Debunked: DHS orders 450 million .40 caliber bullets for use in America

[Joe]

[video]http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0812/79807.html[/video]

Sure they are collecting them all in a facility that is not even built. Computers can't tell the difference between, "I am going to attack Chicago" when Chicago is the name of a village or an enemy player in a computer game and " I am going to attack Chicago' meaning the city.

There will be thousands of the first. On one server, I accidentally attacked the wrong village Chicago. I attacked one that 27 hrs away, instead of the one that was 15 min from me.

If they were monitoring the internet, there would be a prison full of folks that have threatened the President alone. And yet those some folks post day after day.

really ?Ive never seen a threat to The POTUS ? Even on all my right wing sites ? Got any examples ? You really have no clue on the capabilities of the CIA FBI DOD ect ? here I tried to find someone on the Left to explain ​

 

[Cairenn]

I have seen plenty of them. I will keep my eye out for them next week, I will be off line most of the next 3 days.

Have you ever received a death threat ? I have, at least twice and it is scary. Then I realized that they were most likely cowards who liked to act tough on the internet

 

[Joe]

Yea on the internet Iv gotten threats but as you say they usually are just cowards . I know a lot of people the dislike Obama very much as some did Bush but none dumb enough to make a threat . Those that do aren't the ones they should be watching because as we know they are cowards .

 

[Mattnik]

[video]http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0812/79807.html[/video]
really ?Ive never seen a threat to The POTUS ? Even on all my right wing sites ? Got any examples ? You really have no clue on the capabilities of the CIA FBI DOD ect ? here I tried to find someone on the Left to explain ​

I've seen many, often in the comments section on Fox News and Breitbart articles. I'll post them here as I see them over the next couple of days.

 

[Joe]

I've seen many, often in the comments section on Fox News and Breitbart articles. I'll post them here as I see them over the next couple of days.

Iv used to post on Breitbart until they got rid of Intense Debate and went to Discus . There are those like on any site that troll to make the group look bad . But like I said they are usually cowards and probably living in their moms basement blogging in their underwear . We done a pretty good job at exposeing the agent provocateurs which is what most are . Iv even seen them at Tea Party rally's im sure they were at Occupy events as well . I would like to see them so if you find them post them .

 

[Cairenn]

One liberal site that I get posts from, had a 'troll' invasion last night. They normally leave most up, but they had to delete and ban folks, it was so bad.

 

[JRBids]

Yea on the internet Iv gotten threats but as you say they usually are just cowards . I know a lot of people the dislike Obama very much as some did Bush but none dumb enough to make a threat . Those that do aren't the ones they should be watching because as we know they are cowards .

I'll read Facebook for 30 seconds and see if I can come up with one.

 

[jvnk08]

You dont have to monitor . just key words or specific sites . Right now The Southern poverty Law center has put out a list of Right wing extremist propanda . Right wing sites like Metabunk .the same site that labeled the Family Research Council a hate group which made them a target for a Left wing hater . Family Research Council Shooter Charged with Assault with a Weapon http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0812/79807.html

Keywords and certain websites certainly, but they're well aware that would only stop their less intelligent targets. Most people planning to do anything they'd be interested in are well aware of encyrption and software layers like Tor and I2P.

Realtime DPI(deep packet inspection) of all Internet traffic, while technically feasible, would be incredibly expensive, requiring at least a 1:1 ratio of routers and dedicated DPI hardware along with tons of compliant ISP employees. As far as I know there hasn't been a single person to speak up about this so I don't think it's going on(the AT&T room and NSA activities are merely siphoning to the best of my knowledge, not realtime inspection).

 

[Joe]

well here is one of those ​in Racine

 

[Unregistered]

This debunks nothing, it only proves the point. Why would one use expensive hollowpoints for target practice!???

Also you are missing the big picture, these rounds are sockpiled. They are not being used for target practice. An idiot and a really bad shot would need 1000's or rounds to qualify. That's insane. I've qualified and I've never seen anywhere near that number.

If throwing out half truths and false information is all it takes to debunk the facts we are in a world of hurt.

 

[Mick West]

This debunks nothing, it only proves the point. Why would one use expensive hollowpoints for target practice!???

Also you are missing the big picture, these rounds are sockpiled. They are not being used for target practice. An idiot and a really bad shot would need 1000's or rounds to qualify. That's insane. I've qualified and I've never seen anywhere near that number.

If throwing out half truths and false information is all it takes to debunk the facts we are in a world of hurt.

The use the same ammo for target practice as they use in the field. That's just what they do. It has been confirmed multiple time.

 

[RolandD]

This debunks nothing, it only proves the point. Why would one use expensive hollowpoints for target practice!???

Also you are missing the big picture, these rounds are sockpiled. They are not being used for target practice. An idiot and a really bad shot would need 1000's or rounds to qualify. That's insane. I've qualified and I've never seen anywhere near that number.

If throwing out half truths and false information is all it takes to debunk the facts we are in a world of hurt.

I can tell from experience that some semi-automatic pistols can have trouble loading hollow points. That's not something you want to discover in the middle of a shoot out. Even if it's only one out of every twenty rounds, you want to know that it's a possibility, and how to correct it, quickly, when it occurs. That's one reason why they use the same ammo for target practice as in the field, and why they use a lot of it.

 

[JRBids]

This debunks nothing, it only proves the point. Why would one use expensive hollowpoints for target practice!???

Also you are missing the big picture, these rounds are sockpiled. They are not being used for target practice. An idiot and a really bad shot would need 1000's or rounds to qualify. That's insane. I've qualified and I've never seen anywhere near that number.

If throwing out half truths and false information is all it takes to debunk the facts we are in a world of hurt.

Prove what you think they are for.

 

[Joe]

Dem Senator from Chicago of all places wants your handguns ​

 

[Cairenn]

You train with what you fire. If you didn't need to, the military would train with blanks

 

[Mick West]

You train with what you fire. If you didn't need to, the military would train with blanks

Well, they do actually need to hit with their practice targets, so blanks would not be that useful for practice. The argument is that they would use Full Metal Jacket ammo instead of hollow-point, as FMJ is cheaper.

But they do, as you say, train with what they use. HP.

 

[Unregistered]

ok so i just randomly ran across this page in a hunt for the so called "truth" please UNDERSTAND that I do not BELIEVE either way what anyone here has stated, proven or "debunked" fact of the matter is information in today's age can be easily altered or manufactured.
so that being said just a few things i want to point out.

1. MOST (influence placed on most here) agencies local or federal DO NOT TRAIN WITH DUTY ammo. sources? my uncle was Mclean County sheriff of the state of Illinois for 20 years (Steve Brienen google it if you dont believe idc) stated to me when i inquired of him of this "None of my officers EVER used hollow point rounds for training OR practice it is just simply to costly and plainly idiotic when you think of what the rounds are designed for" he also went on to state in a "semi-defense" of the theory "BUT also take into consideration MANY agencies use FMJ (full metal jacket) rounds for duty ammo in their "preferred" Assault Rifles and sometimes Sidearms because of cost efficiency. Let it be noted where i am from EVERY COUNTY STATE AND EVEN SOME LOCAL LEO agencies have a AR-15 or M4A1 in their trunks for "emergencies"

2. my brother Jason Finfrock PFC 1st battalion 41st Charlie company of the US ARMY stated to me plainly "the cheapest ammo is always used for practice its common sense. why waste good for killing bullets on paper or the such?

3. saw alot of comments back and forth about gold and silver. lets take in account the current "supposedly" near situations at hand and address them.

FIRST. a Economic collapse and hate to say it folks but common sense says its bound to happen eventually i wont list resources but if want them just read a d@m* history book" in this event really think about this if OUR economy collapsed to the point of "sever" civil unrest do you really believe every to be
A. short cited enough to not see value in gold in near future and to go along with that
B. Do you not see other countries not offering "humanitarian" aid ? think "extras" cant be bought??? everyone has a price period.
C. also look at a couple of things here one no collapse would be long or permanent due to the fact of so many forms of government involved in America, gold is valuable plain and simple even the USD used to backed by gold until we switched to using the trading of oil and trade in general to back its value plus add in the fact (again not gonna link common knowledge want proof google it) that China and others are switching to another denomination and some backing it with gold. IAM sorry but i would rather have something backed up by something i can touch that something that only exists on paper. BUT as to the argument of food and stuffs being more valuable. STOP and THINK in such a bad even food will be most needed yes! but most stolen and sought after BUT have a very limited supply compared to the demand which will cause high prices compared to trade for things such as a car or a house namely because people can sleep just about anywhere but always have to eat. ALSO is no one considering the refuge possibility? if someone with their savings in food or bullets goes to another country the food wont be worth as much as gold or silver and bullets wont be worth alot in most counties especially if they are (and most likely will be) confiscated upon entry.
But i digress from that endless debate the fact of the matter is BOTH are valuable in any situation some more than others again DEPENDING ON THE SITUATION.
SECOND AND ECT. apply previous methodology to any given end of the US scenario and it will apply as for a end of the world well thats a whole different story than involves many different scenarios that i dont have time or spare keyboard for

4. i must point out while what the "government" "appears" to be doing could be accepted as "good" for the people" it can also be accepted as "bad" for the people again research history many Tyrannies have started the same way with simple "erosion's" of "liberties" but again this can be debated with all valid points to the end of time all i can say is 2 things "better safe than sorry" and "Governments of all nations fail their people "severely" at one point in time or another history tells us that"

I do not wish to start a "flame or troll" war but would like open discussion with out BIAS based on truth while i do not believe that the US FED's are out to get us i do believe they are for sure not 100% for us simply because any man who seeks to obtain power is not fit to have it and "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" all i am saying is the people need to become the people at some point and not the goverment and their people is should be the people and THEIR government get that folks the US was MEANT TO BE CONTROLLED 110% BY THE PEOPLE FOR THE PEOPLE not any other way PERIOD.

 

[Mick West]

1. MOST (influence placed on most here) agencies local or federal DO NOT TRAIN WITH DUTY ammo. sources? my uncle was Mclean County sheriff of the state of Illinois for 20 years (Steve Brienen google it if you dont believe idc) stated to me when i inquired of him of this "None of my officers EVER used hollow point rounds for training OR practice it is just simply to costly and plainly idiotic when you think of what the rounds are designed for" he also went on to state in a "semi-defense" of the theory "BUT also take into consideration MANY agencies use FMJ (full metal jacket) rounds for duty ammo in their "preferred" Assault Rifles and sometimes Sidearms because of cost efficiency. Let it be noted where i am from EVERY COUNTY STATE AND EVEN SOME LOCAL LEO agencies have a AR-15 or M4A1 in their trunks for "emergencies"

2. my brother Jason Finfrock PFC 1st battalion 41st Charlie company of the US ARMY stated to me plainly "the cheapest ammo is always used for practice its common sense. why waste good for killing bullets on paper or the such?

But we are not talking about local Sheriffs (who make their own budget decisions at a local level), or the Army (who are banned from using hollow point by international law). We are talking about the DHS. The DHS themselves have specifically stated that they mostly use the same ammo for training as they use in the field.
View attachment Coburn DHS Letter Response Part 2.pdf

4. Please describe how DHS (and its component agencies) plan to use this ammunition. How many rounds are allocated for training? How many are allocated for operational use? How many rounds are allocated for other purposes?

CBP: Approximately 70 percent of CBP ammunition is used for quarterly qualifications, mandated firearms training, advanced firearms training, as well as testing and evaluation. Twenty percent of CBP ammunition is allocated to maintaining CBP's operational posture. This includes rounds for duty use, as well as for maintaining CBP's special response teams. The remaining 10 percent is dedicated to maintaining ammunition reserves at both the national and local levels.


FLETC: All FLETC ammunition is purchased, distributed, and used for law enforcement training. No ammunition is allocated for operational or other use.
NPPD/FPS: FPS allocates 1,000 rounds of ammunition per firearm per year for quarterly qualifications and training, to include advanced firearms training exercises, as well as ammunition to support law enforcement operations.


ICE: ICE allocates 1,000 rounds of ammunition per firearm per year for quarterly qualifications and training, to include advanced firearms training exercises, special response team training, and ammunition to support law enforcement operations.


TSA: Approximately 21 million rounds of TSA's current inventory are reduced-hazard, lead-free frangible training ammunition, which is used exclusively for training. The remaining rounds are duty ammunition, which are used for both training and operational purposes. Overall, approximately 35 percent of TSA ammunition is allocated for operational use (qualifications and duty carry). Fewer than 100,000 rounds are used for other purposes annually, including firearms testing and evaluation.

USCG: USCG allocates its ammunition inventory for Non-Combat Expenditure Allowance (NCEA) and ship-fill purposes. The NCEA, available to both shore units and cutters, is used for training and for non-defense operations including maritime law enforcement operations. USCG ship-fill allowances are specific to cutters and are designed for use on defense operations.

USSS: USSS plans to use the above mentioned ammunition for training, research, and operational use as needed to maintain professional firearms proficiency. Based on a review of recent historical data, USSS plans to allocate approximately 60 percent of the ammunition for training, 38 percent for operational use, and 2 percent for quality control testing of all ammunition and function firing of all new and repaired weapons.

 

[Unregistered]

a couple thoughts on that and also with similes stated i was merely making a generalized reference point that being most agencies go on the cheap for training and such regardless of the type of round used

First being again not saying either way but information can be manipulated easily. Just be cause someone (or some organization) says one things does not mean its true....again i dont have a preset determination to prove it either way so i therefor have the ability to step back and look at all the information AS A WHOLE.
1 being yes im glad they have stated "Most" of it is used for training. but who knows if what they say it is for is true i doubt they would say "O yea its for some training and stockpile of ammo for (insert reason here) wouldn't be the first time A (not a US just A) Government Agency has lied.
2 also if for "training" why have specified training rounds as stated (TSA: Approximately 21 million rounds of TSA's current inventory are reduced-hazard, lead-free frangible training ammunition, which is used exclusively for training.) and duty/training rounds whats the point? last time i checked most government agencies try to be as cheap as possible hence the mass order deals so why spend so much money just to throw it away and yes training with hollow points is throwing it away. i can maybe see for just qualifications thought being qualify with what your going to use but training?

again im not trying to prove or disprove anything! im just taking a step back and seeing fishy and IMO it seems worth questioning if not for the "conspiracy theorist" then for simple economics why are the broke tax payers paying the broke as all hell goverment to pay for a IMO a unnecessary expense? sure might only save a few million dollars but everything counts.
im also listening to both sides of the argument and looking at the "conspiracy side" as a whole and this as a whole and im not saying its possible enough to loose sleep over but possible enough to ponder. for again this would not be the first time in history a government lied to its people to later exert more control lets face it in the grand scheme of things our government is EXTREMELY YOUNG AND INEXPERIENCED as it being not but a few hundred years old. but i digress im not saying we are in trouble but when any goverment constantly is pushing the boarder of its power over its people then everyone should look up and ask questions.

 

[Cairenn]

I would suggest that you read this entire thread. Since hollow points don' t handle like non hollow points, they need to train with THEM. Many local police depts cut corners on training and ammo. If not we there wouldn't be stories of shoot outs with the police where they shoot off a 100 rds and they only hit a car.

In some of the positions that these folks hold, they will need to be accurate with their FIRST shot. They are having to use their weapons in areas crowded with innocents.

 

[Unregistered]

i would like i scientific or at least a general consensus by PROFESSIONAL SHOOTERS as too why JHP over FMJ for training? specially being with bullet designs now days the accuracy difference between the too especially in handgun ranges is extremely negligible

 

[Gunguy45]

i would like i scientific or at least a general consensus by PROFESSIONAL SHOOTERS as too why JHP over FMJ for training? specially being with bullet designs now days the accuracy difference between the too especially in handgun ranges is extremely negligible

Well...not a Professional Shooter...as no one has ever payed me to do it (except in the Navy, and luckily I never had to shoot a human being). A Professional Shooter might shoot 30-40K rds a year...just in practice. I have been interested and owned firearms of all types since I was 10 yrs old...that was 45 years ago. I spent 24 yrs in the Navy and was in charge of 2 ships self defense force teams and was trained by the US Marines (and informally by Navy SEALS). I fired all of the pistols used by the military in the 80's and 90's. I've fired many rounds through the M-79 Grenade launcher, the M-14 (both semi and full auto...the latter was a beast), the M-16, the M-60, the M-2, and even a 3"/50 cal multi purpose gun (that's a cannon by the way). I qualified Expert with both pistol and rifle. Not too many years ago...I would easily shoot 1000 rds on the weekend, reload them over the week, then do it again the next weekend. Those are my qualifications.

Here's the deal...

When I go to the range now to just work on technique....I do indeed use the cheapest FMJ ammo I can buy. I used to "roll my own" but that time has passed. I also don't shoot at silhouette targets. I put a blank piece of paper with a single black dot on it on the target stand. I don't try and adjust my aim, I just aim at the black dot. If my rounds land elsewhere, but are closely grouped...I don't care, as I'm only working on technique. A tight group means that my technique is good.

After I'm satisfied that I'm not really screwing up (100-200 rds)...I will shoot a box of my defensive ammo. My defensive pistols are adjusted to shoot THAT ammo to point of aim....and yes...it can vary by several inches at ranges as close as 7-10 yards. The reason? Cheap FMJ ammo is normally loaded to lower velocities and less quality control. With the same weight bullet that means the muzzle will rise less with the FMJ vs the premium defensive ammo. This difference is greatly magnified as ranges increase, esp with pistol ammunition and ranges. It's similar with standard 5.56 rifle ammo as the bullets are much lighter and more susceptible to wind and gravity. Of course all military ammo (except for Special teams) is FMJ per the Geneva Convention. The same does not apply to departments like the DHS, FBI, LE, etc.

Can manufacturers duplicate HP ballistics with FMJ? Of course they could...to a point. More easily with pistol than rifle as the ranges are much different and the aerodynamics of the projectile affect things even more. It would also probably cost more to do so as it would require stricter quality control and changes to the manufacturing process.

There is differences between familiarization firing, practice, and qualifying. The first is to learn basic operation of the weapon, the second is to perfect aim and techniques, the third is to earn the right to use your weapon as required by your assignment. Since the majority of LE agencies members are NOT gun people, you won't be able to train them to adjust aim. They need to align sights on target and fire.

This last is anecdotal...but I've read more than a few articles about similar circumstances. 10 or so years ago, there were many LE departments (esp here in the Southwest) who would use reloaded ammo or even reload their own for practice. Due in part to liability issues and also to retirement of older gun savvy officers, AFAIK this practice has ceased in most places.

I have been absent from this site for a while...but I hope I have helped your understanding and will try to check back soon for other questions or clarification.

 

[Gunguy45]

To additionally address two points made earlier...

Use of frangible lead free training ammo is often required at indoor ranges. Not knowing if they mean completely lead free or just lead free primers...I can't address anything specific, but on average, 80% of the toxic airborne lead comes from the projectile with about 20% from the lead in the primer. This can be a concern when shooting large amounts indoors, not only to the shooter, but the range personnel who are exposed much more.

No offense to the PFC (thank him for his service), but he is only a PFC and doesn't know all about how things work. Although a certain amount of ammo is allocated for training...there is no difference between what the military shoots in combat and in training...except when they do force on force exercises which may involve blanks and MILES gear or Simunitions. Now....the military has changed the ammunition over the years for newer designs that are more effective (heavier projectile, different construction, etc) and they may use the older stuff primarily for training and issue the newer more effective rounds when deployed. I cannot confirm or deny that as I have been out too long. This may provide some insight http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56x45mm


This occured during one of my training sessions with a young Marine Sargeant. He was describing the M-14 and stated it fired a "boattail hollowpoint"...when I called him on it and stated that was incorrect in lieu of the Geneva Convention, he stated he was an NRA certified gunsmith and knew what he was talking about. Well, the NRA doesn't "certify" gunsmiths, though they do "approve" short term courses offered throughout the country. The 7.62 is a boattail bullet and has somewhat of a hollow base I believe, but is not a hollow point. Just showing that even more senior people can get the info wrong.