Debunked: March against Monsanto campaign

Cairenn

Senior Member.
GM crops are NOT the only patented seeds. Her is some history of seed patents.


http://cookingupastory.com/patent-law-how-patents-grew-over-time-to-include-living-organisms
 

Grieves

Senior Member
I debunked that patents on plants is nothing new. I think that if patents on plants were going to be bad it would have already showed. If you want to claim Mansanto's contracts are somehow going to hurt farmers or whatever else then you still need to provide evidence of this and not just speculation.
First plant patent issued in 1930
lol, man, an article I provided which I urged you to read posts and posts back covered all that, detailing the history of plant-patents pretty extensively, and how they've evolved. And here was me hoping you were actually considering what I presented to a small extent.

I'm done debating with you, your attempts to bait me into a pointless debate with you is over.
Suppose I should be grateful then. That brick wall was starting to bruise my head.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
Some of us feel that folks should be PAID for the work they do. Some seem to want to let others do the work, pay them a pittance and then take that work and make money with it.

I believe that even universities are now patenting any seeds they develop. Then they will license that patent to a seed company
 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
Some of us feel that folks should be PAID for the work they do. Some seem to want to let others do the work, pay them a pittance and then take that work and make money with it.

I believe that even universities are now patenting any seeds they develop. Then they will license that patent to a seed company
Looks like universities have a lot to gain even if they don't patent stuff, at the very least they get funding.
http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/chicago/news.aspx?id=181105
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
If the contracts were the problem then they would be supporting golden rice.

But in spite of NO real association with Monsanto and that it will be royalty free, and that it will save lives, it is still being branded as a 'Frankenfood' by the anti GM crowd.

I love how folks change their story. You show them that GM is safe, then its' the contracts and Monsanto wanting to 'control the world's food supply'.
 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
If the contracts were the problem then they would be supporting golden rice.

But in spite of NO real association with Monsanto and that it will be royalty free, and that it will save lives, it is still being branded as a 'Frankenfood' by the anti GM crowd.

I love how folks change their story. You show them that GM is safe, then its' the contracts and Monsanto wanting to 'control the world's food supply'.
I love how they call them frankenfood, when conventional hybrid methods still manipulate the genome of plants, except conventional methods manipulate the entire genome, often times with some very frankenfood sounding ways.
http://www.agriquest.info/index.php/methods-for-hybrid-seed-produciton

And to the last part, That is what I want to know. When did Mansanto come into the Anti-GMO scene, is there some correlation with new data being released at the time of Mansanto entering that debunked their unhealthy claims?
 

Grieves

Senior Member
And to the last part, That is what I want to know. When did Mansanto come into the Anti-GMO scene, is there some correlation with new data being released at the time of Mansanto entering that debunked their unhealthy claims?
Monsanto is the leading name in GMO agribusiness, and more or less invented the current model, so of course their name is intrinsic with most discussions on the issue. There are folks on the more Alex Jonesey side of things who are anti-GMO and don't even know what/who Monsanto is.
 

Critical Thinker

Senior Member.
The chemtrail crowd will be recruiting at LA protest against Monsanto..... capitalizing on the fact that belief on one conspiracy makes one more likely to believe in other conspiracies.


http://losangelesskywatch.org/event/la-skywatch-takes-action-against-monsanto-this-saturday


 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
The chemtrail crowd will be recruiting at LA protest against Monsanto..... capitalizing on the fact that belief on one conspiracy makes one more likely to believe in other conspiracies.


http://losangelesskywatch.org/event/la-skywatch-takes-action-against-monsanto-this-saturday


Why do I get the feeling that process of connecting the dots looks something like John Madden connecting the Xs and Ox to say "HI Mom"?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Bruce Douglas has a frankly ridiculous theory based on looking at satellite images, pointing to normal weather cell formations, or even just clouds, and claiming they are "aerosol explosions".



He has this theory because there are almost no contrails over Hawaii.
 

david darkeststar

New Member
It seems the only folks really concerned about GM crops effects on bees, are folks that don't keep bees.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kxn56Dta6Q

Is that how it seems to you?

Cairenn

The linked Youtube video show a demonstration made by professional bee keepers which contradicts the suggestion made which was that "It seems the only folks really concerned about GM crops effects on bees, are folks that don't keep bees"
 
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david darkeststar

New Member
I totally agree. We have a real dilemma in the UK as for years the government has provided grants for farmers to go organic. Off the top of my head I would say that organic farms have increased 4 or 5 fold in the past 20 years but the yields they produce are 30 or 40% less. Now given that at best we can produce around 60% of our own food organic appears not to give us food security (off topic but post WWII we had rationing for some products into the '50's, so my parents would moan about). GM would give us the option of a greater self reliance but people are really resistant. Here is a link for the latest, public funded trial for a GM wheat crop that would be resistant to aphids (wheat is our main crop, and the main user of pesticides). Note the comment from someone in the US at the bottom. http://www.rothamsted.ac.uk/Content.php?Section=AphidWheat

Regarding your comment about killing aphids with a GM wheat crop.
Would it not make more sense to set up an industry which breeds ladybirds for that?
In fact they already have, you personally can purchase predatory insects online but we would apparently rather GM everything instead.
 
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David Fraser

Senior Member.
@ Biggerdave

Regarding your comment about killing aphids with a GM wheat crop.
Would it not make more sense to set up an industry which breeds ladybirds for that?
In fact they already have, you personally can purchase predatory insects online but we would apparently rather GM everything instead.

Increasing the predator population is not always a good thing. I remember the hot summer of 1976 and there was quite literally a plague of ladybirds. After they finished off the aphids they took to biting people. Afterwards there seemed to be a big increase in the blackbird population in my area.
 
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Soulfly

Banned
Banned
@ Biggerdave

Regarding your comment about killing aphids with a GM wheat crop.
Would it not make more sense to set up an industry which breeds ladybirds for that?
In fact they already have, you personally can purchase predatory insects online but we would apparently rather GM everything instead.
Farmers need to take a lot of things into account. The extra cost of buying GM seeds that will resist pests or the cost of buying predatory insects? How much extra time farmers need to spend using insects to control pests. Also have to take into account what will be more effective. If the lady bugs don't help then the farmers yield can be affected and they are out more money.
 
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david darkeststar

New Member
Increasing the predator population is not always a good thing. I remember the hot summer of 1976 and there was quite literally a plague of ladybirds. After they finished off the aphids they took to biting people. Afterwards there seemed to be a big increase in the blackbird population in my area.

Nature deals with the situation of population explosions quite adequately. When the food source runs out the organisms numbers drop back to a level which can be sustained.
In fact it's that very argument which companies are using to convince us that GM's are a good thing because they say that the only way we will be able to sustain our own population is to increase the food yield via genetic manipulation.
I would suggest that it is better to use predators because the only affect that a ladybird will have on a plant is to kill the aphids and allow it to thrive, thus increasing it's yield because it isn't having it's sap stolen.
Incidentally I remember 1976 very well. The best summer ever. I don't remember being bitten by ladybirds though and I was always outside.

Another thought. If GM crops are going to produce more bountyful crops than we could possibly imagine then why is population control on the table?
 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
Nature deals with the situation of population explosions quite adequately. When the food source runs out the organisms numbers drop back to a level which can be sustained.
In fact it's that very argument which companies are using to convince us that GM's are a good thing because they say that the only way we will be able to sustain our own population is to increase the food yield via genetic manipulation.
I would suggest that it is better to use predators because the only affect that a ladybird will have on a plant is to kill the aphids and allow it to thrive, thus increasing it's yield because it isn't having it's sap stolen.
Incidentally I remember 1976 very well. The best summer ever. I don't remember being bitten by ladybirds though and I was always outside.

Another thought. If GM crops are going to produce more bountyful crops than we could possibly imagine then why is population control on the table?

You are assuming that predatory insect will kill every pest. Even if they did eventually kill every pest, it takes time to do so, in that time yield is lost due to pests who haven't been killed are still eating. GM crops resistant to pests will cause the pest to first stop eating and then kill it. It is effective at killing them more rapidly and thoroughly.

The only people who talk about population control are fearmongers.
 

david darkeststar

New Member
Farmers need to take a lot of things into account. The extra cost of buying GM seeds that will resist pests or the cost of buying predatory insects? How much extra time farmers need to spend using insects to control pests. Also have to take into account what will be more effective. If the lady bugs don't help then the farmers yield can be affected and they are out more money.

If there is a cost to combat pests then that cost as you said is incurred regardless of which route you take. I personally would rather choose the path which will have the least impact.
If there are aphids and ladybirds then there won't be aphids around for long will there? Eating aphids is what ladybirds do. When there are no aphids left the ladybirds will move on. Simple as that.
The cost in time would be at worst no different either way. Whether it's sprays and chemicals or predatory insects someone has to go put them where they think they need to be don't they?
We learn by experience so the use of predators would improve year on year if we adopted it full time. Any mistakes would of course be costly but unlike GMO's the price for our mistakes using predators would be obvious to this generation not the next.
 

Trigger Hippie

Senior Member.
Increasing the predator population is not always a good thing. I remember the hot summer of 1976 and there was quite literally a plague of ladybirds. After they finished off the aphids they took to biting people.

We should design genetically modified ladybugs that don't bite people after they finish decimating the aphid population.:)
 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
If there is a cost to combat pests then that cost as you said is incurred regardless of which route you take. I personally would rather choose the path which will have the least impact.
If there are aphids and ladybirds then there won't be aphids around for long will there? Eating aphids is what ladybirds do. When there are no aphids left the ladybirds will move on. Simple as that.
The cost in time would be at worst no different either way. Whether it's sprays and chemicals or predatory insects someone has to go put them where they think they need to be don't they?
We learn by experience so the use of predators would improve year on year if we adopted it full time. Any mistakes would of course be costly but unlike GMO's the price for our mistakes using predators would be obvious to this generation not the next.
By planting pests resistant crops the farmer spends less time worrying about pests. He spends less time spraying pesticides. He doesn't need to spend as much time to check if he has pests, to put more lady bugs out, all of those take fuel and time. If it were so simple then that is what farmers would be doing it. Organic farmers use Bt as pesticide too.
Lady bugs are not a simple fix to a very complex process.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
A you tube of a single protest is not evidence for anything other than that group of protestors.

CDC is a problem in countries where there are NOT and have never been any GM crops. It is rarely a problem in wild hives or even urban hives--urban hives are exposed to a lot of chemicals.

I am sure that some pesticides, if used wrong can kill bees. But not GM crops.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
David are you a farmer? or do you have close friends or family that are? If so, what type of crops and acreage?

What works fine on a small truck garden doesn't work as well in huge fields.
 

david darkeststar

New Member
By planting pests resistant crops the farmer spends less time worrying about pests. He spends less time spraying pesticides. He doesn't need to spend as much time to check if he has pests, to put more lady bugs out, all of those take fuel and time. If it were so simple then that is what farmers would be doing it. Organic farmers use Bt as pesticide too.
Lady bugs are not a simple fix to a very complex process.

Bacillus thuringiensis? A bug. Isn't that essentially the same technique that I'm advocating? Using natural processes which are tried and tested by billions of years of evolution. Using insect predators might be a chore but it works and the consequences are no risk to anyone except the aphids. You just can't put a patent on it. Yet.
All your objections are based fundamentally on money aren't they? Money being the fundamental problem. Unless you have enough of it of course and who in the world has enough? You know the answer to that. It isn't us is it?
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
There seem to be two opposed claims - one that GM crops result in more spraying of pesticide as the farmer doesn't have to worry about the crop being poisoned so can be more indiscriminate with the pesticide use - and the other is that GM crops need to be sprayed less as they discourage pests in the first place. Are there two different types that people are talking about - pesticide resistant GM crops and pest resistant GM crops?
Can this issue be clarified?
 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
Bacillus thuringiensis? A bug. Isn't that essentially the same technique that I'm advocating? Using natural processes which are tried and tested by billions of years of evolution. Using insect predators might be a chore but it works and the consequences are no risk to anyone except the aphids. You just can't put a patent on it. Yet.
All your objections are based fundamentally on money aren't they? Money being the fundamental problem. Unless you have enough of it of course and who in the world has enough? You know the answer to that. It isn't us is it?
What are you advocating exactly? Could you be specific so we can try and address your concerns.
Are you suggesting that a farmer shouldn't invest his money wisely so that he can make a profit for his family? 98% of farms in America are family onwned.
http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/eib-economic-information-bulletin/eib24.aspx#.UZ_0pUCTjAo
 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
There seem to be two opposed claims - one that GM crops result in more spraying of pesticide as the farmer doesn't have to worry about the crop being poisoned so can be more indiscriminate with the pesticide use - and the other is that GM crops need to be sprayed less as they discourage pests in the first place. Are there two different types that people are talking about - pesticide resistant GM crops and pest resistant GM crops?
Can this issue be clarified?
There are pests resistant Bt crops that typically need no or very little pesticide spraying. Then there is RR crops that are resistant to roundup herbicide. The later sprays herbicide that the crop is resistant to. A from of indiscriminate spraying. I believe pesticides are still sprayed for the RR crops. Not sure if there are any RR Bt crops. Both can save farmers time and fuel.
 

david darkeststar

New Member
I believe Bill Gates advocates reducing the population growth rate but some people take that to mean he advocates depopulation.

Yes, some people do twist words don't they but that isn't what I said is it? In fact I sometimes have a tendency to castigate people for going down that road myself. As we should. I try to be careful with my words and make sure that I deal with factual information. The truth shall set yee free and all that.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Yes, some people do twist words don't they but that isn't what I said is it? In fact I sometimes have a tendency to castigate people for going down that road myself. As we should. I try to be careful with my words and make sure that I deal with factual information. The truth shall set yee free and all that.

Then can you explain what you meant by your comment about Bill Gates and depopulation?
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
I would still like to know if you are a farmer or if know know one closely.

It helps to know the depth of your knowledge of the field.
 

HappyMonday

Moderator
Bacillus thuringiensis? A bug. Isn't that essentially the same technique that I'm advocating? Using natural processes which are tried and tested by billions of years of evolution.

Processes which evolved to suit conditions prior to the interference from massive numbers of humans.

How is it in keeping with a natural process to release artificially large numbers of ladybirds to deal with large numbers of aphids on large fields of crops which wouldn't exist without unnatural intervention of industrialised methods of food production?
 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
Found this on aphids. Doesn't say anything about damage to wheat, or even corn or soy. I think there are GM sugar beets. Might not be a very thorough list either.
http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7404.html#DAMAGE

Didn't pay attention to the pretty pictures at first. There seems to be a Russian wheat aphid.
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
Found this on aphids. Doesn't say anything about damage to wheat, or even corn or soy. I think there are GM sugar beets. Might not be a very thorough list either.
http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7404.html#DAMAGE

Didn't pay attention to the pretty pictures at first. There seems to be a Russian wheat aphid.

Try this link :)

http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/r730300611.html
 
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