Debunked: March against Monsanto campaign

Cairenn

Senior Member.
They may produce more, but a lot of them require less pesticides or weed killer application. That reduces the cost to the farmer and in turn that reduces the cost we pay at the store. Some of them have better storage or shipping qualities, again, that reduces the cost.

If raising them did not help the farmer, and btw, most farms in the US are still family owned, the farmer would chose a cheaper seed.

What the anti GM crowd ignores is that reducing the need to clear more land is a win for the environment.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
My guess is she's saying the resistant crops produce more.

That's been debunked.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/po...-feed-09-04-16
Content from external source:

A study from the Union of Concerned Scientists shows that genetically engineered crops do not produce larger harvests. Crop yield increases in recent years have almost entirely been due to improved farming or traditional plant breeding, despite more than 3,000 field trials of GM crops.

Of course, farmers have typically planted, say, GM corn, because it can tolerate high doses of weed-killer. And the Biotechnology Industry Organization argues that GM crops can boost yields in developing countries where there are limited resources for pesticides.

But it appears that, to date, traditional plant breeding boosts crop yields better than genetic modification. Those old farmers were on to something.

http://web.mit.edu/demoscience/Monsanto/impact.html
Content from external source:

. A press release from the New Soil Association released in April, 2008 shows that genetically modified crops do not result in higher yields than non-genetically modified crops. Realistically, however, most genetically modified crops (including Roundup Ready) are developed to be pesticide and herbicide resistant, rather than directly increase the yield of a given crop.

http://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/publi/gmo/fullrep/ch3.htm

 
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Cairenn

Senior Member.
Yield is not the only factor. The cost of PRODUCING the crop is important.

If use Sterling silver earwires for my earrings, the wires will cost me around $1.50 - $2.00 a pair. If I can use titaninum wires that cost me .75 a pair, then changes either the price I charge or my profit on them.

i still ask, if GM crops were not helping farmers, they would make other choices. Farmers and/or farm managers look at many factors in deciding what crops to plant and what varieties of those crops.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Recent study (but based on 2005 data) shows Bt corn yields and profits more, but not a lot:

http://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves...ncreases-yields-and-profits.aspx#.UaFd7iuwxd4

From Oxy's last link:
http://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/publi/gmo/fullrep/ch3.htm
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
..t's usually tradition to check any and all information using more than one source isn't it?...

I did find another article today addressing the overstatement and misrepresentation around the bill which gives another example of what it designed to address.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonenti...behind-the-so-called-monsanto-protection-act/
 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
I haven't heard any claims that GM crops are 'currently' boosting yield, ie a GM plant grows more than a conventional hybrid. That is if you plant an equal acreage of 2 seeds, one GM one conventional hybrid, they will have the same yield but the GM crop has 'the potential' to reduce loss, from insects, weeds and drought, which in effect increases a farmers over all yield. Over all across the board, yields are improving for various reasons in each type of farming method,and there is room for more improvement. Conventional farming holds the biggest percentage in the over all picture, its its easy to look at yields being boosted and see conventional has the largest yield increase.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
There was a thread about the french GMO study wasn't there? I searched but couldn't find it. Anyway, here is a guy criticising the criticism of that... (it is from the author of the original study's website)
http://gmoseralini.org/french-academy-of-sciences-the-gmo-scandal/

Also this apparently just happened...
The article, which is anti GMO, summarises the current situation of GMOs thusly...
http://www.blacklistednews.com/GMO_...destroy_trial_vineyard/26148/0/38/38/Y/M.html
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Yield is not the only factor. The cost of PRODUCING the crop is important.

If use Sterling silver earwires for my earrings, the wires will cost me around $1.50 - $2.00 a pair. If I can use titaninum wires that cost me .75 a pair, then changes either the price I charge or my profit on them.

Seems a bit of a weird business model to me. Your profit margins are entirely up to you to set, (within what the market will stand), but if you are selling titanium earrings as silver that sounds dishonest, (which I am sure you are not), so why make the comparison.

i still ask, if GM crops were not helping farmers, they would make other choices. Farmers and/or farm managers look at many factors in deciding what crops to plant and what varieties of those crops.

You may be better employed asking why, 'if GMO food is so wanted and loved and healthy and cheap', they have just blocked the bill compelling them to label foods containing GMO products?

Monsanto is using bully boy tactics and it is well known what they are up to and why.
 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
There was a thread about the french GMO study wasn't there? I searched but couldn't find it. Anyway, here is a guy criticising the criticism of that... (it is from the author of the original study's website)
This I believe is the main criticism in the study. What the writer fails to realize is if you are going to be testing for cancer, you probably shouldn't use rats that get tumors a high percentage of the time (I believe like 90%) no matter what you feed them. They are used in industries to test on, I believe they are even used in cancer research, when the cause of a certain type of caner are to be known, so there is a high likely hood the rat will develop the cancer being tested. They are not used to test for new ways of getting cancer because of the high likely hood of tumors. If you want to know if something is going to make a rat get cancer you want a rat that is as healthy a rat as possible.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
This I believe is the main criticism in the study. What the writer fails to realize is if you are going to be testing for cancer, you probably shouldn't use rats that get tumors a high percentage of the time (I believe like 90%) no matter what you feed them. They are used in industries to test on, I believe they are even used in cancer research, when the cause of a certain type of caner are to be known, so there is a high likely hood the rat will develop the cancer being tested. They are not used to test for new ways of getting cancer because of the high likely hood of tumors. If you want to know if something is going to make a rat get cancer you want a rat that is as healthy a rat as possible.

See discussion here on: https://www.metabunk.org/posts/21583
 
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Cairenn

Senior Member.
Where did I say I sold them as sterling? I don't. My big concern is that ladies not have allergy problems from my jewelry. That means that I am limited on my earwires. I can use sterling, but some folks are allergic to it, I am. I can use gold filled or 14 caret gold, most can wear both, but there are some that can't wear gold filled, and a few that can't wear 14 carat gold. Fine silver is anothe option. None of those are economical for earrings that sell for $20 and under. I could use copper, but I object since it is biologically active, or 'surgical steel' (the cheapest option)-but since 95% of those wires come from China, there are 'bad' batches that are contaminated with nickle. I can buy surgical steel that meets EU standards, (every batch has to be tested), they are over twice the cost of the cheaper ones or titanium which is a little more expensive than the good (US made) surgical steel ones or I can use niobium (about the same cost as the sterling ones but they come in colors).

I have a line of $10 earrings made from guitar picks. I will often have 50 pairs of these on display and the same amount in back stock. If I have to have $200 in just the cost of the earwires tied up, that hurts me. If I only had 10 pr of earrings, the base cost would not be as big an issue.

It is called economies of scale. Remember when glide on deoderants came in a box? It was Wal Mart that demanded that that stop. The fraction of a cent that they could save on packaging was important to them. Concentrated detergents is another thing that Wal Mart has demanded. More concentrated, less shelf room needed and shipping costs are reduced.
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
I haven't heard any claims that GM crops are 'currently' boosting yield, ie a GM plant grows more than a conventional hybrid. That is if you plant an equal acreage of 2 seeds, one GM one conventional hybrid, they will have the same yield but the GM crop has 'the potential' to reduce loss, from insects, weeds and drought, which in effect increases a farmers over all yield. Over all across the board, yields are improving for various reasons in each type of farming method,and there is room for more improvement. Conventional farming holds the biggest percentage in the over all picture, its its easy to look at yields being boosted and see conventional has the largest yield increase.


Perhaps I used the wrong word. I was referring to being resistant to disease or pests. Thereby producing more. Isn't that one of the points of GMO? Resistance?
 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
Perhaps I used the wrong word. I was referring to being resistant to disease or pests. Thereby producing more. Isn't that one of the points of GMO? Resistance?
Exactly, I wasn't trying to correct anyone, just pointing out what you just did.
 

Critical Thinker

Senior Member.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/collideascape/?p=11271#.UaIZVUDVB_k

The Cartoonish March Against Monsanto
 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
It's no wonder Mansanto makes their farmers sign a contract, with all the people out to get them they have to protect themselves against scrupulous people. I just wonder how long before there is a defamation suit.
 

Trigger Hippie

Senior Member.
It's no wonder Mansanto makes their farmers sign a contract, with all the people out to get them they have to protect themselves against scrupulous people. I just wonder how long before there is a defamation suit.

Related to your point...

They claim to invest over $2.6 million per day to develop and bring new products to market.
More than 275,000 farmers a year (out of 2.5 million total) buy Monsanto seed in the United States.
Monsanto filed 145 lawsuits since 1997 in the United States against farmers under contract. (no idea how many lawsuits against farmer who are not their customers)
To date, only 9 cases have gone through full trial.

http://www.monsanto.com/newsviews/Pages/why-does-monsanto-sue-farmers-who-save-seeds.aspx
 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
Related to your point...

They claim to invest over $2.6 million per day to develop and bring new products to market.
More than 275,000 farmers a year (out of 2.5 million total) buy Monsanto seed in the United States.
Monsanto filed 145 lawsuits since 1997 in the United States against farmers under contract. (no idea how many lawsuits against farmer who are not their customers)
To date, only 9 cases have gone through full trial.

http://www.monsanto.com/newsviews/Pages/why-does-monsanto-sue-farmers-who-save-seeds.aspx
This goes into some detail about specific cases.
http://www.monsanto.com/food-inc/Pages/seed-saving-and-legal-activities.aspx
 

Critical Thinker

Senior Member.
https://www.facebook.com/ExposingTheTruth/posts/465464413514460

" six-month study by AgriSearch, an on-campus research arm of Dalhousie University, has shown that genetically modified (GM) cucumbers grown under license to Monsanto Inc. result in serious side effects including total groin hair loss and chafing in "sensitive areas", leading to the immediate and total ban of sales of all that company's crop and subsequent dill pickles."

Yikes!! A satirical 'news story' is being reposted by the conspiracy crowd..... I am amused.

Cuccumber.JPG




http://earthfirstnews.wordpress.com...l-baldness-immediately-banned-in-nova-scotia/
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
...
More than 275,000 farmers a year (out of 2.5 million total) buy Monsanto seed in the United States.
...

I'm trying to confirm that Monsanto has a monopoly - that quote doesn't make it seem like it does.
It does seem to have a GMO monopoly.

monsanto-corporations-global-vegetable-seed-market-share_1075.jpg
(2005)
monsanto-share-gm_h328.gif
(not sure of year)
Some of the claimed monopoly issues -
http://www.gmeducation.org/latest-news/p207220-the monsanto monopoly.html
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
If you harvest all of your crop, you will not have "residual crops in their fields'. Of course if you cheat and save seed, you will.
 
J

Joe

Guest
They may produce more, but a lot of them require less pesticides or weed killer application. That reduces the cost to the farmer and in turn that reduces the cost we pay at the store. Some of them have better storage or shipping qualities, again, that reduces the cost.

If raising them did not help the farmer, and btw, most farms in the US are still family owned, the farmer would chose a cheaper seed.

What the anti GM crowd ignores is that reducing the need to clear more land is a win for the environment.
A win win for the environment the hell with the long term effects on people of eating GMO which is still not known .
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
They may produce more, but a lot of them require less pesticides or weed killer application. That reduces the cost to the farmer and in turn that reduces the cost we pay at the store. Some of them have better storage or shipping qualities, again, that reduces the cost.

If raising them did not help the farmer, and btw, most farms in the US are still family owned, the farmer would chose a cheaper seed.

What the anti GM crowd ignores is that reducing the need to clear more land is a win for the environment.

What like stuffing ever more chickens into smaller and smaller spaces... Why leave it there... pigs, sheep, cows whatever. Sure the 'scientists' lol, will say the 'food' is 'safe'.

You eat it if you want but it's not for me.

If it's so good why not market it as GMO... why hide the crap that they are forcing down peoples throats by denying them the opportunity to see what it is and refusing to buy it? I mean who on earth do we think we are that we should have a choice? How dare people object to Soylent Green.

Brainless Feetless Chicken Growing

http://farmwars.info/?p=7897
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_Animal_Feeding_Operation

In the terminology of the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), a Concentrated Animal Feeding Operation (CAFO) is an animal agricultural facility that has a potential pollution profile. Specifically, the EPA defines a CAFO as an animal feeding operation (AFO) that (a) confines animals for more than 45 days during a growing season, (b) in an area that does not produce vegetation, and (c) meets certain size thresholds. The EPA's definition of the term "captures key elements of the transformations" observed in the animal agriculture sector over the course of the 20th century: "a production process that concentrates large numbers of animals in relatively small and confined places, and that substitutes structures and equipment (for feeding, temperature controls, and manure management) for land and labor."[1]







http://practicingresurrection.wordpress.com/2011/09/11/chicken-insanity/

Yum Yum... What a Brave New World Order.
 
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JRBids

Senior Member.
Here is an article about the protests:

http://badskeptic.com/?p=490




Brainless Feetless Chicken Growing

Yikes.

I know this if off topic, but I live near the only duck farm left on Long Island. One farm used to raise 250,000 a year. We were famous for our Peking Duck:
http://www.longislandgenealogy.com/ducks.html

One day I was riding my bike and I ended up behind the duck farm and peeked over the fence. I saw all these little duck heads peeking back at me through an open door. I felt terrible. However I did have curried LI Duck the other night for dinner. It was gooooood.
 
J

Joe

Guest
Are the long term effects of any food known?
Monsanto invented Agent Orange they said it was safe as well ? If you are what you eat and your food is genetically modified what does that make your descendants ? pure evil he who controls the food or water controls the world , that should be there motto
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Marchers are claiming a 'media blackout', but if you search 'march against monsanto' then nbc, fox, abc, cbs, several stories come up for each one.
Not sure what their definition of media blackout is.
 

Trigger Hippie

Senior Member.
I'm trying to confirm that Monsanto has a monopoly - that quote doesn't make it seem like it does.
It does seem to have a GMO monopoly.

monsanto-corporations-global-vegetable-seed-market-share_1075.jpg monsanto-share-gm_h328.gif

Perhaps they have monopolies within certain crop types in the United States only. There are about 2.5 million farmers in the US but that figure is an aggregate that probably includes farm types that Monsanto does not sell to.

For instance, what is Monsanto’s markets share of all corn farmers in the US; Those that use both GM and non-GM seeds. Ask the same for onions, tomatoes, etc.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Soylent green is people, not GMOs. It's also fictional.

I know perfectly well what Soylent Green is.

The treatment of the animals we choose to eat is a serious and disturbing issue.
Maybe if they can go with the 'growing meat in a lab' idea that would solve a lot of the ethical problems.

That's where they are going isn't it.

They mess around with the food at every level and lie lie lie lie lie lie and then lie some more about it.

They put poisons and addictive substances in it and people get fatter and fatter and iller and iller and then are pumped full of drugs and wind up like the cows and chickens they couldn't give a shit about whilst they were stuffing it down their necks... now that's ironic... talk about Karma.

GMO, low fat but high fructose/sugar 'health foods' lol, hydrogenated fats, human growth hormones, pharmaceuticals... and you wonder why people call them Frankenfoods?

And what is it all about... higher profits for the big companies and extending shelf life (if possible to infinity). It has nothing to do with providing good healthy food to people.



Where's Waldo... anyone recognise theirself in this pic?
 
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Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Marchers are claiming a 'media blackout', but if you search 'march against monsanto' then nbc, fox, abc, cbs, several stories come up for each one.
Not sure what their definition of media blackout is.

What is your definition of a media blackout?
 

Grieves

Senior Member
Here is what a different seed company says about seed saving.
http://www.kussmaulseeds.com/about/saved-seed.html

Kussmaul seeds, once more, is a vendor of Monsanto products. Their policy on seed-saving is inherently hand-in-hand with Monsanto's.
Monsanto invented Agent Orange they said it was safe as well ?
Yeah, a lot of people seem to overlook the fact that before Monsanto was developing herbicide-resistant plants and such, they were engaged in wholesale deforestation efforts, aiding in poisoning an entire landscape, killing and rendering ill hundreds of thousands, and consigning hundreds of thousands more unborn Vietnamese to defects and cancers... not to mention ruining twenty-five million acres of good farm-land for years to come. Wasn't up to them what the US did with their product though, right? It's not like they'd have any oversight from a moral standpoint over how much of this stuff they'd produce for use in Vietnam. Why should such things even enter the corporate mindset? Who cares about the externalities? Profit is profit.
This is why I'm caught between laughing and groaning every time someone suggests Monsanto attaining a food-monopoly, or anything close to one, wouldn't be a bad thing. Short-term profit will always trump long-term humanitarian concerns for them so long as the profit-doctrine reigns. It might not be 'evil', but it's certainly wrong, especially where daily bread is concerned.
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
Soylent green is people, not GMOs. It's also fictional.

The treatment of the animals we choose to eat is a serious and disturbing issue.
Maybe if they can go with the 'growing meat in a lab' idea that would solve a lot of the ethical problems.

It's easy to forget where our meals come from, when we see them in a celophane package in the meat bin. My friend wanted fresh eggs, and bought some chickens. She no longer eats chicken, because she treats them like pets and feels that way towards them. Her husband told me he has forbidden her from buying a cow, LOL.
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
Monsanto invented Agent Orange they said it was safe as well ? If you are what you eat and your food is genetically modified what does that make your descendants ? pure evil he who controls the food or water controls the world , that should be there motto


Why does everyone let Dow Chemical off the hook? They also produced Agent Orange. I don't know how "safe" an herbicide sprayed from the air on populated areas can claim to be. According to Wiki, 20,000,000 gallons mixed with jet fuel were sprayed on Vietnam. I see absolutely NO equality between herbicides and genetically modified food. What point are you making?
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
Marchers are claiming a 'media blackout', but if you search 'march against monsanto' then nbc, fox, abc, cbs, several stories come up for each one.
Not sure what their definition of media blackout is.

It's whatever they say it means.
 

Grieves

Senior Member
Why does everyone let Dow Chemical off the hook?
Letting DOW chemical off the hook is a North-American tradition.

I see absolutely NO equality between herbicides and genetically modified food.
One of Monsanto's best selling products is 'round-up', a potent herbicide that only GMO 'round-up ready' plants are likely to survive//. aside from the 'super weeds' that are naturally developing resistances and are giving GMO cotton/soy farmers I think it was a terribly hard time.

What point are you making?
That people shouldn't be so silly as to think Monsanto benign, or their intentions good. They have in the past, they do now, and by that pattern almost certainly will in the future put profit far before people.
 
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