Debunked: Executive Order 13575 - Establishment of the White House Rural Council

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
That is not true. The quotes cite the author and the organization the author represents. They provide a good overview of goals and ideology of speakers. They highlight the problems under discussion regarding the agenda of Agenda 21. Characterizing them as "spamming" is not only unfair Mick, it's a bit mean-spirited considering your position of ultimate control in the debate.

I'm not deleting them, am I?

But for such quotes to be persuasive, you need to have some evidence that the quote is A) genuine, and that B) it actually means what it says when taken in context.

Bill Gates, for example, does not want to kill people with vaccines. That alone is so ludicrously wrong it deserves dismissing the rest until its been addressed.

Bu not wanting to cherry pick, I've offered to let muttkat defend his quotes one at a time, and he gets to pick which one to start with.
 
J

Joe

Guest
Did you make your own flyers? I've got a flyer typed up & forum but haven't passed out the flyers yet.
yea we made our own off a email we recieved . Part of their goal is to take a strong republican county and fill it with HUD housing changing the demographics . out of the 7 counties only martin and Indian River County are republican majority . I just got back from the Seven50 road show as they call it . more like a dog and pony show . I got 3 out of 5 commisioners against it . But they have been already implaminting it . Social equeity . Its links thru ICLEI right to Agenda 21 . Another conspiracy coming true right before our eyes . It was set up exactly like the One Bay Area video on the Martin County Tea Party site . http://www.onebayarea.org/
.
 

Charlie Primero

Active Member
I'm not deleting them, am I?

But for such quotes to be persuasive, you need to have some evidence that the quote is A) genuine, and that B) it actually means what it says when taken in context.

Your tolerance is appreciated. :)

I agree with you. Quotes should be genuine and given with proper context. In fact, Conspiracy Theorists like me are constantly frustrated by people misusing quotes because that behavior destroys our overall credibility. The Bill Gates quote is a good example, also the "Pull it" quote for WTC7.

I tracked down the Club of Rome "Humanity is the enemy" quote on Google Books. I haven't looked at the others. Are any others particularly disingenuous?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I tracked down the Club of Rome "Humanity is the enemy" quote on Google Books. I haven't looked at the others. Are any others particularly disingenuous?

Well, let's go with that one. The claim was:

Notice a the odd way this "quote" is phrased, quotes within quotes. Take the last bit
Where does this actually come from. It seems to be saying that inventing an enemy would be a good idea, and they came up with pollution as an "invented" idea. But it seems to be based on this section in The First Global Revolution, page 70:


Which is saying that external enemies have historically been a uniting force.

The the bulk comes from a select paraphrasing of bits of page 70:



Which says that pollution, global warming etc are REAL problems that can be used to help unite people. But we should not focus on the symptoms, but on the cause (people, as it's people who cause pollution etc.)

So it's not a real quote, it's a blend of two sections, put together and edited to fit a particular viewpoint. It also ignores the greater context of the book.

I feel pretty sure most of the other quotes have similar provenance and spin.
 
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Charlie Primero

Active Member
The truth is that these councils are nothing special. There's plenty of them, and all with the same long list of members, because it's basically a mechanism to coordinate policy effectively across all departments. Something you'd think people would want, right?

That depends on whether you are on the payout or pay-for end of their policies. :) Basically these White House councils are a sophisticated way of transferring wealth from poor people to giant corporations. The way fascism works is that the executives appointed by the President to these various councils funnel direct government payouts and contracts to the corporations they represent. Those not represented starve and wither away.

This White House Council on Rural Development is a good example. Look at their policy initiatives to see how they are directing several billions of dollars to favored businesses... http://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/eop/rural-council/policy-initiatives

When I worked in Congress a large part of my job was coordinating with forest product industry representatives to ensure Department of Agriculture spending and policies "went the right way".

The long-term goal of the New World Order started by the Oxford Fabians is not Communism as most conspiracy theorists contend, it's a super-sophisticated, much improved version of fascism wherein a small group of trans-national corporations own virtually all the world's land, water, minerals, and food.
 

muttkat

Banned
Banned
Pick one. We can discuss one at a time.

A large number of unsourced (and mostly unreliable) quotes out of context means nothing - all it does is demonstrate what you already think, and what you are cherry picking quotes that you think are in line with what your theory is.

But you need to be able to back them up.

So pick one. Just one. Let's figure out what it means. Then when we agree on that one, let's move on to the next.

Otherwise you are just spamming.

So which ones are unreliable & unsourced & how do I find out how?
 

muttkat

Banned
Banned
Well, let's go with that one. The claim was:

Notice a the odd way this "quote" is phrased, quotes within quotes. Take the last bit
Where does this actually come from. It seems to be saying that inventing an enemy would be a good idea, and they came up with pollution as an "invented" idea. But it seems to be based on this section in The First Global Revolution, page 70:


Which is saying that external enemies have historically been a uniting force.

The the bulk comes from a select paraphrasing of bits of page 70:



Which says that pollution, global warming etc are REAL problems that can be used to help unite people. But we should not focus on the symptoms, but on the cause (people, as it's people who cause pollution etc.)

So it's not a real quote, it's a blend of two sections, put together and edited to fit a particular viewpoint. It also ignores the greater context of the book.

I feel pretty sure most of the other quotes have similar provenance and spin.

I didn't see this reply of yours before I answered at 2;15.
 
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muttkat

Banned
Banned
Your tolerance is appreciated. :)

I agree with you. Quotes should be genuine and given with proper context. In fact, Conspiracy Theorists like me are constantly frustrated by people misusing quotes because that behavior destroys our overall credibility. The Bill Gates quote is a good example, also the "Pull it" quote for WTC7.

I tracked down the Club of Rome "Humanity is the enemy" quote on Google Books. I haven't looked at the others. Are any others particularly disingenuous?

Actually when Larry stated "pull it" he meant the demolition term for it to come down and this video proves it:

My stupid computer is not copying and pasting.

Go to 911 The Third Truth Dimitri Khalesov. It will change the whole way you look at 911.
 

muttkat

Banned
Banned
Well, let's go with that one. The claim was:

Notice a the odd way this "quote" is phrased, quotes within quotes. Take the last bit
Where does this actually come from. It seems to be saying that inventing an enemy would be a good idea, and they came up with pollution as an "invented" idea. But it seems to be based on this section in The First Global Revolution, page 70:


Which is saying that external enemies have historically been a uniting force.

The the bulk comes from a select paraphrasing of bits of page 70:



Which says that pollution, global warming etc are REAL problems that can be used to help unite people. But we should not focus on the symptoms, but on the cause (people, as it's people who cause pollution etc.)

So it's not a real quote, it's a blend of two sections, put together and edited to fit a particular viewpoint. It also ignores the greater context of the book.

I feel pretty sure most of the other quotes have similar provenance and spin.

Ok I will have to go thru those quotes I put down. One question, is the administrator the only one who debunks something or can the members bring up a subject to be debated on?
 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
That depends on whether you are on the payout or pay-for end of their policies. :) Basically these White House councils are a sophisticated way of transferring wealth from poor people to giant corporations. The way fascism works is that the executives appointed by the President to these various councils funnel direct government payouts and contracts to the corporations they represent. Those not represented starve and wither away.

This White House Council on Rural Development is a good example. Look at their policy initiatives to see how they are directing several billions of dollars to favored businesses... http://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/eop/rural-council/policy-initiatives

When I worked in Congress a large part of my job was coordinating with forest product industry representatives to ensure Department of Agriculture spending and policies "went the right way".

The long-term goal of the New World Order started by the Oxford Fabians is not Communism as most conspiracy theorists contend, it's a super-sophisticated, much improved version of fascism wherein a small group of trans-national corporations own virtually all the world's land, water, minerals, and food.

I'm sure there is a bunch of corruption in government, it seems clear to everyone that a large part of what goes on in congress is driven by corruption, favors, and self-interest.

But I'd stand by that "nothing special". Such corruption has been around since the dawn of time. It's expected. Things like this "rural" council might change the makeup a little, but it not like if the council did not exist them there would be no corruption in those areas.

And a bit of graft is very different from a covert plot to implement agenda 21. It's a bit different from any type of decades-long plot. It's just business as usual. No conspiracy required.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Ok I will have to go thru those quotes I put down. One question, is the administrator the only one who debunks something or can the members bring up a subject to be debated on?

I'd prefer it if you actually have a go at debunking any topic you bring up. Otherwise it's just going to be a deluge of the usual topics.

What do you think about the context of the Club of Rome quote? Does that change anything?
 

MikeC

Closed Account
That is not true. The quotes cite the author and the organization the author represents. They provide a good overview of goals and ideology of speakers. They highlight the problems under discussion regarding the agenda of Agenda 21. Characterizing them as "spamming" is not only unfair Mick, it's a bit mean-spirited considering your position of ultimate control in the debate.

Indeed - the correct technical term for this sort of "argument" is "Gish Gallop"

or even "Gish Gallop" (from a different wiki)

It is actualy much worse than mere spam, since the perpetrator claims "victory" unless each and every item is roundly debunked, which takes a lot more effort than just deleting spam.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
Looks like it was originally an infowars article, so I've fixed the link:
http://www.infowars.com/executive-o...ural-and-agricultural-lands-for-un-agenda-21/

A quote from, that page:

So what are the members of the council - from the GPO website pdf . I have annotated when each of these was created in square brackets, as sourced mainly from wiki:

Well #25 is quite open, but all the other members seem to be to be long standing branches of the US Govt with perfectly obvious historical and on-going interests in rural affairs. And even #25 is limited to "executive branch departments, agencies, and offices" (as may be designated) so it isn't actually a free for all.

Obviously only those founded after 1945 could possiblyhaveben created by the UN, which itself did not exist until then - I invite anyone to identify which of those they think fit the quote.
 
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muttkat

Banned
Banned
And can you even place any of those quotes in context? Quotes without context are pretty meaningless.

http://habitat.igc.org/vancouver/vp-d.htm

So have we figured out yet that the UN's interest leads toward no private ownership of private property?
Is This a quote with context then?

What would this be called? Communism?

We'll throw in the other quotes
 

muttkat

Banned
Banned
I'm not. I'm asking if perhaps you are?



I don't know. I'm trying to understand why you claim the UN is stealing your land.



Slow down. Let's try to focus on the Aransas Pathway Project. You said this project is an example of the UN taking away your property rights or land or something...

The members of the Aransas Pathway Project steering committee are appointed by the elected officials of the commissioners court. The Aransas Pathway Project is controlled by local government. Here's one of the guys from the local government. The 2nd precinct commissioner is Leslie "Bubba" Casterline. He's one of four elected commissioners that set up the Aransas Pathway Project to be run by the non elected steering committee.

Are you saying Bubba is a puppet of the UN?

casterline.png

Aransas Pathways promotes Smart Growth. Hree is a quote:

Participating in a UN advocated planning process would very likely bring out many of the conspiracy - fixated groups and individuals in our society... This segment of our society who fear 'one world government' and a UN invasion of the United States through which our individual freedom would be stripped away would actively work to defeat any elected official who joined -the conspiracy' by undertaking LA21. So we call our process something else, such as comprehensive planning, growth management or smart growth." J. Gary Lawrence, advisor to President Clintons Council on Sustainable Development.

I guess I'll have to ask Bubba if he's a puppet of the UN?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
http://habitat.igc.org/vancouver/vp-d.htm

So have we figured out yet that the UN's interest leads toward no private ownership of private property?
Is This a quote with context then?

What would this be called? Communism?
[/EX]

Did you read the entire document?

It very clearly does NOT advocate no private ownership of land, and in fact discusses private ownership. Putting some words in CAPS is not revealing a hidden meaning, it's you imposing your own meaning on their words.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
I am quite familiar with many of these sorts of claims. My experience comes from participation in the movement against public control of land use.
I moved to the Ozark mountain region of northern Arkansas in 1993, and around 1995 a UN designated Ozark Man and the Biosphere Reserve (OMAB)was proposed for the region extending into southern Missouri and western Oklahoma. Citizens found out about the effort, which was sparsely publicized, perhaps intentionally so. This created suspicion, and many residents who had been evicted by eminent domain during the 1960's in the Buffalo River Valley when that National Riverway was established envisioned the same thing happening. Most of us saw a loss of local control, and the threat of big mistakes made when big government makes the decisions.

Yes, there was an element of conspiracy theory among some but also a general distrust of big government and control played a factor. Very quickly, many groups organized against the OMAB. We created chapters in every county, held our own public meetings, and forced county officials to vote in County Ordinances against the OMAB. We flooded every public meeting about the program and had our say. This involved several thousand people and we made it quite clear that we were opposed and would not under any circumstances allow the designation to happen. We used primay source material, email, flyers, newsletters, faxes, public speakers, letters to the editor, and every possible avenue of attack. It was a complete and total rout strictly from human effort and diligence. The OMAB documents spoke of "stakeholders", and we took them literally. We became the stakeholders and put a stake in the heart of the plan. I was head of our county chapter and wrote the local ordinance myself. Our small county had a meeting which brought out about 100, and a core group of about 20.

To my knowledge, this was the first time that an organized citizen movement stopped a MAB reserve. I believe that we stopped the entire MAB program for the USA, because since that experience not a single one has been established here since the Land Between The Lakes in 1991.

Our efforts were analyzed by a PhD in favor of OMAB in this paper:
http://prfamerica.org/ozarks/OzarksBioReserve-chapter4.html

If you want to understand the significance of what we did, you really need to read about their perspective in the above chapter.

The author criticized and yet also praised us for what we did. Though she worked for the United Nations, she had some respect for us because she saw that we took the term "stakeholder" and took it to its logical limit. Her conclusion was that they went about it all wrong, that they should have changed the language, they should have distanced themselves from the UN (but how could they?) and that they should have worked closer with us. The new strategy to implement Agenda 21 has been re-labeled "Local Agenda 21" (LA21).

That is most likely what they are doing today with ICLEI, which was formed in 1995 just after the OMAB debacle.

This was an epic and historical event that you should understand, it was a big deal.

The way we saw it, we, as private property owners, had already preserved our land because we saw the benefit it gave to us, we didn't need an outside entity to do what we had already been doing for ourselves.

Personally, I think that the agenda of big government/ world government vs local control will always be with us and a source of conflict. I am opposed to top-down control, and in favor of local control. The citizens of every area can only maintain control through vigilance and local action when needed. Those who seek control won't stop coming, if one avenue fails, they will work another way.

That's my take on this subject, from personal experience.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
I am quite familiar with many of these sorts of claims. My experience comes from participation in the movement against public control of land use.
I moved to the Ozark mountain region of northern Arkansas in 1993, and around 1995 the Ozark Man and the Biosphere Reserve (OMAB)was proposed for the region extending into southern Missouri and western Oklahoma. Citizens found out about the effort, which was sparsely publicized, perhaps intentionally so. This created suspicion, and many residents who had been evicted by eminent domain during the 1960's in the Buffalo River Valley when that National Riverway was established envisioned the same thing happening. Most of us saw a loss of local control, and the threat of big mistakes made when big government makes the decisions.

Yes, there was an element of conspiracy theory among some but also a general distrust of big government and control played a factor. Very quickly, many groups organized against the OMAB. We created chapters in every county, held our own public meetings, and forced county officials to vote in County Ordinances against the OMAB. We flooded every public meeting about the program and had our say. This involved several thousand people and we made it quite clear that we were opposed and would not under any circumstances allow the designation to happen. We used primay source material, email, flyers, newsletters, faxes, public speakers, letters to the editor, and every possible avenue of attack. It was a complete and total rout strictly from human effort and diligence. The OMAB documents spoke of "stakeholders", and we took them literally. We became the stakeholders and put a stake in the heart of the plan. I was head of our county chapter and wrote the local ordinance myself. Our small county had a meeting which brought out about 100, and a core group of about 20.

To my knowledge, this was the first time that an organized citizen movement stopped a MAB reserve. I believe that we stopped the entire MAB program for the USA, because since that experience not a single one has been established here since the Land Between The Lakes in 1991.

Our efforts were analyzed by a PhD in favor of OMAB in this paper:
http://prfamerica.org/ozarks/OzarksBioReserve-chapter4.html

If you want to understand the significance of what we did, you really need to read about their perspective.

The author criticized and yet also praised us for what we did. Though she worked for the United Nations, she had some respect for us because she saw that we took the term "stakeholder" and took it to its logical limit. Her conclusion was that they went about it all wrong, that they should have changed the language, they should have distanced themselves from the UN (but how could they?) and that they should have worked closer with us.

That is most likely what they are doing today with ICLEI, which was formed in 1995 just after the OMAB debacle.

This was an epic and historical event that you should understand, it was a big deal.

The way we saw it, we, as private property owners, had already preserved our land because we saw the benefit it gave to us, we didn't need an outside entity to do what we had already been doing for ourselves.

Personally, I think that the agenda of big government/ world government vs local control will always be with us and a source of conflict. I am opposed to top-down control, and in favor of local control. The citizens of every area can only maintain control through vigilance and local action when needed. Those who seek control won't stop coming, if one avenue fails, they will work another way.

That's my take on this subject, from personal experience.
So in your opinion what is the ultimate goal of the UN in these activities ?
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
So in your opinion what is the ultimate goal of the UN in these activities ?

In their "infinite wisdom", they intend to shape and mold others into their vision of the way the world should be. That vision doesn't necessarily coincide with the goals of the local people. It represents a centralization of something which should be a strictly local matter. It establishes a structural framework for a control mechanism which is not needed and which runs the risk of what all centralization entails, a loss of local and even individual control, replacing it with a centralized system where big mistakes, not small mistakes can be expected, a top heavy wasteful expenditure employing a cadre of ever more grasping government.
It's the inevitable result of government which always overreaches and has to be beaten back once in awhile. It's human nature, but it denies human failings in its arrogance.

There is a whole lexicon of buzzwords that they use such as "transformation", "guidance", "change agent", and "facilitation". All of these have connotations of force, control and persuation. There is no other reason for such terms except in a C2 environment.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
In their "infinite wisdom", they intend to shape and mold others into their vision of the way the world should be. That vision doesn't necessarily coincide with the goals of the local people. It represents a centralization of something which should be a strictly local matter. It establishes a structural framework for a control mechanism which is not needed and which runs the risk of what all centralization entails, a loss of local and even individual control, replacing it with a centralized system where big mistakes, not small mistakes can be expected, a top heavy wasteful expenditure employing a cadre of ever more grasping government.
It's the inevitable result of government which always overreaches and has to be beaten back once in awhile. It's human nature, but it denies human failings in its arrogance.

There is a whole lexicon of buzzwords that they use such as "transformation", "guidance", "change agent", and "facilitation". All of these have connotations of force, control and persuation. There is no other reason for such terms except in a C2 environment.
Hmmmm . . . first time we actually agree on almost everything . . . LoL!!
 

Charlie Primero

Active Member
It's just business as usual. No conspiracy required.

Your argument that no long-term political goals exist because graft is historically unexceptional is a non-sequitur.

Political movements do make long-range plans, and do have long-term goals. Wealthy individuals do make plans for their children's futures. The middle class even do this to a certain extent via college funds and visits to the dentist.

Mick, your contention that political actors do not plan is false.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Your argument that no long-term political goals exist because graft is historically unexceptional is a non-sequitur.

Political movements do make long-range plans, and do have long-term goals. Wealthy individuals do make plans for their children's futures. The middle class even do this to a certain extent via college funds and visits to the dentist.

Mick, your contention that political actors do not plan is false.
I guess the argument comes down to the definition of conspiracy??? Seems to me it turns on the desire to keep something covert to avoid discovery that would lead to interference, opposition or prosecution . . . as above the desire to sneak through land use restrictions or ownership denial through keeping public discussion below the radar detection of potential local interests . . .
 

Charlie Primero

Active Member
My experience comes from participation in the movement against public control of land use.

Interesting. As you predicted, they do learn from their failures and adjust accordingly.

Check out http://www.democratsagainstunagenda21.com Muttkat mentioned. Watch the videos of how they control local public meetings with something called "The Delphi Technique".

Instead of big land grabs like you experienced, they have adopted a slower, more subtle strategy of gaining control of smaller pieces of land by administrative rulings and policy changes which are able to avoid democratic scrutiny. Death by a thousand cuts one might say.

They have learned to cloak UN involvement of their initiatives, by setting up numerous, smaller programs with local-sounding names and redirecting grants to local planning agencies, local zoning commissions, and local councils of government.

Personally I think that the agenda of big government/ world government vs local control will always be with us and a source of conflict.

I agree. Witness Washington D.C. vs. Native Americans and E.U. vs. Ireland and Rome vs. the Celts. The phenomenon of Elites using the poor as livestock goes back to ancient Egypt. There will always be human predators. Agenda 21 is merely a subset of the latest iteration.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Your argument that no long-term political goals exist because graft is historically unexceptional is a non-sequitur.

Political movements do make long-range plans, and do have long-term goals. Wealthy individuals do make plans for their children's futures. The middle class even do this to a certain extent via college funds and visits to the dentist.

Mick, your contention that political actors do not plan is false.

Of course political movements have long term plans - at the very least they have long term stated objectives.

But what we are discussing here is if there is some kind of hidden agenda, and what that agenda might be. It seems a little vague. Is the theory:

A) The worlds richest people are using the environment as an excuse to abolish private property so they can own everything.
B) The UN is power mad, and will stop at nothing short of controlling the entire planet.
C) The world's richest people (or the UN) are so concerned about the environment, that the only way they can think to save it is to take everyone's land?
 

Charlie Primero

Active Member
But what we are discussing here is if there is some kind of hidden agenda, and what that agenda might be. It seems a little vague.

You asserted in the initial post that Conspiracy Theorists like me are wrong to question the creation of White House Councils because such Councils are benign, ineffectual, and unimportant.

I counter that they are not.


Is the theory:
A) The worlds richest people are using the environment as an excuse to abolish private property so they can own everything.
B) The UN is power mad, and will stop at nothing short of controlling the entire planet.
C) The world's richest people (or the UN) are so concerned about the environment, that the only way they can think to save it is to take everyone's land?

Allow me to alter your version to represent what I theorize:

A) The worlds richest people are using environmentalism as one means to gain ownership of resources. They would like everything.
B) The United Nations political organizaton is a tool of the elite.
 

Trigger Hippie

Senior Member.
Aransas Pathways promotes Smart Growth. Hree is a quote:

Participating in a UN advocated planning process would very likely bring out many of the conspiracy - fixated groups and individuals in our society...

Here is the full quote from Lawrence:

Lawrence is not admitting to a conspiracy in that quote. Taken in context, he's saying that conspiracy minded people will resist a UN initiative simply because it comes from the UN and not on the nature of the plan itself. His prediction is correct. It seems the situation is now at the point where some people, like tea-baggers and other fringe groups, will claim that any conservation effort is an agenda 21 initiative to steal their land. They will draw tenuous connections between environmentalists, "globalists" and communism to convey that point. I've even read some people claim that cycling enthusiasts are the front line shock troops spearheading a fascists environmentalist agenda. :rolleyes:

I empathize with people concerned about losing control of their affairs to meddlesome outsiders. I can't find any compelling evidence that corroborates the extraordinary claims that these meddlesome outsiders are part of a long term global conspiracy. I certainly find using unsubstantiated fear-mongering a distasteful means of promoting any cause.

Here is the website of the Agenda 21 document. I can't find anything about preventing people from owning private property.

Here is the website of the Aransas Pathway Project. I have not found any evidence of bans on private property ownership or plans to expropriate land. The pathway project is preserving historical homes, promoting bird watching and building giant 25 ft. statues of blue crabs.


Which specific past, current or future plans of the Aransas Pathway Project do you object to, and why do you object to them?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Allow me to alter your version to represent what I theorize:

A) The worlds richest people are using environmentalism as one means to gain ownership of resources. They would like everything.
B) The United Nations political organizaton is a tool of the elite.

So you disagree with Muttkat then? It's not a communist conspiracy to abolish private property, but a capitalist conspiracy to feudalise property.

Who are the elite? How many of them are there?
 

Charlie Primero

Active Member
So you disagree with Muttkat then? It's not a communist conspiracy to abolish private property, but a capitalist conspiracy to feudalise property.

Something like that. Some call it NeoFeudalism but that term is too vauge to be useful. It's not really Capitalism because it relies on government coersion. It's not really Fascism because it's super-national.

We use the term New World Order because it really is a *new* type of sociopolitical order which encompasses the entire planet. Historians will have a spiffy name for it a hundred years from now.


Who are the elite? How many of them are there?

"The Elite" is a slang term denoting any small group who sit atop a social hierarchy. In Texas prisons they are known as Shotcallers. In the world of sports they are the Olympians. Among my broke-azz redneck cousins, it's me and my bottomless checkbook. :cool:

In the social hierarchy of the entire world, at any point in time I can personally control about $290,000 worth of its resources (house, cars, business equipment, 401k, etc.) For our purpose here I feel comfortable designating The Elite to be anyone who can control resources exceeding a billion U.S. dollars in value.

According to Wikipedia, that would be 0.00002% of the world's population, or 1,226 people.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
Some of these don't have to be conspiracies. They can just be groups with a consensus. There are outliers in any group. In our fight against the OMAB, we had to actively work to stop Klu Klux Klan from gaining a platform on our issue. Some of them came to the meetings. Similarly, Sierra Cub gets anarchists and Earth Firsters as well as birdwatchers coming in to their meetings.
 

Charlie Primero

Active Member
I guess the argument comes down to the definition of conspiracy??? Seems to me it turns on the desire to keep something covert to avoid discovery that would lead to interference, opposition or prosecution . . . as above the desire to sneak through land use restrictions or ownership denial through keeping public discussion below the radar detection of potential local interests . . .

In my opinion, yes. Wikipedia seems to agree with us:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

A conspiracy theory explains an event as being the result of an alleged plot by a covert group or organization or, more broadly, the idea that important political, social or economic events are the products of secret plots that are largely unknown to the general public.
 

Charlie Primero

Active Member
Here is the Delphi Technique I referred to earlier:

I thought I invented this technique when I was a professional speaker. :rolleyes:



When ever a participant asked a question I didn't want to answer, I would write it on a flip chart at the side of the stage I set up specifically for that purpose. I would promise to answer the question at the end of the presentation.

Of course, the presentation always "ran overtime". The angry and confused dissenters hassled me one-on-one as the audience bolted for the doors to have cigarettes and dinner at home. I apologized and asked the dissenters to help me carry my projectors and stuff to my car.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Something like that. Some call it NeoFeudalism but that term is too vauge to be useful. It's not really Capitalism because it relies on government coersion. It's not really Fascism because it's super-national.

We use the term New World Order because it really is a *new* type of sociopolitical order which encompasses the entire planet. Historians will have a spiffy name for it a hundred years from now.

"The Elite" is a slang term denoting any small group who sit atop a social hierarchy. In Texas prisons they are known as Shotcallers. In the world of sports they are the Olympians. Among my broke-azz redneck cousins, it's me and my bottomless checkbook. :cool:

In the social hierarchy of the entire world, at any point in time I can personally control about $290,000 worth of its resources (house, cars, business equipment, 401k, etc.) For our purpose here I feel comfortable designating The Elite to be anyone who can control resources exceeding a billion U.S. dollars in value.

According to Wikipedia, that would be 0.00002% of the world's population, or 1,226 people.

And you think these elite all share the same goals? They are all in agreement? They all are part of the conspiracy? Larry Page, Warren Buffet, the Kochs, Carlos Slim, KimJun-Ju, George Lucas, Lin Yu-lin... all part of the SAME conspiracy? Everyone on the attached list?
http://www.forbes.com/billionaires/list/

See, I don't think so. I think many of them act largely in their own self interest, some of them may subscribe to certain political ideas. But I think they are all largely different. Many are self made. Many have inherited wealth. Some got it quickly, some slowly. Some via hard work and ingenuity, some by rather dubious tactics. Some are young, some are old. There is a large variety of people there.
 

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George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
And you think these elite all share the same goals? They are all in agreement? They all are part of the conspiracy? Larry Page, Warren Buffet, the Kochs, Carlos Slim, KimJun-Ju, George Lucas, Lin Yu-lin... all part of the SAME conspiracy? Everyone on the attached list?
http://www.forbes.com/billionaires/list/

See, I don't think so. I think many of them act largely in their own self interest, some of them may subscribe to certain political ideas. But I think they are all largely different. Many are self made. Many have inherited wealth. Some got it quickly, some slowly. Some via hard work and ingenuity, some by rather dubious tactics. Some are young, some are old. There is a large variety of people there.
Excuse me for commenting but while this group above is rather diverse, there are groups of intellectuals who have been pushing these tactics and ideas for decades . . . so if their ideas have finally been realized into action by proponents of the new order then I think it could be considered a conspiratorial process . . . especially when they attempt to suppress public recognition of their actions . . .
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Excuse me for commenting but while this group above is rather diverse, there are groups of intellectuals who have been pushing these tactics and ideas for decades . . . so if their ideas have finally been realized into action by proponents of the new order then I think it could be considered a conspiratorial process . . . especially when they attempt to suppress public recognition of their actions . . .

But the intellectuals are generally not billionaires. How does it work exactly, the Sierra Club for example, do billionaires pay the Sierra Club to get rid of private property? Do they all contribute a bit? How do they coordinate?
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
But the intellectuals are generally not billionaires. How does it work exactly, the Sierra Club for example, do billionaires pay the Sierra Club to get rid of private property? Do they all contribute a bit? How do they coordinate?
Their purpose is not to personally acquire private ownership but to dictate how people are able to utilize their own property . . . they could care less if they (original owners) retain the deeds of ownership but they must comply with the new uses allowed or prohibited from uses not now allowed . . . thus taxes are still paid for basically useless property . . .
 
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