor is lack of food the only issue with explosive population growth.

 

[david darkeststar]

I'm from Bingley in West Yorkshire. Just 60 miles away, but might as well be on the other side of the world in Yorkshire terms

At least your not from Lancashire lol

 

[Soulfly]

I didn't mention depopulation at all but yes I'll gladly explain.

Here's what I said:
"If GM crops are going to produce more bountyful crops than we could possibly imagine then why is population control on the table?"

Or to put it another way:
Why do we need to control the population when there will allegedly be more food available than we could possibly eat? It was just an aside though, a passing thought.

I'm thoroughly confused! You start with bees, then Bill Gates wants less people, then lady bugs. Lets go back to your first post.
Here is what a bee biologist, not just a bee keeper, thinks about GMOs

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/sic...llapse-revisited-genetically-modified-plants/

I did also make a mistake, though I said population control when I should have said depopulation in response to Trigger Hippie.

I believe Bill Gates advocates reducing the population growth rate but some people take that to mean he advocates depopulation.

 

[David Fraser]

It's a lot more natural than superimposing completely foreign DNA material on our comestibles.

I do concede your issue with RR Bt crops and if you read my posts as a generalisation I am against such crops and chemicals. However I think consideration should be given to adaptations that may infer some resilience to pests. There is also a side issue of GM plants been design for medical applications or even as fuel sources.

 

[Trigger Hippie]

I did also make a mistake, though I said population control when I should have said depopulation in response to Trigger Hippie.

Now I'm confused. When did you reply to me?

 

[Trigger Hippie]

He is an advocate of vaccines and population control. He suggests that we should control the population through birth control and we should make the people who are alive more healthy with vaccines.

He also claims that reducing infant mortality rates through vaccinations will reduce population growth rates. Once more infants begin surviving, families begin having fewer children because they anticipate their children living to adulthood.

Birth control, vaccination programs and the reduction of infant mortality rates... what's the problem?

 

[Soulfly]

Now I'm confused. When did you reply to me?

Let me make this more confusing. I didn't directly reply to you, was just using what you said to say it is a fearmonger tactic to twist the words. I think it has been established that David Darkstar didn't say depopulation.

 

[Soulfly]

I think the claim that all natural farming is better for the environment is not so cut and dry. Organic farming methods require poo, animals make poo, you need land for animals. I'm not sure using more land to produce food is that answer.

There needs to be a balanced farming practice.

 

[david darkeststar]

My mistake, you said "population control".

Population control is on the table because we are not going to magically jump to a state of surplus food for all worldwide overnight. Nor is lack of food the only issue with explosive population growth.

No worries.

When people are in a position to eat so much that they have to have their houses disassembled because they won't fit through the door and cranes to move them around to take them to veterinary hospitals because they won't fit in standard human sized machines then I think it's quite fair to suggest that there is already a surplus wouldn't you?
Now I agree, that isn't the only issue here. Space is a factor but right now in this epoch we have the knowledge and the technology to transform deserts into farmland if we want to.
We could live in the deserts and create the infrastructure to live their quite comfortably, leaving arable land free to produce all the food we need. I know I'm being impractical for this era but it wouldn't be technologically difficult. We've already done it in some places have we not?

 

[david darkeststar]

I think the claim that all natural farming is better for the environment is not so cut and dry. Organic farming methods require poo, animals make poo, you need land for animals. I'm not sure using more land to produce food is that answer.

There needs to be a balanced farming practice.

I don't know if you have noticed but humans are animals and we defaecate regularly.

 

[David Fraser]

I think the claim that all natural farming is better for the environment is not so cut and dry. Organic farming methods require poo, animals make poo, you need land for animals. I'm not sure using more land to produce food is that answer.

There needs to be a balanced farming practice.

We need to seriouslylook at sustainability as well. In the UK we import about a third of our food. Surely it makes environmental sense to source our food at home?

 

[Trigger Hippie]

Let me make this more confusing. I didn't directly reply to you, was just using what you said to say it is a fearmonger tactic to twist the words. I think it has been established that David Darkstar didn't say depopulation.

Agreed.

I found his "Population control of humans. Courtesy of Bill Gates et al." statement rather vague and wanted to see if he was part of the Bill Gates = eugenics crowd.

 

[Mick West]

We need to seriouslylook at sustainability as well. In the UK we import about a third of our food. Surely it makes environmental sense to source our food at home?

There's some interesting math on that, like it being less resource intensive to ship over containers of lamb to the UK from NZ than to grow them on small local farms, with the economies of scale. If I remember correctly.

 

[Soulfly]

We need to seriouslylook at sustainability as well. In the UK we import about a third of our food. Surely it makes environmental sense to source our food at home?

I'm all for that, get your own damn food! lol j/k Sustainability if key! I think scientific intervention, in all farming types is key.

 

[Trigger Hippie]

No worries.

When people are in a position to eat so much that they have to have their houses disassembled because they won't fit through the door and cranes to move them around to take them to veterinary hospitals because they won't fit in standard human sized machines then I think it's quite fair to suggest that there is already a surplus wouldn't you?

No. I would not.



If I'm not mistaken, metabolism and genetic factors play an important role in determining morbid obesity.

 

[Soulfly]

Agreed.

I found his "Population control of humans. Courtesy of Bill Gates et al." statement rather vague and wanted to see if he was part of the Bill Gates = eugenics crowd.

I think it was implied.

 

[Soulfly]

I don't know if you have noticed but humans are animals and we defaecate regularly.

I'm not sure what this is getting at. You suggesting we use human poo to fertilize our crops?
Food follows the law of supply and demand, the more you make the cheaper it is.

 

[david darkeststar]

I'm thoroughly confused! You start with bees, then Bill Gates wants less people, then lady bugs. Lets go back to your first post.
Here is what a bee biologist, not just a bee keeper, thinks about GMOs

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/sic...llapse-revisited-genetically-modified-plants/

I did also make a mistake, though I said population control when I should have said depopulation in response to Trigger Hippie.

lol I'm trying to stay on topic but conversation travels like a river doesn't it?

 

[Soulfly]

lol I'm trying to stay on topic but conversation travels like a river doesn't it?

That is why I posted the link to the bee biologist page.

 

[David Fraser]

There's some interesting math on that, like it being less resource intensive to ship over containers of lamb to the UK from NZ than to grow them on small local farms, with the economies of scale. If I remember correctly.

That's quite interesting and does make sense. I know a few studies have been done into the carbon footprint of a few foods, but mainly vegetables from Africa.

 

[david darkeststar]

I'm not sure what this is getting at. You suggesting we use human poo to fertilize our crops?
Food follows the law of supply and demand, the more you make the cheaper it is.

It's shit isn't it? You already know what soil is made from.
Urine too can be dehydrated and used as fertilizer. A ready source of nitrogen.
Are we are so desensitized to the nature of the world, so squeamish of our own physical processes?
Humans are ridiculous.

 

[Cairenn]

I saw one where wine from California had a higher carbon footprint on the east coast of the US, than wine from France did.

Containers and container ships make shipping cheap and very efficient.

 

[David Fraser]

It's shit isn't it? You already know what soil is made from.
Urine too can be dehydrated and used as fertilizer. A ready source of nitrogen.
Are we are so desensitized to the nature of the world, so squeamish of our own physical processes?
Humans are ridiculous.

I may be wrong but are there not some controls on using human shit as fertiliser? I often work at music festivals with composting toilets and I am sure it is only used on flowers etc. I looked into Solar Aquatics wastewater treatment a few years back and there seemed to be similar restrictions. Strange we can use cow shit but not mine, and I am full of that

 

[Soulfly]

I may be wrong but are there not some controls on using human shit as fertiliser? I often work at music festivals with composting toilets and I am sure it is only used on flowers etc. I looked into Solar Aquatics wastewater treatment a few years back and there seemed to be similar restrictions. Strange we can use cow shit but not mine, and I am full of that

I think it all has to do with what the poo is being used for. I think it has to be made safe before being used on food crops. On such a large scale it would be costly. Bad sanitation can lead to disease.

 

[Cairenn]

I believe that there is some type of a problem using the feces of any predator species. I do not know why, but when I had my kennel, I was told to not use their droppings on any food crop. My thought is diseases or parasites that can be transferred that way.

 

[Soulfly]

Also have to take into account that, say cows digest food differently and don't digest grass fully, leaving lot more nutrients for plants and soil.

 

[David Fraser]

I think it all has to do with what the poo is being used for. I think it has to be made safe before being used on food crops. On such a large scale it would be costly. Bad sanitation can lead to disease.

At one place I work at is all composting toilets for over 10000 punters. That is a lot of shit over a week. The toilet works at a height and after a crap you out a few scoops of wood shaving/sawdust down. The idea is to keep it dry and you have to pee elsewhere and the pee is used for nitrates.

 

[david darkeststar]

No. I would not.



If I'm not mistaken, metabolism and genetic factors play an important role in determining morbid obesity.

I don't see any morbidly obese people in that photograph. So there is a genetic propensity where if we eat too much we get fat? Well I never.
We know full well that for the vast majority, those factors you mentioned only effect those with food to spare. [...]

The first link is to a grotesque feeder website. The second is to a Harvard University page.
http://www.experienceproject.com/groups/Want-To-Be-Fed-Until-I-Am-Too-Fat-To-Walk/310909
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/obesity-prevention-source/obesity-causes/genes-and-obesity/

 

[david darkeststar]

I believe that there is some type of a problem using the feces of any predator species. I do not know why, but when I had my kennel, I was told to not use their droppings on any food crop. My thought is diseases or parasites that can be transferred that way.

You are right, when it's fresh (if that is an appropriate word) human faeces carries harmful bacteria but when allowed to decompose fully it is soil. Like any other soil on the planet. Like every other soil on the planet.

 

[david darkeststar]

I may be wrong but are there not some controls on using human shit as fertiliser? I often work at music festivals with composting toilets and I am sure it is only used on flowers etc. I looked into Solar Aquatics wastewater treatment a few years back and there seemed to be similar restrictions. Strange we can use cow shit but not mine, and I am full of that

There are many controls in place but any bacteria are dealt with by the decomposition process. In fact many countries process their night soil in this way. The greatest risk from it is contaminating the water supply before the decomposition process is completed which to be thorough should be at least a year maybe two.

 

[Pete Tar]

Is Monsanto the only company that has GM crops on the market? Everyone sure acts like it.

 

[Cairenn]

They aren't some have been developed by non profit groups. Golden rice is one example that comes to mind quickly.

Really doubt that there would be enough fertilizer from all the humans and domestic animals to provide enough fertilizer for crops to feed everyone.

Very few folks get so heavy they they cannot get through doors. Even most morbidly 'obese' folks are active and many are HEALTHY. It depends on the person.