Debunked: 9/11: Flight 77 "suspicious" Passenger list

[Jazzy]

I think this is not true as a generalization

It certainly IS.

Bunkum, such as that promoted by Oxymoron, IS dissonant with TRUTH, because it is always UNTRUE. The only minor problem is whether the proposer of the BUNKUM is intentionally or accidentally a LIAR.

Oxymoron, I shall always be "intransigent" when confronted by your terminological inexactitude. I don't really care whether your lying is intentional or not.

It's BUNKUM you consistently promote, and HARM you consistently create.

 

[Oxymoron]

It certainly IS.

Bunkum, such as that promoted by Oxymoron, IS dissonant with TRUTH, because it is always UNTRUE. The only minor problem is whether the proposer of the BUNKUM is intentionally or accidentally a LIAR.

Oxymoron, I shall always be "intransigent" when confronted by your terminological inexactitude. I don't really care whether your lying is intentional or not.

It's BUNKUM you consistently promote, and HARM you consistently create.

Well I guess you can come out with your hate filled diatribe because you are 'on the right side of the fence' on this forum.

It is still hate filled diretripe and of no value other than... oh yes we need to be polite and constructive. I'll leave it there then.

 

[Jazzy]

Well I guess you can come out with your hate filled diatribe because you are 'on the right side of the fence' on this forum.

If you meant "hate filled diatribe", then why did you use "cognitive dissonance"? I was agreeing with you that bunk is cognitively dissonant with truth. And you're coming up with bunk.

You can prove it to be other than bunk just as soon as you demonstrate any facts which back up the assertion that the Flight 77 passenger list was unusual. Did I miss something?

 

[lotek]

http://listverse.com/2011/12/12/10-famous-people-who-avoided-death-on-911/

can we now speculate as to why these people obviously had been tipped off by the government? 2001-now with no seth.. what would america be..

 

[Bmead]

"Odds" again... How come someone always wins the lottery, when the odds against them winning are always so great?

Early morning flights being sparsely-populated and only part-full of go-getters? How likely is that? LOL.

Numbers, millions play the lottery, not to mention only 1 person wins usually, and often no one does. How comes, when it comes to 9/11, someone bought ten tickets and every single ticket won the same jackpot even though they were different numbers?

 

[Mick West]

Numbers, millions play the lottery, not to mention only 1 person wins usually, and often no one does. How comes, when it comes to 9/11, someone bought ten tickets and every single ticket won the same jackpot even though they were different numbers?

They didn't though, as has been explained very well in the previous 285 posts. The passenger list is just the type of list you would expect for that flight.

 

[JRBids]

Numbers, millions play the lottery, not to mention only 1 person wins usually, and often no one does. How comes, when it comes to 9/11, someone bought ten tickets and every single ticket won the same jackpot even though they were different numbers?

What does that mean?

 

[Bmead]

What does that mean?

What it means is, probably this will be met as a ramble but i'll explain anyway. AA11 shared al suqami-visa expired-mohammed atta-visa expired-al-omari no passport, atta who was told to cia by mossad was among 19 seeking to attack america. Ong does not say where the men were the ground control tells her, sweeney does not id 5 men she id's 3 and 2 of which in the wrong seat. The cockpit is barely sufficient for 4 men let alone the 7 that must by inference from details provided, have been there. The handcuffed attendants were not mentioned by any attendant and as some were dead already, there is a good chance it was the ones who made the calls.
Atta was singled out by able danger. The planes fuel load was calculated by the ground as it was heading for wtc, yet it has never been released. The exact timings of when fl 93 crashed has had numerous details released giving 7 minutes variation

This is SOME but not all. Now the likelihood on person with a expired visa gets on? but 2, and someone with NO passport?
The pure coincidence that hijack scenrios were being played out that day?
The fact that no one could link these people to anything yet in 45 minutes 19 men are linked and known?

Now these are unlikely occurences that outside 9/11 we would be amazed at. But on 9/11 these outside odds turn up trumps.
THAT is what i mean. As debunkers you say odds are irrelevant, only facts.
But in the world odds and chance are there. And if you saw a person buy ten tickets to lotteries and win every jackpot, you would be stunned, but if you saw a person buy ten lucky dip tickets and they all were matching numbers and then won the same jackpot, you would scarcely believe it.
But rather than go-wow that IS against the odds. It is just par for the course.
I think, strange chance of that happening dig a bit deeper.

 

[nanotchi]

I think "jackpot" isn't the right word to use in this situation.

You know, this happened before 9/11, when airport security became tighter.. o3o;

 

[Jazzy]

What it means is, probably this will be met as a ramble but i'll explain anyway. AA11 shared al suqami-visa expired-mohammed atta-visa expired-al-omari no passport, atta who was told to cia by mossad was among 19 seeking to attack america. Atta was singled out by able danger.

OBL's plan allowed for prior knowledge by the security services.

Ong does not say where the men were the ground control tells her, sweeney does not id 5 men she id's 3 and 2 of which in the wrong seat.

That's a combination of the fog of war and witness unreliability.

The cockpit is barely sufficient for 4 men let alone the 7 that must by inference from details provided, have been there. The handcuffed attendants were not mentioned by any attendant and as some were dead already, there is a good chance it was the ones who made the calls.

So?

The planes fuel load was calculated by the ground as it was heading for wtc, yet it has never been released. The exact timings of when fl 93 crashed has had numerous details released giving 7 minutes variation.

There seems little point in knowing the fuel load. The radar plot will give you the timings.

Now the likelihood on person with a expired visa gets on? but 2, and someone with NO passport?

Some for the first. None for the latter. Perhaps it was completely destroyed.

The pure coincidence that hijack scenrios were being played out that day?

Is probably no coincidence at all. OBL would know about it, as he and his contacts frequented military circles.

The fact that no one could link these people to anything yet in 45 minutes 19 men are linked and known?

That's the job of security services. How many people at that time were working actively against American interests? Thousands.

Now these are unlikely occurences that outside 9/11 we would be amazed at. But on 9/11 these outside odds turn up trumps. THAT is what i mean. As debunkers you say odds are irrelevant, only facts. But in the world odds and chance are there. And if you saw a person buy ten tickets to lotteries and win every jackpot, you would be stunned, but if you saw a person buy ten lucky dip tickets and they all were matching numbers and then won the same jackpot, you would scarcely believe it. But rather than go-wow that IS against the odds. It is just par for the course. I think, strange chance of that happening dig a bit deeper.

Coincidences occur all the time. Most aren't noticed, because the coincidences are trivial.

As soon as people join to enter a plane, many coincidences are bound to occur. They are fit, can all afford the ticket, they are arriving/leaving the place they live in/work in, etc., etc...

 

[Bmead]

Lets begin with coincidences occur all the time, yes indeed they do-But to a degree, and we are amazed at them not blase'
If you walk to work find a $50 note on the way, get to work and are about to say that to a colleague and both say that, you will not turn around and go "cool" and that's it. You will probably be incredulous that not only did you BOTH find $50 but you both said it at the same time to each other.
Yet your response to such coincidences (and coincidence is NOT necessarily the defying of unlikely odds) is "yea cool" no amazement.
They were fit and can buy a ticket?
ATTA-EXPIRED VISA
ATTA-ON WATCHLIST
AL-OMARI NO PASSPORT
SUQAMI-EXPIRED VISA

This is prior to the lack of need for Omari/Atta to have gone to Portland, and NO ensuring they got on is a false assumption given they A) Got checked and B) Failed to tell every other hijacker to.

This is not a "coincidence" this is pre 9/11 you would be saying how the hell could that be?

That's the job of the security services?
IT WASN'T the security services that linked the names, it was the FAA. And you just tell me 1000's work for security- yet despite a warning over 19 men by Mossad, despite expired visas, despite the wires and box cutters and mace (wires as inferred from the "bomb because they showed me it i saw the wires" statement)
Yet all the thousands all the computers cannot link them before?

OBL KNEW OF HIJACK SCENARIOS?
PLEASE...He cannot because even the public did not years later. So feel free to suggest Bin Laden knew, that is ipso facto proof of insider help. I have not made such a claim, if you do, you just added a bloody massive point to conspiracy theorists

THERE IS point knowing fuel loads for two very important reasons
1) Range, if as many suspect, planes were substituted, then what would be the implications of the fuel loads demonstrating the planes physically could NOT get to the WTC?
2) If the fuel was nearly empty, there is precious little to use as an accelerant ergo the max fire temperatures are never going to exceed normal office fires

SO?
Well as we are told the pilots at least J.O was alive almost to the last minutes, would he willingly slam into a building? So he needs to battle to turn the plane away (no indication by FAA or anyone) then they must kill him and seize the controls in good time to be on target. NOT possible in a 7 man cockpit and if you wish to look for cockpit dimensions and work that out, go ahead.

So what if the callers were cuffed?
Well it is a MASSIVE ommitted detail in the calls, be it them or anyone. And added to other "fog of war" aspects, calls into question their entire narrative

 

[Bmead]

Oh and fyi-The NO passport, it was in Attas bags conveniently never loaded onto the plane. That just luckily had his flight manuals and stuff in and will. You know how you write a will to take on the plane you intend to destroy. And how the hell he flew without his manuals????
But that aside, if as we know, they got a second check, how omari boarded without his passport i would like a sensible explanation for

 

[Jazzy]

Lets begin with coincidences occur all the time, yes indeed they do-But to a degree, and we are amazed at them not blasé'

There are seven billion of us each living a separate life.

If you walk to work find a $50 note

I have no desire for your manufactured scenario, here.

ATTA-EXPIRED VISA ATTA-ON WATCHLIST AL-OMARI NO PASSPORT SUQAMI-EXPIRED VISA

All acceptable degrees of bureaucratic inefficiency. Nobody's perfect, and who's to know when something's going down?

This is prior to the lack of need for Omari/Atta to have gone to Portland, and NO ensuring they got on is a false assumption given they A) Got checked and B) Failed to tell every other hijacker to. This is not a "coincidence" this is pre 9/11 you would be saying how the hell could that be?

I cannot follow that. Restate it.

That's the job of the security services? IT WASN'T the security services that linked the names, it was the FAA. And you just tell me 1000's work for security - yet despite a warning over 19 men by Mossad, despite expired visas, despite the wires and box cutters and mace (wires as inferred from the "bomb because they showed me it i saw the wires" statement) Yet all the thousands all the computers cannot link them before?

I didn't "just tell" you "1000's work for security". I wouldn't, because it doesn't make sense. If you believe that such an operation could be identified in that time, then YOU don't make sense.

OBL KNEW OF HIJACK SCENARIOS? PLEASE...He cannot because even the public did not years later. So feel free to suggest Bin Laden knew, that is ipso facto proof of insider help. I have not made such a claim, if you do, you just added a bloody massive point to conspiracy theorists.

He was definitely one of only five people who knew what the plan was. OBL was a part-insider. He was an engineer and a close confidante of Pentagon circles. He knew how to plan a terrorist operation, and had the experience. He knew about US military maneuvers in advance.

THERE IS point knowing fuel loads for two very important reasons 1) Range, if as many suspect, planes were substituted, then what would be the implications of the fuel loads demonstrating the planes physically could NOT get to the WTC? 2) If the fuel was nearly empty, there is precious little to use as an accelerant ergo the max fire temperatures are never going to exceed normal office fires

They were obviously neither empty nor fully-fuelled-up. Just as if they were ordinary internal flights.

SO? Well as we are told the pilots at least J.O was alive almost to the last minutes, would he willingly slam into a building? So he needs to battle to turn the plane away (no indication by FAA or anyone) then they must kill him and seize the controls in good time to be on target. NOT possible in a 7 man cockpit and if you wish to look for cockpit dimensions and work that out, go ahead.

You are told.

So what if the callers were cuffed? Well it is a MASSIVE ommitted detail in the calls, be it them or anyone. And added to other "fog of war" aspects, calls into question their entire narrative

Does it?

Oh and fyi-The NO passport, it was in Attas bags conveniently never loaded onto the plane. That just luckily had his flight manuals and stuff in and will. You know how you write a will to take on the plane you intend to destroy. And how the hell he flew without his manuals? But that aside, if as we know, they got a second check, how omari boarded without his passport i would like a sensible explanation for

An internal flight? Of which he had done similar before?

You must get out more. OBL's plan worked because the actions of his team always beat the response time of their watchers. He got done in two hours what it took the security services three hours to discover. Success...

 

[Josh Heuer]

You must get out more. OBL's plan worked because the actions of his team always beat the response time of their watchers. He got done in two hours what it took the security services three hours to discover. Success...

What? What's your source on that? Which security services specifically are you referring?

 

[Jazzy]

What? What's your source on that? Which security services specifically are you referring?

Hi, Mr. Keen.

It's old stuff, not on my present computer. Videos and several blogs. One "flight training team" in question was under constant surveillance (I think by an FBI team), which was broken by the terrorist team leaving via the back during a surveillance shift change. The service was then unaware of their whereabouts until after they were aboard their flights.

I can't back this up. I'm just telling you what I remember.

Up to that point in time, no hijacker had ever flown a plane into a building (although I know it had been vaunted in several official scenarios) so nothing prevented them from completing their particular scenario - except in the case of Flight 77.

(Would you have rushed them, knowing it would lead to your certain death? Sucks teeth…)

 

[Josh Heuer]

Hi, Mr. Keen.

It's old stuff, not on my present computer. Videos and several blogs. One "flight training team" in question was under constant surveillance (I think by an FBI team), which was broken by the terrorist team leaving via the back during a surveillance shift change. The service was then unaware of their whereabouts until after they were aboard their flights.

I can't back this up. I'm just telling you what I remember.

Up to that point in time, no hijacker had ever flown a plane into a building (although I know it had been vaunted in several official scenarios) so nothing prevented them from completing their particular scenario - except in the case of Flight 77.

(Would you have rushed them, knowing it would lead to your certain death? Sucks teeth…)

Ohh ok...no source on that, just your memory of "old stuff"
That's ok. I wasn't expecting you to verify your claims.
Good day sir.

 

[nanotchi]

lel passive aggressive josh lol

 

[Bmead]

There are seven billion of us each living a separate life.
And? That is not a relevant statistic to anything, what IS relevant is not casual coincidence, but improbable coincidence, among 7bn, that may happen a lot, but it does neither reduce the probability of an incident that is unlikely happening, it also is not applicable to 19 people and the vast resources arrayed AGAINST them. If we take JUST the hijackers on AA11 from visa application through to boarding, through to mace and boxcutters, through to the mossad warnings,
We are talking not 1 coincidence not 2, not 3 not 4 not 5 not 6 but more than 10 lucky breaks,or coincidences
This just does not happen as you yourself said before -

ME: "Now the likelihood on person with a expired visa gets on? but 2, and someone with NO passport?
YOU: Some for the first. None for the latter. Perhaps it was completely destroyed."

I have no desire for your manufactured scenario, here.Well of course not, because the chances of finding $50 is actually greater than the chance of two visa expirees and a man with no passport, getting on a flight (the same flight) If you acknowledge the scenario you acknowledge probabilities, if you do that you acknowledge the unlikeliness of such and how amazed you would be at one must imply you see the point of amazement in the 2nd. If you close your eyes to both you can't see either

All acceptable degrees of bureaucratic inefficiency. Nobody's perfect, and who's to know when something's going down?Whereas we saw earlier you doubt it possible anyone got on with no passport, now it is acceptable inefficiency (as far as "acceptable" you OVB's have made NO complaint that the inefficiency caused the death and destruction but NO ONE involved got sacked or demoted or disciplined, in fact many got promotions)
But inefficiency and not knowing do not count, you yourself claimed 1000's of people being efficient tracked the 19 so quickly, yet the same 1000's were so rubbish that them, plus the visa office, plus the police who arrested Atta, plus the computer systems, plus Mossad, plus Able danger, Plus FBI who,if you deny Sibel Edmonds (hard to do in light of under oath statements and her being gagged 2x) all failed just by "coincidence" and bureaucratic inefficiency across MULTIPLE agencies.

I cannot follow that. Restate it.What i was saying is that people outside of the 9/11 spectrum would be puzzled why Atta and Omari went to Portland as there was no explicable reason.
In case you suggest that it was to board easily at one airport and not be checked on another flight,
1) They still had to be checked on the first flight
2) They supposedly did their research and this would be denied by the fact Atta supposedly got angry at the second check saying he was told there would be no need, indicating he had done minimal research
3) No other hijacker was told to do this
4) Because it needs 0 research to know about natural crashes and delays, and knowing his visa was expired, he was deliberately exposing himself to discovery 2x by 2 different airlines, which doubles the "bureaucratic inefficiencies" multiplying the luck and improbability

I didn't "just tell" you "1000's work for security". I wouldn't, because it doesn't make sense. If you believe that such an operation could be identified in that time, then YOU don't make sense.Actually 1000s DO work for security and intelligence and as we are told Mossad and the Able Danger op identified it then yes it could, and the supposed admission by OBL which said he considered the twin towers when he was in beirut seeing those towers come down, (back in the late 80s) After 93' with PROVEN fbi involvement, they would be extra watchful of attacks (do not even bother with the evasive they could never imagine this scenario it is patently false)
But the hijackers spent months in the country and the plan went beyond that, they didnt just lucky dip for suiciders (some like Cheney suggest they did not know the mission till the day, is BS because they need people who know what and how to be sure they will do it not fight or give up when they know what it is)
This means there were months and months to unravel via warnings and plannings, the phoenix memo and Moussaoui trial proves that had they opened his computer the whole plot would be discovered and ended.

He was definitely one of only five people who knew what the plan was. OBL was a part-insider. He was an engineer and a close confidante of Pentagon circles. He knew how to plan a terrorist operation, and had the experience. He knew about US military maneuvers in advance.He can only be on the inside if the rumours of being a cia asset are true, and can only know exercises planned if someone on the inside knew them, even participants are not told what will be the exact scenarios, only the senior levels so as to ensure the training and preparation in a live situation is transferrable. You cannot find flaws or make improvements if the operational elements are told what to do and what is happening prior to every exercise. So they don't. This keeps them adaptable and able to respond fast and efficiently
Therefore if OBL knew senior members of the miltary or intelligence groups, those people were a part of the higher levels inside the pentgon and government ergo we PROVE insider assistance in just that statement
They were obviously neither empty nor fully-fuelled-up. Just as if they were ordinary internal flights.Ok so how much did leak inside the towers, how far was the range?

You are told.No not just i, do a bit of research, the OFFICIAL LIE tells us this, if true then you think to suggest a pilot at the front in the cockpit can see less than a Flight attendant at the rear of the plane? Do not even try such ridiculousness, if the pilot was dead, the official version has yet another flaw (how many do YOU allow before it is a pack of lies?) if he was alive then you think he would slam into buildings willingly? he was a war vet, he would have fought and lunged the plane to the river if no where else

Does it?Yes it does, because if the errors they made are not one but 3,4,5,6 AND they were the cuffed ones yet they just forgot to say, oh by the way they have us cuffed. It is unlikely they would BOTH neglect that if it was them or they knew any person had been. So it obviously calls into question whether the transcripts are correct. Especially when one of them thought she was on flight 12 and has to be asked four times before being able to get it right.

An internal flight? Of which he had done similar before?
He had gone with no passport twice? Well sorry but i have done connecting flights and there is not guarantee a person has not just entered the airport there, and protocol REQUIRES the same security for EVERYONE. Just showing a ticket saying i was on a flight that just came in, is NOT allowed as id is STILL required

You must get out more. OBL's plan worked because it always beat the response time of his watchers. He got done in two hours what it took the security services three hours to discover. Success...
No, actually the security services already knew, the faa linked the names in 45 minutes and the security could never do it all in 3 hours if they didnt already know who they were because just saying arab names is not court admissible nor even proof it was not hamas or hezbollah or any other group. To say within 3 hours AL QAEDA and we can prove it, means they KNEW not just who they were but could link each to persons of terrorist connections which is impossible to do unless they already know those connections. The official lie requires non terror linked persons explicitly so they COULD evade notice. Therefore the speed if actually 3 hours, once again proves insider knowledge because it proves they had to be in the security systems data banks already linked not just to one terrorist, but more than one and with provable links to each other.
At the time ONLY that would provide legal justification for conviction or attack.

 

[Mick West]

Let's stick to the passenger list please. New topics in new threads.

 

[Bmead]

Let's stick to the passenger list please. New topics in new threads.

Sorry i got carried away responding there and forget that was this thread

 

[Bmead]

Perhaps, as this IS about the passenger lists, it can be verified if a actual list has been declassified. As it is my understanding the names and graphics presented to us are the media mock ups based on what they were told, NOT the actual passenger manifests/itinerary

 

[Josh Heuer]

You know, history commons gives a very good picture of how things played out that day.
Pretty well sourced. If a link doesn't work, archive.org can be your friend.

 

[Jazzy]

Ohh ok...no source on that, just your memory of "old stuff" That's ok. I wasn't expecting you to verify your claims. Good day sir

Next time I won't tip you the wink. Good day to you.

but improbable coincidence

That would be according to someone with judgement.

the chances

I have no desire for your manufactured scenario, here. It makes no valid point concerned with real-time events.

you yourself claimed 1000's of people being efficient tracked the 19 so quickly

No I did not.

people outside of the 9/11 spectrum would be puzzled why Atta and Omari went to Portland

It didn't matter, did it? It still doesn't matter, does it?

Actually 1000s DO work for security and intelligence

But the number of people with the slightest inkling probably numbered less than a dozen.

This means there were months and months to unravel

Unravel what?

ergo we PROVE insider assistance

No. Only OBL's successful intelligence.

Ok so how much - how far?

Enough.

You are told. No not just i

You are told. Anyone with a modicum of practice could fly those planes once they were set to climb to cruise.

one of them thought she was on flight 12 and has to be asked four times before being able to get it right.

And I'm sure you'd do fine with a gun to your head. (Figuratively speaking).

i have done connecting flights

Pre 2001?

the security services already knew

Which was why they were so successful.

Flight 93 must be a puzzle for you. Keep it to yourself. Whoops I said 77.

 

[Bmead]

I do use that, the trouble is you get so many pieces of info flying around

Next time I won't tip you the wink. Good day to you.


That would be according to someone with judgement.


I have no desire for your manufactured scenario, here. It makes no valid point concerned with real-time events.


No I did not.


It didn't matter, did it? It still doesn't matter, does it?


But the number of people with the slightest inkling probably numbered less than a dozen.


Unravel what?


No. Only OBL's successful intelligence.


Enough.


You are told. Anyone with a modicum of practice could fly those planes once they were set to climb to cruise.


And I'm sure you'd do fine with a gun to your head. (Figuratively speaking).


Pre 2001?


Which was why they were so successful.

Flight 77 must be a puzzle for you. Keep it to yourself.

[...] but please anyone with a modicum of practice fly those planes? Get real, it takes ages to even be allowed NEAR that sort of plane. aND YOU did SAY 1000'S AND OBL's intelligence could ONLY come from INSIDE the military and government. If anyone else wants to back this lunacy PLEASE do. It is off thread so i shall say no more except to request you do back him because this is the best debunking i ever saw LMAO ty

 

[MikeC]

[...] but please anyone with a modicum of practice fly those planes? Get real, it takes ages to even be allowed NEAR that sort of plane.

Who said anything about them having been near them? they trained in the normal manner, and that was plenty.

Heck I've never had a formal lesson flying, and I would be fairly confident of being able to handle one in gentle manouvres

aND YOU did SAY 1000'S AND OBL's intelligence could ONLY come from INSIDE the military and government.

I missed that - where did he say that?

If anyone else wants to back this lunacy PLEASE do. It is off thread so i shall say no more except to request you do back him because this is the best debunking i ever saw LMAO ty

Happy to do so - although this debunking isn't all that flash, since the material being offered is weaker than most.

 

[Bmead]

Who said anything about them having been near them? they trained in the normal manner, and that was plenty.

Heck I've never had a formal lesson flying, and I would be fairly confident of being able to handle one in gentle manouvres




I missed that - where did he say that?



Happy to do so - although this debunking isn't all that flash, since the material being offered is weaker than most.

If you think you can handle one having never flown, i will just let you say so. I suppose that will be backed by the proof that pilots choose a plane are given a few hours and off they go. I know something about flying. This applies to the uk though, perhaps USA are just outright mad and dangerous but anyway
In the uk you have to start on small light aircraft, then you MUST log a minimum of flight hours for your licence one hour less and you are not licensed and not consider able. Only then can you move on to other craft

The total time they spent flying would not qualify them for a light aircraft and that is a seperate thread, but i doubt we would have trouble demonstrating that

As for the 1000's i misread his statement on that- however it actually is true-there ARE 1000's working for america


To the other points
ME the security services already knew
HIM Which was why they were so successful.

If they knew then they failed to stop it which is deliberate allowing it to happen

HIM He was definitely one of only five people who knew what the plan was. OBL was a part-insider. He was an engineer and a close confidante of Pentagon circles. He knew how to plan a terrorist operation, and had the experience. He knew about US military maneuvers in advance.

The initial aspect suggests bad planning because it does not account for changes of heart which can happen and have happened. Forget that, the second part says clearly OBL was an insider part is not a definable point, if he was in he was in, if he had information it could not come from the pilots of the planes or their direct CO it came from higher up

The info of Security services DID know, and OBL had inside info
basically says it was an inside job

OBL was also supposedly allowing for security services to be aware of the plan?
This says one thing that it would be allowed to happen

There is no wriggle room here, if you back such statements then you simply admit military and government complicity. And i need say no more. There is no twisting these statements and like i am demanded, show proof of any wriggle statement like oh he heard from xxx who heard from xxx
Which still HAS to come from INSIDE military and intelligence sources
There is no if or but that is a FACT
I do not assert this as i cannot substantiate such a claim solidly enough right now, if you all think you can, then congrats, you just categorically proved US military and Government knew the attacks were coming and not only didn't stop them, but let them happen and helped to ensure they did.

 

[Landru]

If you think you can handle one having never flown, i will just let you say so. I suppose that will be backed by the proof that pilots choose a plane are given a few hours and off they go. I know something about flying. This applies to the uk though, perhaps USA are just outright mad and dangerous but anyway
In the uk you have to start on small light aircraft, then you MUST log a minimum of flight hours for your licence one hour less and you are not licensed and not consider able. Only then can you move on to other craft

The total time they spent flying would not qualify them for a light aircraft and that is a seperate thread, but i doubt we would have trouble demonstrating that

As for the 1000's i misread his statement on that- however it actually is true-there ARE 1000's working for america


To the other points
ME the security services already knew
HIM Which was why they were so successful.

If they knew then they failed to stop it which is deliberate allowing it to happen

HIM He was definitely one of only five people who knew what the plan was. OBL was a part-insider. He was an engineer and a close confidante of Pentagon circles. He knew how to plan a terrorist operation, and had the experience. He knew about US military maneuvers in advance.

The initial aspect suggests bad planning because it does not account for changes of heart which can happen and have happened. Forget that, the second part says clearly OBL was an insider part is not a definable point, if he was in he was in, if he had information it could not come from the pilots of the planes or their direct CO it came from higher up

[...]

You make make a lot of claims (most of them off topic to this thread) Could you back up one of your claims (in a different thread)? Namely that OBL was a close confidante of Pentagon circles. I take it he didn't know pentagon triangles or squares.

 

[MikeC]

If you think you can handle one having never flown, i will just let you say so. I suppose that will be backed by the proof that pilots choose a plane are given a few hours and off they go.

you suppose a lot of things - and in this case you are wrong....again!

I know something about flying. This applies to the uk though, perhaps USA are just outright mad and dangerous but anyway
In the uk you have to start on small light aircraft, then you MUST log a minimum of flight hours for your licence one hour less and you are not licensed and not consider able. Only then can you move on to other craft

The total time they spent flying would not qualify them for a light aircraft

completely wrong - they all had pilot's licences - at least one of them had a commercial licence (200 hrs required IIRC)

and that is a separate thread, but i doubt we would have trouble demonstrating that

I doubt you know anything about this topic at all - Atta and Shehhi had attended the accelerated pilot training programme at Huffman Aviation and both had instrument flight ratings, plus had trained on sims and at other schools ad multi engine training. Atta had a commercial licence. Ziad Jarrah took flight training from a different school also based in Venice.

On December 29 and 30, Atta and Marwan went to the Opa-locka Airport where they practiced on a Boeing 727 simulator, and they obtained Boeing 767 simulator training from Pan Am International on December 31. Atta purchased flight deck videos for Boeing 747–200, Boeing 757–200, Airbus A320 and Boeing 767-300ER models via mail-order from Sporty's Pilot Shop in Batavia, Ohio in November and December 2000.[16]

-
-Ata's wiki page

From shehhi's page:

al-Shehhi was the first of the Hamburg group to leave for the United States. He arrived in Newark, New Jersey on May 29, 2000. Mohamed Atta joined him the next month, and the two began to search for flight schools. al-Shehhi posed as a body guard of Atta, who was also posing as a "Saudi Arabian royal family member" while the two of them took flying lessons in Venice, Florida. They also logged hundreds of hours on a Boeing 727 flight simulator. They received their licenses by December 2000.

From Jarrah's page:

Jarrah was enrolled in flight school for six months, from June 2000 to January 15, 2001. At the flight school, many of his classmates remember him fondly, describing him as kind and trustworthy, and remember him drinking beer occasionally.[9] Jarrah was unique among the hijackers in that he did not live with any other hijackers, but rather lived with a German student named Thorsten Biermann. Biermann did not observe Jarrah acting particularly religiously or overtly politically. Jarrah occasionally flew back to Germany to visit his Turkish-German girlfriend, and called or e-mailed her nearly every day.
Jarrah had obtained his license to fly small planes in August 2000, and began training to fly large jets late that year.[

did you do any actual research into how much training they had done??

 

[Bmead]

Oh videos- that proves it then
And the pilots are they not the ones with multiple id's suspected to have trained at us bases?
And Atta needed flight manuals too?
Sorry but i think these qualified pilots are not trained enough or they wont be taking lessons will they
And they are not even provable as all the same person=Jarrah for a start has different claims to if the hijacker an he were the same one

 

[Landru]

Oh videos- that proves it then
And the pilots are they not the ones with multiple id's suspected to have trained at us bases?
And Atta needed flight manuals too?
Sorry but i think these qualified pilots are not trained enough or they wont be taking lessons will they
And they are not even provable as all the same person=Jarrah for a start has different claims to if the hijacker an he were the same one

Off topic and zero evidence provided.

 

[Bmead]

And citing Jarrah source as beer drinking? Mmm that tallies with the devout suicidal Muslim doesn't it. How many ways round do we want this, he came to kill but acted non Muslim defied sharia and then just went ahead and changed overnight. Well click click it all makes sense now

I admit i do not know all the pilot details but it is not just like a few hours here and there as you so demonstrate by citing hundreds of flight hours
And if you want huffman as a source can we take ALL they say as gospel?

 

[Bmead]

Off topic and zero evidence provided.

As opposed to the multi off topic posts i got hit with WHERE is the bin ladens inner circle proof then?

 

[Landru]

Oh videos- that proves it then
And the pilots are they not the ones with multiple id's suspected to have trained at us bases?
And Atta needed flight manuals too?
Sorry but i think these qualified pilots are not trained enough or they wont be taking lessons will they
And they are not even provable as all the same person=Jarrah for a start has different claims to if the hijacker an he were the same one

Off topic and zero evidence provided.

As opposed to the multi off topic posts i got hit with WHERE is the bin ladens inner circle proof then?

So you do not want to support your claims with proof? Start a new thread with "And the pilots are they not the ones with multiple id's suspected to have trained at us bases?" and provide evidence.

 

[Landru]

Still waiting for the thread with evidence on "OBL was a close confidante of Pentagon circles."

 

[Bmead]

Still waiting for the thread with evidence on "OBL was a close confidante of Pentagon circles."

Good cos i never said it your side did

 

[MikeC]

Oh videos- that proves it then
And the pilots are they not the ones with multiple id's suspected to have trained at us bases?
And Atta needed flight manuals too?

And so what?

Sorry but i think these qualified pilots are not trained enough or they wont be taking lessons will they

lol - before you complained that they hadn't even qualified to fly light aircraft. Now that is shown to be ignorance on your part you claim that because they are taking lessons therefore they don't know enough to fly?

given that you do not actually bother doing any research before making your gish gallops why should anyone pay any attention to what you think at all any more??

And they are not even provable as all the same person=Jarrah for a start has different claims to if the hijacker an he were the same one

I thought English was your first language? could you please rewrite that so it makes some sense??

I think you are trying to suggest that the identify of the hijackers is not actually certain? If so that is just ignorant nonsense. the identities were known very soon after the event, and it was only some news media and loony conspiracies thought otherwise.

I think you should stop posting about things that you clearly don't actually have any knowledge or information about at all - which means all of 9/11 for starters!! Leave it to the "big boys" - there are various websites that do a much better job of trying to foist "truther" hoaxes on the public than your rather poor efforts here!

 

[MikeC]

There is no wriggle room here, if you back such statements then you simply admit military and government complicity. And i need say no more. There is no twisting these statements and like i am demanded, show proof of any wriggle statement like oh he heard from xxx who heard from xxx
Which still HAS to come from INSIDE military and intelligence sources
There is no if or but that is a FACT

It's not fact - it is just unintelligible gobbledy gook!

 

[Bmead]

1) I said i do not know ALL details not that i did no research
2) I admitted a fault
3) I know plenty and your big boys are telling us all Bin Laden factored in security services knowing
Bin Laden had inside help
And i do not need to do research, you might request proof from truthers not yourself but then Atta and others were linked to US military bases
There was info about 2 different Jarrahs and your own little "proof" distinctly creates a total opposite to a Muslim extremist
So be a big boy and insult i know plenty and your welcome to insult as much as you wish, it is hardly insult when you have backed up a person who said 9/11 was an inside job

 

[Landru]

Still waiting for the thread with evidence on "OBL was a close confidante of Pentagon circles."

Good cos i never said it your side did

Where? Any evidence? Ever?

 

[Bmead]

It's not fact - it is just unintelligible gobbledy gook!

Great it was YOUR debunkers sides that said the gobbeldy gook that IS fact
and also FACT is that if the suggestions are true, then it is self proving. If OBL had inside help it was inside help how many languages need i put that in ?
It was not me who said it so get the bare facts straight before being a big boy